A. Scott Piraino
The United states has two armies. Today we take this for granted, and don’t question the reasons for funding both the United States Army, and the United states Marine Corps. But it wasn’t always this way.
There were no Marines in the Continental Army that won the Revolutionary War. During the Civil War, Congress authorized less than 3,200 men for the Marine Corps, this while the Union Armies totaled nearly one million men. The fact is, for most of their history the United States Marine Corps was little more than a security force for the Navy.
The myth of the Marine Corps as a second army began in WW I. When the United states entered the war in 1917, over two million U.S. Army soldiers were deployed to France along with one brigade of marines, about ten thousand strong. Despite being a tiny fraction of the American forces fighting in WW I, the Marines managed to make a name for themselves at the U.S. Army’s expense.
General Pershing, the Commander of all U.S. Forces in France, had ordered a news blackout that prevented reporters from mentioning specific units in their dispatches. The purpose of the order was obvious; to prevent German intelligence from learning about American troop movements. But one reporter circumvented the order, a war correspondent for the Chicago Tribune named Floyd Gibbons.
After Mr. Gibbons was severely wounded at the battle of Belleau Wood, the press corps passed on his dispatches without the approval of Army censors. The result was a storm of press coverage in the US claiming that the Huns were being defeated with “the Help of God and a few Marines”. No mention was made of the thousands of Army soldiers who were fighting and dying with equal valor.
Floyd Gibbons made no secret of his “friendship and admiration for the U.S. Marines”. There is no proof that his writings created the mythology of the Marine Corps, but we do know he wrote a biography of Baron von Richthofen, more popularly known as the Red Baron. His description of the German aviator reads as propaganda, not journalism, and his other works were probably embellished as well.
Today all Marines in basic training are taught that German soldiers in WW I referred to them as “Devil Dogs”. H.L. Mencken, an American writing in 1921, clearly states that; “The Germans, during the war, had no opprobrious nicknames for their foes…Teufelhunde (devil-dogs), for the American marines, was invented by an American correspondent; the Germans never used it.”
In addition, there is the legend of “Bulldog Fountain”, where the U.S. Marine’s mascot originated. This fountain is located in the village of Belleau, not the wood of the same name. Although the Marines fought in Belleau Wood, the US Army’s 26th division liberated the village, three weeks after the Marines had left the area.
There is no documented evidence that Germans ever referred to Marines as “Devil dogs”, and the Marines never captured the village of Belleau with its “Bulldog Fountain”. It is not clear exactly where these stories come from, but their source is most likely Floyd Gibbons. Perhaps the Marines knew this, because they made him an honorary Marine posthumously in 1941.
Floyd Gibbons helped enhance the image of the Marines, but the United States Marine Corps as we know it today came of age in WW II. Most Americans believe that the Marine Corps won the war in the Pacific, while the US Army fought in Europe. In fact our Pacific operations were hampered by a conflict between the Army and the Navy, that split the theatre in two.
The Navy adamantly refused to place their fleet, (and their Marines), under the command of the Army. After five weeks of bureaucratic wrangling, General MacArthur was given command of the Southwest Pacific theatre, while Admiral Nimitz had jurisdiction over the remainder of the Pacific ocean. The result, in Macarthur’s own words, was a “divided effort, the… duplication of force (and) undue extension of the war with added casualties and cost”.
The US Army fought the main force of the Japanese Imperial Army in New Guinea and the Philippines. The Navy and Marines carried out an “island hopping” strategy that involved amphibious assaults on islands such as Guadalcanal and Saipan. General Macarthur complained bitterly to the President that “these frontal attacks by the Navy, as at Tarawa, are tragic and unnecessary massacres of American lives“.
By way of comparison, General Macarthur’s Army killed, captured, or stranded over a quarter of a million Japanese troops during the New Guinea campaign, at a cost of only 33,000 US casualties. The Navy and Marines suffered over 28,000 casualties to kill roughly 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima. Even then, the Army played a greater role than Marines like to admit; the Army had more divisions assaulting Okinawa than the Marines.
The famous image of Marines raising the US flag on Mount Suribachi is actually a photograph of the second, staged flag-raising ceremony. The Marines raised the flag a second time to replace the original, smaller flag, and to provide the press corps with a better photo opportunity. That photograph has become one of the most enduring images of WW II, and served as the model for the Marine Corps Memorial statue.
The Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal, was on Iwo Jima that morning in 1945, and when he saw the Stars and Stripes go up he declared; ‘The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years!”
In fact the Marine Corps was nearly legislated out of existence two years later. After the bureaucratic infighting that characterized inter-service relations during WW II, there was a strong desire among military professionals to unify the military commands. President Truman agreed, and in 1946 his administration proposed a bill to unify the separate service bureaucracies.
Having one budgetary authority for the Armed Forces, and one chain of command each for land forces, ships, and aircraft makes sense. But this would have placed the US Navy at a distinct disadvantage. The Navy had their own air wings aboard their carriers, and their own army, the Marine Corps.
The Navy and Marine Corps were determined to scuttle this legislation. Marine generals created a secret office code named the Chowder Society to lobby behind the scenes, (in opposition to their President and Commander in Chief), and thwart the unification bill before Congress. The Commandant of the Marine Corps even made an impassioned speech before Congress to plead for his separate service.
It worked. Congress rejected the Truman administration’s unification bill, and instead passed the National Security Act of 1947. This Act guaranteed separate services, with their own independent budgets, and was a victory for the Navy and Marine Corps.
In addition, the Marines succeeded in having their separate force structure written into the language of the legislation. It is very unusual for Congress to dictate the actual composition of a military service. Yet the National Security Act mandates that the Marines Corps must maintain “not less than three combat divisions and three aircraft wings and such land combat, aviation, and other services as necessary to support them“.
President Truman was furious, and military professionals were appalled. General Eisenhower characterized the Marines as “being so unsure of their value to their country that they insisted on writing into the law a complete set of rules and specifications for their future operations and duties. Such freezing of detail…is silly, even vicious.”
The war between the Army and Marines would get more vicious in Korea. On November 27th, 1950 a division of Marines 25,000 strong, was ordered to proceed along the west side of the Chosin reservoir, while a much smaller task force of 2500 Army troops went up the eastern side. Waiting for them were 120,000 troops of the Chinese Communist 9th Army Group.
The Army soldiers fought a running battle for three days against a Chinese force eight times their size, in temperatures as low as minus 35 degrees. Despite the death of two commanding officers, the task force lumbered south with over 600 dead and wounded soldiers loaded into trucks, fought through repeated ambushes, and was even mistakenly bombed by US Marine aircraft. Finally, just four miles from safety, the convoy was cut off by the Chinese and annihilated.
385 men made it to the safety of American lines by crossing the frozen Chosin Reservoir.
The First Marine Division, with the help of allied air power, managed to fight their way out of the Chinese encirclement. Marines claimed that the Army had disgraced itself, and passed on stories of US soldiers throwing down their weapons and feigning injuries. A Marine Chaplain even made statements to the press and wrote an article accusing army soldiers of cowardice.
There were so few officers and men left from the Army task force that the Marine’s claims were accepted as fact. But newly released Chinese documents prove otherwise. The Army task force fought bravely against overwhelming odds before being destroyed, and their stubborn defense bought time for the Marines to escape the encirclement.
Nevertheless, Marines to this day hold up the fight at the Chosin reservoir as proof of their superiority over the Army.
In Vietnam, a Marine regiment at Khe Sanh refused to come to the aid of a Special Forces outpost only four miles from their perimeter. On Febuary 7th, 1968, the camp at Lang Vei was overran by heavily armed North Vietnamese troops during an all-night battle. The Marines had earlier agreed to reinforce the camp in the event of an attack, but two requests for assistance were denied.
General Westmoreland himself had to order the Marines to provide helicopters for Special forces personnel, so they could be airlifted into the besieged outpost. By this time the post had been overrun, at a cost of 208 soldiers killed and another 80 wounded. Ironically, two months later this same Marine regiment would be besieged at Khe Sanh, and they would be relieved by Army troops of the First Cavalry Division.
During Operation Desert Storm 90,000 Marines attacked Iraqi forces alongside over 500,000 US Army and coalition troops. Yet the Marines garnered 75 percent of the newsprint and TV coverage. This was not an accident.
The Commanding General of the Marines in Iraq, Gen. Walt Boomer, was the former Director of Public Affairs for the Corps. He issued the following order to Marine units in the theater:
“CMC [Commandant of the Marine Corps, then General A. M. Gray] desires maximum media coverage of USMC … The news media are the tools through which we can tell Americans about the dedication, motivation, and sacrifices of their Marines. Commanders should include public affairs requirements in their operational planning to ensure that the accomplishments of our Marines are reported to the public.“
During the war Marine officers used military communications systems to transmit stories for reporters in the field, and even assigned personnel to carry press dispatches to rear areas. The Marine Commander also had his own entourage of reporters complete with satellite uplinks, and used them to good effect. He received far more air time than his Army counterparts.
The US Army performed a “Hail Mary” operation that trapped Iraq’s Republican Guard divisions and fought numerous running battles in the Iraqi desert. But no one saw them. Instead the press focused on Lt. Gen. Walter Boomer parading triumphantly through the streets of Kuwait City.
When George Bush the Second launched his misguided invasion of Iraq, the Marines were once again included, and this time the goal was Baghdad. The invasion, which began on March 20th, 2003, called for a two pronged assault on Baghdad. The Army’s 5th Corps would advance from the desert west of the Euphrates river, while the First Marine division was ordered to cross the Euphrates and make a parallel advance through central Iraq.
The invasion did not go well for the Marines. In several cities, including Umm al Qasr and Nasiriya, their units suffered heavy casualties fighting remnants of the Iraqi Army and fedayeen guerrillas. Since the Marines had fewer armored vehicles, and they were exposed to a more tenacious enemy, their progress was slower than the Army’s.
Major General Mattis, the commanding general of the Marines in Iraq, was not pleased. He repeatedly pressured his regiments to make greater speed, and this pressure grew more intense as the Marines lagged further behind Army units. On the morning of April 3rd, the First Marine Regiment, commanded by Colonel Dowdy, was ordered to drive to the town of al-Kut.
The city was another choke point, where Iraqi fedayeen guerrillas could ambush Marine convoys in city streets. As soon as his Marines reached the city, they began taking fire. Colonel Dowdy could not forget the mauling another regiment had received in Nasiriya, where 17 Marines were killed and another seventy were wounded.
He had to make a choice. His orders were to proceed to al-Kut, but the decision to push through or bypass the town was up to him. However, Colonel Dowdy was receiving mixed signals from his superiors. According to him “there was a lot of confusion”, some officers were recommending an attack, others urged withdrawal.
Colonel Dowdy decided to bypass al-Kut. His regiment would take an alternative route to Baghdad that was safer, but the detour of 170 miles meant that the Marines fell further behind schedule. Colonel Dowdy‘s superiors were furious with his decision.
After the withdrawal from al-Kut, General Mattis and other staff officers let the Colonel know that his regiment was to make greater speed. That night on the road to Baghdad, vehicles of the First Marine Regiment were ordered to drive the highways of Iraq with their headlights on, irregardless of security. But their progress was not good enough, the Army‘s Fifth Corps had already reached Baghdad.
Colonel Joe Dowdy was relieved of his command the following day. The Marine Corps will never admit it, but he was fired because he failed to carry out the Corps most important mission in Iraq: Colonel Dowdy failed to upstage the US Army by being the first to reach Baghdad.
The Marines would return to Iraq one year later, when the First Marine Expeditionary Force assumed responsibility for Al Anbar province, which includes the city of Fallujah.
During the change of command ceremony Lt. Gen. James T. Conway of the I MEF proclaimed that; “Although Marines don’t normally do nation-building, they will tell you that once given the mission, nobody can do it better.” The Marines took control of the area from the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division, and they made no secret of their distain for the Army’s strategy in Iraq.
Before deploying, General Conway had told the New York Times “I don’t envision using that tactic“, when asked about Army troops using air strikes against the insurgents. “I don’t want to condemn what [Army] people are doing. I think that they are doing what they think they have to do.”
On March 30th, General Conway told a reporter that “There’s no place in our area of operation that we won’t go, and we have taken some casualties in the early going making that point“. The next day four civilian contractors were killed and mutilated in Fallujah, and five Marines also lost their lives. The Marines sealed off the city and attempted to reassert control over Fallujah, but the insurgents proved to be more determined than expected.
When their patrols came under heavy fire the lightly armed Marines had only two choices; Fight it out with the insurgents on foot, or call in artillery and air strikes. The inevitable result was scores of Marines killed or wounded, and hundreds of civilian casualties. The world was appalled by the carnage in Fallujah, and the Marines were called off.
While Marines were fighting in Fallujah, the US Army was heavily engaged against militiamen loyal to Muqtata al-Sadr in cities throughout Iraq. But in contrast to the Marine’s failure to recapture Fallujah, the US Army’s heavy armored vehicles could enter hostile cities with impunity. They brought al-Sadr to heel after two months of fighting, while suffering relatively few casualties.
An uneasy truce was made between the US Army and al-Sadr’s militia, that would last until the Marines again became involved. On July 31st 2004, the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit replaced Army units in the holy city of Najaf, headquarters of Muqtata al-Sadr. Just five days later, al-Sadr’s militia would again be waging open war against the US, and the Marines would be calling for reinforcements.
The Marines began skirmishing with al-Sadr’s militiamen as soon as they were given responsibility for Najaf. After the uprising in April, US Army units had avoided driving past al-Sadr’s house as part of the informal truce, but this would not do for the Marines. The second Shia uprising began after Marines in Najaf provoked al-Sadr by driving their patrols right up to his stronghold.
A firefight ensued, and al-Sadr’s militiamen took up arms in cities throughout Iraq in a replay of the uprising in April. The Marines had not just picked a fight with Muqtada in Najaf, they had engaged his militia in an ancient cemetery that abutted the Imam Ali Mosque, Shiite Islam’s holiest shrine. And they did this without informing the Army chain of command, or the Iraqi government.
According to Maj. David Holahan, second in command of the Marine unit in Najaf, “We just did it”. But in a replay of the Fallujah assault, the Marines faced an enemy that they were not prepared for. Within hours of launching their attack on August 5th, the Marines were pinned down, and requesting assistance.
Unfortunately for the Marines, their rash attack on al-Sadr’s headquarters had sparked another revolt by his militiamen. Army units were once again fighting the Mahdi army in cities throughout Iraq. When the Army’s Fifth Cavalry Regiment received orders to reinforce the beleaguered Marines, they were deployed against al-Sadr’s militia in the outskirts of Bagdhad, 120 miles away.
The Fifth Cavalry arrived in Najaf after a two day drive through insurgent controlled territory. By then any opportunity to capture al-Sadr had been lost, because the press, and the Islamic world, were focused on the Imam Ali Mosque and the adjacent cemetery. Any attack on Shiite Islam’s holiest shrine, where Muqtata al-Sadr was holed up, would have had disastrous consequences for the US war effort.
In Fallujah and Najaf, inexperienced Marine units picked fights with insurgents, and in both cases ended up handing the enemy a strategic victory. Their failure to recapture Fallujah made the city a rallying cry for Islamic militarism worldwide, (that is until the second US assault rendered Fallujah uninhabitable). The Marine’s botched attempt to capture Muqtata al-Sadr has only strengthened his hand.
Today there are 23,000 Marines in Iraq, out of a total 138,000 U.S. Armed Forces personnel. Marines are 17 percent of our total force, yet they have suffered 29 percent of all U.S. casualties; 530 of the more than 1,820 U.S. service personnel killed in Iraq. The Marine’s aggressive tactics combined with a lack of armored firepower has proven lethal, their bravery notwithstanding.
The United States Marines pride themselves on being better than the US Army. They are harder, more gung-ho, and they possess some magic that enables them to do things the US Army can’t do. If this is not true, (as recent events in Iraq suggest), then there is no reason for a separate Marine Corps.
President Harry Truman once stated that Marines; “Have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin’s.” The Marines have always advertised themselves, but in Truman’s day, they at least had something to sell. The original raison d’etre of the USMC was their ability to carry out amphibious landings on hostile beaches.
The truth is, the US Army conducted the biggest amphibious assault in our nation’s history when they captured the Normandy beaches. And neither the Army or the Marines have assaulted an enemy held beach since the Korean war, over fifty years ago. In every subsequent conflict Soldiers and Marines have fought in the same way, using similar equipment and tactics.
The Marines are in fact a second Army, and since they compete with the Army for funds, missions, and prestige, their real enemy is… the US Army.
However, the Marine Corps has an unfair advantage in this competition. Since the end of Desert Storm the US Army has been downsized by one third, losing over 200,000 troops and eight combat divisions. By Contrast the Marines have lost only twenty thousand personnel. The reason is the National Security Act of 1947, which prevents any changes in the force structure of the Marines.
Today’s United States Marine Corps is only slightly larger than the US Army in Iraq. That war is stretching our Army to the breaking point. The obvious solution is to merge the Army and Marine corps into one service.
The savings would add up to tens of billions of dollars when their training, logistics, administration, and headquarters were merged. The personnel shortages that are now crippling both services would disappear. And so would the rivalry between the Army and the Marine Corps.
…
The Populist 
Your article is obvioulsy slanted pro-Army and is somewhat misleading. Although I agree the expensive redundancy and inter-service rivalry is not productive, the fact is the Marines have adapted much faster than the army to the new world of small scale limited warfare. By being forward deployed at sea, they are more capable of sending medium infantry units to hot spots rapidly with enough armor, artillery and self-contained airpower to capture and hold a position, theoretically for a month without support. The army’s airborne divisions are too light to handle heavy forces and the amry’s main units are too slow and cumbersome. That’s why the USMC was the first major conventional force in Afghanistan, a land-locked country that should have been the domain of the army. The Army Special Forces and Navy SEALs, while getting tremendous media attention and an oversize share of the military budget must really be seen as a recon unit capable of very small scale operations. The article should have really focused on the question not of “do we need a Marine Corps”, but do we need an army? Since a mandatory draft is political suicide, the government has been forced to maintain a large standing army (and Marines). Combat happens so rapidly in today’s world that many wars are over before a force can complete a training cycle. THe fact is that we need a large-scale rapid deployment force that can project power to a foreign country and hold the enemy until reinforcements arrive. Your cut on the fact that there have been no amphibious invasions since WWII does injustice to the soldiers and Marines that participated in Grenada. Granted landing craft hitting a heavily reinforced beach is unlikely, but helicopters coming in from ships is very likley. I agree the two forces should merge, but certainly not under the army’s slow, methodical, top heavy model. The Marines have won this argument.
In the Army, shock troops are a small minority supported by a vast group of artisans, laborers, clerks and organizers. In the Marines there are practically nothing but shock troops.
—Combat correspondent John Lardner, 6 March 1945 report on Iwo Jima in New Yorker magazine, 17 March 1945
Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets may as well be paper-weights.
Navy Times; November 1994
Why in hell can’t the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can’t they be like Marines.
Gen. John J. “Black Jack” Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918
I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!
General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur; Korea, 21 September 1950
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff
during the assault on Grenada, 1983
Lying offshore, ready to act, the presence of ships and Marines sometimes means much more than just having air power or ship’s fire, when it comes to deterring a crisis. And the ships and Marines may not have to do anything but lie offshore. It is hard to lie offshore with a C-141 or C-130 full of airborne troops.
Gen. Colin Powell, U. S. Army
Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff
During Operation Desert Storm
You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth- and the amusing thing about it is that they are.
Father Kevin Keaney
1st Marine Division Chaplain
Korean War
The Marine Corps has just been called by the New York Times, ‘The elite of this country.’ I think it is the elite of the world.
Admiral William Halsey, U.S. Navy
I can’t say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like ‘brilliant,’ it would really be an under description of the absolutely superb job that they did in breaching the so-called ‘impenetrable barrier.’ It was a classic- absolutely classic- military breaching of a very very tough minefield, barbed wire, fire trenches-type barrier.
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U. S. Army
Commander, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991
I am convinced that there is no smarter, handier, or more adaptable body of troops in the world.
Prime Minister of Britain, Sir Winston Churchhill on US Marines.
The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.
Gen. John “Black Jack” Pershing, U.S. Army
Commander of American Forces in World War I
The American Marines have it [pride], and benefit from it. They are tough, cocky, sure of themselves and their buddies. They can fight and they know it.
General Mark Clark, U.S. Army
“The deadliest weapon in the world is a MARINE and his rifle!”
GEN. PERSHING, US.ARMY
“The more MARINES I have around the better I like it!”
GEN. MARK CLARK, U.S. ARMY
“I want you boys to hurry up and whip these Germans so we can get out to the Pacific to kick the s**t out of the purple-pissing Japanese, before the Godda**ed MARINES get all the credit!”
Lt General George Patton, US Army 1945
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
GEORGE ORWELL, on US Marines
“I can never again see a UNITED STATES MARINE without experiencing a feeling of reverence.”
GEN. JOHNSON, U.S. ARMY
“Teufelhunde! (Devil Dogs)”
GERMAN SOLDIERS, WW1 at BELLEAU WOOD
“We have two companies of MARINES running all over this island and thousands of ARMY troops doing nothing!”
GEN. JOHN VESSEY, CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS
“Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the AMERICAN MARINES.”
CAPTURED NORTH KOREAN MAJOR
There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26 January 1952
My only answer as to why the Marines get the toughest jobs is because the average Leatherneck is a much better fighter. He has far more guts, courage, and better officers… These boys out here have a pride in the Marine Corps and will fight to the end no matter what the cost.
2nd Lt. Richard C. Kennard, Peleliu, World War II
This was the first time that the Marines of the two nations had fought side by side since the defense of the Peking Legations in 1900. Let it be said that the admiration of all ranks of 41 Commando for their brothers in arms was and is unbounded. They fought like tigers and their morale and esprit de corps is second to none.
Lt Col. D.B. Drysdale, Commanding 41 Commando, Chosen Reservoir, on the 1st Marine Division Division
There was always talk of Espirit de Corps, of being gung ho, and that must have been a part of it. Better, tougher training, more marksmanship on the firing range, the instant obedience to orders seared into men in boot camp.
James Brady, press secretary to President Reagan
A Ship without Marines is like a garment without buttons.
Adm. David Dixon Porter, USN in a letter to Colonel Commandant John Harris, USMC, 1863
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share.
Ned Dolan
The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years.
James Forrestal, Secretary of the Navy; 23 February 1945
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don’t have that problem.
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They’re aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They’ve got really short hair and they always go for the throat.
RAdm. “Jay” R. Stark, USN; 10 November 1995
They told (us) to open up the Embassy, or “we’ll blow you away.” And then they looked up and saw the Marines on the roof with these really big guns, and they said in Somali, “Igaralli ahow,” which means “Excuse me, I didn’t mean it, my mistake”.
Karen Aquilar, in the U.S. Embassy; Mogadishu, Somalia, 1991
By their victory, the 3rd, 4th and 5th Marine Divisions and other units of the Fifth Amphibious Corps have made an accounting to their country which only history will be able to value fully. Among the Americans who served on Iwo Island, uncommon valor was a common virtue.
Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, U.S. Navy
Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army.
Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War; shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered to not wear their khaki leggings.
“Marines are about the most peculiar breed of human beings I have ever witnessed. They treat their service as if it was some kind of cult, plastering their emblem on almost everything they own, making themselves up to look like insane fanatics with haircuts to ungentlemanly lengths, worshipping their Commandant almost as if he was a god, and making weird animal noises like a band of savages. They’ll fight like rabid dogs at the drop of a hat just for the sake of a little action, and are the cockiest SOB’s I have ever known. Most have the foulest mouths and drink well beyond man’s normal limits, but their high spirits and sense of brotherhood set them apart and , generally speaking, of the United States Marines I’ve come in contact with, are the most professional soldiers and the finest men I have had the pleasure to meet.”
~ An Anonymous Canadian Citizen
“The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a MARINE CORPS for the next 500 years.”
JAMES FORRESTAL, SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
“The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of MARINES. LORD, how they could fight!”
MAJ. GEN. FRANK LOWE, U.S. ARMY
WE STOLE THE EAGLE FROM THE AIR FORCE, THE ANCHOR FROM THE NAVY AND THE ROPE FROM THE ARMY.
ON THE SEVENTH DAY WHILE GOD RESTED, WE OVERRAN HIS PERIMETER, STOLE THE GLOBE AND WE’VE BEEN RUNNING THE WHOLE SHOW EVER SINCE. WE LIVE LIKE SOLDIERS, TALK LIKE SAILORS, AND SLAP THE HELL OUT OF BOTH OF THEM.
WARRIORS BY DAY, LOVERS BY NIGHT, PROFESSIONALS BY CHOICE, AND MARINES BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
“ON THE SEVENTH DAY WHILE GOD RESTED, WE OVERRAN HIS PERIMETER, STOLE THE GLOBE AND WE’VE BEEN RUNNING THE WHOLE SHOW EVER SINCE.”
That is a false assertion.
Marines were not a significant component of the US Military until WWII. In World WarII, they fought in the Pacific. The US Army made the US’ main effort, against Germany, the more dangerous foe.
“I can’t say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like ‘brilliant,’ it would really be an under description of the absolutely superb job that they did in breaching the so-called ‘impenetrable barrier.’ It was a classic- absolutely classic- military breaching of a very very tough minefield, barbed wire, fire trenches-type barrier.”
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U. S. Army
Commander, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991
This implies General Schwartzkopf singled out the Marines for praise. Óe did not. Óe praised all the components for their roles in the victory.
The Army’s role was to make the main effort in the ground war. VII Corps fought the Republican Guard. The Marines fought Iraq’s second line units. The Tiger Brigade, an Armored Brigade from the Army’s Second Armored Division, attached to the Marines, took out the Iraqi armor facing the Marines.
cpl hodder usmc 1977-1983 thankgod i was able to have the priviledge to serve in the finest fighting force to ever walk the face of gods green earth….marine green for life.
LOLOL Hey TW Barker USMC 0311-That was awesome. You’re an actual fucking imbicile.
I only have one question. Why do you put your zip code next to your name?
Hey cpl hodder, just a point of information:
La Légion Etrangère Française is the finest fighting force to ever walk the face of this earth.
Your Chesty Puller couldn’t lick the piss drops of the dick of a Legionarre. And our entraînement fondamental at Castelnaudary makes your boot camp at Parris Island look like a weekend in Disneyworld. One difference between a marine and a Legionarre is marines do nothing but talk the talk. Legionarres don’t brag, Legionarres don’t even talk, we just walk the walk. Another difference between a marine and a Legionarre is that every Legionarre is a combat veteran. It’s virtually guaranteed you will be in combat somewhere in the world within one month of finishing at Castelnaudary. And if you care to serve in 2e Régiment étranger de parachutistes, 2e REP, you will likely spend your entire 5 year contract in combat.
We used to have an expression in the Légion: “ma soeur est un s d’u marin.”
Translation: “My sister was a U.S. marine.”
Marine green for life. Hoorah. You’re a fucking clown.
If 18FOX was FFL, I’m the goddamn pope. He can’t even fucking spell Legionnaire.
The French Foreign Legion? bwahahahahahahahaha
We Marines have a saying:
“Going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordion”
TW Barker seriously needs to expand his library beyond Leatherneck Magazine.
I guess you prove this articles point…The Marines have a great Ad campaign. How about you put up fact not propaganda.
“At the end of the day, the only service that can do decisive combat is the United States Army. You can bomb all the bunkers you want, you can do all the beach assaults you want, but until you stand at the square of the other guy’s capital and run up your flag….you ain’t won”– marine General John J. Sheehan
Semper FI: God Loves MARINES, because we keep heaven packed with fresh souls, he has his game, and the Marines have their game!
Shut up Jarhead. Overated lying drama queens.
I mostly skimmed through your reply but what i saw was complete bullshit. Yes i do agree that the article is a little one sided. But give me proof of the army generals saying that ive never seen them anywhere besides in bullshit and false writings. So please give me a reliable source to find those quotes. Also about you saying marines are generally better fighters and have more courage and guts is complete bullshit and quite frankly an insult. Especially to all the soldiers who have died or have been wounded. There is video proof of a marine combat instructor saying that the army fights the same exact way as marines and train the same when it comes to infantry and fighting. The mci said this when the army and marines switched one of their drill sergeants for a marine combat instuctor. You can find this video on youtube by searching army and marines switch drill sergeants it is by the benning report. Another thing is that if someone was to bring up shit about marine boot camp thats bullshit. Everyone knows bootcamp doesnt mean shit. The real training comes when your with your unit. Not to mention one of the only reasons marine boot is longer is because they spend double the time on drill and stuff like that and also on history. Also army bct is mostly combat for the most part. But marines are way way to overrated and brag/boast way to much.
Most of the quotes given are just bullshit created by Marine friendly correspondants. Pershing never said anything close to that, and MacArthur probably hated the Marines. Mostly all PR and embellishments. And they were in Afghanistan because the Marine brass threw a hissyfit to make it happened this way. In any case, it moot because its the Army that has won every one of America’s wars.
The Army is a small minority of shock troops? You are forgetting that the Army has an entire Division of AIrborne Infantry, trained to a higher level than regular infantry, with a Brigade on elevated alert status and at least a battalion ready to go at all times that can be deployed anywhere and unless the Marines are on station, faster. You are also forgetting that the Army has a Brigade of highly trained Special Operations infantry known as Rangers, operating as 3 separate battalions available for quick response anywhere in the world. Maybe you are just referring to our Special Forces operators and Delta Force… But of course, they are on the ground long before any Marine unit knows that an operation is being considered. Yes… The Marines are amazing at propaganda and I do believe a higher level of esprit de corps than regular Army troops, but the Army also has large units that specialize in specific missions/terrain. As far as my experience, during my Army Jump School course, NONE of the Marines made the 13 mile run we did during my Zero week (Jump School candidates who arrive early receive, usually includes mostly basic trainees only). When I was in Alaska, we trained Army and Marine units in Extreme Cold Weather Training… After maneuvering around a Marine Corps unit to assault what was supposed to be a defensive position (a more than 20 mile march over rough terrain for us), we found them in tents with stoves going – And when we assaulted, a Marine officer came out of a tent waving his arms and yelling “TOO COLD TO TRAIN! TOO COLD TO TRAIN!. I guess he didn’t realize his unit was there for EXTREME Cold Weather Training… Anyway, we continued the assault, taking down their tents in the process… I had never seen an Army unit do anything like this, even regular non-airborne forces.
Damn that was cheesy
Those are just quotes they really mean nothing
Semper Fi!
Ooohhhrrraaaa!! Army dog joined the Army because he couldn’t handle our psychotic games and hell bent physical training or the marksmanship of every Marine who qualifies at 200, 300 and 500 yards, including precision drill.
To everyone, and not to single anyone out, a special nod to 18FOX:
The US Marines are a totally different group than other military units, branches, and are all American’s fighting for their own country, unlike 18FOX and his FFL.
The Marines will be the first to fight, secure the area, kill the enemy (so you don’t have to) and the Army is a garrison style. They will follow the Marines and establish H&HQ, medical, security.
The media will have news reels of the Army liberating villigaes and towns, while the Marines are off to the next fight.
To the person that initiated the whole story, you have shown your bias, and it is sad to see how people still have a need to put down and denograte others to make themselves feel better.
There is no real difference between the people that make up any of the military branches (excluding the Air Force, they almost made it in the military, not quite (Joe King))
We all serve a purpose and each one is unique.
Each of us is unique, just like everyone else.
Obviously you are another brainwashed marine or marine lover. Can’t face the facts.
The Marine Corps is filled with men that do not know their own history. Men that will gladly die for no reason.
Grenada…..wasn’t that a exercise to see how U.S. Special Operations Forces would work in low intensity conflicts.
Get your facts straight before oyu talk…..don’t reguritate what your drill told you.
haha, this is pretty sad. the marines upstage the army at every turn and you want to give a bunch of half ass excuses. noone here believes your bs. all you have to do is meet a soldier, then meet a marine. case closed. you obviously had your girl stolen by a marine or something. i dont know man but let it go.
thats why theres a forest that was named after the u.s. marines in ww1 by the way im 15
U.S. Army all the way. 82nd Airborne.like always Marine hype.the Marines are like apes Army uses their brains
I have been posting comments to a couple of Marine Corps videos on Youtube, mainly pointing how the Marine Corps embellishes its history. A number of the people who have replied to my videos are Marines who have no knowledge of American history, military or otherwise. Lately the owners of those videos have blocked my comments. The Marines show they can not handle the truth. ROTFLOL
You don’t seem to know jack shit about anything. What resources do you have dumb ass. Obviously you’re some hooah bitch that doesn’t have the balls to say anything to a marines face. Whether or the facts of the past is
True. Since WWII it’s a fact the marines have been better and have had harder traing. The army has 3 times as many marines yet who protects the white house and every U.S. embassy throughout the world.
The jarheads can’t stand facts. They’re not all they’re cracked up to be, and the myths are mostly concoctions of their own little minds. Semper Stupid!
Lol right friken on.
173rd airborne
The movie heart break ridge was another marine false flag. Force recon was a marine invention because the army refused hollywoody to participate because of too much drunk shit etc. Hollywood knew the marine corps propaganda fuks would love turning a 75th army ranger situation into a faggish marine incident. Dig the internet once you get past the Hollywood marines find the truth. 😉
Wow, I’m speechless. A viable, intelligent comment on this thread. I began to lose hope that anyone had actually delved into the mechanics of our military and the role it plays in the world…unfortunately that includes the “author” of the article. It’s more like typical things you hear around a keg or something. Alot of cursing, chest beating and spouting facts that resemble things you read in bathroom stalls.
I’ve never met a combat vet, from any service, who isn’t proud of his branch. But the unique thing is, brotherly ribbing aside, they also don’t vomit up angry nonsense to prove it either.
Must be that whole “you actually had to be there thing”. Which again, most of the people here(“author” included) cannot say they were.
Memo to all veterans who served in America’s armed forces. If you ever come across some asshole from the French Foreign Legion don’t hesitate to give him 5 minutes of close-order knuckle drill. Everywhere these overrated Yoe Hoes go to always get their asses kicked and then try and put a spin on their defeats. You are not elite if you are always getting your ass kicked. end of story
Just an FYI. The Army had conventional troops in Afghanistan either simultaneously with the Marines on 25 Nov ’01 at Mazaar e Sharif (where former Marine turned CIA agent died) or at latest one day later on the 26th to assist the SF ODA in defeating the prisoner uprising and secure Bagram from the SAS.
MAYBE beating the Army’s conventional troops by a day is hardly evidence of being more successful in creating a more nimble force. I wish I could cite a specific date more confidently but the Army wasn’t as concerned with documenting as it was with getting into the fight which it did at Mazaar e Sharif before the Corps saw a green tracer.
Might also want to reasses the 82nd DIVISION being on the ground before the USMC during desert storm and contrary to popular belief had equivalent or greater combat power in Saudi Arabia even after the Marines arrived.
Here’s a link to the airflow. http://www.history.army.mil/CHRONOS/intro.htm
You’ll find the 82nd had a BATTALION of light tanks on the ground WEEKS before the Marines arrived and the first company of Army M1s arrived in Saudi Arabia TWO WEEKS before the Marines docked.
I don’t agree with the author’s conclusion. IMO he doesn’t make the case for disbanding the Marines. It’s about as strong as your case for the Army not being responsive or the absolutely ridiculous case for disbanding it. If nothing else a decade of 12 month deployments and providing the lion’s share of combat power overseas makes the case for who is indispensable.
This is old forum but army was so big about being first in iraq. But the army got scolded all over the media by congress. You forgot one thing ….supplies. those guys played cards till they the supplies arrived from theNavy. Navy had to ship food to army cuz they ran out. Your deployment was a major FAIl.
Did you actually read this whole article? The Marines in Afghanistan could take on anything that was thrown due to the fact they were more heavily armed than the 82nd. Did the 82nd have any heavy armor……..no…Did the 82nd have their own close air support that was an integrated arm of their division…..no…So the article is correct what it said about the Marines in Afghanistan being first and heaviest armored units in the beginning of that war.
You said…”I don’t agree with the author’s conclusion. IMO he doesn’t make the case for disbanding the Marines.” — i believe he did make the case. It is all about unnecessary costs. The USA has every type of unit that can do anything any Marine unit could.. Paratrooper, Ranger, Green Berets, etc.
Uh..the Army’s 10th Mountain ands 101st were the first conventional units into A-stan guy…weeks..before any Marines set foot. I know..I was there…
Moderator – please share my e-mail with Scurvy.
Scurvy – Contact the 10th ID museum because they were looking for more evidence to confirm the 10th ID was in Afghanistan on or before 25 Nov ’01. Who in the 101st were you referring to because all my research shows they arrived in Afghanistan after 25 Nov (though they were in theatre near Karshi Kandabad in south-central Uzbekistan before the Marines arrived in theatre).
No they weren’t. 10 1st relieved us in February 2002. ODA and Rangers were conducting missions, but 10 1st relieved elements of the 26th MEU and 15th MEU in Kandahar. I respectfully disagree as I was there.
And you got to have food and shelter when the Marines, and the Seebees showed up. Doesn’t matter if your there but can’t do anything but small targeted attacks, and that was limited due to lack of supply and support.
AWESOME ARTICLE!!! Thank you for exposing the coattail-clinging, media/glory-seeking, cowardly-sandbagging, “not-cut-out-for-the-job” Marines for what they really are! Clearly the world would be a much better place without the Marine Corps as you point out. The Marines have managed hoodwink and fool the world for 236 & 3/4ths years now, taking credit for countless U.S. Army accomplishments. You did fail to mention the fallacy of Marine Corps basic training, know to Marines as Bootcamp. The misinformation and tales of folklore that akin this experience to one of the most challenging military basic trainings in the world couldn’t be more further from the truth! These so-called Marines are basking in two-man rooms curing co-ed training sessions that even include stress cards for those who feel especially challenged. This laxed training regimen follows the Marines into their careers, where they tend to depend on the U.S. Army to save their pathetic @$$es time and time again, as history as you spin it illustrates.
ALL branches of the military are essential to our freedom, and I say this as a PROUD UNITED STATES MARINE AND PATRIOT OF THIS COUNTRY HAVING GIVEN MORE THAN 20 YEARS OF SERVICE FOR YOU TO WRITE THIS CRAP (and I’d love to know your contributions to this country, aside of running your mouth, spinning misinformation and otherwise being yet another worthless turd-cog in the wheel of society). Pull your head out of your @$$ and get with the program – maybe you should put your negative energy to a something more positive, like volunteering in your community and making a positive impact on the nation that enables you to run your mouth in a slanderous way. Maybe someday you’ll be kidnapped in some third-world country… heaven forbid a Marine comes to your aid………
Bias much you arrogant twat?
ohhhra hodderusmc77@yahoo.com
Ok as an Army vet myself… your post is just wrong on Facts there buddy..
dandy1974, you’re an idiot!
As a Marine, I don’t disrespect the Army, but I disrespect the bullshit in this article. Yes, the Marines do more with less, and I’ve seen the product from other service’s basic training, and they are no comparison to a Marine. This is meant with no disrespect it’s just a fact. If you’re ever in a situation on the ground, where all the billions of dollars of technology can’t help you, up and close, you’ll pray there are Marines in the area. Pride does not come from bullshit, but bullshit comes from ignorance. You must have lacked the balls to be a Marine, so to the author of this bullshit. Are you really a pathetic jihadist praying for the end of Marines? Or as mentioned earlier, did a Marine have your significant other screaming Semper “fi” or OOOOhhhh Rahhh, while she was getting banged unconscious? You are a pathetic parasite living in a dog turd. I imagine your kind need to exist because prisoners need sex too.
Mark Hicks stfu. Stop quoting Marine phrases cuz that only proves the point more that Marines are just brainwashed dumbasses who will blindly die for the Corps no matter how pointless it is. You don’t do more with less, you have less so you’re able to do less it’s simple. The US Army has already adapted to Modern Warfare years ago, the Marines were not the first to adapt to it. I would go on but to ur probably never gonna see this and I just want to sleep as I am currently in bed as of posting this. Goodnight and fuck the Marine Corps.
Without the Army there would be no Marine corps. The Vietnamese had an Army but no Marines or Navy! The Marines were insignificant for most of Americas history!
“without the army there would be no marine corps”. Really? You’re pretty stupid. The marine corps is part of the navy, without a navy there would be no marine corps. If you want to look at it this way, there would be no U.S. Army without prior armies from other countries that came before them. Maybe I just don’t really
understand the statement you’re trying to make.
This is an interesting arguement considering the Vietnamese had both a Marine Corps and a Navy, both of which were created by the French before their forces began to withdrawal after the failure of the Dien Bien Phu in 1954. The Vietnamese Marine Corps (VNMC) is considered by a large majority of Mobile Riverine Force sailors’ to be ahead of their peers in the Vietnamese Army. Also, I have noticed your comment on these supposed insignificance of the USMC, yet Gen. Petraeus and Gen. “Mad Dog” Mattis both used the Combined Action Program (CAP) and the Manual for Low Intensity Warfare to build the entire framework for combatting insurgents in the Global War on Terror/Overseas Contingency Operations. CAP was a Marine Corps program developed during Veitnam, with attached Green Beret training teams, to midigate Vietcong presents in low lying rural areas. The other is a Manual created and kept up-to-date since its creation after the conclusion of the “Banana Wars”.
Read General Norman Schwarzkopf book where he threatens to send a Marine Corps unit to take an airfield the army failed to do. I was in Grenada and the logistics in the Army were a disgrace. Keep lying to your undisciplined asses. I know Marines who went into the Army after serving in the Marines and they told me the Army is one big joke. So go fuck yourself you doggie scumbags and stop pretending to be bad asses. Even the Navy SEALS Kick Delta’s ass. Pussies
I couldn’t have said it better myself. The Marines are the Kardashians of the military.
LOL I like how every reply is pro Marine propaganda. We have found the blind. Oh and this is a Soldier who lost his best friend thanks to the Marines breaking the truce with Al Sadr. Marines get themselves and everyone else killed where as we save Marines and take more lives and fight larger operations. I appreciate the services members but I hate the Marine organization.
Sadly, the Marine Corps can never again be a great organization.It came into its own in the Twentieth Century, and performed spectacularly during World War I, World War II, and in Korea, and truly was a great organization.
Unfortunately, since the post-Korea era, the powers that be who control the Marine Corps have been more concerned with preserving its legacy, than in continuing that legacy. The Marine Corps of today is systemically and institutionaly afraid of losing, and is thus no more than an expensively maintained anacronism.
The Marine Corps never really had an excluse reason for being at any rate. Certainly not at its current strength. Its self-described amphibeous expertise was never exclusive to the Marine Corps. The U.S. Army launched 5 major amphibeous landings during World War II. All were expertly performed, and eminently successful. Three of those amphibeous assaults, North Africa, Sicily and Normandy were ten tims the size of any amphibeous assault the Marine Corps ever attempted. And the United States has not launched an opposed amphibeous assault since World War II, and in the day of helicopters and air transport, never again will.
The Marine Corps command structure repeatedly kicks and screams against ever being committed to any action in which it is not virtually assured of being successful. It is very reminincent of the later-World War II British Army, who continuously resisted operations, regardless of their strategic neccessity, if it was not virtually assured of winning. The British Army of that era had legitimacy in that attitide, as Britain was nearly depleted of military age citizenry. But today’s Marine Corps resists operations it is not virtually assured of winning, simply because it is too concerned with risking its reputation. It is loathe to ever deploy without its airplanes, and there must be an institutional reason for that. The Marine Corps, and marine Corps commanders have historically demonstrated they are not overly concerned with losing lives. So that clearly is not the reason. Maybe an excuse, maybe a crutch, maybe a paranoia. In that sense, the Marine Corps of today, and in deed the post-Korea Marine Corps is well past its prime, and well past its usefulness.
This stream is as long as it is silly. Why do you all persist? It’s all very simple:
The Army and the Marine Corps have two entirely different organizational structures, and accordingly have two very contrary operational philosophies that each accord with their respective obligations.
The Marine Corps is built for assault, and their doctrine is designed to accomplish that end. They hit fast, and hit hard. The Marine Corps neither understands, nor is capable of conducting serious war. The Army on the other hand, is built for the long haul, and their organization is built, and their doctrine is designed to that end.
The Marine Corps operates in simplistic tactical strategies, and with no strategic strategy concerns. Institutionally, and historically, the Marine Corps willingly accepts heavy casualties to quickly accomplish its short mission. The Army operates in carefully calculated tactical strategies, with strategic strategy always the ultimate overriding concern. The Marine Corps hits, takes hits, and withdraws. The Army hits, takes hits, and fights on. The Army simply cannot afford to take heavy casualties. It holds the obligation of continuing the fight for the long haul, and must retain its tactically integrity to that end.
The 3rd, 4th, and 5th Marine Divisions amphibeously assaulted Iwo Jima in World War II. Combined they took about 5000 KIA and about 19,000 WIA in 36 days, for about 24,000 total casualties, or roughly 29 % casualties. But they could, because they knew after a month or so they would be withdrawn to a remote tropical island to rest and refit.
The 1st, 4th and 29th Infantry Divisions amphibeously assaulted Normandy in World War II. Combined they took about 3000 KIA and about 10,000 WIA in 40 days, for about 13,000 total casualties, or about 23.63 % casualties. The infantry divisions could not afford to take any more casualties than that in Normandy, because they knew there was no prospect for relief and withdrawal to a remote tropical island for rest and refit. No, the 1st, 4th, and 29th Infantry Divisions needed to get to Germany.
But the Army can play that game too. The Army’s Marine Corps is its 82d Airborne Division. The 82d Airborne was the Army’s initial assault unit in Normandy, and accordingly, the 82d Airborne Division took horrendous casualties. The 8,000-strong 82d Airborne suffered 5,209 casualties in Normandy (60.51 %), with 1,282 KIA (14.98 %) and 3,927 WIA (46.14 %). After 33 days in the line, the 82d Airborne Division was relieved and withdrawn to England for rest and refit. But the 1st, 4th, and 29th Infantry Divisions did not enjoy that luxury.
The 1st, 4th, and 29th Infantry Divisions stayed in the front lines for the next 11 months after Normandy. By the time they reached Germany in April of the following year, the 1st, 4th, and 29th Infantry Divisions had each taken twice the number of KIA, WIA, and total casualties of any Marine Corps division in the Pacific. That’s the long-haul. The slog. In the long run, a far more deadly way of war than rapid assaults.The Army can’t afford tactics that bring too heavy casualties in any one local fight. They most often have a war to fight, and thier war always extends far beyond the beachhead.
Two different obligations, two different missions, and two divergent but respectively applicable operating philosophies.
Spot on! I am an Old Marine Officer. This is taught to all DoD Officers at Command and Staff College. The Officers of Both, the Army and the Marine Corps, will tell you that one can not do with out the other in todays environment.
The Marines attack the beach and the Army attacks the country from that footing. Marines are only able to have sustained combat for 30 days. This gives the time for the Army and the Air Force to make it to theatre.
I am not saying that the Army doesn’t take the beach… they have and they will. The Marine Corps is better suited for this role as they have attached Naval Gunfire, Attack and Fighter Aircraft, Vertical Lift, Artillery, Tanks, Logistics, and Infantry. The Army doesn’t have these.
I think all including the writer of this article is a little bias… this is fine. One should be proud of their service. One had be very careful about talking down another Branch of our services. I was fortunate enough to help some Dogs in An Bar. Some Deltas were able to help me. Bought them a beer.
Thanks to all who have worn Green. You are my Brother. Semper Fi. Cat Jack
A. Scott Piraino you must have some kind of Marine Corps hangup along with some of the other soldiers who have commented here. You clearly have a very loose grasp of the facts. Its true the the Marine Corps has always been small and its mission has changed over the years, but calls to eliminate the Marine Corps are exactly what prompts emotional responses from Marines, Sailors and civilians. Its funny, the only time when I was in the Marines that I had much contact with the Army was in Seoul in the 80’s. We had a week of liberty (leave in your vernacular) in Seoul after a month in the field during Team Spirit 88′ and other training. We were tired and just looking for relation and fun. The Army was everywhere, trying to pick fights with Marines who they outnumbered 10:1, acting like asses in bars etc. Embarrassing. No Marine cares about fighting a soldier, it would prove nothing.
As to your argument about saving money the Marine Corps spends a lot less money per Marine than the Army spends per soldier. The Marines use hand-me-down army gear and only get the latest in actual weapons for the most part. The Marine Corps officer to enlisted ratio is also lower. The Marines are a money saver. Maybe the Army should be folded into the Marine Corps. Too bad half of the Army would wash out. http://www.havenews.com/article/20140109/Opinion/301099965
And some history mostly from Wikipedia with citations included. Before you give me crap for using Wikipedia please provide citations for your “facts.”
Revolutionary War: The Corps was formed by the Continental Congress on November 10, 1775 and was disbanded in 1783. In all, there were 131 Colonial Marine officers and probably no more than 2,000 enlisted Colonial Marines. Simmons, Edwin Howard (2003). The United States Marines: A History, 4th Edition. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 1-59114-790-5.
First Barbary War: On the night of 16 February 1804, Lieutenant Stephen Decatur led a small detachment of U.S. Marines aboard the captured Tripolitan ketch rechristened USS Intrepid, thus deceiving the guards on Philadelphia to float close enough to board her. Decatur’s men stormed the ship and overpowered the Tripolitan sailors. With fire support from the American warships, the Marines set fire to Philadelphia, denying her use by the enemy. British admiral, Horatio Nelson, himself known as a man of action and courage, reportedly called this “the most bold and daring act of the age.” Eaton had requested 100 Marines, but had been limited to eight by Commodore Barron, who wished to budget his forces differently. Daugherty 2009, pp. 11–12.
The turning point in the war was the Battle of Derna (April–May 1805). Ex-consul William Eaton, a former Army captain who used the title of “general”, and US Marine Corps 1st Lieutenant Presley O’Bannon led a force of eight U.S. Marines and five hundred mercenaries—Greeks from Crete, Arabs, and Berbers on a march across the desert from Alexandria, Egypt, to capture the Tripolitan city of Derna. This was the first time the United States flag was raised in victory on foreign soil. Daugherty 2009 ibid & “Battle of Derna”. Militaryhistory.about.com.
War of 1812: In May 1811, 2 officers and 47 Marines established an advanced base on Cumberland Island, Georgia to be used for actions against pirates in Spanish Florida, and captured Fernandina on 18 March 1812 for occupation until May 1813. This was the first peacetime overseas base of the United States.
The Marine Corps’ first land action of the War of 1812 was the establishment of an advanced base at Sackets Harbor, New York by 63 Marines. This gave the Navy a base on the shores of Lake Ontario, and later, headquartered their operations in the Great Lakes; Marines helped to repel two British attacks (the First and Second Battle of Sacket’s Harbor). The Marines also established another base at Erie, Pennsylvania. Marine ship detachments took part in the great frigate duels of the war, the first American victories of the war. By the end of the war Marines acquired a reputation as marksmen, especially in ship-to-ship actions. On 27 April 1813, Marines participated in United States Army Colonel Winfield Scott’s landing at York (now Toronto). Under Commodore Joshua Barney and Captain Samuel Miller, they acted to delay the British forces marching toward Washington at the Battle of Bladensburg. During the battle, they held the line after the Army and militia retreated, though were eventually overrun. Tradition holds that the British respected their fighting enough to spare the Marine Barracks and Commandant’s house when they burned Washington, though they may have intended to use it as a headquarters; a related legend cites that two NCOs buried treasure at the site (to prevent its capture) that is yet unfound. At the Battle of New Orleans, the Marines held the center of Gen Andrew Jackson’s defensive line. A total of 46 Marines would die and 66 were wounded in the war. Elting, John R. (1995). Amateurs to Arms! A military history of the War of 1812. New York: Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80653-3; Powers, Rod. “Marine Corps Legends”. About.com. Retrieved 5 April 2008; “Precedence of the U.S. Navy and the Marine Corps”. Naval History & Heritage Command. 4 October 2009. Retrieved 14 February 2010.
Together with sailors and Army troops, they again captured Amelia Island and Fernandina in Spanish Florida on 23 December 1817. Fernandina was occupied until Spain ceded Florida to the United States in 1821. In 1823, Marines also established an advanced base on Thompson’s Island, now called Key West, for Commodore David Porter to use against pirates around the island of Cuba. They garrisoned Pensacola, Florida in 1825 to use it as a base against pirates in the West Indies. See New York: Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80653-3; Powers, Rod. “Marine Corps Legends”. About.com. Retrieved 5 April 2008; “Precedence of the U.S. Navy and the Marine Corps”. Naval History & Heritage Command. 4 October 2009. Retrieved 14 February 2010.
You are not comparing “apples to apples”.
The second world war presented basically two different enemies, vichy france and mussolini’s italy were really inconsequential.
Twenty thousand imperial japanese soldiers defended Iwo Jima, around 200 were taken prisoner.
You can’t point to anything comparable in Europe, not even close.
I served in the Seabees. I have experience working with the other branches, except the air force, they didn’t like to come outside when it was raining or cold or what have you.
I will make a Marine Corps joke with the best of em. But the truth is if it weren’t for uncle sam’s misguided children I would be worm food.
They are very, very good at what they do. I don’t believe for a second that the army could in any way duplicate the capability of the Marine Corps.
3rd brigade 101st Airborne ” rakkasans” were the first conventional force in Afghanistan, not the marines.
Negative. C and Weapons 1/1 were.
FOB Rhino….
FOB Rhino Afghanistan, was established with 1000 Marines on Oct. 25. The buildup of forces in Central Asia led CFLCC to request further augmentation to position a command and control node closer to the actual fighting. CFLCC asked for the equivalent of a division tactical command post to serve as the CFLCC (Forward) headquarters, which would operate initially from the forward operating base at Karshi Kandabad in Uzbekistan. On 25 November the 10th Mountain Division (Light), stationed at Fort Drum, New York, and commanded by Maj. Gen. Franklin L. “Buster” Hagenbeck, received orders to deploy to Central Asia for the mission. Initially constrained by the number of forces already deployed in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Persian Gulf and by the force cap in place for the Afghanistan region, the division organized a small, 159-man command post for the mission. On 12 December the 10th Mountain Division headquarters officially assumed duties as the CFLCC (Forward) at Karshi Kandabad. Working in the past closely with SF, Please do not even tell them they belong to the regular Army. Bad JUJU….
Tony – FOB Rhino was first occupied very late on 25 November and the morning of 26 Nov not October. The Rangers conducted a raid on 20 Oct. There were not a 1000 Marines on Rhino until 29 Nov.
Check out the official Army history of OEF.http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/Afghanistan/Operation%20Enduring%20Freedom.htm
Tthe 1st battalion of the 87th Infantry, 10th Mountain Division (Light), deployed to Karshi Kandabad.Uzbekistan starting to arrive on 5 October 2001. They were also among the first significant conventional force in combat deploying on 25-26 Oct as the QRF during the Mazar-e Sharif prison uprising and were in contact with the enemy (the first conventional forces to do so) with the special forces calling in airstrikes against the hundreds of armed Taliban and AQ. The rest of the BN closed on and secured Bagram airfield in the following days.
Gene – the Rakassans were not the first conventional or Army troops in Afghanistan.
There is one obvious thing that the author missed in his whole “marines are not special” diatribe. The US Marine Corps is the only military force in the history of the world that guards the streets of heaven. I have no knowledge of the US Army doing that. We ARE special!
Marines made up their own marine corps hymn duch bag. Marines are the worlds flag ship master baiters and further you ignorant slut, there will be no flesh in heaven you television fed idiot! Marines won’t guard anything but a bogus legend of a long past and even diligent research will rebuke almost all marine propaganda such as heart break ridge……Grenada. A 75th airborne ranger op not jar head hype of force recon. Research study penis breath!
173rd airborne brigade (separate)
Have you been to heaven dumbass ! God don’t need your filth guarding His gates ! More robot shii you were fed.
I think we should just support each branch equally. Who cares which one was sent in and who had more deaths. We worked together and it should not matter. I hate this war between the Army and the Marines. I want to join the Marines and my friends that are in the Army give me crap. I hate it.
Amen to this.
As a former Marine I can’t believe how many of you veterans out there have fallen prey to Piraino’s bullshit article. A. Scott Piraino is nothing but a left-wing puke who is stirring trouble to all of you veterans who fall for his bullshit. This Yoe Hoe also puts down Ronald Reagan with the same left-wing Marxist lies. The guy needs his ass kicked by every veteran who has ever served in all branches of the military. Get a clue people. Here is one thing that all of you veterans out there can agree with. There is only a tiny fraction of Americans who are willing to put their lives on the line to protect our country, our Constitution and Bill of Rights and that’s us veterans from all of the branches. Be proud of that. That’s what gets lost on all of you people out there trying to put each other down. Why don’t we concentrate on putting down A. Scott Piraino who is a maggot of the worse kind. Fuck that asshole! Semper Fi to anyone out there in all branches of the service who were willing to serve their country. We are all in a very small minority of Americans who believe in the same principals that is not shared by the majority of people who live in America. That makes all of us special Semper Fi to that.
Mike, 0311
Wow dude, you sound like you got your PHD at the University at Moscow in the old U.S.S.R. Scott. First of all Reagan is not responsible for the deficit and neither is capitalism. What he inherited in 1980 (as all Republican presidents inherit) was the Democratic party’s legacy of big government and socialism. This country was already One Trillion in the Red when he took office and going up because of a ideology that has nothing to due with the foundation of this country. It’s that John Maynard Keynes-Karl Marx economic system of which recorded history, not you and not me, says is the worst economic system in history. You see when the Democrats (starting with FDR, then LBJ and now Hussein Obama) introduced all of the social programs to the American people which is based on socialism that Marx talks about in the communist manifesto is that they have COLAs attached to everyone of them which guarantees increases of which depending on where inflation can go – way up or down no matter who becomes president. Unfortunately when they go up in massive increases is when inflation is skyrocketing upwards like it did by time when Reagan took office in 1981. Inflation was at 13.5% and with no LIne-Item Veto he could not cut the massive increases in those social programs unless he had cooperation with the left-wing socialist democratic party of America. Unemployment was also at 10.5% and Interest rates were at 20.5% for a 30 year fixed loan – that is if you had good credit. You see what you fail to understand about socialism is that it creates deficits and mass poverty on a grand scale whereas Capitalism creates wealth not just for the rich but anyone who has ambitions to become wealthy no matter what class he comes from. By the way those tax cuts you said that were strictly for the rich under Reagan is flat out left-wing bullshit. I was a middle class worker driving a truck on a fixed income when Ronnie baby was president and saw my purchasing power increase with less taxation while at the same time getting pay raises during Reagan’s tax cut policy. Every class of worker did. You put Reagan down for our military spending which was 2.5 Trillion dollars over 8 years yet you failed to mention that before Reagan we had spent over 10 Trillion dollars on military spending along with two wars and no end to the Cold War in sight. In the Soviet archives they give credit to Ronald Reagan for ending the Cold War which started from the idiotic alliance that FDR made with the greatest political serial killer in the history of mankind and no doubt one of your political idols – JOE STALIN. Every country in the world that Ronald Reagan was not president of who has a socialist agenda like ours that was created by the Democrats are all in debt and will eventually implode on themselves just like the old Soviet Union and their satellites did. The only smart Marxist country of the bunch was Red China due to the fact that they have to many people they could not afford to have social programs like we have here with social security, medical, Medicaid, welfare benefits, benefits for illegal aliens etc etc . That is why they have real surpluses and we don’t. How ironic. We paid so much attention to ending the Cold War externally but forgot internally we have the same deadly political cancer that now has us at 18 Trillion in the Red and growing.
> “First of all Reagan is not responsible for the deficit…”
Before Reagan, the USA was the world’s largest creditor nation (i.e. the rest of the world owed us money, paid us interest); his massive deficit spending turned it into the world’s largest debtor nation (i.e. we owe the rest of the world money, pay them interest).
But even after 12 years of Reagan/Bush policies, Clinton/Gore did make some economic recoveries, and you may recall their last year actually had a budget surplus.
Unfortunately, that relied on a “peace dividend” their successor tore up and threw away, along with returning to deficit spending (among other policies), resulting in the Crash of 2008.
Pro-Army, he is an Army Dog–and his wife ran off with a Marine. The reason Marine Boot Camp is the longest, by weeks, because every Marine, from cooks to aircraft mechanics, are all Riflemen First and must qualify every year with the M-16. The reason the Army lives in Forts and Marines in Camps–the Marines are the spearhead, we seek out and destroy the enemy, so the Army can come in and build their Forts to hide behind.
Post Script: As for combining services, take the best Air Force Jet Jocks who are not afraid to land on a Carrier, incorporate them into the Navy and we can loose the Air Force. Take only the Army’s Special Op’s–and only those who can qualify and pass all Marine Corps tests; incorporate them into the Corps if they can handle the Marine Way 24/7-365….Then we can rid ourselves of the Army. Don’t forget the U.S. Navy is larger than the next five largest Navy’s in the World–combined. Also, the Marine Corp has been a Department of the Navy since Nov.10, 1775.
if we were to incorporate the army into the marines the U.S. forces would not have any actual ground pounding expertise. there are no soldiers in the marines. if this were to be done the only logical thing to do would be to incorporate the marines back into the army (as was the case with the department of war i.e. the army, where the marines came from).
the navy did not split from the department of war and become a branch of it’s own until 1794, the marines were established under the department of the navy in 1798. marines – the most elite history falsifying force in the world.
marines are overrated if the marine where not why call the army for help?
Listen to yourself you ignorant low life piece of monkey crap. “Why call the army for help”… what bull crap is that Lawrence???!! Maybe us marines sometimes need back up because WE ALL LIVE IN AMERICA YOU DUMBASS!!!! We are on the same team you idiot!! Why do you have a problem with branches helping other branches? we are all americans.. We should all be thankful for every branch we have, nobody should be talking shit on anyone.. if you are pro marine or pro army then keep it to yourself, nobody needs to hear that shit.. If you served in the US military, then you can go to bed at night knowing that you fought for this country, whether it was using your bronze or your brain, both EQUALLY important. However if you have not served in the military, thats fine, you just have no room to publicly display your two sense bull shit on which branch is better, and that goes for everyone on here. I am a current active Marine, my brother died in the Army and both of my sisters are in the Navy.. We shared/share stories and we ALL put in hard work and contributed to this nation.
Lol ! I agree with the author of the article. I saw the lack of leadership of the Marine chain of command that led to disasters thru out the province of Anbar first hand. How the Marines can claim they are better is beyond me ! I was with the 101st Airborne & the 173rd Brigade. We trained nearly 300 days a year when not deployed. The marines come no where near that level. They spend nearly 6 full months with the fleet. Thats 180 days that they get no real combat training. How can they when they are on a boat ! Its all BS ! The marines are a great proganda machine.
My God,
Even when facts are laid out, the Marines on here can’t help but get butt hurt and deny the facts in order to continue to embrace fiction.
Marines truly appear to be brain washed. I still remember the day I went to my friends graduation from Marine basic in San Diego…they were sitting in the car talking about how they were equal to “any special forces”…lol
I just shook my head in utter disbelief at the amount of arrogance that is drilled into their heads from day one.
Sadly, as historical fact shows, most of the myths Marines are fed, i.e. “devil dogs” etc. Are nothing but made up bs stories based in no reality whatsoever.
Grow up.
While you have the Navy, with some armor, we know the Air Force can deliver our armor on a larger scale and at a faster pace. The AF has more than enough C5s to put more armor on the ground than the Navy.
While you want to say its a slanted article it is fact based. The edge some Marines have is the bull they told you all in basic “mensioned in the article”. Same as the Army, but we are all proud of our branches, we just have more victories.
The Marines have done some great things, the Army has done more, because of our size and or abilities.
The marines are always waiting on the Navy, the Army we have it all. The marines are the slow ones you all have to take months getting to the war, we come in I three days, by air.
First in right, slow only because of politicians want to play favorites maybe.
Tha marines will stay or little brother, because you are not a complete unit or better.
Go Army, the best fighting force on earth! Earl D. Tuttle, Sgt., U.S. Army retired.
Not very impressive historical figures to cite when talking of the USMC. The “haberdasher” Truman disliked the Corps since his WWI days in the Army. MacArthur sent the Marines and an attachment of the Army way to far north into Korea and almost wiped out a division. Eisenhower licked Stalin’s boots. Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal went on to be committed to an insane asylum and either committed suicide or was killed. I wonder what A. Scott Piraino will follow up that group.
Only a fraction of the Army is described by your post. The Airborbe and light Infantry Brigade Combat Teams can deploy anywhere on the globe in less than a week. Nearly half of the Army’s combat power is equally mobile to the USMC. The exception would be the roughly 10,000 Marines spread across the globe afloat at any given time. This force consists of a few reinforced combat battalions. It’s almost insignificant in the arguement. The Army equivalent is the Airborne Global Response force of nearly 3000 Paratroopers who can be on enemy soil anywhere on the planet within 36 hours.
The First Unit to land that was Conventional in Afghanistan is the 101st Airborne. It tool the Marines 3 days to arrive. It’s even in General Mattis’s book Call Sign Chaos that the Marines waited on ships while Army Infantry was deployed from the USS Kitty Hawk clearing the landing zones for Marine Infantry
Your saying the Army can’t invade a beach. That’s not true.
The Heavier Units Kill more.
you know what is sad….good men have died for an article that is biased against the Marine Corps to be published like this. All I can say is…the History’s Channels series “Great Military Blunders” does give the ARMY credit…watch it sometimes…I have never seen the Marine Corps on that show!
am billy, likely you never have seen ANY marine corps from any country at ANY time on that show.
why? because marines, by nature, don’t win or lose wars.
yes, marines have fought bravely, but no more so than soldiers. to think otherwise is laughably delusional.
You do not hear about the Marine Corps blunders on Saipan because Marine leaders blame the Army.
Saipan was supposed to be secured in 10 days. It took more than 3 weeks. Marine General HM Smith had no idea of how many troops the Japanese had on Saipan, underestimated how well they would fight, had no idea of the terrain on Saipan. He and the Marine Corps did an effective job of scapegoating the Army’s 27th ID. Had the 27th ID not been on Saipan, the Marines would have never gotten off the Beach.
Peleliu was such a bloody fiasco because 1st Marine Division Commander William Rupertus had his Marines making direct frontal attacks against Japanese positions which were impregnable to frontal attack. The Marines had General Rupertus awarded a Navy cross.They blamed General MacArthur for requiring the Marines to fight a bloody battle for Peleliu.
We win the battles that make it possible to win the war. Go ahead and laugh asswipe…..the arrogance, pride, cockiness of Marines affords you the opportunity to have your opinion.
“you know what is sad….good men have died for an article that is biased against the Marine Corps to be published like this. All I can say is…the History’s Channels series “Great Military Blunders” does give the ARMY credit…watch it sometimes…I have never seen the Marine Corps on that show!”
That is because Marine PR and Marine PR keep Marine blunders out of the public eye.
fuck you turd…do I sound like a Marine now…..yes we have the best PR because we know the value of PR….just like the Army had their PR for Black Hawk Down moment when an oversealous commander was relieved of his duties for putting his men in harm’s way with faulty intelligence because he thought he was going up against second rate thugs…..
Right on.
173rd airborne.
You are real tough guy bitch typing on a keyboard. The fact is the Navy is far more important than the USMC.
Funny; I don’t see either of you refuting any of the FACTS stated in the article! Why is that, I wonder?
Well the numbers are off. The facts close, but slanted.
I quote Jerry: “You cherry pick your facts IRT Korea. Remember the US Army on the West coast of Korea was getting their asses handed to them by the Chinese while X Corps including the 1st MARDIV made a fighting retreat from Chosun. Yes we had airpower, because we pioneered the use of close air support. Task force Faith had air support too, since the 1st Mar Div assigned them forward air controllers.”
One unit which nade 1st mardiv’s escape possible was the Army’s 31st RCT, which fought to the death on the East side of the Chosin reservoir taking out two Chinese divisions, one of them reinforced.
“”The American Marine First Division has the highest combat effectiveness in the American armed forces. It seems not enough for our four divisions to surround and annihilate its two regiments. (You) should have one or two more divisions as a reserve force.”
MAO ZEDONG’s orders to Chinese General Song Shilun”
OP Smith, CG of 1st mardiv, claimed the soldiers did not fight, that they threw away their weapons and ran. If that were true, there would have been two, possibly three, Chinese Divisiohs advancing unfought down the east side of the reservoir, heading for Hagaru-ri.
“The 1st Marine Division suffered 548 killed in action, 179 missing in action and 2,834 wounded. But casualties from the cold were also terrible, a total of 3,561 evacuated with frozen hands and limbs and exposure, total losses costing the 1st Marine Division nearly one third of its own strength. At Chosin the Army task force of 3,200 men had 1,500 evacuated with wounds or frostbite. Nearly 1,300 were killed or captured.”
That
is from General Matthew Ridgeway’s description of Chosin, More soldiers than Marines died extricating 1st mardiv from Chosin,
“In all this planning there was one serious catch. The Chinese had blown out a twenty-four foot section of a bridge about a third of the way down the mountain. They could not have picked a better spot to cause us serious trouble. At this point four large pipes, carrying water to the turbines of the power plant in the valley below crossed the road. A sort of concrete substation was built over the pipes on the uphill side of the road. A one-way concrete bridge went around the substation. The drop down the mountainside was sheer. It was a section of this bridge, which was blown. There was no possibility of a by-pass.”
This is from a lettre OP Smith wrote about the retreat from Chosin.
Army engineers constructed a bridge which enabled 1st mardiv to cross the gap.
Umm, just for the record “Historian,” Nazi Germany pioneered the use if close air support in Spain, then perfected the concept in Poland.
But, maybe I’m wrong, and your drill instructor was right.
Now repeat after me, the Marine Corps invented close air support, the Marine Corp invented close air support.
Now repeat after me, the Marine Corps wrote the book on insurgency war. The Marine Corps wrote the book on insurgency war.
NO BOOT, the Army dud not defeat the Plains Indians. NO BOOT, the Army did not defeat the Philippinne insurgency. NO BOOT, the Army played no role in defeating the Boxer Rebellion. NO BOOT, the Army did nothing to defeat the El Salvador insurgents.
You say the Army re-built the bridge… I say both rebuilt… Don’t pick and choose… put the facts out…
With the path to Hungnam blocked at Funchilin Pass, eight C-119 Flying Boxcars flown by the US 314th Troop Carrier Wing were used to drop portable bridge sections by parachute.[177][178] The bridge, consisting of eight separate 18 ft (5.5 m) long, 2,900 lb (1,300 kg) sections, was dropped one section at a time, using a 48 ft (15 m) parachute on each section.[179] Four of these sections, together with additional wooden extensions were successfully reassembled into a replacement bridge by Marine Corps combat engineers and the US Army 58th Engineer Treadway Bridge Company on 9 December, enabling UN forces to proceed
Oh come on, don’t you have something better to do? If I wanted to be a soldier I would have joined the Army. I don’t want to start a war with the Army, we Marines like to say the US Army is the best Army in the world…. but it is still the Army 🙂
A couple of points about your rant. (This is too easy 🙂 :
Continental Marines: The Marines were to be employed ships hence the term Naval Service. “Resolved, that two Battalions of Marines be raised consisting of one Colonel, two Lieutenant Colonels, two Majors & Officers as usual in other regiments, that they consist of an equal number of privates with other battalions; that particular care be taken that no persons be appointed to office or inlisted into said Battalions, but such as are good seamen, or so acquainted with maritime affairs as to be able to serve to advantage by sea, when required.”
Yup, the Continental Army won the war – with a bunch on foreign professional officers and the FRENCH Army and Navy.
Gee, no mention of the wars against the Barbary Pirates or Marines Storming Chipultipec….
On the Civil War:
If the Marines are abolished half the efficiency of the Navy will be destroyed. They are as necessary to the well being of a ship as the officers. Instead of decreasing the Corps, I would rather hope to see a large increase, for we feel the want of Marines very much.
—RAdm David D. Porter in letter to Col Commandant John Harris, 6th CMC, 6 Dec. 1863
On WWI:
The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle!
—General John J. “Black Jack” Pershing, USA
And this:
Why in the Hell can’t the Army do it if the Marines can; they are all the same kind of men, why can’t they be like Marines?
—In a letter to HQMC, dated 12 Feb. 1918, concerning a inspection of Marines by Gen John J. “Black Jack” Pershing, CinC, AEF
No mention of the Marines in the Boxer rebellion or the “banana wars” such as Haiti, Costa Rico, Nicaragua, etc. Weak.
The Iwo Jima flag raising was not staged. Joe Rosenthal, who took the picture, repeatedly said it was not, and the reason a second flag was raised is that the first was too small to see from the beach and the commanders wanted the Marines see that Mount Suribachi was secured.
You cherry pick your facts IRT Korea. Remember the US Army on the West coast of Korea was getting their asses handed to them by the Chinese while X Corps including the 1st MARDIV made a fighting retreat from Chosun. Yes we had airpower, because we pioneered the use of close air support. Task force Faith had air support too, since the 1st Mar Div assigned them forward air controllers.
In reply to President Truman’s comment on Marines:
I sincerely regret the unfortunate choice of language, which I used in my letter of Aug 29 to Congress McDonough concerning the Marine Corps…
—President Harry S Truman, 6 Sept. 1950, letter to Gen Clifton B. Cates, 19th CMC
Let’s not forget this about Chosun:
I’m going to fight my way out, I’m going to take all my equipment and all my wounded and as many dead as I can. If we can’t get out this way, this Division will never fight as a unit again.
—MajGen Oliver P. Smith, CG, lstMarDiv, Korea, 1950, to LtGen Ned Almond, USA, X Corps, who suggested Smith’s division escape the Chosin Reservoir by letting “every man go out on foot by himself.”
You have a inferiority complex over Vietnam.
Let’s mention Grenada:
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of the island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwest corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
—Gen John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman JCS, during the assault on Grenada, 1983
One of My personal Favorites…
Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have ever made a difference in the world, but the Marines don’t have that problem.
—President Ronald Reagan
I participated in Desert Shield/Storm and OEF and OIF.
Personally I – and I think the American people – like the way things are. Here is an idea. Absorb the US Army into the Marine Corps. Yes, that would do nicely….. I wonder if we can both agree we should undo 1947 and put the Air Force back under the Army? Now that is an idea!
Now that you have me worked up I think I’ll go pick a fight with a sailor….
I remember the Marine companies were shooting each other in Grenada. This is why Gen Vessey made that statement. The marines were lost, shot each other, had to be pulled out and sent on their way to the mid-east. The individual marine is tough and brave, no doubt about it. However, their leadership is horrendous. They squander the treasure of young marines; every historical triumph of the corps is a miserable lesson in failed leadership made good by the individual marine. This is a “mob” mentality and is not sound tactically, in any service.
Well csm Smith, Your memory failed you! 2/8 spent 4 days running around on the island “Take’in IT” While the army was pinned down at point Salinas the whole time! And yes the Marines were pulled out after 5 days. Because it was over!
your quote; On December 11, 2011 at 4:04 pm Cpl Dudley (usmc) ret said:
Well csm Smith, Your memory failed you! 2/8 spent 4 days running around on the island “Take’in IT” While the army was pinned down at point Salinas the whole time! And yes the Marines were pulled out after 5 days. Because it was over!
the Army was pinned down because they were Air-borne troop that went into battle with what they have on their back. while Marine came ashore with armour, artillery, air and naval support. If the Army Mech. unit was there it would have been a cake walk, so don’t too excited. remember Marine were 5 to 6 late to Bagdad? does that mean Marine can’t fight? no
Why is it that Marine love to spike the ball on the Army everytime they perform a little better on the battle field? if Army would have keep track of Marine screw up and poor performance (like Marine seem to do with the Army then teach it to new recruit) on the battle field we would have a very lenghty document, but then again the Army doesn’t care about that kind thing.
if there was 100 battles and 3 of it was fought by the Marine you would know date, time, temperature, weather, and all slogan that came from that battle and the other 197 battles fought by the Army will harder get mention.
Marine,
win battles; (even if the Army and other branch fight along side) take all the credit
loose battle; blame other branch, usually Navy but mainly Army
Spoken by a true hooah bitch. I’ve trained with the army. It’s a joke. All I need to say is Jessica lynch and the battle of fallujah. Where was the army then
Actually while the Marines were rescuing Jessica Lynch the Army was 140 miles north fighting their way to Baghdad.
fallujah? really? last I checked the marines LOST fallujah, FAILED to take it back on their own, and had to call the ARMY to help them take it back… not a good argument kid.
To the guy below mentioning fallujah and asking where the army was….
2/2 Inf and 2/7 Cav kicked the door in. Sorry to burst your bubble hard charger….
I remember the Marines took over Fallujah from the 82nd, then the Blackwater men, took a wrong turn and got strung up on the Bridge, The Marines started taking over Fallujah then was stopped by Politics… Had they let them finish the job the first time the Army wouldn’t have had anything to do with Fallujah.
The U.S. had gathered some 6,500 Marines and 1,500 Army soldiers that would take part in the assault. Everybody worked well and the Army 7th Cav was requested by the Marines to join them due to the armor they could support with. And because they were a well recognized unit by the Marine Corp, Actually after the battle they are the only Army unit that can wear a Marine Corp patch on their uniform.
The U.S. Army’s 2nd Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation for actions during the battle.Additionally, Operation Phantom Fury yielded two nominees for the Medal of Honor. Sergeant Rafael Peralta with 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, one of the two, was eventually awarded the Navy Cross, the second highest military valor award.
First Sergeant Bradley Kasal of 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines was also awarded the Navy Cross for his actions during the battle. Staff Sergeant David Bellavia of the Army’s Task Force 2-2 Infantry was also nominated for the Medal of Honor, though awarded the Silver Star, for his actions during the battle.
Staff Sergeant Aubrey McDade with Bravo Co, 1st Battalion 8th Marines was also awarded the Navy Cross, the second highest military valor award.
Corporal Dominic Esquibel with H&S Company, Scout Sniper Platoon, 1st Battalion 8th Marines was awarded the Navy Cross for his actions on 25 Nov 2004 in Fallujah. In a rare move, Cpl. Esquibel cited “personal reasons” and refused the award.
In fact there were many Army and Marine units involved as well as Navy and Airforce. By saying the Army kicked in the Door is bullshit. They certainly played their part however if the 82nd had patrolled Fallujah as they should have to begin with their would not have been a second taking of the city or possibly a first.
Ummmm actually, U.S. Army special forces rescued Jessica Lynch. Not the marines. Do some research.
Oh Bullshit
Its Marines, not marines. An the Marines are America’s Expeditionary Force. Cry Baby
“Gee, no mention of the wars against the Barbary Pirates or Marines Storming Chipultipec….”
The assault on Derna was organized and led by retired Army officer William Eaton who had recruited a force of 500 mercenaries for the assault.He had 8 marines, Lt. Pressley O’Bannon, his Sergeant, and six privates. Marines did not play a significant role in the capture of Derna.
Marines did not capture Chapultepec. The troops who scaled the walls and took the castle were Soldiers, not Marines. The Marines role in the assault on Chapultepec was to hold their position outside the walls and fire on the walls.
Eaton “was” a commissioned Army Officer until he became Consul to Tunis. In 1804, he was commissioned a Naval Lieutenant. He was a Naval Officer, commanding a detachment of Marines, commanded by Lieutenant Presley O’Bannon. The Marines distinguished themselves, and made history.
Per Maj. Gen. Scott in his after action report to Sec. of War Macy – “The following are the officers and corps most distinguished in those brilliant operations: … portions of the United States marines, New York, South Carolina, and 2d Pennsylvania volunteers, which, delayed with their division (Quitman’s), by the hot engagement below, arrived just in time to participate under Lieutenant Reid, New York volunteers, consisting of a company of the same, with one of marines; and another detachment, a portion of the storming-party (Twiggs’ division, serving with Quitman), under Lieutenant Steele, 2d infantry, after the fall of Lieutenant Gantt, 7th infantry.” At least one Marine company was in the storming party, making your post erroneous. It’s right there, in black and white. Look it up, and don’t just throw out bu11sh1t.
“I’m going to fight my way out, I’m going to take all my equipment and all my wounded and as many dead as I can. If we can’t get out this way, this Division will never fight as a unit again.
—MajGen Oliver P. Smith, CG, lstMarDiv, Korea, 1950, to LtGen Ned Almond, USA, X Corps, who suggested Smith’s division escape the Chosin Reservoir by letting “every man go out on foot by himself.”
You do not mention that OP Smith abandoned the 31st RCT and then claimed they threw away their weapons and ran.
It was Almond that flew into RCT 3 on the west side of the Chosin and told that their forces were adequate and sent them North into the meat grinder. He and only he was in charge of both Marine and Army units. The Marines took their orders as usual from an Army General. If you claim the Marines left RCT 3, your totally mistaken, it was the Army LtGen Almond.
Historians have criticized Almond for the wide dispersal of his units during the X Corps invasion of the north-eastern part of North Korea, in November–December 1950. This dispersal contributed to the defeat of X Corps by Chinese troops, including the destruction of Task Force Faith, and the narrow escape of the Marines at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir.[8] Almond was slow to recognize the scale of the Chinese attack on X Corps, urging Army and Marine units forward despite the huge Chinese forces arrayed against them. Displaying his usual boldness, he underestimated the strength and skill of the Chinese forces, at one point telling his subordinate officers “The enemy who is delaying you for the moment is nothing more than remnants of Chinese divisions fleeing north. We’re still attacking and we’re going all the way to the Yalu. Don’t let a bunch of Chinese laundrymen stop you.” As stated by a close associate: “When it paid to be aggressive, Ned was aggressive. When it paid to be cautious, Ned was aggressive” [9]
“Yup, the Continental Army won the war – with a bunch on foreign professional officers and the FRENCH Army and Navy.”
The Continental Army won the Battles of Trenton and Princeton. Marine participation in the Battle of Princeton was minimal. No marines fought at Trenton.
If not for Trenton and Princeton there would have been no Battle of Saratoga. The Continental Army’s victory at Saratoga is what convinced France to Ally with the United States. That alliance made possible the victory at Yorktown.
it was Valley Forge which rendered George Washington’s Army capable of pulling off Yorktown.
No Marines fought at Saratoga or were with the Continental Army at Valley Forge. The only Marines at Yorktown were 800 Royal Marines who were part of Cornwallis’ Army.
“Yup, the Continental Army won the war – with a bunch on foreign professional officers and the FRENCH Army and Navy.”
The troops who won the Battle of Trenton were soldiers.
In the prelude to the Second Battle of Trenton, a French officer named Fermoy was to command a brigade tasked to delay Cornwallis’ advance on Trenton. He got drunk and an American, Colonel Edward Hand, took charge. He conducted an effective delaying action.
Washington’s Army repulsed Cornwallis when Cornwallis attempted to cross Assunpink Creek.
Washingon’s Army of 5000, which included 141 Continental Marines but no foreign officers and troops, attacked and demolished Cornwallis’ rear guard at Princeton. The Marines played a minor role in that battle. It was the only time in the Revolution that Continental Marines engaged British troops in a pitched battle. The Marine Battalion took heavy casualties It was disbanded after Princeton and most of its survivors joined the Continental Army.
Meanwhile, after three defeats at the hands of the Continental Army, the British withdrew from all of New Jersey except for a couple of outposts. The Revolution, which was on the brink of ending in December of 1776, continued. Trenton and Princeton, two of the most critical victories in American Military History, were ARMY operations.
Trenton and Princeton made possible the third critical victory in American Military History, the victory at Saratoga. The American Army which won Saratoga had no foreign troops, no foreign officers AND NO MARINES. It was the victory at Saratoga which induced France to enter the war as an Ally of the United States.
Two officers in the Continental Army had previous experience with the British Army, Horatio Gates and Charles Lee. Neither proved to be an effective officer in American service. Gates got credit for Saratoga, but it was his subordinates, especially Benedict Arnold, who fought the battle. Unfortunately, Benedict Arnold did turn traitor.
The Continental Army did become an effective force because of foreign officers who served, particularly General von Steuben. The Continental Marine Corps never demonstrated it was as capable of the Continental Army.
The French did not accomplish anything decisive in the Revolution until the siege of Yorktown. The Yorktown operation was George Washington’s brain child. I point out again, the only Marines at Yorktown were 800 British Royal Marines who were part of Cornwallis’ Army.
Because of the foreign officers and with the French Army the Continental Army, WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM THE CONTINENTAL MARINES, won the Revolutionary War. After the war the Marines were disbanded. The Army continued in existence
“If I wanted to be a soldier I would have joined the Army.”
If you had become a Soldier, you would have become a part of the Armed Force which was the first Armed Force to fight in defense of the nation, a part of the Armed Force which won the most crucial battles of US History, Trenton, Princeton, Saratoga, Yorktown. You would have been part of the only Armed Force which has defended the nation continuously for 236 years, you would have been part of the Armed Force which assaulted and captured Chapultepec Castle.
If you increase the size of the Corps, you do away with the “FEW and the proud” and it becomes “the proud”. The Marines have their ego because of their size. Were they any larger, their ego would fade. Especially when they would have to shorten their basic training due to costs, like the Army has. I don’t know why the Army/Marine rivalry bothers me as much as it does, but I can’t stop being bothered by it.
Marines have some bad moments battle of kingfisher Vietnam they left marines behind..
Fake news. More jarhead propaganda. MARINES ARE NOT SPECIAL!
Great article.
I’m glad to see I’m not the only soldier fed up with the blusterous braggadocio of the USMC.
It doesn’t take some holy bath in ‘the crucible’ to be able to fight Americas enemies effectively. In fact, that is just a little too cult-like for rational people.
Reduce the duplication, slash the corps!
Yes, Harry, if you were a Marine you could be one of those blusterous braggadocio. Until then, keep your fuvking mouth shut,,, pussy.
Why do the Marines try to claim credit for Army accomplishments?
Really? Such professionalism from a Marine. You go to boot camp for 13 weeks and come out thinking you’re such a badass. Don’t go around giving the Marines a bad rep dammit.
Marines love the Corps more than their Country. Soldiers love their country more than the Army. You will die for the Corps, Soldiers will die for their country. Keep spouting more jarhead propaganda.
You should have maned up and joined the Corps. But, you probably thought it was too tuff so you settled. Sounds like the Army’s strategy. I am a Marine. I love Army guys. I kept 1 or 2 around to shine my boots. I have never hear a Marine say I almost joined the Army. But, usually every Army person I meet say I almost joine the Marine Corps.
There’s nothing tuff about joining the marines. Math and reading that would be tuff for a Jarhead.
My sister was a marine. Girls graduate from parris island.
Yes I said I at first wanted to join the marine crop, but change my mind because the army was fighting most of the battles and wanted to be a part of the fight. so I join the army and not a moment sorry. better training leadership and equipment to fight with. the last time I heard a nva commander say avoid a fight with the 101st abn because you are going to lose never heard him say avoid the us marines.
Your jarhead propaganda, historical distortions, embellishments are far from the truth. No Soldier would shine your boots. You are not special because your a Marine. Plenty of jarheads in the Army after the Corps discarded them like trash. Also almost every single jarhead in the Army claims they where “Force Recon”. We do not need two Armies let alone a department of a branch that seems to believe they are more elite than everything else. Jarheads are not special.
the jealousy ofthe marines here is hilarious. yes. we are better and whats more, the entire nation knowsit. just ask a civilian. sorry that all the army guys on here are so upset they had to make a website trying to validate themselves. good luck with that. lol
Be careful. You might hurt yourself patting yourself on the back so hard.
Uh, hate to rain on your self congrats but you might want to check yourself. According to Gallup the American people have rated the Army as the most important of all branches since ’04 and the Army has always been rated more important than the USMC since it got included in the polling.
i left the Army after 5 years active duty as a grunt with th e 82nd Division. I went to A University to prepare for another career. While serving as a squad leader in the Army Reserves we had a dozen Marines nearly 10 years younger than myself. They were unable to outperform me and my army buddies in basic physical fitness. the few and the proud were left in the dust. All hype and propaganda from the corps, Knock off the bullshit!
So you out ran weekend warriors after 5 years of active duty? Wow why an accomplishment, oh wait I smell bullshit. When did the marine reserves start training with army reserves. I’ve never heard of it especially during pt. Don’t give me this bullshit that you are in better shape. I’ve seen ten times as many fat soldiers than marines. In Kuwait, Iraq, back home. The physical standards are higher in the corps. The only idiots your convincing are the rest of the soldiers on here. And even if you did out run them they are civilians that play marine 2 days a month. Reserves don’t count.
Jealous of what? Any civilian that watch a marine commercial would get excited because they don’t know any better. Marines are no better than any other branch especially the Army. So keep walking around in your little cute uniforms yelling ooorah look at me I want attention. Sad
Keep spouting your jarhead propaganda. Jarheads are not special. You are not better due to having a longer boot and sub par equipment. Jarheads love the Corps more than their country, facts.
Hey Buddy, you sound like there is a bit of penis envy on your part. I’ll start by letting you know the Marine Corps. Birthday is Nov. 10 1775. Actually a couple days older than the US Army. Check it out. It’s fact. I could do this all day on every one of your pointless statements. I’ll end with… Every man or woman who ever joined the Army knows in their hearts why they chose 8 weeks over 12 weeks of Boot Camp. Its because every kid whomever thinks of being in the Military has been told or learned during their decision that the Army is a more easily acheivable goal and that the Marines are the hardest and toughest and craziest fuckers of the 4 branches of service. So seriously, Dude, the next time you want to go on a tyraid agianst my Illustrious Marine Corps. You might want to make sure from people who were there that maybe it’s an embarrassing fact. You Army Pups retreated like a bunch of crying BITCHES at the FROZEN CHOSEN and left your Dead behind. Lucky for those greiving families back home, Chesty Puller and the rest of the Devil Dogs finished the job and brought back your wounded and dead back. Might want to check your facts. Quit being so gealous and make some of your own history. PS the Banana wars… yeah we were the stars of that as well. Good luck you FUCKING ARMY PUKE. You were right though… you are soilders and we are not. WE ARE WARRIORS!!!!!
“You Army Pups retreated like a bunch of crying BITCHES at the FROZEN CHOSEN and left your Dead behind. Lucky for those greiving families back home, Chesty Puller and the rest of the Devil Dogs finished the job and brought back your wounded and dead back. Might want to check your facts.”
A little checking of the facts is indeed in order here. This is a myth which has nothing to do with reality. For the true story of the Army’s 31st RCT at Chosin, please read “East of Chosin” by Roy E. Appleman. In 2000, Task Force Faith was finally awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for its heroic actions in 1950. Among the men who helped push for this long delayed recognition were many Marine veterans of Chosin, including retired Marine Col. Robert Parrott, who said “Maybe I’m talking to you now because of what the Army did.” A Washington Post article states that “…a number of historians and some Marine veterans of Chosin now believe that the 1st Marine Division might have been destroyed had the poorly armed, ill-trained soldiers of Task Force Faith not brought time by keeping the Chinese from sweeping south. Chinese papers reviewed in recent years by military scholars have shown that the Army task force fought a significantly larger enemy force than commonly understood.”
Many American dead, both Marines and Army, still lie in unmarked graves in Korea. Perhaps we should remember them and what they fought and died for instead of denigrating fellow Americans just because they serve in a different branch.
The 1st Marine saved no one but theselves, and that was with the assistance of the Army’s 31st RCT.
What would have happened to the Marines had the Chinese taktn Hungnam? X Corps held Hungnam and formed a perimeter around Hungnam to keep the Chinese at bay while 1st Marine Division was embarked. They did not give up Hungnam until 1st Marine Division was safe.
The Facts…. The Army had very little to defend at Hungnam.
By the time the UN forces arrived at Hungnam, MacArthur had already ordered the evacuation of the US X Corps on 8 December in order to reinforce the US Eighth Army, which by then was badly depleted and retreating rapidly towards the 38th parallel. Following his orders, the ROK I Corps, the ROK 1st Marine Regiment, the US 3rd Infantry Division and the US 7th Infantry Division had also set up defensive positions around the port. Some skirmishes broke out between the defending US 7th, 17th and 65th Infantry and the pursuing PVA 27th Corps, but against the strong naval fire support provided by US Navy Task Force 90, the badly mauled 9th Army was in no shape to approach the Hungnam perimeter. In what US historians called the “greatest evacuation movement by sea in US military history”, a 193-ship armada assembled at the port and evacuated not only the UN troops, but also their heavy equipment and roughly a third of the Korean refugees. One Victory ship, the SS Meredith Victory evacuated 14,000 refugees. The last UN unit left at 14:36 on 24 December, and the port was destroyed to deny its use to the Chinese and North Korean forces. The PVA 27th Corps entered Hungnam on the morning of 25 December.
Dear US marines:
if you had even normal levels of mental capacity you would collectively know your facts and history much better. The US Army’s birthday is 14 June 1775(I even know this and I am a foreigner). It is odd you attempt to belittle the US Army as it founded the United States with George Washington at its helm. There would be no America without the US Army as the marines no role in Revolution of the US. As a foreigner, I find it unseemly and peculiar the manner in which US marines carry themselves. It seems the marines possess a large and pathological inferiority complex.
For the record, I am a French military affairs writer and commentator for CNN and live in Lyon, France. I have no partiality as a foreigner but have done extensive research into the American military and its general history for more than 40 years. I have spent 8 months in Iraq and 7 months in Afghanistan. I witnessed the marine defeat at Fallujah I and fig-leaf withdrawal and replacement
by former Sadam forces. In fact, it was the US Army that defeated insurgent and Al Queda forces and restored honor back to the US.
Embarrassingly,US marines were the only allied force to have lost a battle in the Iraq conflict. They repeatedly called on US Army forces to save the day and spearhead attacks. Fallujah II is one case in point where the US army was called in to save the day for incompetent and feeble marines.The TV show “Return to Fallujah” a History Channel production is available on youtube for needing proof of my words. It shows the Army as victors in Fallujah II as the marines followed after the victory was already won.
Also for the record, rants and personal attacks on Mr. Piraino are unethical and unfounded. I personally have checked his research and found it without error. Sadly, the facts he has compiled are embarrassing to the US marines but this does not make them untrue. Unfortunately, those rabid marines who attacked have little or no facts to back up there baseless assertions.
Marines should be humble and professional and not falsely arrogant as many marines have shown themselves on this site. Shame on the US marines.
Thanks to the US army for helping to keep the peace around the world. My research has shown the US Army to be the best ground force in the history of the world bar none. Marines should be intelligent enough to learn from the Army’s sterling example. Indeed, It is sad to see US marines die in disproportionate numbers due to their own incompetence and arrogance.
… You’re a retard who has provided no proof of who he is or what he is spewing. The Marines aren’t the be all and end all of military affairs, but they’re not third-rate third-world incompetent conscripts like you seem to suggest.
Nicholas,
You are wrong, the Marines ARE the be all and end all of military affairs
yea im not sure where you got your facts from but they arent correct
Bullshit buddy. I was there. It was the marines the took over fallujah ass. I’m sure you’re a foreigner cause you weren’t there. The army had it then lost it. The the marines went in and killed over 1200 insurgents. Get your facts straight.
Bullshit buddy. I was there. It was the marines that took over fallujah ass. I’m sure you’re a foreigner cause you weren’t there. The army had it then lost it. Then the marines went in and killed over 1200 insurgents. Get your facts straight.
The Army lead the Marines in retaking Falujah with two mechanized battalions. Check your history. I have the Marine written history (and Army) posted later in the thread
Dear Nicholas, True, the marines aren’t the be all and end all of military affairs, and they’re not even third-rate, third-world incompetent conscripts, but the jury does still remain out on whether or not they are fairly comparable to second-rate, second-world conscripts.
We will likley never know the marine corps’ true miltary prowess and worth. They staunchly refuse to deploy, even under emergency conditions, without overwhelming air and gun support. It has also been documented that the marine corps institutionally doctors its official journals and records. Given those two factors, it is likely we will never know the marine corps’ true combat worthiness. As an emergency expeditionary force, examples of marine corps ability and capability should be abundent, but none exhists. Given their mission, and lack of evidence to the contrary, the marine corps must always always be considered second-rate to the the Ranger battalions, and given its own documented achievements, the 82nd Airborne Division.
hey retard, the army birthday is june 14 1775. last i checked even marine calendars put june before november in order.
one more reason why marines are all brawn, no brain.
well not all are, but you definitely fulfill that “misconception”.
“Hey Buddy, you sound like there is a bit of penis envy on your part. I’ll start by letting you know the Marine Corps. Birthday is Nov. 10 1775. Actually a couple days older than the US Army. Check it out. It’s fact”
The Continental Army was organized on 14 June 1775, approximately 5 months before the Continental Marine Corps.
Before the Continental Marine Corps came into existence, troops who would form the Continental Army had fought the Battles of Lexington and Concord, had established the siege of Boston, captured Fort Ticonderoga, transported heavy artillery from Ticonderoga to Boston, and invaded Canada.
The Continental Army, with no help from the Marines or any foreign power, won the first victory of the Revolution, the capture of Bodton.
Like many Marines, you disrespect the Army while trying to take credit for Army accomplishments, You do this by lying about history,
“You Army Pups retreated like a bunch of crying BITCHES at the FROZEN CHOSEN and left your Dead behind.”
The 31st RCT saved the First Marine Division at Chosin.
Army dead were left behind Because Marine General Oliver P. Smith sacrificed the 31st RCT to save the Marines.
And like a typical Marine, he went into denial that the Army actually saved the Marines’ butts.
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.
The events at chosin were the result of the ego of a worn out primadonna named dugout doug macarthur. Backed up by his yes-man general ned almond, a guy who couldn’t find his ass with both hands and a sherpa to guide him.
The chi-com presence on the battlefield was noted, reported and ignored. Like General Lee a hundred years prior, he started believing his own bullsh×t. He was relieved of his command. He was replaced by Matthew Ridgeway. That wasn’t because douglas was infallible.
“Quit being so gealous(sic) and make some of your own history.”
The Army has made its own history, a lot of which the Marine Corps has tried to claim as its own:
Fighting in the Battle of Trenton
Anchoring Andrew Jackson’s line at New Orleans
Storming the Castle of Chapultepec
Single handedly turning back the German Army in the Second Battle of the Marne
Defending the Bataan Peninsula
Single handedly winning the Battle for Guadalcanal(more soldiers than marines fought on Gualdalcanal)
Taking Okinawa(most of the fighting, bleeding and dying was done by Soldiers, not Marines)
Single handedly saving Korea(Soldiers went into Korea before the Marines, fought well enough to establish the Pusan Perimeter and bought time for the Marines to be able to deploy their own ground troops)
To what I have already said, I add:
The 105th Infantry, with no assistance from the Marines, defeated the final Japanese attack on Saipan, the Gyokusai on July 7, 1944. Marines claim a Marine Artillery uniit, 3/10 Marines stopped the attack.
3/10 Marines was overrun by the Japanese, taking heavy casualties and losing all their guns. They were rescued by another Army Regiment, the 106th infantry. 106th Infantry recovered their guns
To paraphrase: Marines, quit being so jealous of the Army and make some of your own history.
More soldiers than Marines Occupied Guadacanal. Not to say that they were not a major force, however they arrived on the canal 2 months after the Marines had been fighting and had taken the airfield and renamed it Henderson Field.
No way and this is a bunch of Army BS. Fact the Corps serves a greater roll in our Countries military history. Fact the Corps is fewer in number and cheaper to train and harder then any other branch of military service in the world. All of the facts (so called facts are debunked ) Yes by men and women who served proudly in our Corps. We are brought up not to lie cheat steal as this would sully our outstanding rep. Most soldiers in the Army are good men and women no doubt but check the history The highest ranking General officers in the Army have awarded the Corps many times over Gen. Douglas ( dug out Doug . Said there isn’t a finer fighting force than the Marines. Fact Korea also we have something you don’t have and that is a brotherhood a strong bond that lasts forever. Chosen please it was the Marines under an awesome Warrior most decorated combat officer in history. CHESTY PULLER ordered Marines to take equipment abandoned by the Army and requisition it. You also left wounded and dead behind don’t worry we took care of that for you. WW 1. Devil Dog is a fact because they heard the battle cry and it scared them true. I can go on and on please you guys have tanks out the ass and we are supposed to keep up. And we are the ones that get it done all this shit about Airborn they don’t jump until Anglico. Clears the way pussy.
Defending bataan? Really? What was Lt. Calley? Just a little over-excited? Beau Bergdahl, lt col vindman, bradley/chelsea manning? General miley compelling everybody to study a bunch of marxist horse sh×t when the world is about to explode and the force couldn’t fight it’s way out of a wet paper bag.
The surrender in afghanistan should have been all the proof required to say the army can’t eat what’s on it’s plate now.
You go to BASIC TRAINING for only four more weeks and come out thinking you’re Jesus Christ or some shit. Get your shit straight dammit, don’t go around giving the Marines a bad image. You look down on the Army. The Army was in D-Day, biggest amphibious invasion in the last century, if not history. Army fought the SS. If you really want to be such a badass, try something like the Navy SEALs or Army Rangers. Those “pukes” will make you shit yourself without even touching you.
CPL the Army Birthday is 14 June 1775. You do know that June comes before Nov in the calendar?
As for Chosin an understrength ad hoc Army regiment held the Marines eastern flank against a proportionally greater enemy (two Chinese divisions) than the Marines faced for three days and was decimated. In return they saved the Marine supply dump and assembly area which allowed the breakout.
Read Appleman’s “East of Chosin”. The unit recieved a NAVY Presidential unit citaion. The commander was awarded the Medal of Honor. Just about every company commander and higher commander was killed.
The rest of your rant reflects even worse on you than the above two errors.
Majrod,
You’re in error about the 31st RCT.. Lt. Col Faith was not the commander until after Col. MacLean had been shot and captured by Chinese forces. Appleman’s “East of Chosin” is also a bit biased towards the Army side of things for the 31st RCT. While it uses recently released Chinese documents, the translation of them is a bit.. skewed in Appleman’s book to say the least. the 31st RCT did fight a tragic, heroic battle but ultimately they were done in by some poor leadership from Col. MacLean who did not prepare for any sort of attack even though he was warned of extensive enemy activity in the area by the 5th Marine unit he replaced – and after losing his own recon platoon after sending them out to scout the route of advance for the planned attack the next morning. They were deployed poorly with little to no thought for lines of communication or how the surrounding mountains would prevent their radios from keeping contact with each other. Lt. Col Faith and Major Storms did a valiant job in keeping the 31st together, but from speaking to soldiers who were there, the rest of the officer corps with the 31st left a lot to be desired. Hell, MajGen Almond still had them with orders to advance and attack on the third day when they were effectively incapacitated as a fighting force.
Also, Appleman’s book somewhat de-emphasizes the role of the Navy and Marine Air Wings that provided support during the daylight hours. Marine Capt. Stamford’s F.O. radio was about the only link to the rest of the UN forces the 31st had. Between his calls for airstrikes and to get resupplied, it could be said the 31st would not have been able to stand as long as they did without that support.
The whole thing is an ugly episode between the two services that seems to be perpetuated by those who weren’t there seeking to lay blame on someone other than the high command of MacArthur, Almond and to some degree Walker. The Marines, Koreans and Soldiers I know who fought at the Chosin certainly don’t have anything but respect and camaraderie for each other.
Mike, How is Appleman biased towards the Army? It was an Army fight. What Chinese translations exactly are skewed? After reading your comments I think you’re the one that’s biased.
Yes MacLean was the commander of the 31st RCT for less than 36 hours of the action until he was shot four times, captured and subsequently died. LTC Faith took command of the task force from the morning of the 29 Nov until the early morning of 1 Dec. He commanded during the most desperate fighting.
MacClean did not prepare for an attack? How so? Poor positioning? He occupied the Marine positions. Were they poorly situated? Artillery fires registered, LP/OP positioned, security set. Granted he didn’t expect an attack but everyone was surprised when the Chinese attacked. Securing his lines of communication? He was ordered to occupy the Marines positions while missing one of his three battalions making the Army regiment (already 30% smaller than Marine formations) another 30% understrength. BTW, the Marines didn’t secure their LOC either. That’s why they were cut off. It’s hardly appropriate to ding MacLean for not securing his LOC when the destruction of his unit is what gave the Marines time to secure theirs.
Where is there ANY evidence that MacLean was warned of extensive enemy activity? The Marines captured enemy deserters who warned of enemy strength the day before the attack and sent the intel to corps but did not notify the 31st RCT.
The men didn’t speak well of their officers? Specifically what officers didn’t do their duty cited by what soldier? It’s frankly incredible the number of awards for valor that were awarded to officers alone because they led at Chosin. LTC Faith was awarded the Medal of Honor, MacLean the Distinguished Service Cross (posthumously), along with MAJ Jones, LTs Gray & Jodan. The unit received a Presidential Unit Citation. All but one of it’s Bn commanders survived the battle unwounded. Most battalions lost ALL their company commanders and many of their LT’s. You won’t find one Marine BN that suffered the same casualties among the leadership that the 31st RCT suffered.
As for Marine Air, Appleman cites it repeatedly. No one except LTC Faith is mentioned more than CPT Stamford the Marine who called in the air. How much more credit do you want in a battle that had 3000 soldiers and three Marines on the ground?
BTW, the Marines didn’t wait to be relieved by the 31st RCT. They left their positions before the 31st arrived and did not hand off sector sketches, fire plans or any of the other customary coordination when a unit is relieved. The Marines never attempted to establish contact with the 31st RCT which is doctrinal (higher to lower). The Marines never attempted to relieve or break through top the 31st RCT and once they gained control of the 31st’ tank company forbade it be used to conduct a breakthrough or relief. Don’t think the Marines were to blame. They were in a fight for their lives but maybe they should be the last to throw stones
Agree that many have inappropriately made much of Chosin. Your comments about the officers falls into that category as well as 20/20 hindsight as to what intel was available.
CHESTY PULLER, and I quote; “LEAVE THOSE GOD DAMN ARMY DEAD HERE.”
Fuck You CPL of Marines, whoever the fuck you are. Fuck you! Puller abandoned the Army dead only because they were Army dead. So…Fuck You Cpl of Marines or whatever gay name you gave yourself.
We Army “Pups” retreated like a bunch of crying Bitches?” And “Left our Dead behind?” Really? Who told you that? Let me tell you something, I was there.
What infamously became known as Task Force Faith, and was officially titled Regimental Combat Team 31, was in fact only two battalions, the 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry, and the 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry, supported by the 57th Field Artillery Battalion. Our mission was to guard the right flank of the Marine’s advance.
On the night of November 27 we were hit by three regiments of the 80th Chinese Division. The 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry initially took very heavy casualties to the north on the hills north of Sinhung-Ni, while 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry and the artillery battalion were nearly overrun to the west near the Sinhung-Ni inlet. With overwhelming numbers, the Chinese effectively carved RCT 31 into three seperated elements. At dawn, the remnants of 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry counterattacked toward the inlet to allow 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry a way back from the north. Subsequent information released by Chinese sources confirmed the Chinese 238th and 239th Regiments fielded about 600 effectives after the initial fight. But the Chinese had moved a second divison, the 81st, and its 242nd Regiment took Hill 1221, effectively sealing RCT 31 in along the far shore of the Chosin.
At some point during the fighting, the 1st Marine Division was ordered to effect RCT 31’s relief. General Smith offered a half-assed attempt to save the Army unit by releasing only the 31st Tank Company. from Yudam-NI. They had but a handful of tanks, a tough mission,and were courageous, but when the Marine’s 31st Tank Company attacked Hill 1221 to open the road for the survivors of RCT 31, they were quickly and badly manhandled.
Those Army “Pukes” eventually fought their own way out, taking a portion of Hill 1221, and fighting through s succession of Chinese roadblacks, all while fighting off constant flanking attacks from the surrounding hills.
Yes cpl of marines, we “crying bitches” did leave many of our dead behind, because all our vehicles were destroyed in the savage fighting to the northeast of your amazing 1st Marine Division. And of the 2,522 “Crying Bitches” of RCT 31 that moved northeast to protect the 1st Marine Division’s flank, 1,472 were Killed In Action, 665 returned to “friendly lines” Wounded In Action, and 385 returned ready to continue the fight. The survivors were formed into a provisional battalion, and did continue the fight.
And of course, your vaunted 1st Marine Division didn’t retreat from Chosin. What did they do? Oh yeah, they just advanced in a different direction. Right? Isn’t that what your learned at Parris Island? Keep telling yourself that.
So, cpl of marines, your disparaging of brave American war dead and wounded is obsene. And don’t you dare speak of our grieving families back home, because you are singularly an absolute embarassmant to the Marine Corps. I have never met a combat veteran who has ever insulted combat casualties the way you have. Honestly, the only people I have ever heard talk like you talk, are rear area types who never carried a rifle into battle and watched friends die. During my tour in Vietnam with 7th Special Forces Group, we called people like you Garrett Troopers. In case your French is fuzzy, garrett is French for barracks. And as OUR song says:
“Now I run into one the other day. Said he just got back from three days runnin’ fire against the Cong. Said he captured a lot of loot. Know what I saw when I looked down? A spit shine boot! Yeah, they’re troopers…Garrett Troopers.”
That’s what you are cpl of marines, a Garrett Trooper. An ass-wipe phony, disparaging incredibly brave American servicemen heroically killed and wounded in battle. So, as I said before, Fuck You!
Oh, and fuck your General Smith too, and your Colonel Puller, who probably killled more brave Marines on Peleliu than the Japanese. To quote a moron, “Check it out. It’s fact.”
Very truly Yours…
Daaaaamn!
Damn straight! Tell it like it is, the Marine Corps is the king of corrupt mainstream media and for that they are not worthy.
Hey CPL of Marines:
If you’re such a tough guy, why don’t you sign a 5 year contract with the La Légion Etrangère Française, and try to learn what its like to be a real man. You wouldn’t make the first afternoon in La Légion. People like yo don’t do well in a military environment. You talk too much.
You’re a fucking pussy.
But I like that nickname you all gave yourselves. It fits. Devil dogs are a dessert, soft and mushy.
For a cpl of Marines to join a harmless bunch of felons and psychopaths pretending to be a military formation wouldn’t make much sense, would it?
Seriously, you talk about the french foreign legion like it’s DEVGRU.
They are in fact, french. Therefore they can be relied upon. They can be relied upon to fail, usually in a spectacular way.
Maybe I missed something but from the wooden hand guy in mexico to angola to diem ben phu, they are famous failures.
So eat some stinking cheese on some stale bread, pretend you have some class, swill some french grape juice and find someone to receive your surrender.
More fake news and jarhead propaganda. You are not all warriors or all of your Jarheads would have went to the Infantry billets. Most of you jarheads are discarded from the Corps like broken equipment to only join the Army and beat your chest and claim you where “Force Recon”. Just because you’re a jarhead doesn’t make you more elite. Sorry but some dude with 2 duis that couldn’t make it in the other branches due to disqualification, joins the Corps doesn’t make that person more elite, that was that person only chance they had left. Keep giving waivers for the felons and drug addicts that join the Corps. Jarheads are not special.
soldiers are the warriors, marines are seamen. “devil dogs” you even continue to use a nickname pulled right out of fantasy by the marine corps which blatantly falsifying history. btw, the department of the navy was established in 1794, the marines were established under the department of the navy in 1798. the accomplishments of the “continental marines” have absolutely nothing to do with the modern day organization that is the marine corps whatsoever. the “continental marines” were SOLDIERS in the department of war BEFORE the marine corps even existed, in fact, before the department of the navy even existed. fuck the brainwashing, habitual lying, and falsifying of history by the marines!
I guarantee after you wrote that crap you were strutting around like a hen with its chest stuck out. You joined the marines because you didn’t have have self confidence and still don’t.
Boo Hoo! … the army does get as much respect as the Marines … waaaaaaaaaaaa!
Thats all I just read …
The Marines who disrespect the Army try to steal Army valor and claim it as their own.
its sad but its true. theres this army fallujah fierfight video wheere its so clear that tehy are army because they have US Flags and unit patches on there shoulders, which the marines dont have. and bradly fighting vehicles which the marines dont have only the army. but still, you have marines on youtube claiming them to be usmc not army.
First off I would like to point out that since I have been in the Marines time after time whenever I run into an individual in the Army, and this I would say is true about 75-80% of the time, they automatically start naming off every little thing they’ve ever done in the career like they have something to prove to me, why that is I’ll never know. Army soldiers are the ones that are constantly trying to talk themselves up to everyone in the room where as I personally as well as I can say 90%, you always have one or two, of the Marines I served with do not brodcast that we are Marines and go into regurgitating our service records books to the entire room. So if anyone needs to shut up in the room it’s soldiers. Secondly if the crucible is not a big deal, which really it’s not it’s just sleep and food deprivation as any Marine would probably tell you and I have never bragged about, “surviving” it, why did the Army adopt their own pussified version of it? For my part of the arguement I’m going to focus on Belleau Wood because I’ve actaully done research on the subject unlike the author of this article but will throw in some food for thought afterward. The assault through and capture of the Wood was conducting almost exclusively by the 5th and 6th Marine regiments. The exception would that of the period between June 15th and June 22th where the battalions in the wood pulled back to get food and much needed rest after pushing three quarters of the way into the wood. During that period the Army’s 7th Infantry came in to hold the line which they did well despite at various times lossing ground that the Marines had taken. On June 25th the Marines pushed the rest of the way though the wood and rendering 5 German regiments combat ineffective. As far as Purshing’s standing order to prevent naming of units and locations of the Army, go to historical New York Times and search Belleau Wood and you will find that that was simply not the case, correspondance included the Army and whatever small role they played in this assault. It’s not called the Battale of Belleau Wood and the surrounding area, it’s called the Battle of Belleau Wood. As far as Teaufelhunden is concerned I will concede that there is little to no offical record of that nickname however we do quotes from personal correspndance such as this, “the Americans are savages, they kill anything that moves!” from an unmailed letter to the grandfather of a German Corporal. Since the gloves are obviously off here I’m going to mention a few things. I would also like to point that the Army participated, did not make, participated in the largest beach landing in the history of Military warfare, it was a multi national force, you can apologize to the British, French and Canadians now. And since we are on the subject of particioation, Marines also took part in that one, just not on that grand of a scale. President Truman, a former Army Officer, I don’t imagine he would have a bias on the matter would he? Mogadishu first, problems arose in Mogadishu after the Marines, who ran regular patrols through the city in armored column and on foot, pulled out the soldiers replacing them did not and we saw how that ended up. Unlike some people, aminly the author here I do not see the need to trample on a mans grave so we won’t go further on that. Secondly I was in the First Marine Division in 2003 as part of Regimental Combat Team Five, twice our advance was halted for days because we had to wait for the Armies supply trains to catch up because they did distribute their supplies accordingly. Fallujah has been taken care of. I can only imagine that you are refering to the first attempt to passify the city which the size of the insurgency inside was greatly under-estimated. Possibly because the 82nd refusal to set up firm bases inside the city and conduct patrols accordingly. The second assault was completly successful containing the threat and ultimatly minimalizing it to where now the city is under teh control of the local Iraqi governemnt and police force. The Marines out of Camp Fallujah only take a supporting role when called upon and pass through on their daily missions. The city is no longer the threat it once was. Which is one hell of a lot better then it was when they took over for the 82nd who were from what I understand would not go into the city. Let’s talk casualties… when was the last time the Army swept rhough an entire city in Iraq in one operation? The author also has seriously done no homework on the defense budget either because if they had they would know that the Marine corps recieves sraps from the Navy’s budget and hand me downs from the Army. Also if you were to fold the Marines into the Army you would just have a bigger Army and be paying the same amount of money, way to think that one through though. That’s all for now but you can bet I’ll be back with more.
i disagree if you have ever talked to marines all they do is talk and talk this comes from someone who is in neither branch i find marines much more annoying army guys rarely talk about there time in the army
i would say its based more on the individual rather than what branch now if you ask marines which branch is better then yea they will start naming reasons why its better
Yes, i looked up into that as well and found that you are very right indeed. My father was in the Marines and retired as a Lt. Col. My Brothers are in the Army though and they really do just what you say. To be honest. Their bitching all the time had made me want to join the Marines and I think it would be the Best Thing In The World. Hoora!!!
In fact the marines say Oorah! Hoora is a army thing
In this forum, the first reply was a list of favorable comments about the Marine Corps. No other American Armed Service goes to the extent the Marine Corps does to compile lists of compliments about itself.
The Marine Corps also distorts history to claim other services’ accomplishments for their own.
That is why I particularly enjoy pointing out instances in which the Marines have falsified history to falsely claim Army valor.
False History…. Like the bloodstripe, devil dog, and so on an so on.
the problem with the article is its slanted towards the army and is misleading and is full of half truths its not very accurate
Both branches have different accomplishments and roles to play. I am a seven year veteran of the Army. I have loads of respect for the marines that I have served with, many of whom are good friends of mine. Outside of the normal shit talking, we are all professional enough to respect each other. The corps has a higher esprit de corps than the army as a whole, but combat units in the army are just as closely knit. My marine buddies, most of whom are 0300 series, are the first to say that the only ones who mindlessly talk down every other branch of service are the fobbits and kids just out of boot. Oh yes, and the force that conquered the western portion of the country was primarily army and not marines.
Former Cpl and now Officer Candidate Fish USMC, you’ll make an outstanding officer in the Marines. Apparently, you’ll believe anything.
First of all, your “cruciable” of food and sleep deprivation is an Army practice dating back 70 years. It was a radical form of training FIRST designed and implemented by Brigadier General James Gavin prior to the invasion of Normandy when he was Assistant Division commander of the 82nd Airborne Division. Immediately after the war, it was adopted by, and became a staple of, The Ranger School. I suspect the Marines adopted the practice from experience of attending The Ranger School.
Second, “The Army participated, did not make, participated in” the largest amphibeous landing in history. I have absolutely no idea what that means. But here is what I do know…
The U.S. 1st and 29th Infantry Divions particpated in the amphibeous landings at Normandy. They did “Make” the landings. Not only that, in the opion of every historian known to mankind, they CARRIED those landings. Here is what else I know…
The 1st and 29th Infantry Division assaulted the Omaha Beach through a bowl-shaped ring of dominating cliffs covered with the most sophisticated defensive fortifications from a mile out to sea to the tops of those cliffs, and beyond. It was, the most heavily fortified and prepared beach defense assaulted in history. Here is what else I know…
The 1st and 29th Infantry Division’s overcame those formidable defenses, and took Omaha Beach with staggering casualties. Between them, they suffered over 2,000 Killed In Action within the first three hours on Omaha Beach. For the record, that is more KIA than the Marine Corps suffered on EVERY beach they assauled in the Pacific War COMBINED.
That whole “DevilDog” thing. I like it. It’s cute. Sounds menacing. But it is entirely a figment of the Marine Corps’ propaganda machine in overdrive.The Germans never called the Marines Devils, or Dogs, or anything else of that nature. But, here is what else I know…
A multitude of military organizations have given themselves fearsome knicknames like the Marines have. And most all of them refer to themselves as devils of some type or another. The Red Devils, the Green Devils, the Blue Devils, the DevilDogs, the DevilGhosts, the Devils’s Devils. But only one United States military formation in histroy has actually documented the enemy attributing a knickname to them. It was the Germans, and it was in reference to “devils,” but it surely wasn’t a Marine unit.
No, it was the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment on Anzio Beachhead.
On March 5, 1944, a diary was taken from a young German lieutenant captured the previous night in patrol action by the 504th’s Company C. It contained the following passage: “Soldiers in baggy pants, parachutists, are opposing us here. We never feel safe. It seems that there are blackhearted devils all aroung us.”
That’s a quote future officer of Marines. I have that diary!
I won’t even touch the Somalia thing, because that’s way too complicated for you to ever grasp.
See. You talk too much.
Hey former cpl, the marine corps considers you officer material?
Your a freaking illiterate. I guess that explains why they can never qualify for higher unified command. Spelling, grammar, and forming complete sentences are essential skills at thst level. I’m betting when you get your commission, the marine corps isn’t going to let you within 100 miles of their public affairs office.
More jarhead propaganda. Every Marine thinks they are more elite than SOF and any other specialized military unit. You are not special. I say again, you are not special, no matter what your DIs brainwashed you into thinking. Marines did not win the first battle of Fallujah, this also was an op that contained Soldiers and other elements such as SOF and local forces. Marines where not the sole responsible party for winning the second battle of Fallujah. Marines where not the first in Iraq or Afghanistan. Marines did not solely win the Pacific. The Army did win the European theater and the small amount of Marines in the African theater was really not needed. The allied amphibious landing which totaled over 15,000 Soldiers along with the allies did this, why where the jarheads not involved? They were not needed. What was the biggest amphibious landing for the jarheads and this total more than 15,000 jarheads? Jarheads were not the only ones fighting in the Pacific, plenty of Soldier did the fighting and also conducted amphibious landings. Keep chest pounding that your more elite than everyone in every branch its the only way to justify your jarhead little boys club existence. Jarheads are not quite professional like other warriors are. They need constant attention and recognition to feel warm and fuzzy inside, it’s the only way to justify their existence and its the only way they can get out of bed for having small sticks between their legs. Jarheads are not needed. Jarheads send themselves to Army schools for follow on training. Why would elite jarheads need to get specialized training from the Army? Once again jarheads are not needed, they leech off the other branches, have proven to be cowards when it benefits them, will distort history to embellish themselves and their cult order called the Corps. Jarheads will exacerbate any type of asymmetrical warfare or conventional warfare situation, causing undue casualties from US forces to civilians. This is usually because of having lower intelligence, not thinking outside the box and the willingness to die for the Corps. Jarheads love the Corps more than their country.
I am a military historian by profession and there is no doubt that for years the Marine Corps has done the best job of any of the Services in using our public relations folks to magnify our role in the eye of the American Public. The Marine Corps policy is to emphasize image enhancing “heritage” at the expense of actual “history.” With regard to “official” history, if we write anything that is even the slightest bit negative, it is edited before publication. In the words of the self-appointed father of Marine Corps history, BGen Simmons, the best way to ensure the continued future of the Corps is for “Marine Corps history to only be written by Marines.” Check and see who the authors are for most USMC history titles since WWII; 99% of them are written by retired or reserve Marines and support the USMC agenda. I was assigned at Quantico when the Army rolled into Baghdad while the Marines were bogged down, and the generals were screaming in frustration and anger until Colonel was relieved. Our “official” writings on the war don’t get published unless they are first approved by generals like Mattis or Conway. Like it or not, everything in this article is right on the money; if you doubt that, check with the Marine Corps History Division.
A military historian, yeah, and I’m Pope John Paul the IV.
You are not an historian of any kind if you brelieve the Marines captured Chapultepec Castle.
Take it up the ass just like every other one here. Instead of bitching and sitting, go confirm it. It’s true. Most of Marine Corps. books nowadays are written only by former Marines. It’s more convenient for them.
yea i dont know how you can say that its obvious this article is slanted pro army and the way the article is written is misleading
Semper Fi Mac..
Great paragraph. I agree with you entirely, but fear as a military historian you fail to grasp the absolute danger in the Marine Corps’ methods. They are, in essence, propagating propaganda under the guise of official history. In that, the Marine Corps is building a heritage house of cards that will inevitably crumble to truthful fact. And when that fall arrives, it will be fast and far.
I believe we are now seeing the beginnings of that implosion. And in my opion, it is directly due to the Marine Corps overplaying its hand. That those official “historians” have embelished much, if not most, of the Marine Corps’ history is undenable. It is also unimaginable. The Marine Corps has a fine record. Certainly they are not nearly what they portray themselves to be, but they possess a fine record. They have no need to embelish, and hide negatives. Worse, they have moral authority to propogate much of thier propaganda on the backs of the country’s other services, and blowback just may be a bitch.
And that will be a national tragedy. When the Marine Corps does suffer its inevitable demise, blame should be squarely placed upon the pathalogical officer corps that has controlled the Marine Corps since World War II, and directly set the tone and direction.
LOL, hey semper fi mac, how do you like those responses by your fellow marines? And we actually entrust elements our country’s security to these marines. God help us.
Well Mac I do agree with you on the ‘filtered’ history that the Corps presents, you cannot argue that the Corps is an inferior force when compared with the Army. However as much as I hate a controlled media I think that this doctored heritage serves a purpose to instill utmost pride, belonging, and discipline in every Marine.
I am not here to bash on the soldiers. I have many friends in the United States Army. Many of them disciplined and fine citizens that I would be proud to fight with any day. There loyalty to their country and courage is not what I question. It’s their training and organization of the Army that I question. The army is not what it used to be. It’s grown week and politically correct. The army for some reason has come up with the idea to replace good training with high tech equipment.
I would like to point out that before someone goes off spouting about Delta Force they need to remember that there are Marines in Delta. It is a multi-service SF.
Alright Delta expert…..once again someone talking about stuff they know nothing about. Delta is a 100% Army Special Operations unit. There may be guys n it that at one time were in the Corps, but if they are “Delta”, they are army. It’s called an inter service transfer. By the way…there are only a few former Marines there. Multi service SF…..negative.
I believe you are 100 % right Jim, that 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1st SFOD-D), is in fact total USA…or at least that’s always been my understanding of it. The 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) support them, and from what I’ve read the screening process is very rigorous…including a 90 mile timed trek through mountains of W Va with heavy ruck…definitely some hard individuals….if you want to get some background on SF, check out whatever you can find about the 1st Special Service Force…the first SF bubbas, joint Canadian/USA that morphed into present state. Anybody that doubts Delta should read up on MSGT Gordon and SFC Shugart and their actions in Somalia that led to their posthumous MOH’s.
Delta Marine awarded CMH for action in Benghazi.
Rangers lead the way!
US Marine Corps Defeat in Iraq
©2005-2008 QuikManeuvers. All Rights Reserved.
Fallujah Battles, Iraq – Vol. 1
US Marine Corps Defeat in Iraq
© 2006
216 pages; 11 chapters
The American media has no understanding of wars, or the men who fight those wars.
That deficit, along with an anti-military, pro-muslim imperialist prejudice common to
most “journalists” should be factored into the reading of the constant propaganda
drivel that they spew out. The media’s descriptions of the battles of Fallujah were as
slanted as usual. However, they did get a few things right. Some news stories
accurately described portions of the US Marine Corps defeat in the two battles of
Fallujah. Fallujah Battles, Iraq is an e-book that honestly describes the corrosive
influence in embedded US journalists. Although Marine Corps NCOs and enlisted
men are excellent military material, in most cases they are poorly trained and
incompetently led. In fact, the only bright spots of the battles of Fallujah were
those brought about by Marine Corps NCOs who performed their tactical
maneuvers in an excellent manner. Fallujah Battles, Iraq describes what really
happened in Fallujah. The strange psychology of some US Marine Corps leaders
is contrasted with the warrior heroism exemplified by others. There is no doubt that,
properly supported by tanks and self-propelled artillery, three regiments of marine
infantry could have conquered Fallujah with minimal casualties. However, the Marine
generals have continued the tradition of not understanding how to use tanks, which
has prevailed since World War II. A hard corps of strong Marine Corps NCOs
cannot compensate for a lack of division, regimental, battalion, and company
leadership.
“Fallujah is a cancer,” said Major Gen Richard Natonski, commander of the 1st Marine Division, who would lead any
ground attack. “We can’t have a sanctuary for the enemy and expect to make progress.” General Natonski, who the
muslim Nazis condemn as a “Polish Jew”, understands the nature of the enemy that he is fighting. He said he had
received no request from the Iraqi government to carry out military operations in Fallujah, and offered no opinion on
whether a peaceful solution was possible. “I don’t know who they’re negotiating with.”
He made clear that his men were ready for action in Fallujah. “It’s a rats’ nest, but if we have to go in and clear it out we
will.” He urged the foreign elements in Fallujah and those loyal to Saddam Hussein’s regime to come out and fight.
“We can take these guys on if they show their faces. Not a problem whatsoever. That’s why they’ve resorted to the tactics
they have [suicide bombings and IEDs] because they know every time we face them we kill them.” ”
US Marine Corps Defeat in Iraq
© 2006
202 pages; 11 chapters, and 1 appendix
In Fallujah Battles, Iraq, Volume 2, the two battles of Fallujah are deeply
analyzed. In addition, the unique psychological and organizational
characteristics of the US Marine Corps, a light maneuver force with few
tanks, are closely dissected. The reasons why marines don’t understand the
employment of tanks is finally revealed. Although Marine Corps NCOs and
enlisted marine infantry are excellent military material, in most cases they are
poorly trained and incompetently led. The only bright spots of the battles of Fallujah
were those brought about by those few Marine Corps NCOs, warrior leaders, who
performed tactical assault maneuvers in an excellent manner. Fallujah Battles,
Iraq describes what really happened in Fallujah. The strange psychology of some
US Marine Corps leaders is contrasted with the warrior leadership exemplified
by others. Fallujah Battles, Iraq discusses the fact that among the Marine
generals there is an antiwar peacenik cult that impedes warfighting and
abhors maneuver. Among marine officers there are too many men wedded to
technology instead of the bitch goddess of war. There is no doubt that, properly
supported by tanks and self-propelled artillery, three regiments of marine
infantry could have conquered Fallujah with minimal casualties. However, the
Marine generals have continued the tradition of not understanding how to use
tanks, which has prevailed since World War II. A hard corps of strong US Marine
Corps NCOs cannot compensate for a lack of competent Marine generals or a
lack of regimental, battalion, and company leadership.
“Some US military units recently rotated into Iraq left behind in America many tanks and other armored vehicles. The
marines, for instance, initially used only 16 tanks in Iraq out of their inventory of 403. They have also deployed 39 of their
1,057 assault amphibian vehicles (AAVs). The AAVs provide protection against light small arms but not rocket-propelled
grenades. After many American vehicles were knocked out. The Army and marine generals began assessing whether or
not to rush hundreds more tanks to Iraq, a process that would take weeks. During the past few years, America’s
incompetent generals have covered up their stupidity by blaming everything on Donald Rumsfeld, the best Secretary of
Defense that America has ever known or will ever know. Why has there not been a public outcry about the incompetence
of American generals?
Pentagon officials have acknowledged that $5.97 billion worth of new and modified equipment and weapons is required,
mostly for added troop protection. The list is “unfunded,” meaning there’s no money in the budget for it, said Rep. Curt
Weldon, R-Pa., a senior member of the House Armed Services Committee.
In the Army, 4th Infantry Division troops who drive five-ton gun trucks in convoys that have been raked by Iraqi fire and
roadside bombs have fitted their trucks with plywood “armor,” according to Rep. Duncan Hunter, the California
Republican who heads the House Armed Services Committee. Plywood provides no protection, even against small arms.
Hunter, furious that the Pentagon hasn’t been able to provide armor, last week thundered at officers called to account at
a hearing, “You guys can’t tie your shoelaces!”
Major General Buford C. Blount, assistant deputy chief of staff for operations, told Hunter last week that, “we must do
better and I think the Army and the leadership of (the Pentagon) is committed to doing that, sir.” ”
Excerpt from Fallujah Battles, Iraq – Vol. 2
other books about Anti Terrorism
other books about Light Infantry
There is no doubt that a number of brave marine infantry men were killed and wounded in the battles of Fallujah in a
wasteful fashion. Properly led, by well-trained marine officers, few marines would have died. A positive victory would have
added to the glory of the US Marine Corps. Fallujah Battles, Iraq provides strong evidence that the US Marine Corps
reputation was tarnished by the twin defeats at Fallujah. This e-book is offered with the hope that those proud and few
US Marine Corps warrior leaders, who are strong and brave Marine officers and Marine Corps NCOs, will read this
book and never lose another city fight again.
I’ve noticed that so far that it’s mostly Marines who have responded to this article. Let me first say that I admire the Marine Corp and agree with many of their fundamental principals. There’s a lot the U.S. Army can learn from it. First, I could not agree more that basic training should be twelve weeks, not eight. For me, it ended just as it was just beginning to get interesting. Aside from that, each service has a different purpose; the role of the Marine Corp is very different from the role of the army. And I think the author of the article is wrong to advocate changing that role or ending the Marine Corp.
However, what bothers me about the general responses to the article is that no one has really replied to what I see as its underlying complaint: The Marine Corp has gained a lot of its reputation by maligning the army. You do not need to denigrate the achievements of soldiers to bolster your own sense of accomplishments. We know you kick ass. Everybody does. But so does the army.
The army did not need the Marines to breech the German defenses in Europe and North Africa, and it did so with a large number of conscripts. The German Army was second to none until they ran up against Patton. And yes, there were allies who helped, but they usually got in the way. You really don’t want to acknowledge the significant role played by Air-Cav and Rangers in Vietnam or the larger role the army has played in both Iraq and Afghanistan as far as that goes. Let me get this right, were one of you saying that the Somalia was a defeat for the Rangers? A few more defeats like that and all Africa would belong to the US Army Rangers. And if what the article says about Korea is true, then the Marines should acknowledge it. It is disgraceful to the memory of those brave soldiers who died buying time for a Marine retreat
Oh yes, if the soldiers in the 82nd did not go out on patrols in Iraq, as one of you stated, it was only because they were ordered so. Just like Marines, soldiers follow orders whether they like them or not. I never questioned the tactics and strategies of officers who had a broader view of the problem than I. I don’t believe that Marines do either.
Still there is a lot to learn from the army can learn from the Marines, like increasing basic training to twelve weeks. The army should put an end to political correctness and return to its traditions. Oh yes, the other thing the army can learn from the Marine Corp is PR. Yup, you Marines really have mastered it. You’ve got the best recruiting ads and the best slogans.
The Marine Corps has acquired its reputation not only for claiming Army exploits as their own. In World War II, they blamed two of their biggest foul ups on the Army.
The problem on Saipan was not the 27th Id but Holland M. Smith who was a general inexperienced in high command, but a general who totally underestimated Japanese strength on Saipan. On Saipan, he expected understrength Army units to take out difficult objectives. He simply did not realize how difficult the objectives were. When the 27th ID did not rapidly overrun those objectives, he accused them of failure. By and large, Marine Corps writers have distorted the history of Saipan to blame the 27th ID for HM Smith’s ineptitude.
The problem on Peleliu was that William Rupertus, CG of 1st mardiv, totally misread Japanese intentions on Peleliu. The Japanese occupied strong defensive positions impregnable to frontal attack. Rupertus got thousands of his Marines killed and wounded trying to take out those positions via the tactic of direct frontal attack. Post battle, The Marines awarded Rupertus a Navy Cross. They claimed 1st mardiv had to fight such a bloody battle because General MacArthur wanted Peleliu. Macarthur may have wanted Peleliu. But Peleliu was such a bloody battle because of poor generalship on the part of William Rupertus.
Jerry from SD wow you know your stuff, lol motto xD the 82nd airborne was ordered to go into that city, they refused to! i would say alot more but um jerry pretty much hit it right on the spot. this article is very pro army…and most of the “statments made” are completely untrue.
Fake news. Show your proof that 82nd Airborne paratroopers refused to go into the city? How does one refuse orders from a higher echelon to conduct missions? Keep eating crayons and keep praying to your cult. Jarheads are not special.
It is with great sadness that I read Soldiers and Marines trying to belittle each other rather than unite under one flag for one common goal. I have met many marines and some have this nasty attitude toward the army(not that our Soldiers dont add fuel to the fire). We have a great honor to have the Army and the Marine Corp fighting our wars, Myself included as I am a veteran. Lets focus on bringing the boys back and not on who failed in fallujah or who failed in Korea. Before you ask I was an NCO in the US ARMY.
I am Raj Roy, son of an officer in Indian Army.. Being so far away, i truly admired you guys (both Marines and Navy).. ofcourse first comes my Motherland India, but i really had that respect for you both.., You guys have played different imp roles in different places.. BUT, the respect seems to be a little lost now.. You guys are fighting against each other? Its like two sons of a same mother trying to prove to mother who is better rather than serving her! SHAME ON YOU BOTH!
I think it is more of the Marine Corps, the history of which is not as extensive as that of the US Army, trying to build a reputation which is not there.
Much of Marine Corps history is fabricated and consists of claiming credit for what they did not do and blaming the Army for their blunders.
Worry about your own military and country. Last I checked you cant handle the Pakis on your own, now with China encroaching on your land you got more things to worry about than us pointing out that Jarheads distort history, embellish themselves at the cost of the other branches to prove they are better than any living thing on this Earth.
Thank you for commenting this
That’s because jarheads belong to a cult and love the Corps more than their country. Soldiers on the other hand love their country more than the Army.
Are you serious? What would posess a person to write such an article? A. Scott Piraino, shame on you. Brave men and women from both the Army and Marine Corps have died to protect your right to the freedom of speech and this is how you honor them? Pick up that pen and write a story of the great sacrifices these very same individuals have made to make this country so great. To my fellow Marines and Army brothers and sisters; instead of responding to this article, take the time to share something about a fellow patriot who you had the honor of serving with. God bless every US service member and their families for their service and sacrifice. Peace be with you.
How about the 105th Infantry on Saipan on July 7, 1944.
Between 4000 and 5000 fanatical Japanese launched the fiercest suicide attack of WWII against the 105th Infantry. In spite of horrible casualties to ots 1st and 2nd Battalions, 105th Infantry stopped the attack. Another Army regiment, 106th Infantry then drove the Japanese back.
One Marine artillery battalion, 3rd battalion 10th marines, was the only Marine unit to engage the Japanese. The Japanese overran 3/10th Marines, forced them to abandon their guns and form defensive perimeters. The Marines of 3/10 Marines were rescued by the106th Infantry, who also recovered their guns for them.
HM Smith later commended 3/10 Marines for their courage. He called the Soldiers of the 105th Infantry, who actually fought and bled and died stopping the attack yellow cowards.
Subsequent Marine authors have written that the soldiers broke and that 3/10th Marines stopped the attack.
Good point Texas Marine. But why don’t we start with the Marine Corps taking back every despicable word they have falsely uttered and written about the incredibly courageous men of the 31st RCT. Nearly all of whom died valiantly on the battlefield, only to be disparaged and disrespected as cowards by virtually the entire Marine
Corps.
That would be a good start. Especially since ChiCom records now being released expose the Marine Corps as the treasonous institution it is, and marines generally as the traitorous individuals they have been. the fate of the incredibly brave men of the 31st RCT deserve better than false accusations leveled at them by the Marine Corps. The information age is awesome isn’t it? I strongly suspect many more Marine Corps misinformation campaigns will be exposed.
Wow! That is really the only word that can describe it. I was trying to figure out which branch of service to go into and I am sure of my choice now. After reading these complete lies about our Marine Corps it is pretty obvious that some pathetic human being has too much time on his hands. My grandfather drove tanks in the Army in WWII, but we all know who is the better fighting force of the 21st century. The MARINE CORPS! THE ARMY HAS NO FIGHTER/BOMBER AIRCRAFT or even a FIXED WING AIR FORCE like THE MARINES. THE ARMY ALSO DOES NOT HAVE ANY AMPHIBIOUS CAPABILITY WHATSOEVER. NO SUPPORT FROM THE NAVY AND NO ABILITY TO BE FIRST ON SCENE. NOT TO MENTION A TOUGHER 13 week BOOTCAMP. I ALMOST FORGOT THE MARINES CAN SWIM. Thanks for cementing your reputation I choose the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS! TRUE DEVIL DOGS. TRUE HEROES. TRUELY CAPABLE WARRIORS.
Basic is the Marines and these are not all lies its someone who decided to defend the army and shed light on the Army. Marines are a great branch and if you join you will learn that very quickly that when your fighting with the Army this rivalry is a dumb joke
Why do the Marines try to claim Army exploits as their own?
Where were yhese “TRUE HEROES. TRUELY CAPABLE WARRIORS” at Trenton, Saratoga, Valley Forge, Yorktown?
You do realize that Marines were not a land force during the Revolution? They were almost exclusively deployed on Navy ships to fight in the mast tops and occasionally sortie ashore? So at Trenton, Saratoga, Valley Forge and Yorktown they were on board ship where they were assigned to be.. one could ask where the Continental Army was when Bonhomme Richard took the Serapis and Countess of Scarborough.. or where were they when the Continental Navy and Marines raided Nassau to garner desperately needed supplies for the Continental Army..?
Even still, small detachments of Marines did serve with the Continental Army. At Trenton, they were stuck when the part of the attack they were assigned to could not cross the Delaware due to the ice. Not sure it’s the Marine’s fault their Army officer decided not to risk the conditions, not sure I’ve ever heard any Marines claim that the Marines fought there either.. or at Saratoga, Valley Forge or Yorktown (though it should be pointed out that there were British and French Marines there.. likely would have been Continental Marines there as well if deGrasse’s fleet was not completely French.
Where were they on the eastern side of Chosin Reservoir? Where were they at Lang Vei?
Answer Number 1-running away.
Answer Number 2- hiding inside their perimeter.
Man oh man, do you got to go back that far to worry about this.. WHO GIVES A SHIT….
Tougher 13 week boot camp?? Man, you sound like you love to feast on sugarcoated shit. I go to PT weekly and once in a while we’ll have a poolee return as a Marine and describe boot camp. He said honestly that swim week is a joke. Boot camp has gotten easier over the decades. They don’t teach you to swim, just to survive in an aquatic environment. Jump in with clothes on and blow air in your shirt. If that’s “learning to swim” then good for you. It’s not like Army doesn’t know how to swim. And most said that the first couple weeks is the DI’s yelling their ass off at you so you get used to it, first couple weeks are a waste. But you sound like some teenage kid that’s obviously all hyped up and little idea of what the hell you’re talking about. Both Marines and Army have their even share of things.
“What dose shit sound like when it hits the fan?”
Marineee…..,,,
Proud, Pride. Stand tall, walk Steady
AATW, RLTW.
Go back to your mothers basement. Jarheads are not special. Longer boot camp does not make you special or more elite. Army has an excellent relationship with the Air Force. The AF has better fixed wings than the Corps or Navy. The AF and Army have better rotary capabilities. The Army has a bigger fighting force than the jarheads. More artillery, more armor, more of everything. The AF flies the Army around everywhere to include our equipment. Jarheads dont even have tanks anymore. Army doesnt need to train in swimming because most Soldiers are not crayon eaters and know how to swim. Devil dogs was a fabricated history, no one ever called jarheads devil dogs. Jarheads arent true heroes nor truly capable warriors. They send jarheads to Army schools for follow on training. The jarheads are a succubus to our military. Jarheads will desert, retreat and distort history along with their false embellishments to further the cult called the Corps.
You sound like a little bitch. How many times did a marine kick your ass? You sound extremely petty, there must be a reason why.
This whole thread is absolutely hilarious. I retired from the Corps ten years ago and me and a bunch of my former service buddies from all branches crack up reading this kind of stuff. We all respect each other and harass each other to no end.
Bottom line is that I agree with the comments regarding different roles. Further I agree that depending on viewpoint of the individual authors, various media types, leaders, historians, and others spew out skewed opinion. I am not advocating a group hug here, but you guys need to grow up and find something better to do with your time.
All the services are necessary. Competition is good for improvement. Remember who the real enemy is and focus there. We’re all in the same family and remember that.
agreed
Roger
Never served. Greatest respect for both branches though Granddad served in France with Pershing and son is in Army. My much respected neighbor is a retired USMC General who enlisted in WW2 ! He stuck his neck out in WW2, Korea and Vietnam !!! I do have experience in law enforcement AND there is identical “my department is tougher, better, smarter than yours” rivalry, jealousy and competition. Mostly good-natured macho ribbing…keep it that way Army and Marines.
I have to laugh. When the shit hits the fan Army and Marines will fight and die alongside each other. Guadacanal was hell for both. The wise veterans learn from the best of the other agencies AND there is always someone doing it better somewhere else ! Competition is good for the nation BUT waste is not. We got plenty of enemies without picking fights with each other or wasting resources. I am 100% against ending USMC though they ought to take their fair share of cuts. I used to say “there is plenty of crime to go around” so dont bitch about other agency.
We are not the same family. Jarheads are a department and a true branch of the military. The Corps is a cult. They will desert, retreat and distort any negatives they have committed instead of owning up to their mistake they blame others. The jarheads are not necessary. They are only around so the Navy can have their own “Army”.
Oh yeah. It’s ok to harass each other. Just keep it respectful. You guys sound like a bunch of school kids.
wow…sounds like a bunch of kids and old men in here….who cares….
This is such a silly argument. Very similar to guys stuck talking about their college football teams and frat houses. Both sides living in the rear view mirror.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Actually, it’s been pretty informative. College football teams can’t make false claims or claim another team’s wins and frat houses cover themselves better.
Yeah there are some ifdiots on both sides but there’s a lot of info here that is not common knowledge.
I started off in the Marine Corps JROTC learning everything there was to learn about the Marines. I loved it. I loved the history, structure, dicipline, training and uniform. I loved learning and training with the Marines and fellow Cadets in Camp Penalton, I loved looking my sharpest during inspections, and I loved earning every Cadet promotion until I reached to the top as one of the top class Cadets. I always wanted to be in he military ever since I was a kid. I even had drill instructors training and yelling in my face at the age of 15. It made me into a finer teenager after I graduated the programs class. Community service was important to me, along with being a good person and patriot. Military, military, military. Its all I ever spoke and thought of. Not because of the glory. Because of the honor. Thats what its about. Honor, making a difference, and serving my country. Screw glory. So when I finally graduated high school, why did I choose the Army over the “Best”, the Marine Corps?
Arrogence. I wanted to serve my country in a modest manner in a modest branch. The Marines dont do “healthy compitition”. They bash on the other branches. Especially the Army. I used to love the Marines. They were my role models. I almost joined them. But now I just respect them as fellow brothers in arms. I wont lie, I highly respect their warrior skills their infantry has over the Armys infantry. Thats what the Marines should be proud of. They have the best warriors. Thats what they are known for and thats what they were created for. To be Elite. The Navys infantry. Every Marine is a rifleman. No matter what occupation. Every recruit is treated the same in Bootcamp. I wish the Army did that, but we dont. In the Army, Bootcamp varies on what occupation you pick. For example, Im in a combat occupation so Bootcamp was harder. Whereas my fellow soldier, and friend, is a non combat soldier. So compaired to my training, his bootcamp was a little bit more mild. Do I put him down? No. Without him, infantry couldnt get supplies. Which brings me to my point.
Face it Marines. You have just as much to be proud of as any soldier, airman, sailer and Coastguard member. No more. Know why? because youre serving the same team. The same ammount. The same way. No better, No worse. Soldiers are warriors as well. We have our pride. In fact, the Army has a hellava alot to be proud of. If it wasnt for the Army (National Guard in fact), the Marines and Navy wouldnt be established, and most of all, we wouldnt be living on this land. Instead, you US Marines would be serving in the Royal Marines. When we settled here, we created an organized Militia to protect us against the Brits. The Militia (Army Guard) provided protection from the 1600’s to 1775, when the regular Army and Marines were establised. And the Army guard still serves a large role in America to this day. Fighting in EVERY American war, Being the oldest part of the United States Military, and protecting the community. (Not to mention half of the Army Guard consists of formal Marines).
I think this artical is pro Army, and although I think its good that theres finally someone defending us and our history for once, it should not put Marine Corps history down. They worked equally as hard as the Army did in US history. They have an honorable history. Chesty Puller is the Marine Corps Audie Murphy. So dont put down Marine Corps history. They are contributers to fighting the United States freedom (Even though many of them still think theyre better than us just because of a nicer uniform and sharper immage). But all in all, the US Army is one of the Best Armies in the world. We have great size, great training, and the best equipment. Marines may be the best light infantry warriors (though I beg to differ with our Rangers), they will always be the department of the Navy. They are the second smallest branch (Coastguard being the first), and the only thing they need to be proud of is their mindless brawn. Which is ironic because the Army also provides mindless brawn as one of our many many jobs. So if those reasons are not good enough on why a patriot should not feel they are inferior to be a warrior in the Army then a warrior in the “precious Marine Corps” then it obviously means a loyal close minded jarhead, a closed minded civilian or a recruiting add objects. Because if I were to think about joining the Marine Corps, and to expect being brainwashed to think Im better than everyone around me, I would rather join the “underdogs” anyday.
(To all the Marines out there, I want to let you know that it is nothing personal. Im simply trying to defend my own Branch in the military, not to mention other branches. I also dont mean to catergorize. I have many friends in the Marines, including my greatest childhood mentor, Maj. Cross. But when a large majority of Marines, including some of them who commented on this page belittle your team, you will defend your team. Furthermore, I would like to conclude that I also disagree with this artical. We all need each other, and the Army would have a much harder time without the Marines watching our back. Healthy competition is good. But the rivalry? give me a break.
I agree dude i think Army infantry is equal but we have the same idea im in the marines 0311 MOS just finished Boot and had a great time. I was so annoyed about people in the barrack talking shit on army when they aren’t even full marines. Respect
You can just let any little Marine Private who has A Nerve in his fucking body to disrespect an Army Infantryman a couple facts. Please verify them for yourself, dont take my word for it. Private.
U.S. Army, Task Force 2-2..1st Infantry Division, based out of Germany. Along with the 1st Cavalry, another of our Infantry Units was First into Fallujah in Nov of 2004. When you hear a Marine in your unit talk about Fallujah in Nov of 2004, if they dont admit that we went in First to clear a foot hold, before they even entered…they are bold faced Lieing.
Now, please look this up as well, dont take my word for it. The first unit aside Special Forces, and the CIA- to see combat in Afghanistan was 187th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division – in a little battle called Operation Anaconda . Please look it up for yourself.
This business about Baghdad in 2003, the U.S. Army’s 3rd ID was the first to Baghdad, basically clearing the entire city…and was stuck waiting on the USMC.
And the Worst City in Iraq was not Fallujah, it was in Fact… Mosul. It did not get the same media attention due to the murders of the four black water contractors – which was made into a big stir- god bless those men’s souls. However, Mosul was a NASTY city, with Fire Fights happening EVERY day…did we, I say We being the U.S. Army have to pull out of the city, give it up to the Enemy…and Go back in and re-take it? No, no we did not. Because we do not do those things Private. Such as the USMC did with Fallujah. – they lost that city in 2004. These are facts, please verify for yourself.
Let me guess your a POG? Nothing you have said makes any sense. My belief is that you join the branch you think is the best. Not second. I don’t know of one Infantry Soldier that joined the US Army because he wanted to be second best! The Marines do not have better Infantry. The performance in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven that. In my opinion Infantry is Infantry. Both branches have outstanding Infantry and combat arms. Just diffrent tactics, equipment and organization. Just to let you know all Infantry Officers must graduate Ranger School. All E-7’s assigned to Active Infantry units must go through Ranger School. Its starting to be frowned upon being an E-6 and not having a Ranger Tab. That Ranger School knowledge filters its way down the Infantry ranks. Its a great system.
The Army already has an outstanding 16 week BCT/Boot Camp. Its Called Fort Benning OSUT. Now I admit that the Army should extend the BCT portion from 10 to 12 weeks. Getting rid Co-ed BCT and make a 4 year initial enlistment mandatory would be an improvement too.
The joint forces maneuver center of excellence produces outstanding Infantry, Armor, and Cav Scouts. One more point to make. Marines are not Rangers. The vast majority of Marines are support. Their cooks,clerks,truck drivers and mechanics. Their combat arms are not Rangers either. So Marine POGs give it a rest. Just cause you go through SRT doesn’t mean your Infantry. Your a POG that lives on the accomplishments of Marine Combat Arms. Enough said.
You do know there are no Marine cooks, right?
1776, Gettysburg, Normandy, Tunisia, Italy- US Army
Iwo Jima, Wake Island, Beirut, Nasirayah, Fallujah-marines
Who’s Chesty Puller? A tit grabber
VIVA AUDIE MURPHY!
p.s. please excuse the spelling and grammer errors. I never double checked, heh heh
…
My modest proposal, in light of our current economic crisis is the following: We need to consider streamlining and consolidating certain types of tasks in order to get more bang for the buck, while at the same time maintaining high standards. With regards to the Army and Marines, my proposal is to have all male recruits placed into a joint Army/Marine basic training program of 22 weeks of solid infantry training. A board consisting of an equal number of Army and Marine NCO’s would be responsible for maintaining and ensuring training standards. However, in order to preserve the respective espirit de corps of both forces as well as their individual traditions those who choose to remain as Soldiers would then go on to their MOS phase of training, while those who wish to become Marines complete some additional follow on training such as a basic amphibious warfare course, continued marksmanship training, a basic mountain warfare course, and a basic naval services universal course (in which both Sailors and Marines both participate and covers such things important to shipboard duty such as firefighting, basic naval terminology, etc.) Then upon completion of that training the prospective Marine would undergo a revised form of the Crucible lasting about two weeks in length complete with live ammo wizzing overhead, sleep deprivation, puking, long marches, various small unit exercises, and whatever else some sadistic cadre of instructors can come up with to pack into that period. Whatever is left can call itself a Marine and can have its picture taken with dress blues on and receive an eagle globe and anchor pin. After that, a brief respite to heal from the bumps and bruises and then its off to the six month MEU workup as a basic rifleman, followed by a tour at sea in that capacity. Once completed, then if the Marine wants to have an additional speciality such as a cook, mechanic, tanker, cannon cocker, or some other MOS then he would commence with that training after the initial standing down period with the MEU is completed. The idea behind this is that the Army will get to benefit from the iron sharpening iron of both an Army Drill Sergeant and a Marine Drill Instructor get the best basic infantry training possible, while still keeping the idea of becoming a Marine an accomplishment requiring intense dedication and determination that forces the cream to rise and the rest who wash out to either recycle, go back into the Army, or maybe get an assignment within the Navy’s NECC. Another rationale is that if every Marine is supposed to be a rifleman, then let them actually practice this by actually assigning them a “starter” MOS as a basic rifleman and doing a tour as such before moving on to some other specialty. Note: At some point I would like to see a career NCO exchange program between the Army and the Marines. It would work like this: A career Army NCO (preferably one who has served in an airborne or ranger capacity and has completed Ranger school) would be able to switch over to the Marines (completing all Marine prerequisites of course) and serve as a Marine for a prescribed period of time, say 3 years. Upon completion, the NCO would be encouraged to sign up for a hitch as a Basic Training/Combat Training NCO (and get a nice bonus to boot). On the Marine side, the Marine NCO who has served primarily in an infantry MOS would switch over and complete Airborne and Ranger school if not previously completed and then serve 3 years in a Ranger, Airborne, or other infantry unit. Upon completion, that Marine NCO would also go into the Basic/Combat Training NCO hitch and also get a nice bonus for his trouble. In time, a large cadre of very experienced and cross trained warriors would take over the responsibility of training all entry level male recruits. I also believe that in time this would be more cost effective since you would get an economy of scale and could consolidate more of the basic training installations (but still keep Benning and Pendleton no matter what), but still maintain the distinct identities of both forces.
Does Captain Calzone’s idea sound half baked? You be the judge. I am always open to critique.
How about giving the Army their own Harriers and FA 18s for ground support?
Uh… you have the Airforce.. Let it go man…
You’re living in a dream world bud. Keep eating crayons.
%-) genuinely interested by this website
I think the Marines and Army should stay separate, However I think the USAF should be merged back with the Army. Since the Cold War is over I really don’t see a point in the USAF as a service since they mainly support ground troops. Also they have the Navy’s “Air Force” as it is.
Actually the USAF has much larger scope of responsibility beyond the support of ground troops. For example, maintaining air supremacy in a theater of operations, air strikes, air intercept missions, strategic icbms, and now fighting the war in cyberspace. The USAF was formed because its mission was getting larger and could not fit in its Air Corps box any longer. Despite the ending of the Cold War, the USAF still has too large of a job to squeeze it back into the Army. Nevertheless, I still support force consolidation and there are many areas of operation where both the Army and the Air Force could still merge functions. I maintain that all airmen should undergo the at least the same basic training as the Army and that many Air Force and Army MOS training sites can also be consolidated. One final thought…just a thought…all German paratroopers (a.k.a. fallschimjagers) were part of the Luftwaffe, not the Army. What if the 82nd Airborne was transferred to the Air Force? Discuss.
Another thought….
Some of you may know that the Navy Seals are allowing a small number of Coast Guard personnel to go to their Basic Underwater Demoltion School (BUDs). So now there are Coastie SEALs out there. I don’t know the full story behind that move, but I suspect that it might have something to do with the Coast Guard’s role in providing Law Enforcement Detachment Teams to attach to Navy ships and units. If somebody out there knows what the deal is behind this I would love to know if I am right about my hunch or not. But here is my thought…If you can allow Coasties to serve in the SEALS, why not Marines? What if a SEAL team had a mixture of guys from each of the three sea branches, Navy, Coast Guard, and Marine Corps? Discuss
Okay where should I start. Okinawa was the largest American amphibeous landing. Normandy was the Americans and British. I heard more about the Army during Desert storm. The Marines have to go through harder basic training than the Army. They take more casulties because the don’t have armor. thats not their fault. oh, not using airstrikes thats because they don’t want to kill civilians and turn everyone against them. They didn’t help the people in nam because they still would have been outnumbered and suffered greater losses. Now quit spouting Army propganda and do some reporting
Keep eating crayons jarhead. Your propaganda doesnt work. The internet is a a great thing, you can actually look stuff up. Soldiers and jarheads both landed in Okinawa. Okinawa was the largest PACIFIC amphibious landing. This landing was not solely done by the jarheads, it had Soldiers. Sorry but the amphibious landing done in Europe contained more American Soldiers than any amphibious landing the jarheads did in the Pacific. Go back to your mothers basement and keep praying to your cult.
Patton and Puller were both cut from the same cloth, and in fact, they were distant relatives.
I would have been equally as proud to serve under Patton as a dogface or under Puller as a leatherneck.
Warriors are warriors. And pogues are pogues, no matter what. A pencil pushing pogue has no right to claim somebody else’s glory, nor should he dis the infantry of another branch (unless he himself has actually BEEN infantry once before, in the field against an enemy, an not merely in training).
Once you grab your rifle, don your kevlar, and then face the enemy in hostile fire, you are the shit and all of this academic debate about “Quien es mas macho? Army or Marines?” becomes meaningless.
Get in the shit and actually GET SOME!!!
FYI –
The Coast Guard deserves major props too, and should not referred to as mere “puddle pirates.”
Having had the privilege to be a guest aboard the USCGS Rush, I have become a huge Coastie fan. Every day these people go out in seas that would make ordinary people loose control of their bodily functions and pluck out mariners in distress. Their sacrifices are largely unnoticed by the general public and the media.
While there might not be an infantry in the Coast Guard, I still take my hat off to them. Semper Fi, meet Semper Paratus! And try not to lose your lunch on the freshly swabbed deck.
Army Rangers can hold their own anywhere! Just look at how they performed during the battle of Mogadishu. The Marines can’t deny that the Rangers knew how to get some. And lets not forget the two Delta Force men who gave their lives defending a downed pilot. They the Medal of Honor for that. Delta and Rangers Lead the Way! Hoah!
USAF Pararescue. Nuff said.
yea try US Marine Force Recon im not sayin USAF pararescue sucks but thats all you guys do Force Recon is alot harder because they do Deep Recon, Direct action, Search and Rescue, Unconventional Warfare, and alot of Ampihbious operations
Plus we shoot way futher 500 yards buddy
Dear Oni,
You’re an ignorant moron. And unfortunately, you perpetuate the impression that most marines are ignorant morons. I was in the Army’s 75th Ranger Rgt for about 2 years, then served in the 10th SFG for 4 years. I was at Koleezi in May 1978 with the French Foreign Legion, in Iran in 1980 for Eagle
Claw, and saw extensive action in the Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia, Liberia, and several other otherwise nondescript African countries. That’s my resume, I was a professional soldier for 6 years, and I will tell you one fact of life straight out, because you have obviously never been a professional soldier. No one has more balls than those Air Force PJs. When they committ, the AO is usually hot, very hot. Hot going in, hot operating in, and hot during extraction. If you weren’t a blabbering clown, you would know that, and appreciate the job they do. Any recon unit is a walk in the bush compared with thier missions. By definition, Recon doesn’t even engage the enemy.
You’re a circus clown, and you give the impression that all marines are circus clowns. Do the marine corps a service, and shut the fuck up.
LMAO !! You guys are like girl scouts or is it brownies? What a JOKE!
The Author proved his point with the coments above. The rattling of the Marine PR Machine by Jerry. Look Jerry every time I have heard a General give a pep talk they tend to butter up the troops. Like unit such and such could lick the entire Taliban hoard blind folded. General comets tend to be full of $hit!
AS For “Cpl Marine”, how in the hell could the suvivors of the 31st Infantry regiment (385 or so) surrvivors retreve the bodies of the 2100 dead US Army brothers? The 31st Infantry saved the Marines 3 days of valuable time at Chosen for their retreat.
The worst retreat in the history of the U.S.:
8th Army retreated 275 miles south to the DMZ
The worst surrender in the history of the U.S.
The Battle of the Phillippines over 100k troops surrendered by Army Gen Wainwright
My father fought at the Chosen Reservoir with the 1st Mar Div and he helped retrieve the Army dead and the equipment that was abandoned upon the 8th Army “Bug Out Boogie” retreat.
The never leave anyone behind Marines abandoned the 31st RCT and then claimed the 31sr RCT did not fight.
The Army on Bataan surrendered after it had fought to the bitter end. It had been abandoned.
It is interesting that although very few Marines ever fought on Bataa an(fewer than 100 of the 11,000-12,000 American personnel on Bataan were Marines) some Marines claim that Marines played a significant role in defending Bataan.
To that I say again, Marines, concentrate on your own accomplishments and stop trying to claim what the Army has done as your own
“The worst surrender in the history of the U.S.
The Battle of the Phillippines(sic) over 100k troops surrendered by Army Gen Wainwright”
The largest surrender in US History was the surrender of US Troops on Bataan.
For four months, US Army troops fought a bitter battle against the Japanese lacking everything an Army in the field would have needed to fight. The troops on Bataan surrendered because they had very gallantly fought under impossible conditions until they could literally fight no more. They had no ammunition, no food, no medication, and most of them were sick from disease and malnutrition.
While Army troops were fighting so gallantly in difficult circumstances on Bataan, the 4th Marine Regiment remained on Corregidor, contributing nothing to the Defense of Bataan. That, nevertheless, has not prevented the Marine Corps from claiming credit for defending Bataan, another example of the Corps appropriating Army valor and heroism as its own.
The Marines took thousands of killed and wounded in a poorly planned assault on Betio in the Tarawa Atoll. A year later, they took thousands of killed and wounded in a poorly planned, poorly executed assault on Peleliu. Marine generals were responsible for planning and executing the battle for Peleliu. That has not stopped the Corps from blaming the Army, specifically General MacArthur, for the bloodbath on Peleliu.
“The worst surrender in the history of the U.S.
The Battle of the Phillippines over 100k troops surrendered by Army Gen Wainwright”.
Marines have a lot of heartburn because General MacArthur did not recommend the 4th Marine Regiment for a Presidential Unit Citation when he left the Philippines. The Marines think the 4th Marine regiment should be commended for their performance in the Philippines but the Soldiers should receive no respect.
The real historical situation is that the Soldiers fought a very gallant, bitter battle against the Japanese on Bataan. That was the main part of the defense of the Philippines. While that battle the 4th Marine Regiment sat on Corregidor completely out of the fight.
The above quote is one of the greatest pieces of hypocrisy any Marine has ever spouted.
“My father fought at the Chosen Reservoir with the 1st Mar Div and he helped retrieve the Army dead and the equipment that was abandoned upon the 8th Army “Bug Out Boogie” retreat.”
1st Marine Division was in no position to exert any effect on the Chinese who attacked 8th Army. There was a lot of impassable terrain between X Corps and 8th Army. 8th Army was routed. But it recovered to fight the Chinese on its own, no help from 1st Marine Division.
First, I have never heard a Chosen Marine ever claim that 31RCT didn’t fight, The never leave a Marine Behind at the time, every damn soldier from where ever was being over run, and call it retreat or what have you… The Marines at the time just couldn’t go up into that meat grinder to pick up fallen soldiers. That’s ridiculous, you change the words of Generals to fit your needs on this blog… If I was asked as a General to please go get my boys.. In that the Chosen, I would certainly have to let you know in probably better words that It just cannot be done to send up anybody till Spring.
Again, I have never heard of anybody in the USMC claim that the Corp Played any bigger a role then the Army in defense of Bataan.. Never.. However there was a small Battery of Marines that with the sick and wounded continued to man their guns in defense of Bataan, they too were in the Death March…. Please do not put words into the mouth of the USMC, shut those up that give you false information. Quit your fight with false accusations. Marines were on Corregidor and with the entire fucking Japanese ship armada between them and Bataan, they could of never gone to the aid of those on the island. Mac Arthur and his entourage made it off the island that’s for sure…
Fake news. Jarhead propaganda. Jarheads could not even hold a small island called Wake. Jarheads surrendered after 15 days of fighting. The Soldiers in the Philippines where isolated and fought for 51 days before running out of supplies and had no choice, also the Philippines is way bigger than Wake ever will be. The 8th Army was being overwhelmed by the bigger Chinese forces and the 8th Army was spread thin over the warzone. The 8th Army was pushed backed but after several months they pushed up and retook Seoul and back to the 38th parallel. The reason the Chinese got involved was that the 8th Army actually pushed into North Korea and the Chinese did not like this and intervened and helped the North Koreans. Nice try crayon eater.
….have any of you researched the ‘author’ of this ‘report?’ Well I have (just a little at least) and he is a kook; he writes stuff like 9/11 was a cover-up/inside job/Bush conspiracy, etc, etc, etc. And you would believe any of this B.S.? As a Marine who served in Iraq (infantry) in 2003 (invasion), 2005, and 2007/2008, I would have to say that 99.9% of his Iraq stuff is B.S. The Army’s doctrine was not to engage, the Marine Corp’s was to engage. What else can I tell you all….OUT!!
Keep eating crayons. More jarhead propaganda. Prove that it is 99.9% b.s. There is no Army doctrine not to engage the enemy. Jarheads are not special.
All Ill say is “When they stop talking about you, you no longer matter” and the U.S. Army will always try and compare itself to the the Corps because the Marine Corps heritage and legacy speak for itself. Everyone knows the Army will take anyone and the Marine Corps will only take “The Few and the Pround” my father served at “The Chosin Resevoir” and he will tell you The 8th Army disgraced itself with its retreat while leaving their dead, wounded and equipment but 1st Mar Div. brought them out. I have read extensively about Fallujah and the Marines did a fantastic job in both battles and this straight from ARMY Lt Col. Ralp Peters Ralph Peters:
FALLUJAH, Iraq – Fallujah and the Marines have some history. In 2004, one savage battle ended when the Marines were pulled out for political reasons. Later that year, they had to finish the job and a job they did well.
I can only conclude the author of this article didnt make the Marine Corps cut or maybe his father didnt and this is where the animosity stems never the less his article is inaccurated and filled with fictitious statements but hey “When they stop talking about you , you no longer matter”
Casey S. Shattuck
US marine Defeat in Fallujah
Monday 3 May 2004.
By Joaquín Bustelo
With the withdrawal of American marines from their most advanced positions in the city of Fallujah, the United States is recognizing its first great defeat of the Iraq War.
Late in March, U.S. Marines, which had recently taken over the Fallujah area from an army unit, staged a provocative raid into the City, which had been largely left alone for months by the U.S. commanders due to lack of forces.
This was part of an overall escalation of aggressive actions by the U.S. occupation, including the banning of an Islamic paper and a kangaroo puppet court indictment of the Shia cleric that paper represented.
What the United States forces were attempting to do was to retake the political-military offensive against the growing insurgency basing itself on what it imagined was a strengthened political position based on the agreement of Iraqi collaborationists to the rules for a quisling “sovereign” government after June 30. This, in turn, would set the stage for consolidating U.S. domination under “sovereign” control.
At the end of March, in part in reaction to this raid, insurgent forces ambushed and the population —especially the youth—then lynched four heavily armed ostensible U.S. soldiers of fortune, who, for some reason that’s not been explained, were driving through what is essentially a town where Iraqi anti-occupation partisans operated freely.
At least three of the four American operatives were experienced graduates of the regular U.S. special forces. This means they were well-trained —and as likely as not experienced— in counter-insurgency and operating behind enemy lines.
That they simply decided to take a joy ride through Fallujah is unthinkable. The explanation that best fits what they were doing is that they were CIA or other intelligence officers on a recognizance or operational mission using “security contractor” status as cover. (The case of the captured Italians appears to be similar).
Supposedly, they were driving to Jordan through no-man’s land in the middle of the night, a “cover” story that doesn’t stand the giggle test.)
On April 5, the Marines started an attack on Fallujah, but met very strong resistance from a well-led, well-trained partisan force. Even with reinforcements and including “heavier” units, the Marines were unable to make much of a dent in the city’s defenses despite ferocious Marine fire that killed hundreds of civilians.
At the same time, the U.S. faced simultaneous popular uprisings in a half dozen other major population centers. Both in Fallujah and elsewhere, the U.S. trained Iraqi police and military collapsed and dispersed without resisting the popular uprising.
The sole exception that has been named were Kurd forces who have been collaborating with the CIA for more than a decade.
Anti-U.S. forces were able to consolidate their control in two cities, Fallujah and Najaf.
Unable to defeat the rebels militarily or to accept the high political cost of many thousand Iraqi civilian casualties from continuing to try through direct assault, the marines then laid siege to Fallujah.
In Najaf, which lies to the South, the U.S. faced additional complications. This part of the country was under the control of U.S. allies who have no intention of letting their troops go much beyond traffic-cop duty.
To fight the insurgents, the U.S. thus had to deploy its own forces to Najaf, and they met a well-coordinated campaign of harassment and sabotage of communications lines, which slowed their progress.
The actual siege of Fallujah lasted for about three weeks. The U.S. variously described the situation as a suspension of its offensive military operations or even a cease fire agreement (to which the other side was not a party!), but it was in fact an attempt at a siege, a well recognized offensive military operation.
It seems during this siege the U.S. forces also took very significant casualties. How many U.S. troops were involved it is impossible to know — the number that has been mentioned in one or another dispatch by the better war correspondents is 3,000.
CNN reported yesterday that, of the 130 or so combat deaths the U.S. had in April, more than half were in Fallujah. This means at least 70 dead.
Assuming the normal wounded-to-killed ratio in Iraq (between 5-to-1 and 7-to-1, depending on whether you include those who supposedly did not die in combat but accidents, etc.), this would mean total casualties in the 400-650 range.
Anything close to even the lower figure means that quite likely, a number of platoons and companies were eliminated as effective military units and had to be replaced or reconstituted.
The popular insurrections and especially the resistance in Fallujah have broken the back of the specific forms the U.S. had given its political project in Iraq.
The multi-party coalition supposedly so laboriously stitched together by Bremer, who answers to Rumsfeld, has been dumped, and instead the political transition has been seconded lock, stock and barrel to Kofi Annan’s Lakhdar Brahimi.
One indication of the crisis in the U.S. command created by its defeat in Fallujah were the contradictory reports in the past few days about the deal to end the Fallujah siege.
The Marines officially announced the agreement late Wednesday or early Thursday through for-attribution statements by a colonel. But that such a deal had been struck was denied by the spokespeople for the top of the chain of command both in Baghdad and in the Pentagon, only to be confirmed 18-24 hours later.
Supposedly, the U.S. Marines are handing over control to an Iraqi force of about 1,000 composed of what the U.S. normally describes as “regime remnants.” It is led by a former Saddam general who is described as being in association with several other Saddam generals.
In reality, the U.S. is withdrawing from its most advanced positions within Fallujah, leaving the entire city in the hands of the rebels, except for a couple of vehicle checkpoints, because, of course, the most salient thing to notice about this new Fallujah Brigade or Fallujah Army is that *it does not exist.*
It *may* exist in the future, for the here and now, the role it plays is simply a face-saving way for the Marines to disengage, retreat and leave the town under Iraqi rebel control.
Another thing to note is that it represents a more-or-less open repudiation of the Rumsfeld-Bremer de-Baathification of Iraq and is of a piece with taking the political transition out of Bremer’s hands and giving it to Brahimi.
The new unit has no connection to the Bremer-sponsored new Iraqi army/police/civil defense forces, and reports directly to the head of the Marine Expeditionary Force, not at all through any Iraqi chain of command.
A third thing to note is that the agreement with the generals represents a defeat for Bremer in an additional way. He was the sponsor through his ventriloquist dummy government council of the talks with the “sheiks” and political parties and religious figures in Fallujah. The talks with the Baathist generals were a parallel track pursued by the Marine command.
Put this together with the fact that Bremer has been fired (he is being replaced by Negroponte, eminence gris of the contra war against Nicaragua who reports to Colin Powell, not Rumsfeld).
I think what this all adds up to is that I believe the U.S. is abandoning the goofy Rumsfeld-Cheney project of creating an Iraq client regime from nothing, and instead is going to try to turn back the clock a year and try to put together a state apparatus from pieces of the old regime.
Whether this is now possible I can’t pretend to know; the U.S. was quite thorough in smashing the old Iraqi state and in doing so made a lot of enemies. An early test of whether this is really a new policy will be to see what the U.S. does in Najaf.
But of necessity, this also means reaching an accommodation with many elements of the old Iraqi ruling class. And I would not be surprised to find that some of the Cheney-Rumsfeld pet “private contractors” suddenly find themselves in disfavor. Bringing in the U.N. means essentially dealing cards to the U.S. imperialist rivals/allies. Room has to be made for them at the table.
The strategic objective of the new policy will be to split the resistance. It is clear from their operations in April that at least a large wing of the resistance is under a unified and competent general staff with extensive intelligence and other military resources. If U.S. intelligence estimates are right, the force in Fallujah (2000+) was the partisan equivalent of a brigade.
Keeping such a force coherent in battle requires a significant cadre of officers. This means that people involved in the old army are probably involved in the resistance. This highlights the stupidity of the course the U.S. has followed until now.
But this whole perspective is only realistic to the extent some measure of control is returned to the Iraqis. That is dangerous to the U.S., because a new Iraqi authority may well have no choice but to take a stance of demanding an end to the occupation if it is to have somewhat more credibility. And the resounding U.S. defeat in Fallujah only makes that more likely.
100% agreed i know a guy a my chruch that was a marine that fought at chosin revosior and a Marine that fought on Okinawa, i always know an ex Force Recon and Marsoc Marine. And i knew another guy that was just Force Recon. and my teacher asked her Friend who was an Army Ranger to come sit down and talk to be so i know the Corps is the best.
Joaquin Bustelo is a fag.. His writings are bullshit on everything he believes in…
Marine Corps heritage is largely falsely claiming credit for what the Army did, such as fighting in the Battle of Trenton, defeating the British at New Orleans, capturing Chapultepec in the Mexican war, defending Bataan, saving Korea.
Sheesh Mike.. I’m ashamed we share a first name. I’ve never heard Marine Corps claim to have fought at the Battle of Trenton.. I’ve seen poorly researched articles mention it however. Also never heard them claim to have defeated the British at New Orleans.. only that they held the center of Jackson’s line there – which they did. Nor do they claim to have captured Chapultepec.. but they did help to storm the walls, being some of the first troops over the wall as part of Capt Casey’s storming party (about 40 marines out of a part of 250..). However, at that point the battle was a rout. Not sure why you have such a hard-on to discredit the Corps but set aside some of your obvious bias and read some history.
“…the U.S. Army will always try and compare itself to the the Corps because the Marine Corps heritage and legacy speak for itself.”
Wrong.
The Marine Corps has no legacy comparable to that of the US Army. It is the Marine Corps, which claims the Army’s history, e.g. First to Fight, 235+ years of continuous service to the US, playing the key role in all US Wars. Those all properly belong to the US Army.
Between 1783 and 1798 the only armed force this country had were Army units. There was no Marine Corps those years.
Wrong, fake news. Jarheads provide more waivers for its recruits that disqualify them from other branches, Such as felonies, duis and low ADSVAB scores. The Army usually only talks about the jarheads and their famous cult they belong to because it truly is bizzare. Soldiers love their country, jarheads love the Corps. Jarheads have no loyalty except the Corps. Soldiers have loyalty to their country. Just because you supposedly read about Fallujah doesnt make you subject matter expert especially since you provide no proof. Wow a hand me down story from a family member that was a jarhead that somehow proves that the 8th Army left everyone for dead. Keep eating crayons.
Cowardly Marines
Posted on Wed, Jan. 30, 2002
Capt. Jason Amerine and the men of his Army Special Forces unit were honored
to be invited to Tuesday night’s State of the Union address.
But Amerine can’t forget the heroes who weren’t there: men who lost their
lives in Operation Enduring Freedom and an Air Force pilot who risked his
life when he made the quick decision to fly into hostile territory and rescue
wounded soldiers.
“Yes, I’ll be glad when my 15 minutes of fame are over. We’re poster
children for the war,” said Amerine, from his hotel room in Washington,
D.C. “I can’t enjoy this because of the cost of the party.”
In Kansas City, Bill McElhiney was proud that his son, Sgt. 1st Class Michael
McElhiney, was among those singled out by the president. But he’s quick to
say that his son is alive because of the helicopter commander who didn’t
hesitate to answer a call for help.
“As far as I’m concerned, that pilot should get a medal for saving my son,”
said Bill McElhiney, whose son needed 17 units of blood. “People need to
know what this guy did. His quick actions saved my son, and I’ll be forever
grateful.”
Until now, the pilot’s actions have gone unreported, one of the many untold
stories of this clandestine war.
Pulling together
It was early December and almost balmy on that hilltop overlooking
Kandahar. The Army’s 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group, also known
as the Green Berets, had operated a successful two-month mission.
With just 11 Special Forces men and dozens of newly trained Afghanistan
anti-Taliban soldiers, the team had saved an entire town from being
slaughtered by the Taliban. They had fought hand-to-hand in another area
of Afghanistan.
On Dec. 5, with a surrender from Kandahar imminent, the American soldiers
were upbeat. Although they had missed Thanksgiving, birthdays and
anniversaries, their mission was almost over. They were so close to being
done. So close to going home.
No one expected death to enter so swiftly.
Even before the echo of the bomb disappeared, Amerine knew his best
friend was dead.
Sgt. 1st Class Dan Petithory’s body was still. His injury had been violent. His
desert camouflage uniform was now splattered red.
Tears began to sting Amerine’s 30-year-old face, but his training calmed
him. What mattered now was to save those that could be saved.
Must have been a friendly, he thought of the errant bomb. Amerine would
learn later that an American soldier on the ground had made a deadly
error: instead of giving the B-52s the enemy’s coordinates, he had
accidentally given their own. The bomb dropped directly on their own
position.
Amerine looked again at his friend’s body even as he called for help. It was
9:30 a.m. local time. He estimated that even though the 1,300-Marine Camp
Rhino base, a remote desert airstrip commanded by Brig. Gen. James
Mattis, was a one-hour helicopter ride away, it would take at least two hours
for them to arrive.
And flying in daylight is a risky mission for a pilot in Afghanistan. Air Force MH-53
Pave Low helicopters make for easy targets to any Taliban member with a
gun. Even one who’s a bad shot.
The scene before Amerine was surreal. Wounded bodies. Dead bodies.
Demolished vehicles.
Amerine blinked back tears. He wouldn’t allow himself the luxury to grieve
yet. Now, he needed to check on his men.
He prayed that the leader of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, who was traveling
with them, was all right now. Karzai had been a member of their team,
negotiating with the Taliban for surrender and inviting other Afghans to fight
with the Americans. Karzai was a friend to the Americans. They ate
together. They drank green tea together. Now, they had bled together.
At the point of the bomb’s impact were 10 Afghani soldiers, killed instantly.
Two other Americans were dead or dying: Master Sgt. Jefferson Donald
Davis, 39, of Tennessee, and Staff Sgt. Brian Cody Prosser, 28, of
California.
Dozens of others were injured. But Karzai, with just a small wound on his
forehead, was already moving among the soldiers, trying his best to
comfort those he could.
Of all the wounded, one soldier seemed to be the most severely injured:
McElhiney, a 1989 Hickman Mills High School graduate. His right hand was
mangled. He was bleeding heavily on his left side. He struggled to breathe.
His lower torso was hot, burned by the blast.
“Man, you look like hell,” Amerine said to him. McElhiney mumbled
something about looking pretty. Idle chitchat. Gallows humor. But it keeps
panic away. And McElhiney, laying in a pool of his own blood, even
managed to grin.
After satisfying himself with the condition of his men, Amerine returned to
Petithory’s body. Carefully, gently, he placed the body inside his own
sleeping bag and zipped it up.
A poem called “Futility,” by Wilfred Owen, floated out from some long-ago
memorization. Amerine would have laughed except for its absolute perfect
eloquence in this moment: Move him into the sun … Gently its touch awoke
him once … At home, whispering of fields unsown …
He looked again at the body. The tears came. And he let himself cry. He
tried to purge his grief on Afghan soil.
Soon, another soldier came over and joined him. Without saying a word, he
too sat by the body.
A saving grace
Amerine spotted a small concrete outbuilding. Those who could helped
transport the wounded to one side of the building. Amerine ordered that the
dead be on the other side, out of sight of the wounded.
Hours came and went. Three and a half hours passed. Finally, a wondrous
sound from the sky grew louder. Flying low and slow, circling over the
horizon, were two lumbering black helicopters.
“They were beautiful, ponderous birds,” recalled Amerine, his voice almost
a whisper. “They were so big. To see them fly is to see man defying
gravity.”
The helicopters were from an Air Force Special Operations Wing base in
Pakistan.
The Air Force helicopters left within 20 minutes after Amerine’s calls for help
more than three hours earlier. Lt. Col. Steve Hadley, a medical doctor in the
16th Special Operations Wing, made the decision to go. In order to make
the long flight without running out of fuel and to make room for the
wounded, he removed equipment to lighten the helicopters’ weight.
Hadley was able to make the decision to leave so quickly because he had
the authority and didn’t have to check with superiors. He tried not to think
about how dangerous it was to fly in daylight over Afghanistan.
The helicopters landed a safe distance from the wounded. Hadley, in a flight
suit and a helmet, jumped out of the chopper before the blades had stopped
whirling. He gave Amerine a hug.
“Sorry to see you under these circumstances,” Amerine remembers his
friend saying. The two were friends from previous missions. “I thought we’d
be assisting in a transport. Where are the Marines?”
Amerine couldn’t answer. His other men wondered too, as they loaded the
wounded into the helicopters.
In the days immediately following the rescue, Marine officers told reporters
about their response to those injured by the friendly fire. It was a daytime
mission, they said, flown during a period when all other flights in and out of
the base were conducted only under the cover of night.
Marines said their helicopters left Rhino to ferry out the wounded about two
hours after receiving a call for help. Seven wounded Afghan soldiers were
rescued by a Marine helicopter, accompanied by Cobra gunship helicopters.
The Marines said in December that their slower response was because of
time spent organizing the rescue teams and planning a safe route through
what was considered hostile territory. At the time, nearby Kandahar had not
yet fallen.
Still, despite having to travel a much greater distance, Hadley’s crew
arrived an hour before the Marines.
“If the Air Force responded more quickly, I’m not going to dispute that,”
said Capt. Stewart Upton, a Marine spokesman who was at Rhino at the
time. “The bottom line is that everyone was doing the best that they could.”
On Tuesday, U.S. Central Command in Florida, which overseas all the
operations in the war in Afghanistan, would not release the times of the
rescue flights.
“The whole thing is still involved in an investigation into all the events
surrounding the incident,” Navy Cmdr. Dan Keesee said.
Looking back on Dec. 5, Amerine’s voice grows flat.
“A trust was violated that day,” he said. “They didn’t come because they
thought we had been overrun, and they were attempting to dissect the
situation. Meanwhile, the Air Force launched to help us — immediately.”
Hadley could not be reached for comment because he is in training. But Lt.
Rosemary Heiss of the 16th Special Operations Wing at Hurlburt Field, Fla.,
said no stories have ever been told publicly about the wing for a reason.
“Their missions are secret to protect lives,” she said.
Hadley was at the ceremony at Fort Campbell, Ky., a few weeks ago when
the Green Berets received Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars for their service.
A grateful Kansas City family shook his hand.
“I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Lt. Col. Hadley,” said Michael McElhiney,
who is undergoing treatment at Walter Reed Hospital in the Washington
area. “What can I do for him? If he hadn’t arrived when he did, I would
have bled to death.”
On Tuesday, as the nation watched its president thank three Special Forces
soldiers, perhaps Hadley was watching, too.
The Star’s Scott Canon contributed to this article.
A Military Mission Gone Wrong-Marine Corps Disaster-The Mayaguez Incident
ARLINGTON, Virginia, January 24, 2001
Description:
Less than two weeks after the Communist conquest of South Vietnam, forces of the Communist Khmer Rouge in Cambodia attacked and seized an American merchant ship, the Mayaguez, and captured the crew. President Gerald Ford reacted by sending in the Marines to rescue the crew.
The Khmer Rouge released the crew, but not before inflicting casualties on the American force. A total of 41 Marines and Airmen died, with 50 wounded. See the links below for more detail on the actual combat operations.
Casualties:
U.S.: 41 total dead and missing. 18 Marines and Airmen killed in action/missing in action. 23 Marines killed in a helicopter crash during the operation. 50 wounded.
Cambodia/Khmer Rouge: 60 killed (estimate)
(CBS) In a two-part series, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports on new information that casts doubt on the declared success of a 25-year-old military mission.At the motel where she works, the graveyard shift can be lonely. But Gail Hargrove has had 25 years of practice being alone.
On the day of her wedding, she was 18, and her bridegroom was 23.
Just 33 days later, she said goodbye to her new husband, Cpl. Joseph Hargrove, as he shipped out for the Far East.
Two months later, in April 1975, the war in Vietnam ended. As Americans fled Saigon, Joseph Hargrove was thousands of miles away on a Marine base in Japan, writing love letters to Gail: “I love thinking of you. There’s nothing I’d rather do. And when this year is up, my love, I’m coming back to you.”
But he never came back.
Just two weeks after the humiliating defeat in Vietnam, Cambodia seized an American merchant ship, the S.S. Mayaguez. U.S. intelligence said the crew was taken to the island of Koh Tang.
Cpl. Hargrove was part of a rescue mission ordered by President Ford. It was hailed as a success.
At the time, President Gerald Ford announced, “The vessel has been recovered intact, and the entire crew has been rescued.”
But, according to military documents and films obtained by CBS News and also according to interviews with veterans of the Mayaguez incident, the operation was an intelligence disaster that needlessly cost American lives.
A Last Love Letter
Just For You
The day of the battle, May 15, 1975, was the last day Joseph Hargrove was seen alive. It was also his birthday. His last love letter to Gail, which she received a few days after he disappeared, was postmarked May 15, 1975. It included the following poem.
I’d walk 1,000 miles.
I’d swim across the ocean.
I’d work all day and all night, too.
These are just a few of the things I’d do just for you.
I’ll make you as happy as anybody could be.
I’ll make you a queen because a queen you are to me.
I’ll do anything you ask.
I would steal.
I would lie.
I’d be blue.
I’d do anything you ask, darling.
I would even die…just for you.
Your loving husband,
Joseph
Jim Davis and other Marine officers planned the assault, even though no maps of the island were available. They didn’t even havproper aerial photos. Davis actually went up in a Navy plane and took his own photos, using a camera and film bought at a base PX. But the plane was too high and the fuzzy images were not much help.
The Marine officers were told to expect 14 to 40 lightly armed pirates on Koh Tang Island. Instead, hundreds of heavily armed Cambodians were waiting.
Incredibly, intelligence reports prepared two days before the assault accurately estimated as many as 300 heavily armed Cambodian soldiers on the island. But the Marines never saw those reports.
Just before the assault began, as he was boarding his helicopter, Davis was finally handed spy-plane photos of the island. They showed fortifications and a Cambodian force that was dug in and ready for battle.
Most of his Marines had never been in combat. Davis, as one of the few combat veterans, knew they were in trouble. He recalls, “Having been in Vietnam, I’ll be honest with you, what went through my head was, ‘Oh, Lord! Here we go again.'”
Planes circling the island in the days before the attack took anti-aircraft fire and saw 30 to 50 campfires in the jungle below. Again, the information was not passed on.
And the Mayaguez crew wasn’t even on Koh Tang Island. The men had been released at a different location before the Marines had even landed.
As the U.S. Air Force helicopters carrying the Marines prepared to land on Koh Tang, the Cambodians opened fire.
Most of the rescue mission’s helicopters were severely damaged. Three of them were blown out of the sky.
The final toll: 15 dead, 50 wounded, and three missing, including Joseph Hargrove.
“A few good men can’t do their job if you don’t give them a few good facts,” says Gail Hargrove.
“It still wears very heavy on your mind, those that did not make it out, especially the missing. That part was a disaster,” says Davis.
“It was a bad day,” concludes Gail Hargrove. “A real bad day.”
The widow and the officer recently met at the funeral of another casualty of the Mayaguez incident. And they discovered they are bound together not only by sorrow but by a fear — fear that the three missing Marines were left behind.
Alive.
“I worry about the worst scenario, the fact that they could have survived for days,” says Davis. “They could have been captured.”
Marine Caused Disaster of Operation Eagle Claw
…Marine pilots, who ended up flying almost all of the helicopters, had little experience in long distance flying over land with night vision goggles. They were not special operations personnel, and had no experience with sand storm conditions. The incompetent US Marine Corp caused the whole mission to fail and disgraced the United States as a result
Component training was mainly carried out in widely separated locations: Hurlburt Field, Florida for the Air Force; Yuma, Arizona and Twenty-nine Palms, California for the Marines; and Fort Bragg, North Carolina for Delta Force. Rarely did participants see members from other services, and there was no “full up” dress rehearsal. In fact, problems which surfaced during training tended to reappear during the actual mission. However, crewmen seemed satisfied that their individual parts in the operation would work as expected, and they were confident of success.
The Marine Mission Dissaster
After five months of planning and preparation, the Eagle Claw participants were deployed for mission execution. Just after seven p.m. on the 24th of April, 1980, the eight helicopters (called “Bluebeard”) departed from the Nimitz, nearly 60 miles off the coast of Iran. They had been preceded by the EC-130 refuelers (“Republic”) and the MC-130s (“Dragon”), carrying Delta Force, from Masirah.
Less than two hours into the mission, Bluebeard 6 had an indicator light warn of a main rotor blade spar crack. This was often a false reading on RH-53Ds, but the crew landed (followed by Bluebeard 8) and decided to abandon the helicopter after inspecting the rotor blades. The two crews flew on to Desert One in Bluebeard 8. The mission was now down one helicopter.
Penetrating deep into Iran, the fixed wing contingent ran into a phenomenon called a “haboob” – fine dust particles which obscured vision. A short time later they ran into another haboob which was much more intense than the first one. Kyle attempted to warn the RH-53s, but had no luck with his communications gear. While these presented minor obstacles to the airplanes, they upset the cohesion of the helicopter flight, which had to disperse in order to avoid collision. The helicopter pilots had never even been briefed on the existence of haboob conditions, or their effects on low-flying formations. In the middle of this, Bluebeard 5 had an electrical power problem which convinced the crew to abort back to the Nimitz. Maintaining radio silence, they were unable to alert Kyle or Seiffert that they were pulling out. The mission was now down two helicopters.
A fuel truck burns
A bus is stopped and a fuel truck burns after being attacked during Desert One
The MC-130s and EC-130s arrived at Desert One after midnight without mishap and waited for the helicopters, over an hour past their scheduled arrival time. Delta Force debarked from two of the MC-130s which then, according to plan, departed from the scene. A Ranger team and Delta troopers set up security around the site and immediately had problems. A bus full of Iranian civilians had to be stopped and detained as it was passing through, and a fuel truck (probably run by smugglers) was shot with a 66mm rocket when it refused to stop. In the light of the burning fuel, the raiders could see the driver escape in a pickup truck which was following the tanker.
Six helicopters out of the original eight made it into Desert One. However, Bluebeard 2’s secondary hydraulic system indicated failure, and Seiffert made the call that it was “no go” for that helicopter. With only five helicopters left, Beckwith was forced to conclude that the mission could not go on, as six had been the agreed minimum needed for the operation. In reality, five may have sufficed, but Beckwith knew that the operation was tight – down to the last button – and he could not afford to risk mission collapse by continuing with only part of the force. A disappointed Kyle radioed Vaught (who was headquartered at Wadi Kena) and Washington recommending mission abort. Astoundingly, within 20 minutes the word had reached President Carter and gotten back down to Kyle to abort the mission.
As the force prepared to depart, Bluebeard 3 hovered into Republic 4 and started a conflagration which spread to other aircraft and killed eight men. In the confusion, Kyle made sure that all the live personnel were accounted for, released the Iranian civilians, and loaded up the surviving 130s to evacuate the area. Unfortunately some of the helicopters could not be reached for “sanitizing” and their classified material (including names of Iranians working for the Americans) fell into the hands of the revolutionary government.
After somewhat harrowing takeoffs, the remaining 130s got airborne and returned to Masirah. The agent contacts in Iran went to ground, and the other aircraft and units assigned supporting parts in the mission stood down.
Destroyed helicopter
Debris of a destroyed helicopter in Desert One during the failed rescue
Aftermath
After the failure of Eagle Claw, another even larger and more ambitious rescue planning effort was started, but it would go nowhere. The Iranian hostages and Desert One would continue to haunt Carter and help to elect his successor, Ronald Reagan.
Congress took an immediate interest in the flawed operation and both houses opened hearings. These faded rather quickly in favor of the Department of Defense’s Special Operations Review Group, better known as the Holloway Commission. This body examined some 23 issues and provided ten conclusions. While these highlighted some of the more egregious faults, they soft pedaled others. Sadly, the final conclusion is that the Marine Corp caused the Dissaster of Operation Eagle Claw.
Your a bull shitter man, once again another post to discredit the Marine Corp…
Final conclusion, Retired Chief of Naval Operations Admiral James L. Holloway III led the official investigation in 1980 into the causes of the operation’s failure on behalf of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Holloway Report primarily cited deficiencies in mission planning, command and control, and inter-service operability, and provided a catalyst to reorganize the Department of Defense, and the Goldwater-Nichols Act of 1986
What is the purpose? Bringing up false facts…
You’re the bull shitter. You’re a jarhead that has provide no proof that your quote is factual. Keep eating crayons and praying to your cult. Its very common knowledge that jarheads don’t man up to their failures and blame everyone and everything else, except themselves. Jarheads tend to screw things up and will continue to screw things up. Jarheads are not special.
JIM LEHRER: The trial of the Marine aviators involved in the Italian cable car disaster: Phil Ponce begins our coverage.
gondolaPHIL PONCE: One year ago today, a Marine Corps jet on a low-altitude training mission in Northern Italy clipped an aerial cable at a ski resort in Cavalese, Italy. A gondola filled with skiers plunged about 360 feet to the ground, killing all 20 passengers. The plane was damaged, but the four-member crew returned safely to the U.S air base in Aviano. When officials learned that the plane had cut the cable and caused the accident, all four crew men were grounded. Residents who live nearby had often complained about fast, low-flying military planes. The Marines immediately launched an investigation and sent a team from the United States to figure out what had happened. On March 12th, they released their findings.
MAJ. GEN. MICHAEL DE LONG, U.S. Marine Corps: The cause of this accident was not the weather or aircraft malfunctions or equipment failure, but the actions of the air crew.
mapPHIL PONCE: Regulations listed a minimum flight level of 2,000 feet, but the crew claims they were told they could fly as low as 1,000 feet. The cable was about 360 feet off the ground when it was cut. Pilot Captain Richard J. Ashby and navigator Captain Joseph P. Schweitzer face court-martial and possible life sentences if they’re convicted. Both are charged with 20 counts of involuntary manslaughter and 20 counts of negligent homicide. Charges were dropped against two other crew members who were sitting in the back of the plane, away from the control panel, at the time of the accident.
60 minutes interviewIn an interview last month on the CBS program 60 Minutes, the pilot, Captain Ashby, said, “Mistakes were made and that’s obvious, otherwise, it wouldn’t have happened, but they weren’t all our mistakes” – and “we never intended intentionally ever to fly below 1000 feet. That is the God saken truth.” Ashby insisted that the maps he was given for the training flight did not show the ski resort or the cable line. Jury selection in Ashby’s trial begins tomorrow in Camp LeJeune, North Carolina. The navigator’s trial is scheduled for March.
Disgraceful US Marine Guilty in Teo Peter Death in Romania
By Joshua, February 8, 2006 12:11 pm
Marine Staff Sgt. Christopher VanGoethem faced four main charges: negligent homicide, adultery, obstruction of justice and making false official statements. “VanGoethem is facing charges that he committed adultery with an embassy official?s daughter the night of the accident, then obstructed justice and made false statements in an attempt to cover up his involvement with the woman.”
Marine cleared in death of Romanian gets reprimand
“…Marine Staff Sgt. Christopher VanGoethem [was] given a letter of reprimand for obstructing justice and making false official statements… he will be allowed to complete his contract, which has a year remaining. But because the two charges he was found guilty of are federal offenses, VanGoethem will not be permitted to re-enlist, effectively ending his 15-year career.”
Here are the facts of the case, as reported by Stars and Stripes here and here:
“In the early morning hours of Dec. 4, 2004, VanGoethem was driving an embassy-owned sport utility vehicle that collided with a taxi at an intersection in the capital, killing 50-year-old Romanian rock star Teofil Peter… a 50-year-old veteran producer and bassist for the rock band Compact, died after a collision that occurred in the early morning hours of Dec. 4, 2004.
In his opening argument, lead prosecutor Marine Capt. Charles Miracle told the board that VanGoethem, the married father of two, ignored three stoplights and broadsided Teofil?s taxi. Then he lied to investigators about his whereabouts the night of the accident, Miracle said. The embassy official?s daughter, Ilse Wentworth, first corroborated VanGoethem?s version of events, but later admitted to Wilson and other embassy officials that the Marine had asked her to lie on his behalf, Wilson said.
In his own opening statement, VanGoethem?s lead defender, Maj. Phil Stackhouse, told the board that Bucharest traffic is so ?chaotic? and the intersection where the accident occurred so confusingly marked that the Marine guard could not possibly have avoided the collision, even though he was driving under the posted speed limit ?and the taxi was speeding.?
You can read an account of the traffic patterns in Romania’s intersection here. You can read my initial report here. About Romanian traffic laws, the court brought in “Romanian security officer Stefan Berciu, a senior investigator in the Bucharest embassy, [who] said that traffic in Bucharest is “very congested,” and that despite a lengthy licensing process that includes 30 hours of on-the-road training, many Romanians don’t obey traffic laws. “Do people park on the sidewalk in Bucharest?” lead prosecutor Marine Captain Charles Miracle asked Berciu. “A lot,” Berciu replied.”
Note, however, that people park on the sidewalk in just about every Eastern European city, and was not an issue in that particular intersection. I have been in that intersection many times, and I know that it can be confusing, especially if you’re not used to driving it.
What was the main reason why the marine was not charged? This is what caused a Romanian government official to term “bizarre:” The prosecution couldn’t prove that Teo Peter was there.
Let that sink in for a moment. Teo Peter died in a car accident that night. However, “The chief defender… argued in court that none of the witnesses brought in to testify against VanGoethem actually saw musician Teo Peter at the scene of the fatal traffic accident on December 4, 2004…”
How is that possible? “Examples of witnesses the prosecution could have presented but did not, Stackhouse contended, include a Romanian police officer who was on the scene of the accident, or the firefighter who helped free Peter’s body from the wreckage, or the ambulance driver, reported Stars and Stripes. “There could be stronger evidence” to show Peter was in the cab, [the judge] said after hearing Stackhouse.”
Also, “Dr. Salem Abdo, who conducted the autopsy on Peter, told Realitatea TV that the defense had claimed there was no proof that Peter had been killed by the car driven by VanGoethem. “He had very serious injuries from the accident that caused his instantaneous death,” said Abdo.”
As such, “The prosecutors were unable to counter the arguments of the defense team that Peter was neither riding the taxi, nor died in the subsequent accident.”
Why didn’t “the taxi driver, the driver of the ambulance taking Peter?s body away from the crash-scene, the firefighter who got him out of the damaged taxi, and the policeman arriving first at the scene” testify?
“The driver of the car in which Teo Peter met his end, Marian Chiru, says he was never officially subpoenaed in the VanGoethem trial, but he will involve himself in a possible civil lawsuit open by the victim?s family, if he is asked to do so. Asked if his testimony could have changed something in the decision made at the VanGoethem trial, Chiru said he considers himself ?too small? for such a thing. ?I tell you this, I didn?t think I could change anything, because I told to myself: I trusted America…,? Chiru declared… President Traian Basescu declared on Friday he cannot understand that a Romanian did not want to go to the USA as a witness in the VanGoethem trial, also considering this was a lack of communication from the authorities. The head of State explained he couldn?t blame the taxi driver, because he was not aware of how serious the situation was.”
Was the trial conducted in a fair manner? According to the U.S., yes.
“A parallel commission supervised the fairness of the trial. The commission was led by the commander of the fourth antiterrorist battalion at Quantico, Van Goethem was a member of. “Such supervision is intended to insure the trial was fair, and that the ruling stays final and unchallenged when such conditions are met,? explained a representative of McCormack & Associates, Attorneys at Law in the state of Virginia, specialized in military law. Sgt Sean Wright said the commission concluded the trial was conducted perfectly.”
To many Romanians and to the Romanian government, the outcome is “bizarre.” The General Prosecutor of Romania, Ilie Botos, does not comment on the decision taken by the American court , but he is indignant, ?as a jurist and as a person,? with the result of this trial.”
So bizarre is the result that the Romanian government will financially assist the family of Teo Peter “in order to open a lawsuit with a civil court from the United States.”
Why are you doing this? Does it make this article of Army vs Marines any better for you.. Do you think The Army asshole being it is 7 times the size of the USMC doesn’t have its fair share of personnel with major indiscretions, For instance just about all your Generals have been fired for one thing or another.. If we choose to research all of the things individuals do while they are part of a Military Service we could certainly find at least 7 times the indiscretions…..
The thing this is proving that jarheads are not special, they screw things up. The other branches don’t claim to be something they are not, the other branches dont have a cult like status. Jarheads claim that they can do everything other branches do, which they cannot.
On 1 May 2004, Iraqi insurgents took to the streets of Fallujah to declare victory over the Marines. “We won,” an Iraqi insurgent told a reporter, explaining they had succeeded by keeping U.S. forces from taking the city.5 Newspaper and televised reports showed Muslim gunmen celebrating their “triumph” with weapons, flags, and victory signs. U.S. authorities explained that a new Iraqi Fallujah Brigade would assume security duties in the city and ultimately accomplish the mission.
Impotent Marines Saved Again by the US Army in Najaf
NAJAF, Iraq, Aug. 17 2004
Acting without the approval of the Pentagon or senior Iraqi officials, the Marine officers said in recent interviews, they turned a firefight with Mr. Sadr’s forces on Thursday, Aug. 5, into a eight-day pitched battle, one fought out in deadly skirmishes in an ancient cemetery that brought them within rifle shot of the Imam Ali Mosque, Shiite Islam’s holiest shrine. Eventually, fresh Army units arrived from Baghdad and took over Marine positions near the mosque, but by then the politics of war had taken over and the American force had lost the opportunity to storm Mr. Sadr’s fighters around the mosque.
Fighting here continues, and what the Marines had hoped would be a quick, decisive action has bogged down into a grinding battle that appears to have strengthened the hand of Mr. Sadr, whose stature rises each time he survives a confrontation with the American military. It may have weakened the credibility of the interim Iraqi government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, showing him, many Iraqis say, to be alternately rash and indecisive, as well as ultimately beholden to American overrule on crucial military and political matters.
As a reconstruction of the battle in Najaf shows, the sequence of events was strikingly reminiscent of the battle of Falluja in April. In both cases, newly arrived Marine units immediately confronted guerrillas in firefights that quickly escalated. And in both cases, the marines failed to achieve its strategic goals, pulling back after the political costs of the confrontation rose. Falluja is now essentially off-limits to American ground troops and has become a haven for Sunni Muslim insurgents and terrorists menacing Baghdad, American commanders say as a result of gross marine incompetence and lack of combat power.
In the end, the US Army comes to the rescue of the marines in both battles. The USMC should disbanded in my professional opinion.
Subject: End of the Marine Regiment?
oregon_x_marine 7/16/2003 4:33:45 PM
In reviewing the order of battle for Gulf War I & II, it has become quite obvious that the traditional Marine Regiment is “too regimented” for modern combined arms warfare. I fear that the legacy and history of Marine units will be seriously diluted or rendered meaningless if changes are not made.
Haditha Murders & Cover-up Committed by US Marines
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident where 24 Iraqi men, women and children were killed by US marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraq province of Al Anbar. At least 15 of those killed were noncombatant civilians, and the 24 were killed by a group of United States Marines. It has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of United States Marines with an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[1]
An initial Marine Corps communique reported that 15 civilians were killed by the bomb’s blast and eight insurgents were subsequently killed when the Marines returned fire against those attacking the convoy. However, other evidence uncovered by the media contradicted the Marines’ account.[2] A Time magazine reporter’s questions prompted the U.S. military to open an investigation into the incident. The investigation claimed it found evidence that “supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians, including unarmed women and children”, according to an anonymous Pentagon official.[3] On December 21, 2006, eight Marines from 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were charged in connection with the incident.[4][5] As of June, 2008, charges against seven of the eight Marines had been dropped.[6]
In the course of the Article 32 hearings, conflicting testimony has been presented, some of it rebutting the media-cited case made by accusers and prosecutors of the Marines. The investigating officer has told the prosecution so far, “The account you want me to believe does not support unpremeditated murder.” He conceded that the central issue was who is to be believed and that he was disinclined to recommend a trial when he thought it was unlikely any Iraqi would agree to come to the U.S. to testify.[7] On 9 August, LtGen James Mattis dropped the charges against Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt,and Lance Cpl Travis Chambers who had been accused of murder, and against Capt. Randy Stone, accused of failing to investigate the incident.[8] On 23 August, the investigating officer recommended charges against Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum be dropped as well[9] but on October 19, his commanding officer decided the charges should be lowered to involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault.[10]
Wikipedia is not a citable source – do your homework before you tarnish the names of good marines who fought for your right to speak freely.
“Wikipedia is not a citable source – do your homework before you tarnish the names of good marines who fought for your right to speak freely.”
Wikipedia is not invariably a reliable source. Wikipedia, for example stated that the Mexican cadets who died in the defense of Chapultepec fought US Marines. Soldiers, not Marines, stormed Chapultepec
Again to mike: both soldiers and marines stormed Chapultepec. I have never heard a marine claim they stormed Chapultepec castle alone. Then again, most marines probably don’t care.
You tarnished jarheads by not spelling them with a capital M. If you cannot provide sources keep eating crayons jarhead.
On November 20, 2005 a Marine press release from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported the deaths of a U.S. marine and 15 civilians. It said that the death of the civilians was a consequence of a roadside bomb and Iraqi insurgents. The initial U.S. military statement read:
“A US marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another.”[2][22]
Eman Waleed, a nine-year-old child who witnessed the incident, described the U.S. Marines entering their house. She said:
“I couldn’t see their faces very well – only their guns sticking in to the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny.”[2]
The director of the local hospital in Haditha, Dr Wahid, said that the 24 bodies were brought in two American humvees [2] to the hospital around midnight on November 19. While the Marines claim that the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb and that the men “were saboteurs”, Dr Wahid said that there were “no organs slashed by shrapnel in any of the bodies”. He further claimed that it appeared that “the victims were shot in the head and chest from close range.”[2]
Soon after the killings, the mayor of Haditha, Emad Jawad Hamza, led an angry delegation of elders up to the Haditha Dam Marine base allegedly complaining to the base captain.[2]
The Marine Corps paid $38,000 to the families of 15 of the dead civilians.[23].
[edit] Evidence about the killings
Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk’s original Time magazine article [3], and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[24] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][25] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack.
the only AK-47 that was discovered that day—apparently a household defensive weapon, of the type that is legal and common in Iraq. No one has claimed that the rifle had been fired.–William Langewiesche in Rules of Engagement, Vanity Fair, November 2006
McGirk’s first article online stated that the Hammurabi Human Rights Group had “coordinated with Human Rights Watch”. A correction was issued when no official links could be confirmed.[2] . Thabet shot video of AQ IED attacks which later were posted on YouTube. The Hammurabi Human Rights Group was founded by Abdul Rahman al-Mashandani, who told Reuters that [4] Hadithi, from Anbar province, was one of six board members, and 10 other administrative staff worked in 14 local offices across Iraq. McGirk, who is based in Jerusalem, declined to testify at the hearings.[26]
Marine Impotence and the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing
A smoke cloud rises from the rubble of the bombed barracks at Beirut International Airport.
Location
Date October 23, 1983
6:20 a.m.
Attack type Suicide truck bombs
Death(s) 241 American servicemen
Attributed to Hezbollah
Lessons learned
Shortly after the bombing, American president Ronald Reagan appointed a military fact-finding committee headed by retired Admiral Robert L.J. Long to investigate the bombing. The commission’s report found senior marine officials responsible for security lapses and blamed the marine chain of command for the disaster. It suggested that there might have been many fewer deaths if the marine guards had carried loaded weapons and a barrier more substantial then the barbed wire the bomber drove over easily.
Following the bombing and the realization that insurgents could deliver weapons of enormous yield with an ordinary truck or van, the presence of protective barriers (bollards) became common around critical government facilities in the United States and elsewhere, particularly in relation to Western civic targets situated overseas.[33]
An article in Foreign Policy titled “Lesson Unlearned” argues that the U.S. military intervention in the Lebanese Civil War has been downplayed or ignored in popular history – thus unlearned – and that lessons from Lebanon are “unlearned” as the U.S. militarily intervenes elsewhere in the world[34
As a French military analyst and after decades of professional military research regarding this subject I set forth that:
All real, impartial and competent military analysts conclude that the USMC should be disbanded due to its incompetence, criminality, impotence and waste of US tax payer resources. A tripartite service structure should be permanently set in place after a complete elimination of the the USMC. The new and much more militarily effective structure would include: smaller and much more UAV/robot oriented Air Force and Navy lead by a slightly larger Army bolstered by vast numbers of advanced UAV/robotic combat forces.
Unfortunately, efforts to maintain the USMC as a component of the US military have historically and currently been based on emotion and not on military efficacy. As a component of the US government all military force must be efficient, potent and competent in order to protect and serve the American people. These then are the only reason for the existence of any military service as emotion need play no valid role.
Stunningly, my research has revealed that the USMC’s war crimes and incompetence actually heighten the odds of terrorism in the areas around the world in which they are involved. Shockingly, the marines have given a black eye to NATO and the US people around the world due to the above mentioned reasons.
Please provide proof of your credentials and nationality, or you’re basically an idiot on the internet. Furthermore, the USMC has proven itself far superior to the Army in relation to its operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I as an Arab would prefer them policing Iraq and Afghanistan rather than the United States Army.
First of Mr Haji, what is your wartime experience or expertise that jarheads are far more superior to the Amy in GWOT? Jarheads have proven to have killed far more innocent civilians than other branches. Just because your an “Arab” this somehow makes your opinion on our GWOT mission credible somehow? Go back to your mud huts and savagery.
thepopulist.wordpress.com is the best. Thank your for this article. I enjoyed it very much.
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G. Durant,
You are french. You do not count. Your country got taken over in a month and is considered the most embarrassing event in the history of humankind. We all know what the Germans did to your women and they murdered your men. They were not casualties because that would mean they died or were wounded in combat and lets face it, well you know where I am going with that. You probably have sunburned armpits from surrendering you French idiot.
You’re an idiot. The French army at that time was one of the smaller, least prepared and disorganised armies it could have been. Much of the country’s military budget had been spent on the in-hindsight useless maginot line, their tanks were distributed in their infantry companies and unlike the Germans, they weren’t willing to mortage their future to create an all-powerful military. Put the Americans of the time or the Canadians in the same position and they’d have crumbled all the same.
Wow!! This article “Never Faithful” is probably the most dishonest and disrespectful of the Americans who died for country and corps, that I have ever read.I would not even entertain the thought of a response to this if it were not for a sense of honor for my fallen brothers. Look up Abu Ghraib scandal and how many army personel have gone missing in Iraq if you would like to see a lesson in undiscipline. Anbar province went to complete hell when the army controlled it and when the Marines took it over it was the gem of the Iraq war. I would rather be accused of being overly aggresive than being a coward. I was there when army units refused to leave the wire until they had Marine escorts. I was there when we had to pick up extra missions because the army refused to do the job. I was shot at more by undisciplined army units than I was insurgents. And at the end of the day it doesnt really matter because even the army dogs are serving this country in ways you will never understand and dont deserve to. You owe your freedom to Marines and every person in the military, and have done this country a disservice by writing this article and also owe all of us vets an apology!
This country owes more to the Army than it does to the Marines.
The Army won the critical battles of the Revolution whic enebled this country to come into existence, Trenton, Princeton, Saratoga. It was the victory at Saratoga which convinced the French to ally with the Americans. It was this alliance which resulted in the victory at Yorktown.
This country definitely does not owe its freedom to the Marines. Over the 235 years of this country’s existence, the US Army, sometimes with the assistance of the Marines, fought the critical battles which have kept the country intact, especially during the early years of this country’s history.
I say again, the Marine Corps was not a significant part of the Military unyil Wrld WarII. In World War II, Soldiers were the troops who foughtGermany, the more dangerous enemy.
I like how you provide no links or proof of whatever you say. Really. Especially when reading some of your other works and it turns out you belief in a Zionist conspiracy surrounding 9/11, and that Mossad planned it.
As a former Marine and someone who graduated from Penn State with a degree in history, I can honestly say this is the most riled up piece of crap journalism I have ever read. None of this is true. Everything written is pure speculation and opinion. This article spits on the graves of many fallen Marines due to its underlying hatred tone. This individual should be ashamed and I would love to see him say these things to a Marines face. The pure uneducated hear say of this thing still dumbfounds me, and ad for the Frenchman bashing the Corps, you need to get a life. You’re French, you sit in your country and bash everyone in the world without lifting a finger to make it a better place.
And as for the Army guys who say the Marines get nothing but good press, its because we fail to let our battle history (the REAL history) be forgotten. The Army has just as much publicity with movies like Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc. So that finger needs to be pointed at yourselves also. That being said, if this article had been written about the Army I would still feel the same way. No branch deserves to get lambasted by lies and opinions from some shithead who never stood a post.
I say again, much of Marine push as their battle history is not history. It is Mrines falsely claiming credit for Army accomplishments.
Why have Marines spit on the graves of fallen soldiers and taken credit for their accomplishments?
“And as for the Army guys who say the Marines get nothing but good press, its because we fail to let our battle history (the REAL history) be forgotten.”
Much of what is claimed as “REAL” Marine history is either fabricated history or Army History. Let’s go over the list again:
Marines, contrary to Marine claims did not fight in the Battle of Trenton.
Marines did not, via the raid on Nassau, provide the munitions needed by the Continental Army.
Marines did not play any critical role in American Naval Victories in the War of 1812. A Marine sniper did kill Captain Henry Lambert, Captain of HMS Java in the Constitution-Java battle. That did not happen until the engagement had decisively turn in favor of Constitution.
Marines did not hold back the British at Bladensburg. Sailors did.
Marines did not capture the Castle of Chapultepec in the Mexican War.
Soldiers played a bigger role in the Defense of the Marne River in World War I than did Marines.
Soldiers, not Marines, defended Bataan in World War II.
Soldiers played a much more crucial role in winning the Pacific War than the Marines did either at the Halls of Montezuma or at the Shores of Tripoli.
More Soldiers than Marines fought and died taking Okinawa.
Marines had a miniscule role in defeating Germany, the more dangerous enemy in World War II.
I hope you didn’t have to pay for that Penn St education, because your a feeling moron.
Of course everything on here isn’t true, but very much of it is, and that’s exactly your problem. You are just awed like a little immature adolescent by the marine corps’ portrayal of themselves, and entirely incapable of accepting the facts that that portrayed may not be as accurate as your drill instructor led you to believe, and that the marine corps just isn’t all that. Until you mature a bit more, broaden your horizons, and perhaps earn an advanced degree at an actual accredited college, you’re just going to remain hopelessly blind to reality.
And hey tell us the truth, parris Island was very much like Penn State’s football program, wasn’t it???
I am Raj Roy, son of an officer in Indian Army.. Being so far away, i truly admired you guys (both Marines and Army as you both have played great roles for your country).. ofcourse first comes my Motherland India, but i really had that respect for you both.., You guys have played different imp roles in different places.. BUT, the respect seems to be a little lost now.. You guys are fighting against each other? Its like two sons of a same mother trying to prove to mother who is better rather than serving her! SHAME ON YOU BOTH!
The Marine monument isn’t at the village of Belleau, it is at the battlefield within sight of the trenches.
What a ridiculous argument! God bless service personnel from all branches who have served and continue to serve our country with distinction. And, may those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom rest in peace. There is glory and honor enough to go around….
As a former U.S. Army soldier with two honorable discharges (one during the Cold War and one added much later during the War on Terror) it occurs to me that today’s military leaders consider the virtues of war fighting capabilites regardless of branch. The front line warriors (of ALL branches) understand and appreciate this. Despite overlapping capabilities, the Marines excel over the Army in many aspects of warfighting while the Army excels over the Marines in still others. Both branches draw from the same pool of American young people.
As an example (and on a personal note), my son is proudly serving our country in the U.S. Army as a combat engineer and will soon be deploying to Afghanistan in support of the U.S. Marines fighting our enemies in Helmand Province. He is proud to serve with his brother Marines and I bet for their part, they’re more than glad to have the heavy lifting and enhanced mobility capabilities that the Army Engineers provide. The warfighting qualities and capabilities of our COMBINED military will surely lead us to victory on the battlefield. Let us hope and pray that our politicians do not let them and us down!
Great read, and I agree w/ all of it.
this isnt an essay on the rivalry between services. this is an unmitigated attack on the corps calling for its dissolution. and its a bunch of horseshit to boot.
I say a lot of what is published in this forum is how the Marines have distorted history
The time has come to rethink our force structure.
Why do Marines have Navy doctors, Navy medics, and Navy chaplains, but they still have a Marine JAG? That doesn’t make sense.
Either all the professional and medical personnel are Marines or none of them should be.
Is there some logical reason for this current arrangement between the Navy and the USMC? By that I mean one that is more pragmatic than traditional.
I would appreciate a well thought out and candid response from any of you Marine veterans out there.
Personally, I think it would be better to simply re-classify them. Instead of considering the Marines as a separate branch on the same par as the Army or Air Force, it should be considered a Corps of the Navy since “Corps” is part of its name and it is a part of the Department of the Navy.
But then again, I also think the Air Force should have stayed a part of the Army as the Air Corps.
But seriously, the whole branch division thing is really administrative since operationally the military is divided along the various “commands” like Northcom, Centcom, etc.
The Canadians merged all of their military forces into one giant administrative whole, but they have three “environments” (army, navy, air force). But collectively they are the “Canadian Forces.” What if we modeled ourselves more like that? It seems more streamlined and unified. They even have their own unified basic training base in Quebec (Yes, that’s the French speaking part of Canada).
The jobs that are pretty much the same across the board for all branches like military police and medics they refer to as “the purple trades.” It is not uncommon to CF medics with both army and navy assignments in their service history.
Of course, in our situation we have too much tradition and history to ever come close to such a thing, although I think we should not be so dismissive of it.
If we did this, Marines could still be Marines. After basic training, you could apply to a hypothetical Marine Corps Indoctrination Phase course (similar in concept to what the Army Rangers already have). Such a course would take a basic Soldier, Sailor, or Airman and turn him into a Marine. And then upon completion and graduation that Marine would have as his first post the MOS of basic rifleman in a MEU company for at least one evolution and one sea deployment followed afterward by MOS training in some other Marine MOS and another MEU evolution and sea deployment in that particular new MOS. As a result, every Marine would have actual rifleman deployment experience and sea service experience as well. How many Marines actually get to go to sea now? If Marines are not “marine” in nature then it gives more fuel to the argument that they are indeed redundant.
So…in conclusion:
1) Be a branch or a corps, but not both;
2) Merge the services together more along the Canadian model for administrative uniformity, or at least create the same “jointness” at the administrative level that you already have at the operational level as seen with the various “commands;”
3) Marines should be “maritime” as implied by their name. They should all be riflemen, not just in training but in actual deployment experience. Therefore, every Marine should serve as a basic rifleman with an at sea expeditionary unit before doing anything else in his Marine career.
End.
…A roadside bomb struck a Humvee traveling in the vicinity, killing one of the marines on board, and sometime later 24 Iraqi civilians were gunned down, many in their homes by US marines. The victims included women, children and grandparents…
–Rep Jack Murtha–Former US marine
US marines placed 90 camera men on Iwo Jima in order capture propaganda photos. Instead of propaganda they should have used the extra manpower to help stave off the bloodbath they created for themselves.
The US army in the Pacific, by contast, were far more effective and had far few per capita casualties due to far superior combat tactics compared with marines. One must note that even Chesty Puller (although touted by the marines as their most respected commander) was nearly sent to prison for the wanton and incompetent slaughter to which he subjected his men.
The Haditha incident occurred on November 19, 2005, and since then there have been differing accounts of exactly what took place.
In November 2005 Murtha announced that a military investigation into the Haditha killings had concluded that U.S. Marines had intentionally killed innocent civilians.[39] Referring to the first report about Haditha[40] in Time magazine, Murtha said:[41]
“It’s much worse than reported in Time magazine. There was no fire fight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. And that’s what the report is going to tell.”
©2005-2007 QuikManeuvers. All Rights Reserved.
I Corp US Marines in Vietnam & Major Battles Vietnam War
Disgraced: Defeat of the Marine Corps in Vietnam
Incompetent Generals of the 3rd Marine Amphibious Force
© 2003
302 pages; 19 chapters and 9 appendixes
The US Marine Corps has always been a respected institution. During the Vietnam War,
its personnel were always willing to fight for America. However, during the Vietnam War
the US Marine Corps came under the control of some especially incompetent generals.
As a result, the US Marine Corps was constantly outmaneuvered by the North
Vietnamese Army, and defeat of the Marine Corps in Vietnam occurred. That failure
of Marine Corps leadership was a major factor in the defeat of US Military Forces in the
Second Indochina War. For the first time, Disgraced: Defeat of the Marine Corps in
Vietnam, as the first part of a two-volume set, fearlessly describes why and how it all
happened. Disgraced: Defeat of the Marine Corps in Vietnam provides impeccable
evidence of the Marine debacle in Nam. From the Battle of Khe Sahn to other major
Vietnam War battles, the US Marines were on the defensive and lost the initiative. The
mistakes of Marine Corps leadership, training, operations and defensive orientation in
Vietnam are laid bare in Disgraced: Defeat of the Marine Corps in Vietnam. The huge
Marine Corps divisions stationed in I Corps were “trench divisions” forever on the
defensive, more interested in pacification than fighting NVA main force units. In many major
Vietnam War battles, failure stalked the US marines during the Vietnam War. It was
not a failure of courage but one of leadership. Disgraced: Defeat of the Marine Corps
in Vietnam catalogues the monumental waste of human life and resources that resulted
from the wrong-headed policies and methods of the Third Marine Amphibious Force
leadership in I Corps, South Vietnam (1965-1971). The US marines in Vietnam War never
controlled I Corps, from 1965-72.
Also see volume two of this set: Dishonored: Marine Corps on the Ropes
Review Table of Contents
“Marine units and their officers have traditionally and mistakenly thought that they were an elite, but they were not
an elite in Vietnam. Neither by superior combat skill, training, doctrine, organization or leadership were the US
marines in Vietnam marked by anything more than a strictly plebian record and very low marks in combat unit
innovation, aggressiveness, and maneuverability. “…Something always went wrong somewhere, somehow. It was
always something vague, unexplainable, tasting of bad fate, and the results were always brought down to their most
basic element–the dead marine. The belief that one marine was better than ten Slopes (Vietnamese) saw marine
squads fed in against known NVA platoons, platoons against companies, and on and on, until whole battalions
found themselves pinned down and cut off…the Corps came to be called by many the finest instrument ever devised
for the killing of young Americans. There were always plenty of stories…entire squads wiped out…companies taking
75% casualties, Marines ambushing marines, artillery and air strikes called in on our own positions…””
Why is it that the US army had 12-15 month deployments in Iraq while the marines only had 7 month deployments. Why is it that marines had 1 year break from ANY combat duties in Iraq but army had to carry their weight? Answer: The US army is a far more potent and important fighting force both today and historically. The US army is indispensable and the marine are not.
From the time of the American Revolution when US army created the very United States with George Washington at its helm to the present this truth stands without dispute. In a relative sense the marines barely exist. The fact is the marines are merely a tertiary force and always have been. Without the existence of their rabid propaganda machine and incessant chest-puffed arrogance the marines would not exist. Reality would show us that the American army, navy and and air force would be much more effective without the operational drag levied on them.
In deed, the marines’ very hymn tells the truth of their own insignificance. That is to say that the “Halls of Motezuma and the shores of Tripoli were never the linchpin of American nationhood. Oddly, the marine propaganda demons have turned an in significant song and corps into a leviathan by shear weight of artful propaganda repeated through the decades. Sadly, the most powerful force in the corps is its propaganda machine and NOT its military force.
In the interest of military efficacy and fiscal responsibility for the US tax payer the US marines should immediately be disbanded.
The following is letter issued by the marines admitting they were handed a stable and successful AO
by the rotating army unit. Recent history tells us what an incompetent mess the marines made of the situation. Back in January of 2004, as the First Marine Division was readying for deployment to Operation Iraqi Freedom II, then-Division Commander MajGen J. N. Mattis delivered the following letter to his Marines:
Letter to All Hands,
We are going back in to the brawl. We will be relieving the magnificent soldiers fighting under the 82nd Airborne Division, whose hard won successes in the Sunni Triangle have opened opportunities for us to exploit.
For the last year, the 82nd Airborne has been operating against the heart of the enemy’s resistance. It’s appropriate that we relieve them: When it’s time to move a piano, Marines don’t pick up the piano bench – we move the piano. So this is the right place for Marines in this fight, where we can carry on the legacy of Chesty Puller in the Banana Wars in the same sort of complex environment that he knew in his early years. Shoulder to shoulder with our comrades in the Army, Coalition Forces and maturing Iraqi Security Forces, we are going to destroy the enemy with precise firepower while diminishing the conditions that create diversarial relationships between us and the Iraqi people.
This is going to be hard, dangerous work. It is going to require patient, persistent presence. Using our individual initiative, courage, moral judgment and battle skills, we will build on the 82nd Airborne’s victories…
I am in the US Army and I believe that the Marine Corps is much more effective than the Army’s. They seem to care more about what they are doing. I wished I would have gone into the Marine infantry over the Army’s. If someone were to take a platoon of Marines and put them up against a platoon of the Army’s the Marines would Destroy us. I should have become a Marine.
B.S.! Read the above and get educated NOT brain washed by moronic marine propaganda. The USMC is a disgrace and danger to NATO.
Yeah right a****** you are NAPOLEON BONAPARTE. YOU ARE VERY OBVIOUSLY a lying USMC propaganda marine whore. STFU, bitch.
“SECTION 8” PETER PUFFER,DISGRACE TO ALL
LARD ASS PIG
Thank you Mac for your honest insight of the false propaganda that is the USMC! Your comment is fully enclosed below:
On April 22, 2008 at 7:10 pm Semper Fi Mac Said:
I am a military historian by profession and there is no doubt that for years the Marine Corps has done the best job of any of the Services in using our public relations folks to magnify our role in the eye of the American Public. The Marine Corps policy is to emphasize image enhancing “heritage” at the expense of actual “history.” With regard to “official” history, if we write anything that is even the slightest bit negative, it is edited before publication. In the words of the self-appointed father of Marine Corps history, BGen Simmons, the best way to ensure the continued future of the Corps is for “Marine Corps history to only be written by Marines.” Check and see who the authors are for most USMC history titles since WWII; 99% of them are written by retired or reserve Marines and support the USMC agenda. I was assigned at Quantico when the Army rolled into Baghdad while the Marines were bogged down, and the generals were screaming in frustration and anger until Colonel was relieved. Our “official” writings on the war don’t get published unless they are first approved by generals like Mattis or Conway. Like it or not, everything in this article is right on the money; if you doubt that, check with the Marine Corps History Division.
gdurant you definitely have extreme bias against the United States Marine Corps. The way you slander the Marine Corps is more than suspect. It’s like we took a sh+t in your cereal one morning and you never forgot. Everything you posted can be argued against; like the posts about crimes committed by US Marines. Every branch of service has those issues. But you know what the interesting part is? The media plays closer attention to when a Marine is involved when compared to the other services. The reason being, the people of the United States expect better from her Marines than anyone else.
I guess it all comes down to doctrine. Understand that and you will begin to understand how a branch operates. Some people are just ignorant. But ignorance is a choice. I do understand that the United States Marine Corps is far from being perfect. But we are definitely not some third-rate chumps. And I still believe our history of kicking a** and taking names is second to none and not to be forsaken.
Something else to bring up. The Marine Corps expects more from its’ Marines. USMC doctrine pushes leadership on its’ lower ranking individuals that would normally be reserved for those of higher ranks in the other services. This doesn’t always work out right away, (some people learn slower than others while others can’t be helped at all and should be left in an office pushing papers) but when it does, the results are amazing and when it doesn’t work out we just replace the individual with somebody more competent even if he does have less rank. Dig up more and you will find that there are other higher standards to be adhered to in the United States Marine Corps. And it just keeps getting tougher. Getting the chance to be one of us is an example. Other branches will accept individuals the Marine Corps will not take. Weight, tattoos(the nature and where they are placed), whether or not you have a high school diploma or GED + a few college courses, previous crimes committed and the nature of those crimes, etc. I had a few buddies back home who wanted to join the Marine Corps but didn’t get accepted because one or more of the issues stated above. But one got accepted into the US Army and another one got accepted into the US Navy.
I’m done rambling now but this ignorant individual with his personal agenda to discredit the United States Marine Corps for a reason not known, had ignited the fury of one pissed off United States Marine. I hope to see you one day on an opposing sides’ force so I can put two shots in your thoracic cavity and one in your head. Thank you and have a outstanding Marine Corps day!
I have alerted Interpol about you you evil little scum bag. Their office is not far from me in Lyon and I know several of the agents. Your terrorist threat is an international crime. This site has provided law enforcement with your IP address. Your evil and criminality will not be tolerated! Have a nice day little USMC scum bag as the US FBI along with local law enforcement will arrest you when you least expect it.
It appears the US marines are lacking in real self-confidence. After doing more than 35 years of research in the US (and many other countries as well). I am forced to conclude the USMC is not only completely incompetent as an organization but in some ways evil (as evidenced above). It is an institution that cares not for America or NATO but only for its shallow aggrandizement. Although I am French I have a son who was born in the US and is currently a US naval officer. He went to the US Naval Academy. He confirms ALL my accounts. He thinks the US army soldiers are the real heroes and always have been so. The USMC is nothing when compared with the army according to him.
Tragically, the marines are most frightened of the truth. They are most nervous about their true feeble, incompetent and criminal history being revealed. These revelations are absolutely terrifying to them. As witnessed by USMC propagandist comments above the USMC can say NOTHING factual in their own defense; they merely default to evil emotional attacks of the lowest order and of NO substance. As a foreigner, I can attest that the US is the best country in the history of the world. It is only the USMC that is the only black mark against your country. Cut the USMC cancer out as soon as you can.
“I have alerted Interpol about you you evil little scum bag. Their office is not far from me in Lyon and I know several of the agents. Your terrorist threat is an international crime. ”
Hilarious.
And to think this same guy goes on to talk about self-confidence.
And apparently he is French ?
I guess that explains oh so much.
Nevermind shitting in his cereal, it sounds more like a Marine fucked this guy’s wife in the ass, then came on her face.
What! I spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. I was all over that country. We only had a small number of Marines. It was almost entirely Army run effort.
Oh, and Iraq, The Army (3rd ID) was in Bagdad before any Marines. That being said, Who cares! But those are the facts. End of discussion.
Also, are you that Marine I kicked the shit out oof? Then later, your NCO. F!@#ing blowharts!
You were mildly entertaining until that second last paragraph.
You’re an actual imbecile. Seriously.
And they made you sergeant?
Marines seriously grow up its just an article its not a big deal lots of it is true. The Marines are the only ones who really seem to care about this rivalry and need to grow up i never see army guys run there mouths like you do making fun of how our men died the Marines are a great branch and people like you make them seem like shit. Marines are great but are slowly falling because people on this very website. Why do you think making fun of dead soldiers makes you a better branch grow up!
So,Max, if I call your momma a fat, stincky, slutbag, it’s OK,,, It’s just a comment?
The Marines are the only ones who care,,,, because we are the only ones se slandered here.
It’s easy to be a tough guy,,,, Max,,, when your just posting on the internet… Grow a pair and talk shit to a Marine’s face… PUSSY.
Eactly PUSSY QUIT TALKING SHIT ON THE INTERNET MARINE FAGGOT! I beat the fuck out of a faggot Marine like you at the bar last night…what are you gonna do bitch!
I have the greatest respect and appreciation for all four branches of our armed forces. My little brother served two tours of duty in Iraq as a Marine. My (very) older brother was in the Navy during Operation Desert Storm. My father, in a time of rampant draft dodging, volunteered and served as an Army medic in Vietnam. My Grandfather was an airman who was shot down by the Nazis and survived for two years in a POW camp. As for myself I’m just a civilian egghead working for the DOD trying to serve my country in my own small way.
I think a good idea to increase joint warfare effectiveness would be a special program open to junior officers of all branches who have made a firm commitment to a military career. They would do a small stint with other services and periodic joint warfare war gaming focusing on specific operational contingencies. For instance, is this war going to rely primarily on Airpower like the Gulf War, or Landpower like Iraq and Afghanistan, or a Seapower naval insertion. Once the general parameters have been laid each service would focus on the particular ways it can contribute to the overall operational objective. Once these young men become flag officers they will have had long and fruitful relationships with each other and can quickly respond to a number of possible contingencies efficently and without diffusion of effort or force. That’s not to say that a service should give up its priorites for the convience of another force. For instance, the Air Force should NEVER put more importance on CAS operations than Air Superiority despite Army wishes to the contrary. Though it may choose to undertake those missions when Air Superiority is in doubt all things are secondary to winning and maintaining control of the air.
War is a team effort and the only thing these petty feuds do is deepen contempt for sister services and ignoring a relevent criticism when it could make things better. The end result is that the operational mission suffers as a consequence.
after reading all of this, im gald i never joined a branch of any of the services. i was, at the time, dumb enough to think that americans fought as americans, but after reading all of this BS, im glad i didnt
We’re glad too John, you sound like a Fag.
hahahahahahahhaahhaahha, that was funny as hell…
the clown that wrote this article has slanted it the U.S. Army way. its okay because Marine’s know the history of the Marine Corps and we don’t claim something that is now ours. lets start off with the Army, they represent the respective units. the Marine Represents his honor and commitment to the Corps. two different types of loyalty. you never see Army Shirts or Jackets, its always 82nd airborne or 101st airborne, Rangers, SF. when they put the uniform on they look like peacocks because of all of the different trinkets they put on the uniforms. im not knocking it, it looks kind of cool. but when a Marine puts his uniform on its all about the eagle globe and anchor. the commitment to the Corps is always within a Marines heart. the Army’s commitment is to his unit. sometimes you even wonder if they are in the Army or if they are in the 101st. or 82nd kind of confusing. now as far as gun fighting goes, those Army guys are tough, they know how to fight, and they should never be ashamed of the history they have amassed. I don’t quite understand the rift here. One turd puts out a slanted article and everyone goes ape shit. the Army doesn’t want their history distorted or taken over by those Marine Brutes, and the Marine’s don’t want the Army talking crap about them slandering the Corps. well I tell ya we have a situation here. If I were in the Army I would want nothing more than a Marine at my 6. if I were a Marine I would want nothing more than a Army Dogg watching my back. so we have come to a crossroads here, a bunch of pissed off Marine’s that feel they have been disrespected by this Army Turd that wrote the article, and Army Doggs that feel the Marine Corps gets way more publicity than they deserve. so what are we to do.
Well I think everyone needs to take their dicks off the table and put them back in their pants. lets see. the Marine Corps has a totally different mission than the Army, the Marines fight battles and the Army fights the War. the thing that kind of gets me. the Army is soooo into their units why do they not compartmentalize the Corps? they want to talk as if the Corps doesn’t have folks that jump out of planes (we do) see we have the Army thinking so much about us being Marine’s they don’t talk about our boys that do daring missions and have been doing those types of missions since the Carson and Edson Raiders way before Army Special Forces exsisted. we have spec ops too until 2006 they just didn’t belong to USSOCOM. some ass clown on here tried to act like Force Recon and MARSOC doesn’t matter well if you knew your history you would know that Marine Force Recon taught the Navy SEALS Tactics and the instructors were MARINES. You are willing to big up SEALS but want to downplay Force Recon like they are not as capable as a Ranger? that my friend is straight bullshit and anyone that knows anything about Force Recon and what they can do thinks that ass clown is talking out of his rectum.
Getting back to this pissing match between our Army Brothers in arms and the Marine Corps. we are both built a little different but that does not mean one is better than the other. I work at the VA and I see Vets on a daily basis. Army Doggs are a bit more laid back and smooth, Marines have a little bit more of an aggressive attitude, probably comes from the foundation at the various MCRD’S both fight like hell and win. so why are we on this thread giving this Turd a audience so he can sit behind his pc and laugh as the Army attacks the Corps and the Corps attacks the army. I think we should give the turd that wrote the article a big middle finger and tell him he can take his article and shove it. how about that.
Semper Fi –
Trash and lies!
ok bro i like how you left out the Marine Corps Legends Vs US Army legends oh wait do they even have legends? i think they have 1 or 2 famous snipers that arent shit compared to Carlos Hatchock the Legendary Marine Corps sniper that had 93 confirmed kills and 300 possible kills one of them being a very important NVA general, another from sniping vietnams best sniper from 600 yards through his sniper scope hitting him in his eye, and lets not forget theabout him killing sumone from 1.4 miles away with a .50 cal machine.Oh yea you also forgot about “Manila” John Basilone who killed atleast ten thousand japs on Guadacanal with a .30 cal Machine and then turned down the offer of becoming an officer and getting a job in the white house because he’d rather be on the front lines fighting with his fellow Marines and ended up getting killed on iwo gima after being the first Marine to run up the beach, knock out an enemy bunker with a grenade and guided a tank through a mud field (sumthin like that cant remember clearly)and earned a Medal Of Honor and a Navy Cross. Also i believe black people were treated best in the Corps because black people in the navy werent allowed to fire weapons, and black people in the army were sent straight to the front lines to get killed during the vietnam war. and the reason why Marines always brag about joining the Corps is because they joined because they love it unlike you army assholes who join for the benefits and money because you guys are too damn stupid to become successful on your own and when you go to war you get scared and hide and watch in horror as your men get killed. in my opinion you cant even call a non spec op Marine a grunt because if you watch there training closely you’ll see them them doing some army ranger and Navy SEALs training. Also i told two army vietnam veterans that i want to join the Marine Corps and they were both surprised because of how tough Marines are and how well they do their jobs so you really need to stop all the bullshit and admit that Marines are better troops the soldiers
OORAH!
I find it funny that half the people talking shit on here…Army VS USMC are more than likely support. You will hardly find a O311 who will talk shit to a 11B and visa versa…the only bitching, comparing, and screaming i see is from POG USMC, and POG US ARMY. Its sad when you think about it chances are the pogs on the forum talking shit haven never sought out and engaged the enemy yet brag about the actions of their grunts….FUCKING POGS
Do you mean “F**KING POGUES” ? So what did you say your MOS was?
OK,,, one fault of the Marines,,, we don’t care about proper spelling,,, as long as we’re kicking ass! Now, shut up and say Thank You,,, for the freedoms you enjoy,,, and WE provide,,, bitch!!! And yes, I’m 0311,,, So,,, bring it,,, bitch.
Very interesting read. Both the navy SEALs and Marines are known for their over-glamour in the media.
READ ALL OF THE ABOVE INCLUDING THE ARMY GUY WHO WISHED HE BECAME A MARINE. MOST OF IT IS A TESTAMENT TO THE USMC
The way the Marine Corps tries to claim credit for the accomplishments of the US Army is a true testament to the Marine Corps.
The guy that wrote this is totally misleading. He sounds prior army too. Carry on.
Your correct, he sounds prior Army and current faggot.
Dude your grammar does suck ass. You’re a Marine so you don’t care right? Shoot. I bet your EDUCATED CO’s don’t care either. Just care that you’re a grunt. Conventional and EXPENDABLE. Sad isn’t it.
“The myth of the Marine Corps as a second army began in WW I”
Your idea isn’t far off, but the historicity and facts are.
The Marine Corps as a decisive fighting force existed prior to WWI, actively engaged in the Caribbean and Pacific.
At the end of the 19th century, Marines were involved in *many* international disputes all over Asia, Caribbean, and South America.
You are right that, until WWI, the Marine Corps was never a massive force relying on conscription like the Army. Rather, it remained as a professional small-unit arm under the Navy which resolved numerous issues decisively. It’s no coincidence that the origin of Navy SEALs coincides with the Marine Corps expanding from a mere 2 brigades to 6 divisions during WWII. Since then, SEALs have taken responsibility for the sort of missions performed by the Corps in the 19th century.
However, the increase in stature of the Marine Corps is not so much due to myth. One only has to study history to see why the Marine Corps has gained it’s earned respect. I can trace this back to the landing at Guantanamo during the Spanish-American War (1900).
There are two factors to this which play out over many different campaigns in widely varying conditions:
1. The consistent performance of Marine forces.
2. The inconsistent performance of Army forces.
This is to say, that the current situation has as much to do with the Army either failing to accomplish mission objectives or being absurdly inefficient at doing so (see Grenada) as it does with the Marine Corps’ dogged determination to accomplish objectives at almost any cost.
This is probably best exemplified by the Korean War. MacArthur, his staff, and his favored commanders ignored what everyone else knew was Chinese involvement late in October. Even when they finally admitted the enemy they were fighting were Chinese forces, he greatly underestimated their strength.
This resulted in the decimation of South Korea’s II Corps, protecting the Army’s right flank. They received little aid from the Army either. Their flank exposed, the US Army hastily withdrew — some would say in a way showing lack of discipline and chaos.
Meanwhile, the Marine Corps maintained and fought it’s way out of Chosin Reservoir — evacuating the wounded and dead, and not leaving equipment behind. Things the Army largely failed to do. And did so while entirely surrounded, heavily outnumbered, and all on it’s own. The US Army forces on the other side of Korea were of similar strength to their opposition, not including the Korean Divisions and Turkish Brigade they sacrificed. Meanwhile, 1st MarDiv was outnumbered more than 2 to 1.
Don’t mistake me, however, for bashing the Army here. This debacle was not the soldier on the ground’s fault. It was the fault of Commanders like MacArthur who put politics ahead of performing his duties as a General and to his men. MacArthur promised the American public that our forces would have all of Korea subdued by Christmas. As a result, he pushed unrealistic expectations onto his subordinate commanders which left their units strung out with poorly guarded supply lines, and the most inexperienced units (the Korean divisions) guarding their Eastern flank.
The CO of 1st MarDiv, General Oliver P Smith, however took a more cautious approach and ensured to advance at a pace that would not compromise his Marines tactically. Marines in Chosin Reservoir verified on their first day that they were fighting Chinese forces and did not underestimate the enemy. He was heavily criticized by the CO of X-Corps (which 1MEF was attached to), Army General Almond, but ultimately Almond could not touch a Marine General (Marine Corps leadership agreed with Smith’s assessment and believed Almond was overly aggressive.) This lead to the creation of Regimental Combat Team 31 (RCT31), more famously known as Task Force Faith, to advance up the East side of the Chosin Reservoir. In this way, MacArthur and his politician-generals hoped to give the Marine Corps less responsibility and let them focus on a smaller area to speed things up. On 27Nov RCT31 was over-ran and divided into 3 isolated units. Lt Col Faith, however, was ordered by Almond to continue advancing. Of about 2500 American soldiers in RCT31, 1000 died before reaching Marines desperately holding Hagaru-ri and only 300 were able to assist 1st MarDiv on fighting their way to safety.
All because the Army Leadership put politics ahead of their actual job.
There is little to no difference between the men and women who serve in the Army vs. the Marine Corps. The difference lies primarily in leadership and their priorities. On a second level in methodology, though this tends to reflect the point on priorities.
I would also like to challenge your premise that “the United States has two armies”.
This is a gross misunderstanding of what the Marine Corps does; and how the Marine Corps does it.
The Marine Corps is designed to operate as independently as possible in “small”-unit environments (1 Division or less). The Army is designed to operate in Corps of multiple Divisions. While the Marine Corps today is organized into 3 mega units, each including 1 Aircraft Wing and 1 Infantry Division, it is not designed specifically to fight as an entire MEF. Those MEFs are predominantly holding units from which smaller contingents are taken out of, forming MEBs (Regiment + Group) or MEUs (Battalion + Squadron) that unify Infantry, Fire Support, Air support, Air logistics, and Logistics under 1 unified command with a singular Colonel at the top.
When the Army wants to call for fixed-wing air support, they need to go through a General and interface with the Air Force. The Marine Corps has a different philosophy, and believes Air and Ground forces should be in bed together and interface at a much lower and organic level.
This isn’t to say that the Army way is wrong. Both forces have their strengths and weaknesses. For a high-intensity small-unit conflict, the Marine Corps is preferred. Even for an immediate response to natural disasters, the Marine Corps is better organized to handle those.
But for long conflicts that require staying power and beef, the Army is far better equipped and suited to the task. And while the Marine Corps may be better at immediate response in natural disasters, long-term aid is better suited to the Army.
The Marine Corps has not changed so much since before WWI like you wish to say either. It has become larger, but again, this goes back to the 2 points I made above regarding the consistency of the Marine Corps versus the consistency of the Army.
The Marine Corps has always been a professional small-tactics high-intensity lightweight maneuver warfare organization. And I stress professional. Through most of it’s history the Army has relied heavily on conscription and enticing citizens who are not necessarily inclined to warfare. People who join the Marine Corps, on the other hand, generally do so with the intent of being in a conflict. Various benefits are generally seen as perks of the job, not reasons to join.
Regarding the31st RCT, their stand on the East side of Chosin was a factor in 1st mardiv being able to break out. You have confirmed that more soldiers than maeines died at Chosin. OP Smith’s initial estimate was 400 marine kia.
Again, OP Smith and the leave no one behind marines sacrificed the soldiers to save the marines. They then accused those soldiers of cowardice.
Mullah “Mike”, you and your “French” friend Durant should try reading Army historian BGen. S.L.A. Marshall’s book, “The River and the Gauntlet: Defeat of the Eigth Army by the Chinese Communist Forces November, 1950 in the Battle of the Chongchon River, Korea”. I get the impression two of you have a vested interest in the dissolution of the Corps. Are you afraid the Marines will finish the job of exterminating your jihadist friends (with a the help of our brothers in arms in the other branches of the US military and our true allies)?
To June 8, 2011 at 12:41 am reade who said:
“Mullah “Mike”, you and your “French” friend Durant should try reading Army historian BGen. S.L.A. Marshall’s book, “The River and the Gauntlet: Defeat of the Eigth Army by the Chinese Communist Forces November, 1950 in the Battle of the Chongchon River, Korea”. ”
Read the more current history, “East o Chosin” by Roy E. Appleman.
Read what is said about the 31st RCT in ”
The Gentle Warrior: General Oliver Prince Smith, USMC” by Clifton La Bree and Martin J. Sexton
Finally read the casualty figures for the Chosin breakout. More soldiers than Marines died in the fighting that enabled 1st Marine Division to break out.
Because a more recent, revisionist version makes for a less accurate account. That’s the best reason not to.
Primary research should point one back to the earliest work on the subject.
For all who don’t believe this article, check out this video and you marines are saying we Soldiers are complaining? I don’t think so and this meathead just proves it
I have spoken to several truck drivers who were in Iraq as independent contractors. They were never in the military and they said the difference in the Army/Marines were great. I recently saw a documentary film on the role of female Army soldiers in Iraq. There role as searching female Iraqis. When there army units finished there tour and the Marines took over they stayed on. They said the marines were much more “Attack” oriented. This was from Army soldiers. So I respect and admire anyone fighting for the USA. I think your article is simple jealousy. There must be a reason you are not fond of Marines. Not sure why. Marines have proven themselves with many witnessess many times.
It was the Marines being ore attack oriented that resulted in the bloody fiasco of Peleliu.
This is the writer who wrote this article. Research his facts from various sources it will prove to be false. His journey to find himself is a youthful one that many of us take. As you get older and wiser you realize the ego-mania of the journey. It doesn’t make it wasteful just gives all our insights and discoveries a little perspevtive. i am sure his words are biased and he has this point of view for a reason. Maybe he got beat up in the navy by Marines. I love the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Army and have friends that served in both the Marines and the Army and they all say the same thing. “The Army has great schools but the Marines are tougher and more of a brotherhood”. That is what they said. Oh and here is one piece of fact of Iwo Jima: Of the 22,785 Japanese soldiers entrenched on the island, 21,570 died either from fighting or by ritual suicide. Only 34 were captured during the battle. The Allies suffered 6,821 deaths out of 26,038 total casualties. The number of CASUALTIES on the American side was greater then the number DEATHS on the Japannese side.
As early as April 1945 retired Chief of Naval Operations, William V. Pratt, asked in Newsweek magazine about the expenditure of manpower to acquire a small, God-forsaken island, useless to the Army as a staging base and useless to the Navy as a fleet base … [one] wonders if the same sort of airbase could not have been reached by acquiring other strategic localities at lower cost.
Pratt did not know, or else could not disclose, the need to take Iwo Jima for delivery of the atomic bomb. Iwo Jima was designated a crucial emergency landing point for the B-29s carrying the atomic bombs destined for Japan in late 1944, at least four months after the European D-Day (6 June 1944); The 509th Composite Group practiced mock emergency landings on Iwo Jima at its Utah base opened in December 1944.[25] B-29s were not entirely reliable, and engine failure was common. Due to the scarcity of materials and engineering complexity, replacement of the bombs could take many months or even years. Thus planners feared that the loss of the bombs into the Pacific would have delayed the end of the war and potentially forced a full scale invasion of the Japanese mainland. Due to the extreme secrecy surrounding the Manhattan Project, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) could not disclose or even hint at the critical need to take Iwo Jima.[26]
THIS IS THE WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE: A. Scott Piraino
I am a writer living in bucolic Spokane, Washington.
It wasn’t always this way, back in the day I was a restless wanderer. I left home and traveled to straight to Europe, came back and hitchhiked across America. I joined a carnival, then the Navy.
After the Navy it was time for me to become an upstanding, educated citizen. I went to college, three of them to be exact, and I still don’t have a degree. Maybe I don’t have a Phd from and ivy tower university, but I do have street cred.
I write because I am pissed off. I am incensed by the people who prevent us from becoming what we could be. Our country, and our world are in real trouble.
We who know the truth, and seek the truth, can set each other free
No,,, The Marines set (keep) you people free. Shut the fuck up,,, and be greatful.
The Army has done much more to get us free in the first place and then to keep us free.
Is any Marine aware that the Continental Marines were disbanded in 1783. The US Marines were organized in 1798. There is a 15 year period in this country’s history in which no Marine Corps existed to keep any American free.
CASUALTIES AND DEATHS ARE VERY DIFFERENT
“If I were King, I’d close Army entry training and send all future Infantry grunts to the Marines. The Corps still produces trained and disciplined soldiers who still know how to fight and make it on a killing field.” –Col David Hackworth, USA Army (Ret
This article is very accurate.
There is alot more shit that is not mentioned on here as well.
The usmc is nothing but propaganda.
Bob,
I just got finished propogandizing your wife’s ass.
Thanks, it was great.
Yes, USMC is all propaganda. They’ve never proved themse.. oh wait.
there are things about the Corp the Army can learn from, but the problem i have is there culture of brainwashing, Narcissism, bad mouthing the Army to make themselves feel better and not dealing with facts and history is troublesome, in other word most Marine are so brainwash they lived in a fantasy world. A lot Marine and civilian thinks the Marine did most of the fighting and dying in the Current wars, which is not true, just Google death rate among the difference branches. Whether be a Marine or not, nobody like a big mouth, constantly talking about themselves geeze. Please take that first to fight bs out, i don’t remember when the Marine were first to fight, ever. Another example of PR by Marine is the Pacific War, most people believed Marine are only one that fought the Jap, again bs(there was about 20 Army Div. to 6 Marine Div in the Pacific).Again google battle of Okinawa, there were 4 Army division to 2 Marine Div. but yet hardly anyone mention the Army in that battles wonder why. The Army is definitely taken for granted.
Reality, your a fucking idiot. The US Marines are the First to Fight, because they are the only US military force the US President can send to any conflict without an act of Congress.
And, just because there were more Army doggies in Oki, doesn’t mean shit (if even true). If there were more girls at a bar when there was a fight, it does not mean the girls won the fight for the men who fought it.
The Marines do the fighting and destroy the enemies. They send in the Army, afterwards, to police and rebuild.
i believe you are idiot sir, your typical brainwash, delusional Marine. Give me historical facts and evidences where the fuck you were first to fight and not Marine mumbo jumbo?
In most of America’s wars, the Marine Corps has not been the first armed force to engage the enemy.
It was not the first armed force to fight in defense of this country.
You Lowlife little dick Loud mouth, big anus bitch!
I’m bored with the whole concept of this article as long as everyone is fighting and contributing that is all that matters in my mind. No matter how you look at it’s a little irrisponsible of us as the general public to expect 100% perfection or political correctness out of any given branch or service when there is honestly a metric shit ton of red tape keeping everyone in check all the time designed to immediately recognize and potentially exploit any given descision made. While people look into cutting costs and saving the nation a little money look elsewhere the military as a general whole already has their nuts in a vice, don’t spend time trying to get someone to cut these organizations of tradition and honor with a rusty bayonette too.
It is funny how the internet has made tough guys out of everyone. I would love for any of you pussies to talk this kind of shit about the Marine Corps to the face of a Marine. You’d get your doggy ass kicked.
By the way, I grew up wanting to be an Army Ranger, then I learned a simple fact. If I was prior Army (Navy or Air Force) and wanted to join the Marines, I would have to go through Marine Boot Camp; however, once I completed Marine Boot Camp, if I wanted to join the Army (Navy or Air Force), I would bypass Boot Camp and go straight to work.
Obviously the brass knows who is the finest fighting force.
In the Army, shock troops are a small minority supported by a vast group of artisans, laborers, clerks and organizers. In the Marines there are practically nothing but shock troops.
—Combat correspondent John Lardner, 6 March 1945 report on Iwo Jima in New Yorker magazine, 17 March 1945
Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets may as well be paper-weights.
Navy Times; November 1994
Why in hell can’t the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can’t they be like Marines.
Gen. John J. “Black Jack” Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918
I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!
General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur; Korea, 21 September 1950
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff
during the assault on Grenada, 1983
Lying offshore, ready to act, the presence of ships and Marines sometimes means much more than just having air power or ship’s fire, when it comes to deterring a crisis. And the ships and Marines may not have to do anything but lie offshore. It is hard to lie offshore with a C-141 or C-130 full of airborne troops.
Gen. Colin Powell, U. S. Army
Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff
During Operation Desert Storm
You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth- and the amusing thing about it is that they are.
Father Kevin Keaney
1st Marine Division Chaplain
Korean War
The Marine Corps has just been called by the New York Times, ‘The elite of this country.’ I think it is the elite of the world.
Admiral William Halsey, U.S. Navy
I can’t say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like ‘brilliant,’ it would really be an under description of the absolutely superb job that they did in breaching the so-called ‘impenetrable barrier.’ It was a classic- absolutely classic- military breaching of a very very tough minefield, barbed wire, fire trenches-type barrier.
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U. S. Army
Commander, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991
I am convinced that there is no smarter, handier, or more adaptable body of troops in the world.
Prime Minister of Britain, Sir Winston Churchhill on US Marines.
The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.
Gen. John “Black Jack” Pershing, U.S. Army
Commander of American Forces in World War I
The American Marines have it [pride], and benefit from it. They are tough, cocky, sure of themselves and their buddies. They can fight and they know it.
General Mark Clark, U.S. Army
“The deadliest weapon in the world is a MARINE and his rifle!”
GEN. PERSHING, US.ARMY
“The more MARINES I have around the better I like it!”
GEN. MARK CLARK, U.S. ARMY
“I want you boys to hurry up and whip these Germans so we can get out to the Pacific to kick the s**t out of the purple-pissing Japanese, before the Godda**ed MARINES get all the credit!”
Lt General George Patton, US Army 1945
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
GEORGE ORWELL, on US Marines
“I can never again see a UNITED STATES MARINE without experiencing a feeling of reverence.”
GEN. JOHNSON, U.S. ARMY
“Teufelhunde! (Devil Dogs)”
GERMAN SOLDIERS, WW1 at BELLEAU WOOD
“We have two companies of MARINES running all over this island and thousands of ARMY troops doing nothing!”
GEN. JOHN VESSEY, CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS
“Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the AMERICAN MARINES.”
CAPTURED NORTH KOREAN MAJOR
There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26 January 1952
My only answer as to why the Marines get the toughest jobs is because the average Leatherneck is a much better fighter. He has far more guts, courage, and better officers… These boys out here have a pride in the Marine Corps and will fight to the end no matter what the cost.
2nd Lt. Richard C. Kennard, Peleliu, World War II
This was the first time that the Marines of the two nations had fought side by side since the defense of the Peking Legations in 1900. Let it be said that the admiration of all ranks of 41 Commando for their brothers in arms was and is unbounded. They fought like tigers and their morale and esprit de corps is second to none.
Lt Col. D.B. Drysdale, Commanding 41 Commando, Chosen Reservoir, on the 1st Marine Division Division
There was always talk of Espirit de Corps, of being gung ho, and that must have been a part of it. Better, tougher training, more marksmanship on the firing range, the instant obedience to orders seared into men in boot camp.
James Brady, press secretary to President Reagan
A Ship without Marines is like a garment without buttons.
Adm. David Dixon Porter, USN in a letter to Colonel Commandant John Harris, USMC, 1863
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share.
Ned Dolan
The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years.
James Forrestal, Secretary of the Navy; 23 February 1945
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don’t have that problem.
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They’re aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They’ve got really short hair and they always go for the throat.
RAdm. “Jay” R. Stark, USN; 10 November 1995
They told (us) to open up the Embassy, or “we’ll blow you away.” And then they looked up and saw the Marines on the roof with these really big guns, and they said in Somali, “Igaralli ahow,” which means “Excuse me, I didn’t mean it, my mistake”.
Karen Aquilar, in the U.S. Embassy; Mogadishu, Somalia, 1991
By their victory, the 3rd, 4th and 5th Marine Divisions and other units of the Fifth Amphibious Corps have made an accounting to their country which only history will be able to value fully. Among the Americans who served on Iwo Island, uncommon valor was a common virtue.
Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, U.S. Navy
Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army.
Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War; shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered to not wear their khaki leggings.
“Marines are about the most peculiar breed of human beings I have ever witnessed. They treat their service as if it was some kind of cult, plastering their emblem on almost everything they own, making themselves up to look like insane fanatics with haircuts to ungentlemanly lengths, worshipping their Commandant almost as if he was a god, and making weird animal noises like a band of savages. They’ll fight like rabid dogs at the drop of a hat just for the sake of a little action, and are the cockiest SOB’s I have ever known. Most have the foulest mouths and drink well beyond man’s normal limits, but their high spirits and sense of brotherhood set them apart and , generally speaking, of the United States Marines I’ve come in contact with, are the most professional soldiers and the finest men I have had the pleasure to meet.”
~ An Anonymous Canadian Citizen
“The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a MARINE CORPS for the next 500 years.”
JAMES FORRESTAL, SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
“The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of MARINES. LORD, how they could fight!”
MAJ. GEN. FRANK LOWE, U.S. ARMY
WE STOLE THE EAGLE FROM THE AIR FORCE, THE ANCHOR FROM THE NAVY AND THE ROPE FROM THE ARMY.
ON THE SEVENTH DAY WHILE GOD RESTED, WE OVERRAN HIS PERIMETER, STOLE THE GLOBE AND WE’VE BEEN RUNNING THE WHOLE SHOW EVER SINCE. WE LIVE LIKE SOLDIERS, TALK LIKE SAILORS, AND SLAP THE HELL OUT OF BOTH OF THEM.
WARRIORS BY DAY, LOVERS BY NIGHT, PROFESSIONALS BY CHOICE, AND MARINES BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
don’t have a heart attack, this is a free country you are allow to have an opinion, it only hurt when there truth in it. i lived in San Diego i seen Marine kick-ass and have thier ass kick, being a Marine does not make you a great street fighter, otherwise Marine would dominate MMA. yes i have said it Marine that they are not the first to fight.Couples of my friends are Marine but unlike you (from your respone) they real down to earth.
You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth- and the amusing thing about it is that they are.
Father Kevin Keaney
1st Marine Division Chaplain
Korean War
However, Marines sure exaggerate about what they have accomplished.
“I can’t say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like ‘brilliant,’ it would really be an under description of the absolutely superb job that they did in breaching the so-called ‘impenetrable barrier.’ It was a classic- absolutely classic- military breaching of a very very tough minefield, barbed wire, fire trenches-type barrier.”
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U. S. Army
Commander, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991
I was in theater watching General Schwarzkopf’s press conference. After praising the Marines, he had equal praise for VII Corps.
VII Corps made the main effort in the ground war. The Marines made a secondary effort. Their success in part was due to their armored support, which was the Army’s Tiger Brigade, an armored brigade of the 2nd Armored Division.
The story of the ground war is that VII Corps fought the Republican Guard. The Marines fought Iraq’s second line troops.
The reason JARHEAD the Army don’t send you to Basic/Boot again? They don’t see the point in teaching the same thing twice. It’s called “management”. They have no doubt, you can dig a Foxhole. No use showing you (charging the taxpayer) for you to be shown how you’d do it, again. -SSG. US. Army Ret.
Does it really matter who has the best branch of the military? Were all americans here and all of the armed forces are fighting for our country. Soldiers in the Marines, Army, Air Force, and Navy all have died fighting for our country. Show some respect.
“The United states has two armies.”
— The USMC is not a “land army”. It is an amphibious force being USED as a land army because that is what is required of it. When was the last time the 82nd did a combat jump? Does that mean they arent paratroopers?
“There were no Marines in the Continental Army that won the Revolutionary War.”
–Flat out wrong. They just werent employed as they are today. In fact Marines participated in landings in England and the Caribbean as part of ships companies.
“The fact is, for most of their history the United States Marine Corps was little more than a security force for the Navy.”
– Exactly, as in the tradition of the Royal Marines, who were the exact same thing and the model of the USMC, and who have evolved into something else. Is it your position that because they were one thing over a hundred years ago, they should never evolve? For most of its history the ‘cavalry’ rode horses, why arent they now? Additionally, even though they were primarily used for ships company, that didnt prevent their limited use in the Mexican American War, the indian wars, and the Spainish American War.
“The myth of the Marine Corps as a second army began in WW I. When the United states entered the war in 1917, over two million U.S. Army soldiers were deployed to France along with one brigade of marines, about ten thousand strong. Despite being a tiny fraction of the American forces fighting in WW I, the Marines managed to make a name for themselves at the U.S. Army’s expense.”
-The reputation wasnt earned at the “Armys expense”, i rather believe it was made at the expense of the Germans.
“Floyd Gibbons made no secret of his “friendship and admiration for the U.S. Marines”.”
-And other reporters made the same relationships with US Army units, but you have obviously done poor research in not noticing them.
“Today all Marines in basic training are taught that German soldiers in WW I referred to them as “Devil Dogs”. H.L. Mencken, an American writing in 1921, clearly states that; “The Germans, during the war, had no opprobrious nicknames for their foes…Teufelhunde (devil-dogs), for the American marines, was invented by an American correspondent; the Germans never used it.”
— Clearly you are grasping. This is an admitted fact of the Marine Corps, but it does not take away from the fact that multiple German assessments of the day rated the Marine Brigade as shock troops. You also neglected to point out all the other fallacies we teach in boot camp that no one cares about, like our blood stripe and quatrafoil. We arent real fascinated by our uniform decorations or our ‘nicknames’. The purpose, in the end, is for Marines to realize they have a history to live up to.
“Most Americans believe that the Marine Corps won the war in the Pacific, while the US Army fought in Europe. In fact our Pacific operations were hampered by a conflict between the Army and the Navy, that split the theatre in two.”
–Poor research and a dis service to the Army more than anyone. It was actually in three parts, you neglect the completely Army led campaign through south east asia.
“The Navy adamantly refused to place their fleet, (and their Marines), under the command of the Army. After five weeks of bureaucratic wrangling, General MacArthur was given command of the Southwest Pacific theatre, while Admiral Nimitz had jurisdiction over the remainder of the Pacific ocean. The result, in Macarthur’s own words, was a “divided effort, the… duplication of force (and) undue extension of the war with added casualties and cost”.”
–Poorly researched, both Army and Marine Divisions, ships and aircraft fought in both regions. Macarthur was a known and recognized by all ego-maniac. Of course he wanted total control. You also neglect to point out that MacA made a good many mistakes in the beginning of the Pacific War to merit the questioning of his ability.
“The US Army fought the main force of the Japanese Imperial Army in New Guinea and the Philippines. The Navy and Marines carried out an “island hopping” strategy that involved amphibious assaults on islands such as Guadalcanal and Saipan. General Macarthur complained bitterly to the President that “these frontal attacks by the Navy, as at Tarawa, are tragic and unnecessary massacres of American lives“.”
— This line of argument is absurd and barely worth discussing, but because you brought it up, it will be addressed. To equate the New Guinea campaign with the island hopping operations is complete blindness to the difference in those operations. It also ignores the necessity of one supporting the other. Had there not been a Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, etc there would not have been a Phillipines. Likewise, MacA HIMSELF used the same ‘island hopping’ once he was free of New Guinea. He was just mad his route from the south, which he was obsessed with returning to the Phillipines, was not the primary route. Furthermore, MacA was no stranger to sending Marines and soldiers into useless slaughter, it was his idiocy that led to the pointless battle for Peleliu. You also NEGLECTED to mention that the ANZAC’s were fighting in New Guinea as well and doing so very well and responsible for a good deal of that success.
“The famous image of Marines raising the US flag on Mount Suribachi is actually a photograph of the second, staged flag-raising ceremony. The Marines raised the flag a second time to replace the original, smaller flag, and to provide the press corps with a better photo opportunity. That photograph has become one of the most enduring images of WW II, and served as the model for the Marine Corps Memorial statue.”
-So? Whats your point? Does that somehow diminish or change what happened at Iwo?
“In fact the Marine Corps was nearly legislated out of existence two years later. After the bureaucratic infighting that characterized inter-service relations during WW II, there was a strong desire among military professionals to unify the military commands. President Truman agreed, and in 1946 his administration proposed a bill to unify the separate service bureaucracies.
…
The Navy and Marine Corps were determined to scuttle this legislation. Marine generals created a secret office code named the Chowder Society to lobby behind the scenes, (in opposition to their President and Commander in Chief), and thwart the unification bill before Congress. The Commandant of the Marine Corps even made an impassioned speech before Congress to plead for his separate service.
It worked. Congress rejected the Truman administration’s unification bill, and instead passed the National Security Act of 1947. This Act guaranteed separate services, with their own independent budgets, and was a victory for the Navy and Marine Corps.”
–Again, so.. It was, in the end, for the betterment of the country by preserving naval aviation. This only matters if you think the Carrier Battle Group has no utility or that amphibious force projection doesnt either.
“In addition, the Marines succeeded in having their separate force structure written into the language of the legislation. It is very unusual for Congress to dictate the actual composition of a military service. Yet the National Security Act mandates that the Marines Corps must maintain “not less than three combat divisions and three aircraft wings and such land combat, aviation, and other services as necessary to support them“.
President Truman was furious, and military professionals were appalled. General Eisenhower characterized the Marines as “being so unsure of their value to their country that they insisted on writing into the law a complete set of rules and specifications for their future operations and duties. Such freezing of detail…is silly, even vicious.”
–And again. So. Like Truman is some sort of all knowing all seeing person whose opinions are without criticism? You neglect to point out that he was the same president who fired MacA who you also seem to quote without question.
“The war between the Army and Marines would get more vicious in Korea. On November 27th, 1950 a division of Marines 25,000 strong, was ordered to proceed along the west side of the Chosin reservoir, while a much smaller task force of 2500 Army troops went up the eastern side. Waiting for them were 120,000 troops of the Chinese Communist 9th Army Group.
The Army soldiers fought a running battle for three days against a Chinese force eight times their size, in temperatures as low as minus 35 degrees. Despite the death of two commanding officers, the task force lumbered south with over 600 dead and wounded soldiers loaded into trucks, fought through repeated ambushes, and was even mistakenly bombed by US Marine aircraft. Finally, just four miles from safety, the convoy was cut off by the Chinese and annihilated.
385 men made it to the safety of American lines by crossing the frozen Chosin Reservoir.
The First Marine Division, with the help of allied air power, managed to fight their way out of the Chinese encirclement. Marines claimed that the Army had disgraced itself, and passed on stories of US soldiers throwing down their weapons and feigning injuries. A Marine Chaplain even made statements to the press and wrote an article accusing army soldiers of cowardice.
There were so few officers and men left from the Army task force that the Marine’s claims were accepted as fact. But newly released Chinese documents prove otherwise. The Army task force fought bravely against overwhelming odds before being destroyed, and their stubborn defense bought time for the Marines to escape the encirclement.
Nevertheless, Marines to this day hold up the fight at the Chosin reservoir as proof of their superiority over the Army.”
-You neglect MANY points. First, the Army’s reputation suffered not from Chosin but from the events at the start of the war and their being broken by the North Koreans (to their credit, it was NOT their fault – I dont choose to denigrate them like you seem to enjoy doing to Marines). The Marine Corps reputation was built again before Choisin by its actions in the Pusan Perimeter where the 1st Marine were used as a ‘fire brigade’ very successfully. And directly afterward, the landings a Inchon, again led by your MacA, brought more acclaim.
Lastly, the Marine Corps has repeatedly acknowledged the valor of the 7th Infantry and changed its attitude toward them. To the Marines and Soldiers defense, NO ONE knew what happened to the 7th Infantry at the time except that they broke. The survivors you report on and much of the story wasnt revealed until well AFTER the war. Gen Smith and others only saw the result on their Marines and reacted as anyone might.
“In Vietnam, a Marine regiment at Khe Sanh refused to come to the aid of a Special Forces outpost only four miles from their perimeter. On Febuary 7th, 1968, the camp at Lang Vei was overran by heavily armed North Vietnamese troops during an all-night battle. The Marines had earlier agreed to reinforce the camp in the event of an attack, but two requests for assistance were denied.
General Westmoreland himself had to order the Marines to provide helicopters for Special forces personnel, so they could be airlifted into the besieged outpost. By this time the post had been overrun, at a cost of 208 soldiers killed and another 80 wounded.”
— You neglect to mention that Khe Sahn was already heavily besieged by this time and unable to lend any help. Khe Sahn was not ONE base but several small bases surrounded a big base, each needed defending. The SOCFOR unit was as well apprised as anyone of the precarious situation they were in and chose to stay knowing the possible consequences.
“Ironically, two months later this same Marine regiment would be besieged at Khe Sanh, and they would be relieved by Army troops of the First Cavalry Division.”
–Neglect to state that the battle was already won by this time. The Cavalry arrival did nothing to change the situation at Khe Sahn at the time.
“During Operation Desert Storm 90,000 Marines attacked Iraqi forces alongside over 500,000 US Army and coalition troops. Yet the Marines garnered 75 percent of the newsprint and TV coverage. This was not an accident.”
–This was because the USMC was sent ‘up the middle’ and was repeatedly praised by Gen Schwarzkopf. As such, the Marines were more visible intentionally so as to conceal the ‘left hook’ of the Army. Likewise the Marines on ship were highly publicized for the same purpose.
“The US Army performed a “Hail Mary” operation that trapped Iraq’s Republican Guard divisions and fought numerous running battles in the Iraqi desert. But no one saw them. Instead the press focused on Lt. Gen. Walter Boomer parading triumphantly through the streets of Kuwait City.”
–So why dont you praise the Army units instead of denigrating the Marine Corps units that did the same thing, which included destroying over 300 enemy tanks as well?
“When George Bush the Second launched his misguided invasion of Iraq, the Marines were once again included, and this time the goal was Baghdad. The invasion, which began on March 20th, 2003, called for a two pronged assault on Baghdad. The Army’s 5th Corps would advance from the desert west of the Euphrates river, while the First Marine division was ordered to cross the Euphrates and make a parallel advance through central Iraq.
….
Colonel Joe Dowdy was relieved of his command the following day. The Marine Corps will never admit it, but he was fired because he failed to carry out the Corps most important mission in Iraq: Colonel Dowdy failed to upstage the US Army by being the first to reach Baghdad.”
–Your history here is abysmial. You neglect to mention that the Marine Corps was ahead of schedule on almost every front, that the Army got bogged down in the Karbala gap, that the Marine Corps was never even supposed to go into Baghdad (I was part of OIF I and saw the plan, btw), and that on capturing Baghdad, the Army got stuck and the USMC had to send its forces north to take Tikrit, which was NEVER part of the plan. You also denigrate the actions of 3rd Infantry which fought beside the Marines for most of that drive. You failed to mention that the REASON the Marines faced stiff resistance in Nasiriya was an Army convoy that got lost and emboldened the Iraqis. You failed to mention that the Marines destroyed or rendered ineffective almost six divisions on their drive north including Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard units. Your ‘abbreviated’ at best reasoning for Col Dowdy’s relief leaves out tons of history before his actions around Al Kut and the fact that his ‘by pass’ of Al Kut enabled an Iraqi division to escape into the city.
“The Marines would return to Iraq one year later, when the First Marine Expeditionary Force assumed responsibility for Al Anbar province, which includes the city of Fallujah.
…
When their patrols came under heavy fire the lightly armed Marines had only two choices; Fight it out with the insurgents on foot, or call in artillery and air strikes. The inevitable result was scores of Marines killed or wounded, and hundreds of civilian casualties. The world was appalled by the carnage in Fallujah, and the Marines were called off.”
–The world was ‘appalled’ by the trumped up carnage put on their tv’s by Al J and Al A, which you seem to swallow up without hesitation. Should I quote some Al J and Al A stories about the US Army? Do we need to bring up their prison management? Do we need to bring up Jesse Spielman? Do we need to bring up the COUNTLESS propaganda pieces about the Army in Baghdad by Al J and Al A?
Your ‘source’ for information is as biased as you.
“While Marines were fighting in Fallujah, the US Army was heavily engaged against militiamen loyal to Muqtata al-Sadr in cities throughout Iraq. But in contrast to the Marine’s failure to recapture Fallujah,”
–Its funny how you in one paragraph say the Marines were told to stop taking Fallujah after ‘slaughtering civilians’, and next call it their failure… Which is it?
“the US Army’s heavy armored vehicles could enter hostile cities with impunity. They brought al-Sadr to heel after two months of fighting, while suffering relatively few casualties.”
–Except your memory seems to slip when it comes to the fact the Army took GREAT criticism for losing M1A1’s to RPG’s and having to re-engineer some of their armor to protect them from a cheap russian grenade launcher and the publicity that got the Army.
“….
In Fallujah and Najaf, inexperienced Marine units picked fights with insurgents, and in both cases ended up handing the enemy a strategic victory. Their failure to recapture Fallujah made the city a rallying cry for Islamic militarism worldwide, (that is until the second US assault rendered Fallujah uninhabitable). The Marine’s botched attempt to capture Muqtata al-Sadr has only strengthened his hand.”
–The Marines were held back in Fallujah I, and wound up taking Fallujah when they were allowed to. Its reprehensible to blame political decisions on Marines or soldiers and even more so to blame them for the consequences. Your ‘selective’ memory of Najaf ignores the political situation throughout Iraq at the time and the facts on the ground (that Sadr’s Army was ACTIVE and intimidating the populace and engaging Marines).
“Today there are 23,000 Marines in Iraq, out of a total 138,000 U.S. Armed Forces personnel. Marines are 17 percent of our total force, yet they have suffered 29 percent of all U.S. casualties; 530 of the more than 1,820 U.S. service personnel killed in Iraq. The Marine’s aggressive tactics combined with a lack of armored firepower has proven lethal, their bravery notwithstanding.”
–Again you are ignorant of the Marine Corps, the USMC takes higher percentage of casualties to its overall size because it has a higher percentage of combat personnel. The USMC has no medical personnel, limited support functions, and many specialized units like the USAF, US Army, and the Navy. It is ultimately a fighting force and nothing else. So yes, they will take higher casualties percentages to their total force than the other services because a higher percentage are in combat! Armor, despite your obvious love for it, does not win insurgencies and cant win them. This has been proven time and time again and need not be debated here by me.
“The United States Marines pride themselves on being better than the US Army. They are harder, more gung-ho, and they possess some magic that enables them to do things the US Army can’t do. If this is not true, (as recent events in Iraq suggest), then there is no reason for a separate Marine Corps.
….
The truth is, the US Army conducted the biggest amphibious assault in our nation’s history when they captured the Normandy beaches. And neither the Army or the Marines have assaulted an enemy held beach since the Korean war, over fifty years ago. In every subsequent conflict Soldiers and Marines have fought in the same way, using similar equipment and tactics.”
–Yet Marines have made landings time and time again and threatened such landings even more often. Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Kuwait, Lebanon, Somalia, and everywhere a MEU floats it threatens a landing.
You also neglect the Marines ‘forcible entry’ capability that the Army lacks. Excepting the 82nd and 101st, but these units have become too heavy and require significant staging bases, which the Marines do not. See 2001 Afghanistan.
“The Marines are in fact a second Army, and since they compete with the Army for funds, missions, and prestige, their real enemy is… the US Army.”
Acutally, no, the Marines are in FACT not a second Army any more than the Army is all one big glob of tanks. The Army has tanks, atrillery, helicopters, infantry, veternarians, etc. Nor do they ‘compete’ with the Army for funds. Generally, the only funds that matter, R&D and procurement funds, are used jointly by the Army and Marines anyway because they both fight on land. The cost of maintaining training, living / bases, etc would still exist regardless of who they were part of. Its also ignorant to equate the two and a DISSERVICE to the Army as much as the Marine Corps to do so.
“However, the Marine Corps has an unfair advantage in this competition. Since the end of Desert Storm the US Army has been downsized by one third, losing over 200,000 troops and eight combat divisions. By Contrast the Marines have lost only twenty thousand personnel. The reason is the National Security Act of 1947, which prevents any changes in the force structure of the Marines.”
–No.. Again you show ignorance of the USMC force structure AND logic. The Army had more room to lose, plain and simple. Alternatively, the USMC did lose an entire regiment (the 9th) and gutted much of III MEF of most of its strength. The battalions of the 9th have returned but will go away again soon.
“Today’s United States Marine Corps is only slightly larger than the US Army in Iraq. That war is stretching our Army to the breaking point. The obvious solution is to merge the Army and Marine corps into one service.”
–This is the most ignorant part of your whole argument. The “obvious” solution to an overstretched Army is to incorporate and overstretched Marine Corps”??!?! Exactly HOW does that help?? Wouldnt the “obvious” solution be for the Army to commit more of its force structure to combat units and combine adminitrative services with the Air Force (its natural partner) and request increased strength to Congress? Why are you putting such a gutless position to your CoS as to be scared to ask for more personnel?
Which back to my point, I noticed you neglected to say anything about the Air Force and the possible ‘redundancies’ that could be removed by unifying the Air Force and Army. Perhaps your service envy / enmity is too strong?
“The savings would add up to tens of billions of dollars when their training, logistics, administration, and headquarters were merged. The personnel shortages that are now crippling both services would disappear. And so would the rivalry between the Army and the Marine Corps.”
–Your financial ignorance is not worth commenting. And ‘combining services’ wouldnt change the number of missions that need fulfilled. Likewise, the ‘rivalry’, such as it is, from my perspective has been generally one of mutual respect (saving ignorant people like yourself) and beneficial by encouraging each to do better and be better.
Dam, seriously how long did it take you to write this? i bet your blood was boiling huh? wow, lol
i would response to everything you wrote but never mind. i’ll just point out few things, amphibious landing in Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Kuwait, Lebanon, Somalia, is a joke, you forgot to mention Amphibious landing in Indonesia, Japan (humanitarian) and at San Diego beach,don’t forget to count those because every time you come on land from the ocean it consider a Amphibious landing.lol how difficult is it to get on a navy boat and run on the beach? for the record U.S Army have done more Amphibious landing than the Marine Corp. Airborne Operation were use in Iraq and Afghanistan just to let u know.
The question for me is not the capabilities of the Marine, but that they are attention horde. look, if the Marine supposedly so much better than the Army, then i suggest we get rid of the Army completely. Corp is under 50,000 anything over is consider an Army, yes you are an Army.
“There were no Marines in the Continental Army that won the Revolutionary War.”
No there were not, except for the Battle of Princeton. The Marine Battalion of 141 officers and men took 60 casualties.A small number of survivors escorted British prisoners to Philadelphia. The remainder joined the Continental Army.
There were no marines at Saratoga, at valley Forge or at Monmouth. No Marines fought in Nathanel Greene’s campaign which liberated the Carolinas.The only marines at Yorktown were 800 British Royal Marines who were part of Cornwallis’ Army.
Also, there were no Marines at Trenton.
“The Marine Corps reputation was built again before Choisin by its actions in the Pusan Perimeter where the 1st Marine were used as a ‘fire brigade’ very successfully. And directly afterward, the landings a Inchon, again led by your MacA, brought more acclaim.”
By the time the Marine Brigade arrived at Pusan the Army already had 4 divisions on the ground.
At the start of the Korean War, the Marine Corps could not put troops on the ground. It took a number of weeks for the Marines to scrape the bottom of every barrel it had to organize one regimental combat team. While the Marines organized this RCT, soldiers were in Kporea fighting, dying, establishing the Pusan perimeter.
Had the soldiers not fought effectively enough to form that perimeter, the war would have ended before the Mariners could intervene.
Mullah Mike, you again show your ignorance. The Marine Corps had to ‘scrape the bottom of the barrel’ because of the excessive demobilization and military downsizing after WW II. I suggest you look at “For the Common Defense: A Military History of the United States of America” by Millett & Maslowski. It’s only 650+ pages. Maybe you and Durant can read it to one another in a bubble bath?
“On June 8, 2011 at 12:59 am reader said:
Mullah Mike, you again show your ignorance. The Marine Corps had to ‘scrape the bottom of the barrel’ because of the excessive demobilization and military downsizing after WW II.”
What makes you think the Army was not affected by the post World War II downsizing?
Marine admirers really savage the Army over its performance in Korea, claiming Army troops would not fight while Marines would.
The bottom line was, in 1951, in spite of the downsizing, the Army could still put troops in the fiels on short notice, The Marine Corps could not.
Had the Army been incapable of putting troops into the field, the Marines would not have gotten into the fight. Yet the Marines like to claim they single handedly saved Korea.
One factor in comparing Army and Marine Corps performance in Korea is this: Army units had to fight alone and unsupported against numerically superior North Korean units. The Marines did not. By the time the Marines had gotten into the war, the Pusan perimeter had formed. Whenever the Marine Brigade went into action, it had friendly units on its flanks and support in its rear. The first Army units to fight in Korea enjoyed no such support.
The number of soldiers who served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan exceeds the total strength of the Marine Corps.
Furthermore, MacA was no stranger to sending Marines and soldiers into useless slaughter, it was his idiocy that led to the pointless battle for Peleliu.
Peleliu was such a prolongrd bloody battlenot because of MacArthur but because of Marine Generals William Rupertus and Roy Geiger.
Rupertus got his Marines slaughtered ab having them make direct frontal attacks against positions which were impregnable to direct frontal attack.
Geiger would not relieve Rupertus when it was apparent Rupertus was getting his Marines slaughtered.
Army Generals tried to avoid the tactic of direct frontal attack against strong defensive positions. Had an Army General had direct control over Peleliu, the battle might not have been so bloody.
“The USMC has no medical personnel, limited support functions…”
How many Marine Corps lives have been saved by Army Medical Department personnel?
In the wake of the Beirut bombing Army Physicians did save a number of Marine lives.
US Military medicine is the best in the world. It is mostly the result of Army Medical Department research and development.
In 1982, all the interns at the Navy Hospital in Bethesda took off a week, went to Fort Sam Houston Texas, and completed the Army Combat Casualty Care Course.
How about that Marines? You get the benefit of the best Military Medicine in the world, largely because of the US Army you so intensely despise.
Dennis,
That was one of the best rebuttals ive read in any of these silly forums.
Im a prior service 0313 who later crossdecked to the USA (money talks). Having seen both sides I have good and bad to say about both.
Agree with just about everything you wrote, except your comment about the 82cd/101. Aside form those two, theres also the 173rd and obviously rhe 75th (which people tend to forget is Infantry, not the super secret squirrel boogeyman some make them out to be). All can absolutely ‘kick in the door’.
So just comparing the two (MEU vs Airborne), whereas yes, the MEU can land reinforced with armour support and organic CAS…..thats only if they have a beach. As an 0313 (and this goes for my step brothers in tanks) were not getting off the boat unless something can take us there. Same as the cannon cockers. So unless thats available, youre left with the helo company 0311’s and the boat guys having to leave their boats and waiting for the lift helos to.come back. Once that happens….its all just rifleman. No real support, other than weapons Co.
My point being is that its now on the same terms the 82cd guys will come in as.
So in order for it to work as planned the MEU has to establish a beachhead. To be fair, thats just a fancy way of saying airfield….as in if used tradionally, the 75th and 82cd would take down an airfield, and within hours the heavier stuff would start coming in via C-17s and sooner or later you have roughly the same thing as a MEU
One last thing id add that the airborne guys have as an advantage over the MEU…the MEU is forward deployed, absolutely. But it may not be deployed in the right place. So it takes time to get there even with best intents….the airborne guys can be on the ground (in perfect conditions) anywhere in the world in something like 18 hours.
Good post though. Hope some of the harder headed slash retardeds on here read it and learn something
JOINT OVERVIEW
OF
OPERATION URGENT FURY
1 MAY 1985
CLASSIFIED
All you have to do is read this. During Operation Urgent Fury. This Military Joint Services Overview says that the Army had problems on the airfield and they had to send some Marines to help. It praised the Marines for their Combat readiness. So whatever your problem is take it up with the Army Generals who wrote this report. Look this official PDF File up.
Please somebody mention the Army Medal of Honor Count vs the Marines Medal of Honor Count and how Stupid it is to compare the Marines to the Army
The Army has been the one doing all of the combat
The Marines have some but will never in History beat the Army
Medal of Honor
The Highest Medal you can get in the Military.
LOL @ “The fact is, for most of their history the United States Marine Corps was little more than a security force for the Navy.”
fact is, the marines NEEDED to justify their existance. it makes sense they’d take advantage of the chosin resevoir (i mean, saying that ‘the army saved out asses’ just doesn’t SOUND macho).
facts are fact: world war 2 saw the army kill more japanese in the pacific theater, more ‘efficiently’ than the navy;
the marines were essentially non-existant in the european phase;
the army WINS wars, the marines ‘help out’.
this is NOT, repeat, NOT a put down of the marines. they are american fighting men, and often are the first (by virtue of being on ships) to arrive on the scene. but their numbers alone mean they can’t win wars. the ARMY, by it’s sheer size and scope, gets the job done.
what i’ve noticed is this: younger marine enlisted seem to be the loudmouths, and when they mature into sergeants, they tend to be quietly proud.
so, let the young guys blow off steam and think they’re something special. they tend to grow up and know that as long as there’s an american next to him, doesnt matter if it’s a soldier, sailor or another marine.
The US Army did do a bit to save the Marines at Chosin.
The Army’s 31st RCT covered the East side of the Chosin Reservoir. It fought to the death taking out two Chinese Infantry Divisions, one of them reinforced. Those Chinese divisions attempted to advance down the East side of the Chosin reservoir, get behind the Marines and take Hagaru-ri.
There is information that more Soldiers than Marines died at the Chosin Reservoir.
Well said “regualr guy”. Well said. That’s exactly right, couldn’t have put it better myself.
No idiot thats where your wrong! America wins wars!!
The Army and Marines WIN BATTLES!! The U.S. Military (ARMY, AIR FORCE, NAVY, MARINES) and CIA/ Goverment contractors win wars..
The Marine Corps claims credit in part or in whole for other services accomplishments. What follows is a list of what Marines, contrary to Marine claims, did not do:
Fight in the Battle of Trenton in December 1776
Hold back the British at Bladensburg in 1814(that honor belongs to Commodore Joshua Barney’s sailors)
Anchor Andrew Jackson’s line at the Battle of New Orleans
Capture Chapultepec castle in the Mexican War.
Be the first US troops to fight ib WWI(3rd ID went into action 3 days before Belleau Wood)
Play a major role in defending the Phillipine Islands in WWII
Single handedly save Korea in the Korean War(Soldiers went in first and establish the Pusab Perimeter. Had that not happened the Marines woud never have gotten into the Korean War. At the outbreak of that war, the Marine Corps was noy capable of putting troops into the field.)
Mike – It would be REALLY helpful if you cited where “MARINES” made these claims. I may have missed it in this long thread if you’ve already included citations.
To my last comment I add, the Marine Corps did not stop the final Japanese Suicide attack on Saipan, July 7, 1944.
Marines claim 3rd Battalion 10th Marines(artillery) stopped the Japanese. 3/10 Marines was the only Marine unit to fight in that battle. The Japanese drove the Marines away from their guns and captured all there guns.
Both the army and the marines defeated the Japanese banzai attack. In fact, it’s not like the marines got all the credit. If you knew about the battle, you would know that 3 men of the 105th infantry regiment, an ARMY battalion, gained the Medal of Honor. It is actually considered one of the army’s greatest moments in the battle for the pacific.
What I don’t understand is why do marines only use quotes and not facts when defending the Marine Corp? If this article is completely wrong then you should be able to name facts and dates, not just quote some general trying to butter up the troops.
Well, sometimes the quotes, especially from Army Generals, summarize facts.
The quote from Norman Schwarzkopf was distorted. It was presented as if General Schwarzkopf singled out the Marines for praise.
I watched General Schwarzkopf’s speech as it was happening. General Schwarzkopf did not single out the Marines from all the troops who participated in Desert Sword. He praised all the troops, including the Army’s VII Corps which fought the Republican Guard while the Marines, with the support of the Tiger Brigade from the Army’s 2nd Armored Division, fought Iraq’s second line troops.
I find this discussion to be interesting despite the silly and absurd comments. The bottom line is that we should honor and support the Soldiers and Marines who have and will continue to serve our nation and preserve freedom.
In my experience I do find that Marines tend to be more boisterous and forceful in their arguing the superiority, grit or toughness of the USMC. This is consistent with their great PR and recruiting campaigns where they sell their service much better than the Army does. Some of that PR is based upon some hallow facts, “First to Fight” and “The Few, the Proud, the Marines.” Not sure when or in what wars the USMC was actually or will be the first to fight or that 200,000 can be considered few. USMC history also tends to ignore the contribution of Army units in such battles as Guadalcanal and Okinawa. The Army on the other hand struggles to identify itself, “Army Strong” or “Army of One”, uniform changes (berets, blues, etc.), and changing unit organizations (Brigade Combat Teams).
This whole argument is flawed because of bias and over generalizations. What is trying to be defined here? Who is better, tougher or more combat effective? The Army vs. Marine Corps argument is over broad and can’t be won by either side.
Let’s look individually. Can one seriously state that a USMC clerk is better, tougher or more combat effective than an Army Ranger or the Army cook is better, tougher or more combat effective than the USMC Force Recon Marine? The USMC has a bit of a different philosophy with training that has been mentioned here. They emphasize infantry skills and provide more infantry-specific training to all Marines as opposed to the Army. USMC basic is longer by three weeks. Maybe this is better or not. However, that doesn’t really have much relevance when we are talking about combat units. A soldier in an Army infantry battalion will receive much more infantry training than the USMC mechanic will and as much or equivalent to his USMC infantry counterpart.
Let’s look at combat units. Combat effectiveness has more to do with training, TO&E, and combat experience and nothing to do with whether a unit is in the Army or USMC. Let’s look at each of these.
A unit that receives training before going into battle will do better than one that does not. Hence, the lack of effectiveness of some Army units deployed in Korea at the start of the Korean War. Units rotating to war zones in Afghanistan and Iraq go through months of preparatory training before being deployed, which makes them more battle worthy. This training trend has not always been the case. Ill-trained replacements flooded Army and Marine units in Vietnam with resulting loss in effectiveness.
A unit’s equipment and organization will dictate its success in certain circumstances, regardless of service. The Marines are mostly medium type infantry units that operate in self-contained grouping that facilitate rapid and independent deployments. Great for insertions, insurrections, Haiti, Caribbean, etc. However, don’t expect the Marines to be able to effectively conduct blitzkrieg operations due to the lack of operational and tactical land mobility and lack of armored vehicles. Hence why the Marines were not part of the armored thrust in either the Gulf War or Iraq invasion. They would not be able to keep up with a mechanized force like the 3rd Infantry Division. Look at the last battle in Fallujah. The Army battalions made quicker progress. Is this because the Army units were better? No, it had to do with their inherent armored vehicles that provided greater mobility and more firepower. Had the insurgents possessed better or more numerous anti-armor weapons, the effectiveness of the Army units would have been reduced.
Combat experience is the third component. A unit that has combat experience will be more effective than one without it. Look at the 1st Infantry Division in WWII. This unit was highly combat effective because it had been in continuous operations from North Africa, Sicily, and Europe. Compare with how the 106th Infantry Division did in the Battle of the Bulge. Same TO&E but almost no combat experience.
I find these types of arguments frustrating too as we tend to forget the contribution of some while glorifying that of others. Look at the Battle of the Bulge. We remember the exploits and heroics of the 101st Airborne, which held out and prevailed despite high odds. We don’t remember the exploits and heroics of the 28th Division during the same battle. The 28th had just engaged in ferocious combat in the Huertgen Forest (weren’t in reserve like the 101st) and had suffered huge casualties. They were exhausted and depleted. The 28th was deployed on the front in spread-out and small units in a supposedly quiet sector. They faced the brunt of the initial German offensive and fought valiantly. It was to their efforts that allowed the 101st to make it t Bastogne. So, who is more valiant? The 101st, which faced steep odds, fought, and won or the 28th, which faced overwhelming and hopeless odds, fought anyway, and sacrificed themselves?
“A unit that receives training before going into battle will do better than one that does not. Hence, the lack of effectiveness of some Army units deployed in Korea at the start of the Korean War.”
Nevertheless, it was Army Units which took the field in the Korean War.As I have said in other comments, in 1950 the “first to fight” Marines were incapable of putting troops on the ground.
Had the Defense of Korea been left solely up to the Marines, there would have been no defense of Korea.
The Marines had time to train before they were committed to Pusan. The Army troops first comitted to the war bought time for the Marines to train.
I was in the Navy and participated in the joking around. The Marines aboard my ship did a fine job. In fact everyone did a fine job. We scared the Soviets so bad that their country fell apart. I knew that I didn’t want to do the Marines job, and he knew that he didn’t want mine. I have personally seen Sailors and Marines band together to fight angry civilians in bars in foreign ports. The next day it was back to “sea going bellhops” and “swab jockeys”. Things are fine just the way they are
“We scared the Soviets so bad that their country fell apart.”
The Soviets were more afraid of fighting Seventh Army in Europe.
Also, The frog making the comments. Eat shit! The USMC is a highly trained force. I have worked with them and respect them. They are my brothers in arms. I have served with all the branches at one time or another. also, had many a bar room brawl with them, and after words had drinks with them. Real warriors. every Branch thinks there better. Truth is, we all need each other.
holy shit….mike sparks is here too.
guys just to let you know, this guy is arguing with himself. He posts 1 pro army post and then counters it with an anti USMC post. The guy is a nut case. Just trying to get people riled up cause he couldnt pass the swim qual back in basic.
Mike Sparks is G. Durant and a couple of other people.
this fucker talks about USMC being ungrateful when the early Continental Marines captured the first stores of ammunition and cannon for use by the Cont. Army from the British at places like Nassau.
You have the Navy-Marine team to thank for all the powder you recieved for Trenton. When Washinton took over control of the army, his troops were down to 9 rounds of ammunition per man.
The actions that helped propel USA to it’s superpower status were done by a highly mobile expeditionary force of the Banana wars. Army wasnt there either.
Yes we were a small force, but we pulled alot of our own weight. We earned our bragging rights on the high seas in the 19th century, where Army was nowhere to be found. Army’s performance is still a matter of embarrassment when you consider how it performed during the war of 1812, or the mass surrenders it undertook during the early pacific campaign of the 1940s.
You werent there during the Whitehaven raid of 1778 either, yet we dont bitch. It was only the first raid on English soil in 116 yrs. At this time von Steuben was merely teaching you how to march as a unit.
“You have the Navy-Marine team to thank for all the powder you recieved for Trenton. When Washinton took over control of the army, his troops were down to 9 rounds of ammunition per man.”
More Marine Corps distortion designed to give the Corps credit where no credit is due.
Read “Washington’s Crossing”. The Continental Army before Trenton was well supplied with ammunition and arms. Their equipment was either imported from France or manufactured in the US.
The arms and ammunition captured at Nassau went to equip the Continental Navy which, with the exception of a few officers such as John Young, John Paul Jones and John Barry, was not very effective during the Revolutionary War.
“You werent there during the Whitehaven raid of 1778 either, yet we dont bitch. It was only the first raid on English soil in 116 yrs. At this time von Steuben was merely teaching you how to march as a unit.”
The Army has never claimed to have participated in the raid on Whitehaven, as strategically insignificant as it was.
On the other hand, Trenton was probably the most crucial victory in American military history. No Marines ever fought at Trenton. Yet the Marine Corps has claimed tha Marines did fight at Trenton.
The munitions used by the Continental Army at Trenton DID NOT come from the Marines’raid on Nassau.
For what it is worth, I am neither Mike Sparks or G. Durant
Neither am I Scott Piraino.
“We earned our bragging rights on the high seas in the 19th century…”
Who earned bragging rights on the high seas was the United States Navy. Read the accounts of the naval War of 1812. The role of the Marines in the victories over the British Navy was miniscule.
Constitution, for example, defeated Guerriere, Java, Cyane and Levant, because of superior sailing and superior gunnery, not because of her Marine detachment.
“Army’s performance is still a matter of embarrassment when you consider …the mass surrenders it undertook during the early pacific campaign of the 1940s.”
You are referring to the Defense of Bataan in which thousands of soldiers fought a desperate four month battle against the invading Japanese without adequate ammunition, food, medical support. The soldiers surrendered after they had literally fought to exhaustion, literally fought to the last bullet.
While the soldiers fought the desperate Battle of Bataan, the 4th Marine Regiment, the only organized Marine unit in the Philippines, remained on Corregidor. One reason the Marines did not surrender on Bataan Is that they, unlike thousands of soldiers, were not tasked to fight to exhaustion.
That has not prevented Marine admirers from claiming credit for the Marine Corps for the defense of Bataan, e.g. Chuck Lawliss in “The Marine Book”, Gregory J. W. Urwin in an article he wrote for “Military History”, How Marine POWs Hung Tough, whoever produced the 1943 movie “Salute to the Marines”.
I say again, Marines disrespect the Army while claiming credit for what the Armynhas accomplished>
“Army’s performance is still a matter of embarrassment when you consider how it performed during the war of 1812…”
Early in the War of 1812, the Army did not perform well. Like Korea, the Army did go into battle before the Marines.
Later in the War the Army did perform well. Army victories were key to the US ending the War without any significant territorial losses.
Jacob Brown’s forces, Regulars and Militia, defeated a British attempt to destroy Sacketts Harbor in 1813. Sacketts Harbor was Isaac Chauncey’s base on Lake Ontario. Loss of Sacketts Harbor would seriously compromised the American Naval effort on Lake Ontario. Accounts of the battle record no participation by Marines.
The Niagara campaign in 1814 was a strategic defeat. Tactically it was a US victory. US Army forces, with no involvement from the Marines, won Chippewa and successfully defended Fort Erie. They fought the British to a bloody draw at Lundy’s Lane.
There were no Marines at Plattsburgh. Thomas MacDonough’s “marines” were soldiers from Alexander Macomb’s Army.
The British evacuated what was the US Northwest because of Oliver Hazard Perry’s victory on Lake Erie. Marines served on Perry’s Flagship, USS Lawrence. Lawrence was shot to pieces by the British. Perry won the battle by transferring his flag to USS Niagara, whose “marines” were soldiers from William Henry Harrison’s Army. After Lake Erie, Harrison defeated the British soundly at the Battle of the Thames, without any participation from the Marines.
The Marines did not hold back the British at Bladensburg. That honor belongs to Commodore Joshua Barney and his unit of Sailors.There were no Marines at the Battle of Godly Wood. An outnumbered US Militia Brigade held off the British Ground Force, inflicting almost twice as many casualties than they took, including MG Robert Ross, British Army Commander. That had More effect on forcing the British to leave the Chesapeake thanBladensburg.
Fort McHenry was an Army Post. The defense of Fort McHenryhad more effect on the British than anything the Marines did at Bkladensburg.
Finally, at New Orleans, in January of 1815, Andrew Jackson had 4000 men on line. Only 58 were Marines. No Marines played any crucial role in New Orleans.
The Marines’ story of the War of 1812 is another example of Marines distorting History.
“The actions that helped propel USA to it’s superpower status were done by a highly mobile expeditionary force of the Banana wars. Army wasnt there either.”
Wrong.
What propelled the US to super power status was World War II. The US Army did more to win WWII than the Marine Corps.
I looked up Mike sparks and it turns out he is a former marine and truth teller. Sad to say but the facts kill the the usmc and this exactly why they hate the former marine, Mike Sparks.
Scott Piraino….Mike Sparks…G. Durant….dynamic para = nomorenarcissism
all one person
He/”they” never served anywhere
He’s a used car salesman in Columbus, Ga
You are a spineless moron as we know nothing of this Phantom “Mike Sparks” of whom you speak of in your falacious diatribe. Real American patriots stand up for historical truth. The usmc is fraud so bow down you worm.
That would be Michael L Sparks. He pretends to be a US Army officer, and pretends to have been a US Marine Corps officer before that. The truth is that he works for a civilian towing company outside Ft Benning, when he’s not dressing up in the uniform he’s not allowed to wear for real and playing at being a soldier.
Mikey got the boot from both the US Marine Corps and the US Army. See, Soldiers and Marines CAN agree on some things.
Dan, you are supporting Piraino’s arguments with your unsupported bluster. Capturing and supplying ammunition for Trenton, Banana wars, Whitehaven? Really? How about at least Tarawa, Iwo Jima?
I’d be careful about being critical and pointing fingers. Marines surrendered at Guam, Wake Island, the Philippines, and China at the beginning of WWII also and at Hell Fire Valley at the Chosin Reservoir.
I don’t consider these embarrassments or dishonor but the actions of troops abandoned, cut off, and in hopeless situation, like their brother Soldiers in the Philippines you choose to denigrate.
“The myth of the Marine Corps as a second army began in WW I. ”
Interestingly the Marine Corps has consistently denied this status as another army throughout its history to the present day.
Not too many years ago, Marines self-described their limited role as “We make Marines. We win battles.”
This is a clear declaration of their limited and unique role.
The Army has never taken on (well) the role of a force in true readiness.
The design of the Marine expeditionary forces (MEU, MEB, MEF) which most people don’t understand, was an entirely Marine idea..and the Army is still trying to mimic with the overweight Stryker brigades. Ask the recovered AF pilot who went down in Libya whether the Marine Corps is “faithful”.
Here’s what an Army General said:
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on? [Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff; during the assault on Grenada, 1983]
“The Army has never taken on (well) the role of a force in true readiness.”
In Korea in 1951, the first priority was to get troops on the ground to oppose the North Koreans. The first troops put on the ground were soldiers. They were not particularly well trained but they did get on the ground to fight the North Korean Army and did establish the Pusan Perimeter.
At the outbreak of the Korean War, the Marines were not prepared to put troops on the ground. The Army troops which first fought in Korea, bought the Marines time to get into the fight.
“The Army has never taken on (well) the role of a force in true readiness.”
During the cold war, who was on the front line ready to oppose a Soviet Invasion of Europe? Not the Marines.
“Not too many years ago, Marines self-described their limited role as “We make Marines. We win battles.'”
Only twice in their history have the Marines won a Battle unaided, Betio and Iwo Jima.
In the Battle for Belleau Wood, the Marine Brigade was supported by the Second Engineer Regiment
The victories on Guadalcanal, the Southwest Pacific, Saipan, Guam and Peleliu all required commitment of Army troops.
Seventh Infantry Division was significant to the victory of the Inchon Invasion.
At Chosin, the 31st Regimental Combat Team successfully covered the East flank of First Marine Division. In fact, more soldiers tha Marines died in the Chosin Reservoir fighting.
The Army, without any involvement from Marines, has won hundreds of battles.
You’re grossly under-informed and distorting You said: “On March 30th, General Conway told a reporter that “There’s no place in our area of operation that we won’t go, and we have taken some casualties in the early going making that point“. The next day four civilian contractors were killed and mutilated in Fallujah, and five Marines also lost their lives. The Marines sealed off the city and attempted to reassert control over Fallujah, but the insurgents proved to be more determined than expected.”
If you’re trying to lay the deaths of the Blackwater personnel on Marines or on Gen Conway, you’re smoking crack. Marines at the ECP told the Blackwater personnnel not to go into that area yet…in the manner they were planning to go (alone). But they did.
“The Army has never taken on (well) the role of a force in true readiness.”
Well, the 82nd Airborne is probably the most, true ready and rapid large force available, Army or Marines. However, you are correct that the rest of the Army is not that nimble.
“The design of the Marine expeditionary forces (MEU, MEB, MEF) which most people don’t understand, was an entirely Marine idea..and the Army is still trying to mimic with the overweight Stryker brigades.”
I think I understand it and it has historically been a good concept. However, the expeditionary force concept may be outdated, along with the old Army division structure. There has not been a need in a long time nor do I foresee the need to conduct large scale amphibious landings. Air insertion via helicopter or plane is more efficient and timely. Marine expeditionary forces take weeks to reach destinations via ships, hence why the first force into Saudi Arabia was the 82nd following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
The Army BCT concept is an evolutionary process and we’ll see how it plays out in the long run. It is prompted by the need to meet varied missions, to include being mobile enough to be inserted and handle insurgencies, peace keeping, and combat roles. I feel the concept does detract from the Army’s overall ability to fight conventional wars versus such opponents as the North Koreans. However, who knows exactly. Our military’s high skill, performance, and technology have kicked the snot out of everyone it has faced since Desert Storm so maybe the change isn’t a bad one.
“We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on? [Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff; during the assault on Grenada, 1983]”
This is the same kind of nonsense stated above to further inter-service rivalry. Each side can come up with its list of incidents and events, Grenada for you and Saipan for someone else. Come on, give it a break.
If that were true, why is the 82nd very very rarely used for embassy evacuations, short notice humanitarian assistance / disaster relief, port and airfield seizures, VBSS, etc. etc. It’s medium term response.
Because it doesnt really work that way. Evacuating an embassy would require the means to get people and leave….it would be tough, I imagine, to load the 82cd guys as well as…..their helicopters, into the back of a C-17….as in they could jump in but not evacuate from an equipment perspective. An MEU can do it simply because it has its heliopters, but it would have to get the ship close enough to do it.
Say you had to evacuate an embassy in california, and the Marines were off of Seattle….theyd be as powerless to help as the 82cd
Most recently…in addition to providing strikes on Libya (and flood relief to Pakistan the earlier in the deployment, and preparing to evac 3 embassies)…the Marines were being their “never faithful” selves….read this snippet.
“Harney’s rescue came more quickly. He stayed in communications with another F-15 pilot still in the air over Libya. Eventually an MV-22 Osprey carrying Marines who were part of a Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel, or TRAP, team landed near his position.
“As that back door opened, I see a group of young Marine recon units jump out, and that was probably the best feeling I’ve ever felt in my entire life,” Harney said. He was flown to the USS Kearsarge for a quick medical check then a short time later sent home with Stark to RAF Lakenheath, where friends and family welcomed them with hugs and a rendition of “God Bless America.”
Just with respect to being available and able to handle very short notice contingency operations….here are some non-quotes. Just from the 1970s forward.
June-July 1976, Lebanon: 32d Marine Amphibious Unit (MAU) evacuated 160 American citizens and 148 other foreign nationals.
24-25 June 1982, Lebanon: 32d MAU evacuated nearly 600 American citizens and designated foreign nationals.
August 1982, Lebanon: 32d MAU aided in the evacuation of 12,000 PLO fighters and supporters.
October-December 1983, Grenada: 22d Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) (in conjunction with other U.S. and Caribbean forces) intervened to protect and evacuate American citizens and foreign nationals, neutralize Granadan and Cuban forces, maintain order and assist in restoring democratic government.
25 May–9 January 1991, Liberia: 22d MEU protected US Embassy and evacuated over 2,400 civilians.
2-11 January 1991, Somalia: 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) evacuated 260 U.S. and foreign citizens from the American Embassy in Mogadishu.
April 1994, Rwanda: 11th MEU provided force to perform NEO; 241 citizens evacuated.
April-August 1996, Liberia: 22d MEU evacuated U.S. citizens and foreign nationals from Monrovia, Liberia.
March 1997, Tirana, Albania: 26th MEU evacuated 877 American citizens.
April 1997, Kinshasa, Zaire: 26th MEU evacuated American citizens.
30 May-2 June 1997, Freetown, Sierra Leone: 22d MEU evacuated 451 American citizens and 2,058 foreign nationals.
6 June 1998, Asmara, Eritrea: 11th MEU evacuated 105 American citizens and numerous foreign nationals.
June 2003, Liberia: 2d MEB aboard USS Kearsarge evacuated American citizens from Embassy.
February 2004, Port-au-Prince, Haiti: Fifty Marines from a special detachment of the 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) landed in the Haitian capital of Port-au-Prince to secure the U.S. Embassy and help evacuate American citizens.
July-August 2006, Lebanon: Marine Security Force Company, Bahrain and 24th MEU participated in evacuations of American citizens in response to the increased hostilities between the Hezbollah militants and Israeli Army.
The 26th MEU just came back and in that time prepared 3 embassies for evacuation due to the “Arab Spring”
In 1991, in Desert Saber, US Army units demolished Iraq’s front line armor units while the Marines took on Iraq’s second line units.
Better stated, it was the usmc who took on all the wimps who did not fight at all! It was the US Army who did ALL the tough fighting to be truthfull. Ask all the Republican Guard units who got their heads handed to them by the US Army! Bow down you lowly usmc dogs!
Actually the air force did that stupid. I’ve never seen so much crap made up by one person.
You might want to read some history and look at seventh corps ops. They didn’t have the luxury of correspondents.
http://www.3ad.com/history/gulf.war/feature.pages/correcting.myths.htm
“If that were true, why is the 82nd very very rarely used for embassy evacuations, short notice humanitarian assistance / disaster relief, port and airfield seizures, VBSS, etc. etc. It’s medium term response.”
Look back at my prior post in regards to mission, TO&E and the like. Of course, the Marines are the ideal force to conduct evacuations and these other missions because they have the inherent support and logistics from off shore vessels. You wouldn’t drop a brigade of the 82nd in to evacuate an embassy. Where are the evacuees going to go?
I thought we were discussing combat operations weren’t we? Wasn’t that the whole discussion here for those who would argue the superiority of the Army or the Marines? First to Fight, not First to Evacuate.
Seriously, the 82nd is the most rapid deployment force for combat operations. They can be just about anywhere in the world within a day. That is why they were landed in Saudi Arabia following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. They didn’t have to fight but were first there.
First in doesn’t mean most combat capable. Without armored vehicles and support, the 82nd is at a disadvantage in the desert when facing armored forces. Fortunately, US airpower was on hand to balance it out.
I am not going to impugn the honor of either the Army or the Marines, unlike many previous posts. Both have illustrious histories but have different missions and capabilities.
To whoever said the Marines, when they invaded Nassau, captured the munitions that equipped the Continental Army is wrong. This is another case of the Marines distorting history to exalt the Marines. The Continental Army was fighting before the Marines ever came into existence.
Militia under Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold captured Fort Ticonderoga in May of 1775, months before the Continental Navy and Continental Marines were established. Their artillery fcame rom Fort Ticonderoga, not Nassau. Army Colonel Henry Knox transported Ticonderoga’s artillery to Boston in the winter of 1775-1776. Most of the Continental Army’s small arms and ammunition was either imported from France(see “The Winter Soldiers” and “Washington’s Crossing”) or manufactured in the US. Boston fell on March 17, 1776, after heavy artillery from Ticonderoga was emplaced on Dorchester Heights.
The Battle of Nassau took place in early March of 1776, only about two weeks before the fall of Boston. The Marines Nassau for about two weeks. The squadron which carried the Marines who invaded Nassau was still at sea in April of 1776(the engagement between Alfred, squadron flagship, and HMS Glasgow took place on April 6, 1776.
The arms captured at Nassau by the Marines went to fitting out ships of the Continental Navy. The Continental Marines did not play any crucial role in the American Revolution.
“At this time von Steuben was merely teaching you how to march as a unit.”
Before Von Steuben was instructing the Continental Army in an effective way of fighting, the Continental Army was, with minimal to no contribution from the Marines, was winning the battles of Trenton, Princeton and Saratoga, which kept the Revolution going. Saratoga brought the French in on the American side. Had that not happened there would have been no raid on Whitehaven. John Paul Jones’ Ranger was based in France at the time of the Whitehaven raid.
The Whitehaven raid ultimately failed in achieving any significant objective. John Paul Jones intended to burn a number of British Merchantmen. That never happened. He attempted to capture the Earl of Selkirk and exchange him for American Prisoners of war. That failed.
In any event, what happened at Valley Forge was a lot more important to winning the Revolutionary War than anything the Marines did at Whitehaven.
Like Trenton, Saratoga, Valley Forge, Yorktown, the battles that drove the British from the Carolinas, there were no Marines at Valley Forge.
“There were far more army than Marines in the Pacific.” No shit, there are far more soldiers than Marines. The fifth corps would attack from the north and the first marine division from the south. 1 marine division approx. 19000 men. 1 army corps is up to 47000 men. If the point of this story is to illustrate the army is way bigger that the Marine Corps, mission accomplished. btw i was in Iraq, the reason we stopped is we ran out of supplies because logistics couldn’t keep up. It had nothing to do with the enemy we “underestimated.” Research from a 3rd hand source, even a general who was back in washington getting briefed on the situation, is not as reliable a source as experience. I fought along side amry units and no doubt they are a formiddable force. But as somebody a few comments up posted, political correctness is seeping into the forces and the army is taking the brunt of it. Their standards, even from say 10 years ago, whether they like to admit it or not, are dropping. If you don’t believe my biased opinon, ask an army SSG or SFC. And as far as this whole amphibious thing goes, WWI was supposed to be the War to end all Wars. Just because it hasn’t happened in decades, doesn’t mean it won’t. You don’t stop training for contigincies just because they haven’t happened in awhile.
“There were far more army than Marines in the Pacific. No shit, there are far more soldiers than Marines.”
Right but I think the point is that the Army fails to get credit for their contribution. Who thinks about the Army when Guadalcanal and Okinawa are mentioned even though their contribution was essential to securing the island in the former and they provided twice as many divisions to the battle in the latter (the 2nd Marine Division remained offshore as a floating reserve). Also, don’t forget about New Guinea and the Philippines.
“The fifth corps would attack from the north and the first marine division from the south. 1 marine division approx. 19000 men. 1 army corps is up to 47000 men. If the point of this story is to illustrate the army is way bigger that the Marine Corps, mission accomplished. btw i was in Iraq, the reason we stopped is we ran out of supplies because logistics couldn’t keep up. It had nothing to do with the enemy we “underestimated.”
Not sure I understand the point here. The offensive to Baghdad was two pronged, with one division attacking from the south (1st Marine) and one division attacking from the southwest (3rd Infantry). Other units supported the two drives. The Marines do lack the logistics infrastructure support that the Army possesses. Both prongs achieved great success so I don’t see any point of contention here. We won and our Soldiers and Marines performed admirably.
“Their standards, even from say 10 years ago, whether they like to admit it or not, are dropping. If you don’t believe my biased opinon, ask an army SSG or SFC.”
This assertion is without any basis and merely supports the argument that the Marines boast and brag without factual substance.
“And as far as this whole amphibious thing goes, WWI was supposed to be the War to end all Wars. Just because it hasn’t happened in decades, doesn’t mean it won’t. You don’t stop training for contingencies just because they haven’t happened in awhile.”
True but there are limited resources and we must plan to face likely contingencies. The Army downsized heavy armored forces considerably after the Cold War to reorient to other more likely missions. The Russians could still attack Western Europe but not very likely. The need for a large amphibious operation is also very unlikely
dave, you and I are nearly on similar pages. Again, they could provide many divisions because they are well over double in size. I will concede the “This assertion is without any basis and merely supports the argument that the Marines boast and brag without factual substance” although i don’t consider it bragging to maintain one’s standards. I am now stationed at an Army base and have to listen to all my counterparts complain about dropping standards, but again no real stats to back it.(but I could find some, I bet) As far as down sizing, I think that its coming, and I can’t say that I don’t support it. But you can’t completely eliminate it, becuase you will be starting from scratch in the event you need that capability. Unlikely, yes, “very unlikely,” not really. Keep up the good work all forces.
Just stumbled across this article, Wow! BS, name calling and just plain immaturity aside the discussion is good. Former Army Infantry Major here with most of the bells, whistles, awards etc.
I vehemently disagree with disbanding the Corps and rolling it into the Army. Reinventing the MAGTF and Marine warrior culture isn’t worth the expense or risk of doing it wrong.
That said, the primary point seems to keep getting lost and that being too many Marines promote THEIR service at the cost of their brother service the Army.
I have a great respect for the Corps and Marines but that behavior is just pathetic.
Yet another article that reveals just how jealous the author is of the mystique that surrounds the United States Marine Corps.
The only thing articles like this are good for is starting never ending arguments between members of two honorable institutions.
Happy 4th of July a$$hole.
The Marine Corps and its admirers have a history of embellishing the “mystique” of the Marine Corps by falsifying its history, by claiming credit for what the Army did.
In 1921, The Marine Corps Gazette(an official Marine Corps publication) published an article which claimed, falsely, that Continental Marines played a key role in the Battles of Trenton and Princeton.
In 1943 a movie starring Wallace Beery, Salute to the Marines, was released. What the Marines were saluted for was defending the Philippines. The Marines in the Philippines in 1941-42 played a miniscule role in defending the Philippines.
The first part of “The Battle History of the Marines”, a documentary authored by a Marine officer presented on History International, it is said that a Battalion of Marines fought at Trenton. No Marines fought at Trenton.
Author Chuck Lawliss, in “The Marine Book” published in 2002, made a statement that the Marines who were defending Bataan resented General MacArthur for staying on Corregidor during the finding. The Army, not the Marines, defended Bataan.
Former Marine Donald Belissario, producer of JAG, in one of his episodes had a character described as a former Marine tank commander who lost a foot at the Battle of Medina Ridge. Medina Ridge was an Army battle, 1st Armored Division against units of the Republican Guard.
Regarding the Marines Hymn, Marines say “the Halls of Montezuma” refer to the Marines’ assault on Chapultepec. According to the Marine Corps publication, Marines did not assault Chapultepec.
The PBS documentary The Marines refers to the Marines as the most ancient of the Armed Forces. The Continental Army was established 5 months before the Continental Marine Corps.
Marines claim the Marines have been always there to guard the United States. The Continental Marines were disbanded in 1783. The US Marines were not established until 1798. The Continental Army was disbanded in 1783, but a unit of the Continental Army remained in existence to guard stores at West Point. The US Army was established in 1784.
With regard to the 1921 Marine Corps Gazette article, no Marines ever fought at Trenton. One small Battalion of Marines did fight at Princeton, but played no critical role in winning that battle.
Mike;
When a bonafide Marine takes credit for an Army exploit the “taking credit” charge against Marines makes sense. You really can’t fault the Marines for things people in the media do though you are totally right to correct it.
E.G. In the movie Heartbreak Ridge w/Clint Eastwood, the rescue of students, calling CAS with a credit card phone call and even the Korean War battle of Heartbreak Ridge are all inaccurately attributed to Marines. I don’t fault the Corps for those inaccuracies unless Marines start making claims based on the movie which says something about scholarship. FYI, actually had a Marine MAJOR saying Marines rescued students at Grenada on a military.com discussion thread.
BTW, these inaccuracies and worse all add to the “mystique” of the Corps. Marines shouldn’t be upset about them being corrected. Could one imagine the screams and derisive laughter if the Army tried to take credit for Iwo? Double standard?
Has any official Marine Corps spokesman ever spoken up to correct the distorted history which created this Marine Corps mystique?
Only you and your hooah bitches thinks it’s distorted. Two weeks ago I ran into a WWII vet that had a hat on saying iwo jima. I said Semper Fi to him and he said “I wasn’t in the marines, I was army”. I told him thank you for your service. Then he replied “it wasn’t that bad, we just cleaned up after the marines” he wasn’t just at iwo jima. This coming from a soldier actually in the pacific with the marines. I dont care what book you read… Books and the media can be misleading, in DDT history books don’t tell the whole truth. So unless you were there quit your bitching. Give credit where credit is due… And apparently it’s given to the marines.
To the guy below talking about the Rmy vet from Iwo saying ‘we just cleaned up after the Marines’. Id say thats very accurate.
That said, did you ask his MOS? Because IWO was one of the very few pacific landings the Marines were involved in where NO Army combat elements were involved. Somple support types, and in very small numbers. So while thats a cool story, it doesnt prove much about IWO, or about anything else.
It would be like someone else saying rhey ran into a Marine vet wearing a Normandy hat. And the Marine, who was simply security forces for whatever navy ship he was on, replied ‘it wasnt bad. The Army did all the fighting.’
By the way im not a hooah bitch, im a prior service Marine. Semper Fi and welcome home. And remember both sides have their wars….and wars are all the same…
Mike;
You can’t attribute all of the Marine Corps mystique to distorted history.
What level of effort should we hold the Marine Corp to in correcting the record. Is there a standard? Do we really want to go there? The Army can afford to be the “bigger” man.
Not saying we should allow Marines to twist history or make it up but I think your trying to hold the Marines to an impossible standard and hurting your case. Suggest sticking to what can be documented. You’ve done a very good job so far.
“Follow Me”
What is impossible about rendering an accurate account of history?
A lot of Marine attacks on the Army are malicious and libelous.
In his memoir, Coral and Brass, Holland M. Smith stated that, on Makin, he had to order men of the 165th Infantry to recover the body of their commander, Colonel Gardner Conroy, and bury it. Colonel Conroy was killed by a Japanese sniper shortly after the 165th Infantry landed on Makin. HM Smith claimed that the regiment allowed his body to lay in the field for three days.
The truth is, Col. Conroy’s body was recovered and buried on Makin the day he died.
HM Smith fabricated this episode. He lied.
If Marine Corps’ institutional historical accounts are repeatedly exposed to show inacuracies, or worse, outright fabrications, then by any reputable historical standard, their entire record is brought into question and doubt.
The most knowledgable on this thread are obviously aware of the fact that the Marine Corps maintains a very aggressive public relations operations, and a very large part of that is its historical branch. The Marine Corps is always a willing participant in any book or documentry, or movie in development, and will actively and aggressively support those projects only so long as they are complimentary to the Marine Corps. In those processes, they certainly exercise influence.
I spoke with one former Marine Corps major recently who was working on a book, and his research was increasingly showing evidence of Marine Corps mistakes at the highest level, and even cowardess in the ranks during one particular incident. He was quickly shunned by the Marine Corps, and institutionally prevented from any further access of their records.
To your point majrod, the Marine Corps has established its own standard. It is just finding it increasingly difficult to live up to that standard. It is revealing now that since 2008 the Marine Corps is de-emphasizing the term “Devil Dogs.” Do you think the exposition of that nickname as being a total fabrication has anything to do with that? And perhaps by extention, are attempting to preserve the record of their conduct in Belleau Wood? That record by the way, is becoming increasingly under assault by legitimate historians.
An institution that won’t allow historical examination of warts and all, has many, many warts to hide. And the Mrine Corps has built itself up so high, it has a long, long way to fall.
Mike;
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with correcting history especially when its hateful. There’s nothing wrong with holding a Marine or the Marine Corps responsible for stating or restating something libelous.
I complement your scholarship and well done research. The only thing I’m saying is when someone outside the Corps says something untrue its unfair to hold the Corps responsible.
As for correcting the record, official statements, publications etc. have a responsibility to correct the record. Should the USMC correct PBS? It’d be nice but I won’t hold them to standard for doing it (unless they are the source of misinformation). Is the Corps going to monitor all media? Do we do that in the Army?
I think you’ve already shown an OVERWHELMING amount willful misinformation to demonstrate a level of ill will towards the Army in Marine Corps culture. Quoting things beyond the Corps control is overkill. We can afford to be bigger men.
BTW, it would be helpful if you cited where the TRUE history is. It would equip us in helping correcting the record out there and maybe over time the Marines inclined to bash the Army might realize they’ll be called on it. And remember, I’m on your side.
Specify exactly what is beyond Marine Corps control.
There have been claims that Marines defended the Bataan. Is it beyond the control of the Marine Corps to say the Marines did not defend Bataan?
My experience has been, when I point out how Marines have distorted history to glamorize the Corps, I am subjected to a number of rather vulgar personal attacks.
MG Ralph Smith never personally attacked Holland Smith(except maybe for HM Smith’s claim about Col. Gardner Conroy). He maintained a great deal of dignity following the Smith versus Smith affair. Unfortunately his silence resulted in HM Smith’s allegations about the 27th ID being taken as gospel.
Only recently, in books likeHarry Gailey’s “Howling Mad Versus the Army, Francis O’Brien’s “Battling for Saipan” and Harold Goldberg’s “D Day in the Pacific: The Battle of Saipan”, has it become better known how valiantly the 27th ID did serve on Saipan. I add, these fairly recent books also show that HM Smith was not a particularly brilliant ground commander.
On the other hand we have “Semper Fi: The Definitive Illustrated History of the U.S. Marines” authored by two retired Marine Corps Colonels, published in 2010. Their account of Saipan is very simplistic: the two Marine Divisions advanced; the 27th ID did not; HM Smith was forced to relieve the commander of the 27th ID.
Marines are still trying to distort history, Someone should point out those distortions and ask why they occur.
Let this whole post die out. This guy claims he knows more about history than the huge preponderance of historians. Let him go boil in his own tiny and lonely teapot.
I know more about Marine Corps history than most Marines do. Most Marines believe, incorrectly, that Marines captured Chapultepec.
What do you know about Marine Corps History?
What historians, other than Marine Corps historians, claim that the Marines captured Chapultepec.
Mike;
Was trying to be helpful. Will use some of your research but the never ending Marine bashing hurts your message.
My bottom line is the Marines have a distinguished history. They should be able to make their point without disparaging the Army or taking credit for Army exploits.
Of all the sevice I believe the Marine Corps culture comes closest to the Army’s. I look upon the Corps as our closest brother and have several good Marine friends. Its a shame most Marines don’t feel the same way.
I am sorry you consider it Marine bashing. Marines bashing the Army is a much more common phenomenon.
I say again, the Marines’ distinguished history includes a lot of fabrication and embellishment.
One instance of embellishment is what the Marines claim about the Battle of Bladensburg(referrence to http://www.barneyfamily.org/docs/article_03.php).
The people who held off the British were a unit of sailors commanded by Joshua Barney. It was Commodore Barney’s sailors who impressed the British, not the company of marines who supported them.
“I am sorry you consider it Marine bashing. Marines bashing the Army is a much more common phenomenon.”
Mike;
I’m agreeing with you! What I’m saying is you never “throw them a bone” or use an occasional weaker point (like PBS inaccuracies are the Marines fault and their PAO office should correct the record) which is contestable. It allows those that don’t want to acknowledge the TRUTH behind your research to characterize you as a “hater”.
Trying to help you be as effective as possible. For way too long no one has contested the Marine PR Juggernaut. I’ve applauded your efforts and refrencing it so it can be confirmed. You are trying to bat 1000 and come across as less than likeable when 900 is good enough and sounding reasonable.
This will be my last response ref the issue as it seems you have to have the last word.
BTW, check out “Operation AL FAJR: A Study in Army and Marine Corps Joint Operations by Matt. M. Matthews. Its out of Leavenworth and does a very good job of bringing out the Army contribution to successfully taking Fallujah largely ignored in the Marine history. You might be able to use it.
My Last word to majrod(comment of 5 July 2011)
Thank you for your commentary. I have no more to say now.
I was in operation al fajr. The Army provided a valuable blocking force to the south, and a tank task force on the east. Team Tank was on the east side of the city clearing (to some extent) the industrial area.
The individual foot mobile Marines did all the heavy lifting, clearing, back clearing, and nearly all the dying.
With an obviously outrageous title for this thread, you’re obviously someone with some substantial issues that history won’t help.
By the way. Your intro piece has a factual error. Marines lost exactly 1 Marine at umm qasr. You said “heavy casuLties”.
Bill;
Not to contradict your perception, the article is worth reading and available on line for free. The commanders were quite complimentary of the Marines they helped. They did say that they could have done more but the Marines steadfastly refused to use them suffering more casualties than necessary. (Knocking a house down with 25mm, TOW and 120mm is helpful). Marine commanders repeatedly said they didn’t need them. The Army commanders attributed it to the marines being unfamiliar with mechanized forces in an urban terrain.
No doubt the Marines did the most bleeding at Fallujah as the Army has done in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last decade. May I recommend reading House to House by Bellavia (sp?). He recieved a silver star in the fight and the Army units lost a company commander, BN SGM attesting to the resistance in their sectors.
I am a Marine, every time i see the Army i feel sick because they are nasty and trully sad. They dont care about how they look or act. the sad thing is they take that same attitude with them to war.
THAT was productive and a great reflection on you personally. Its a good thing most soldiers understand that one individual idiot Marine doesn’t mean all Marines are idiots.
Hope the next Army MEDEVAC pilot doesn’t know how you feel. Then again it wouldn’t matter, he’d still save your life.
you low-life scum bag; 23 times as many army troops have died to keep your ignorant ass free than you have brain enough to cognate, Bow down you low life little usmc bitch!
Yeah that’s because your army training sucks and gets more of you killed. Plus there are more
Ed,
I doubt that you are a member of the United States Armed Forces at all given your attitude and lack of spelling and grammar skills. You obviously don’t care how moronic you sound.
Why don’t you take a look at the below listed site and see how your argument, “nasty and trully sad” stands up.
http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/
Congrats to Dakota Meyer, another American hero!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-present-medal-of-honor-to-marine-for-valorous-actions-in-afghanistan/2011/07/20/gIQAn93KQI_story.html
Guys, Marines are meant for small unit battles. They can be PART of a strike force. The United States Army is the best Army in the world. The Marine Corps is the greatest Corps in the world. Together they make one kick butt machine. I have a feeling that when I get to heaven that the streets will be guarded by United States Marines but will switch off duties with their brothers, the United States Soldiers. We are all brothers, united against defeating the enemies of democracy. The Marines uniforms are amazingly reverent and their history is rich as is the United States Army. When we go to battle, I don’t care who is covering my back a United States Soldier or a United States Marine. All I can say is they are my heroes and both put their life on the line for the greatest nation on earth, The United States of America.
Obviously a running dog yapping with an agenda. The author(s) of this piece had only one intention. And it obviously was to write a completely biased, one sided and idiotic depiction of one our armed services. Oh, by the way, while there were no Marines in the Revolutionary Army, perhaps if you had explained that Marines were assigned to ships, operated as both an infantry/security force and participated in several battles/operations your analysis might have suffered. (They were never a part of the Army so why should they have fought with it?) As it would in almost every depiction of the Marines and their operations that follow.
The Marine Corps Gazette, in 1921 admittedly, published an article claiming that 600 Continental Marines reinforced George Washington’s Army and were what made possible the victories of Trenton and Princeton. The Marine Corps Gazette is an official publication of the US Marine Corps. The claim was absolutely false.
The Continental Marines participated in only two ground campaigns during the Revolution, the Trenton-Princeton campaign and the Penobscot expedition. In neither campaign did they distinguish themselves.
It is fiction that the Marines were in the forefront of every American war. Much of what the Marines claim as their illustrious history is not history but fiction. Much of it is the Marines claiming credit for Army accomplishments, e.g. the victories of Trenton and Princeton.
Mike:
Thank you for your excellent scholarship in exposing the monstrous usmc fraud. Can you tell me how may Army troops have died in US service since the Army founded America? Can you give a break-down by service in actual numbers? I am certain from my research that US Army sacrifice is near 1000 times that the disgraceful usmc. We French helped a small bit but all intelligent persons recognize it is the US Army that is the greatest military force in world history.
All the best to you.
I was part of an Army battalion who went to relieve a Marine brigade, due to poor planing on the greater military party, because the replacement Brigade did not overlap with deployment times. We were supposed to be there 30-60 days.
Within our first 2 weeks of being there, we had installed new faith with the local population (they no longer ran off the streets when a US force drove by) and driven out local Ba’ath Party insurgents. We gathered enough support for our actions that we were left to control the area for 6 months, with one third the size unit the area should have had.
We were going to stay in the area for our whole 15 months deployment until we had been picked by General Petraeus to conduct air assault raids during the “surge”.
During the replacement we informed the incoming Marine unit that they would be losing vehicles due to the numbers of IED’s in the area and should plan on having a strong resupply planned for replacement vehicles and vehicle parts. His reply was that they would not loose vehicles, they’ll lose Marines.
Rivalry aside, this bothered me more than anything. These men joined to serve their country, our country, against it’s enemies. Not die needlessly to prove that a Marine is tough and to build their own PR.
More than anything, the valor, the history, and the prestige of the Marines is built on the deaths and needless endangerment of it’s men. Good men, who, like me, joined to serve their country, not build up the name of one branch or the other.
There are a lot of things wrong with both sides of this card. The Army has become soft, for the most part, but the infantry units, and other combat units, still strive hard to keep their units and men above the rest.
The Marines have become bull headed, and feel they always have something to prove, usually at great cost.
You do have to consider one thing though. When I talk with another service member from another branch, there is always some good spirited bashing back and forth, but there is always respect back and forth. Except for the Marines, who show no respect, and in turn, earn no respect.
You lose all credibility from the get go. A Marine brigade would never replace an Army battalion. A Marine Brigade is a task organized force. We don’t have standing brigades, like the Army has. The deployed brigade size is normally between 4K and 16K Marines and Sailors.
As such a Marine brigade would never ever replace an Army battalion (850-1000, even overstaffed like the Army likes to do things).
So you strike out in one pitch.
I met an Army medic who had been attached to Marines in Al Fajr. He said he was so glad to be put with Marines. He was confident that he’d be protected and he wouldn’t die from accidental discharges the way so many soldier do. Said those 3 weeks were the proudest moments of his 12 year career…and he was most proud when the Marines referred to his as doc, like they do our Corpsman.
Bill, you’re an imbicile.
“Overstaffed like the army likes to do thing?”
An army division is about 15,000 troops. A marine division is anywhere between 20,000-25,000 troops. An army regiment is about 3,5000. A marine regiment is about 5,000-6,000. An army battalion is about 900. A marine battalion is about 1,200-1,500. An army rifle squad is 9. A marine rifle squad is 12-15.
gDurant: Acccording to the Congressional Research Sevice 1,243,687 Americans have died in combat from the Revolution to Feb 2010. 1,107,239 were soldiers. 48,314 were Marines.
The numbers are not surprising given the USMC did not become a large land force until WWI. Even then, I believe there was just one brigade sent to Europe and it was assigned to an Army division. The USMC role in WWII and thereafter became much larger but still smaller than the other services. I was reading somewhere that more men died in combat in the 8th Air Force of the US Army Air Corps during bombing campaign against Germany than the total number of USMC combat deaths throughout the war. The role of the USMC in combat operations has increased since then and the margin has dropped. However, you will see more soldiers dying in battle than marines because of the overall numbers committed. It is unfortunate to see so many men and women dying. The costs of defending our nation and freedom are very high.
Dave – I don’t disagree. Casualties are always correlated to how many are committed to combat. Even today Army casualties run three times higher than Marine casualties (about the same correlation of forces) and MUCH higher when Marines were relatively rare in Afghanistan 2004 – 2008. Media coverage unfortunately is not evenly distributed nor is the credit. MANY more soldiers died in the Pacific than Marines but most would believe it was a Marine show.
All in all its good to bring up these stats as symbolic of the sacrifices each service has made for our nation. I’m just looking for some fairness beyond anecdotes and quotes.
Majrod: Your point on the media and perception issues are on point. Many are ignorant of the Army’s contribution in the Pacific for a number of reasons. The Marines have better PR, continuously tout their prowess, and have traditions that the Army has lacked since WWII ended. How many Army slogan, uniform, and organization changes have we seen?
Hollywood has also helped. I always will remember John Wayne in Sands of Iwo Jima and others. Amphibious landings also spark the imagination. However, I felt the recent Pacific series was terrible and portrayed the Marines in a poor and inaccurate way. Seems there has to be some agenda in modern films. The main characters have to be flawed, their bad sides outweighed by their commitment to diversity or the environment, etc. Even the “bad guys” can’t be bad. How many films that portrayed the German military (Das Boot, Stalingrad, etc.) included characters who were not really Nazis and thought Hitler was a fool. Hollywood can’t just tell the true story, even though actual history is usually a much more compelling account.
This issue is common elsewhere. Think about Europe in WWII and everyone points to the Airborne or the Rangers. Today, it is the Special Forces. Everyone one seems to forget that it is the line Soldier or Marine who wins battles and wars. Look at the casualty rates in Europe. Line divisions sustained more than the 82nd and 101st because line units were in almost continual operations while the Airborne was frequently inserted and pulled out when an operation ended.
great points
Hell, I used to want to be a Marine when I was a kid, I thought that they were the most bad ass out of all the branches, but than I started to realize many in the Corps have a very strong superiority complex over the other branches, and I decided that I did not want to be associated with a group that believes they are better than everybody. I learned that I could become equally a bad ass by joining the Army. When I went to MEPS there was this one kid who thought he was better than everybody else because he was going to the Marines, he wouldn’t shut up and had such a cocky attitude. What was even worse that day was that there was one kid who was going to join the Army, who started talking to one of the Marine recruiters there. He told the recruiter how he was thinking about joining the Marines but instead chose the Army.The recruiter than said in a very sarcastic tone “So you chose to join the Army become Army Strong, and Be all you can Be. If you want a real challenge join the Marines.” Neverless…this kid was giving himself a challenge by going Army Infantry and then Airborne School. Luckily I know this is not how all Marines act, but it’s usually the cherries and pogues who always have to express how they feel they are better than everybody because they are a Marine. One of my best friends is a Marine, who has been to Afghanistan and knows what combat is like. He has his usual jabs at the Army every once and a while but does not blatantly disrespect the Army like many young Marines do. The Marine Corp should be kept as a separate branch, but there needs to be a more common respect for each other rather than constantly putting each other down, because both the Army and Marines kick ass.
I have read a recent article on Iwo Jima, Worth the Cost? Justificaton of the Iwo Jima Invasion By Robert S. Burrell who wrote “Ghosts of Iwo Jima”. I read that the planners for Iwo Jima expected that taking the Island would take three days, two days to break the Japanese resistance and one day to mop up. The belief was, the combination of naval gun fire, air support and thousands of battle tested Marines would prove irresistible.
The same was applied earlier in the Pacific War. Planners of the Betio invasion expected that the Marines would easily take Betio. HM Smith expected the Marines would take Saipan and Guam both before the end of June of 1944. Planners of the Peleliu invasion thought it would take 3 to 4 days to break Japanese resistance. In each of those cases, the battle lasted much longer than the Marine planners expected and cost more casualties, dead and wounded than expected.
Professor Harry Gailey briefly touched on this in his book, “Peleliu 1944”. Marines, especially Marine leaders, believed that the Marine Corps had this intrinsic superiority that would awe any particular foe and break his resistance. It lead to very costly battles in terms of lives. What I can not understand why the Marines planned Iwo Jima this way after three previous campaigns in which this strategy did not work.
This rather inappropriate assumption of superiority on the part of Marines led to rather profuse bloodshed.
Gents,
Firstly, I was a Marine Infantryman (LAR) in the opening phases of OEF, and later an Army Cav Scout a few years after. I have seen both sides, so I probably have a little better understanding of the argument.
Firstly, Marines brag, that’s what we do. Some is based on reality, some based on mystique and ‘indoc’. I will be the first to admit, theres tons of legends about the Corps which are false, or falsly reported. Some is to blame on Marines, other parts on Marine ‘nutswingers’. That said, The Marine Corps down to the individual is very locked on, and very good at what he/she does.
The Marines will always have a slight leg up on the Army based simply on basic training being equal accross the board for all Marines. The Army waters down training to the POG’s, which it should not do. That said, the Marines have just as many of these POG’s…theyre called ‘Sailors’. Marines refuse to admit it, but Marines are simply the ground combat side of the Navy. The Navy, as large as it it, takes care of the majority of admin duties for the Marines. This is where the ‘nasty army’ talk stems from.
The Army could learn a LOT from the Marines. That said, the Marines could learn a LOT from the Army. The 13 weeks of Marine boot camp are intense, but let’s face it, most of it is fluff. The last 3rd of it gets real, and later SOI is the real training. The Army (at least in the combat arms side) does away with a few weeks of basic by eliminating the several hours/days/weeks of D&C, learning that Archibald Henderson banged a 17 year old (Dirty, er, GRAND old Man of the Corps), etc etc. Tha Marines wish to keep the tradition, and so I can understand retaining the D&C and heritage. I think the Army could use more of it, personaly. However, the Corps can also learn to lean some of it out and focus on fighting skills. (Also, Soldiers at OSUT are trained by NCO’s of that MOS….Infantry training INfantry, not air wingers and motor T heroes training potential 03’s).
As much as I enjoyed the intillment of Marine history and lore, even as a young boot, I could see how much slant there was to it. I ask any Devil Dogs reading this to dust off their green monster and look up the history section. WW2 was an all marine affair, no Nazis ever existed, etc etc. Later, read about Marines who parachuted into Panama (?), and Marine AC-130’s who supported them….
As for Fallujah, there is a lot more to the story. The rumors I see here of the 82cd ‘refusing to patrol’ is false. In fact, it was the 82cd’s aggressive tactics which the Marines claimed caused the insurgency within Fallujah. At the handover in early 04, the marines openly pointed fingers at the Army, and said they knew better how to fight ‘small wars’. They tried a different approach, which later led to the creation of the ‘Fallujah Brigade’….armed and trained by mrines, left to patrol the city…and later turned out to be the core of the insurgency. A COMBINED Marine/Army team later routed it. Both sides played an equal and significant role in doing so.
Another common complaint from Marines is the lack of skill of Air Force CAS. Well, where are the 18’s? I feel strongly, the first step, should be the elimination of multi-role fighters from Marine Air Wings. Marine Air should be dedicated to supporting the GCE, not being the jack of all trades master of none it is now. The argument of ‘we get the scraps from the Navy and army’ is only partially correct. The Corps chooses to retain expensive fighter aircraft and has not shot down a plane in 50 years), and continues to do so with the future F-35. But how many more tanks and fighting vehicles, new rifles and machine guns (our bread and butter) could be purchased by not purchasing more and more Phib’s? I promise you the Army has nothing in the inventory equal in cost to one LHA/LPD etc. And we continue to buy more so we can take a beach…how often does that occur?
The Marine Corps should remain as is. The authors suggestion of merging the two branches is lame. SWhy not merge the Airborne and Armor branches then? Marines are light, forward deployable, and very good at rapid deployment for follow on forces. The Army light structures CAN do the same, but Marines are slightly better based on their combined arms set-up. That said, the Army is far better equipped/trained for large scale operations. In short, both have unique purposes. Either COULD do what the latter does, but as we stand today, why?
Lastly, all Soldiers should recognize what the Marines have done and are doing. That said, all Marines need a reality check and do the same. Both have shit the bed, both have made history. The Navy adn Air Force are in the same boat.
Hey man thanks for your service to our country and god bless you. You definently know what your talking about and seem to be one of the very few people on this website that is able to bring your opinion to the conversation without a personal bias. I agree that both the Army and Marines can learn many crucial things from each other, but the problem is that their egos will never let them. Hopefully one day their will not be so much of a rivalry between the Army and Marines and each branch will realize that it is much more productive to work together rather than fight among each other on who is better than the other.
MOTO – Good post. Agree with most of what you said. The services definitely have their own capabilities and traditions and should be maintained as two separate forces.
Minor correction Army Infantry basic is completely done by 11 series just like the tankers/scouts only have 19 series drill sgt’s. The rest, well the Army does have a problem instilling a warrior ethos across the force.
Both branches can learn from each other and I think do. FET’s though claimed by the Marines were started by the Army and in fact the Army lent female soldiers to the Marines as they stood up the program.
I would also state that the Marines are primarily responsible for fueling the current rivalry. Talk with most Marines long enough and the inferiority complex comes out. There’s no reason for it. The Marines have much to be proud of it just seems that most of their self avowed accolades have to do with trying to diminish the Army.
This article goes far in busting the myths and outright lies.
The latest posts are well-considered and fair, much different from earlier ones. I don’t have much to add but would like to address a bit of myth with Basic Training.
I’ve heard the argument several times that the longer Marine Basic Training is superior to the shorter Army Basic Training and that translates into super combat skill or performance. This argument greatly overstates the reality and worth of basic training.
Basic training is just that, basic. It is an introduction to the military and an immersion into common duties and tasks. Combat-related skills are taught and certainly longer training provides more knowledge and exposure. However, basic training is still rudimentary at best, longer or shorter.
The first real step toward combat proficiency comes afterwards with MOS-specific training where focus and repetition instill skills. Even then, the new Marine or Soldier is still lacking to a large degree.
I was an Artillery Officer in the Army (Battery XO) so will share my experience from that perspective. It took weeks of field training for new Soldiers (after basic and MOS training) to get up to speed on their jobs and their role in unit operations. The greatest proficiency came after Soldiers began to work with their cannon crew members directly and learn from experienced NCO’s. Unit cohesiveness, familiarity, and repetitive training forged them further.
I am so glad we learned from the Vietnam War where new Soldiers and Marines were simply fed in as replacements. They had little opportunity to learn and be proficient. Basic and MOS training were not enough. Gladly, it appears we have departed from this practice and now rotate whole units into and out of war zones. New personnel are assigned, assimilated into units, and have an opportunity to train before being deployed into a combat zone. My son, an Army Tanker, trained for four months with his unit before being deployed to Iraq. Even then, his battalion was not initially posted to a “hot zone” and had several weeks of training operations in the theater beforehand.
One issue which is discussed on the web is Marines not serving in the ETO in WWII. The Marine explanation, in a few words, is that Army jealousy of the Marines kept the Marines out of the ETO.
I have been reading “Master of Seapower”, a biography of Admiral Ernest King. In WWII, the Marine Corps was subordinate to the Navy. Ernest King controlled where the Marines were deployed. George Marshall, while functioning as a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not have the authority of a today’s JCS Chairman. He could not order Admiral King to make King’s Marines available for the ETO.
In spite of the Germany first strategy, Admiral King was determined to go on the offensive in the Pacific using his assets, including his Marines. By the time of Operation Torch, 1st, 2nd and 3rd Marines were all committed to the Pacific offensive which started at Guadalcanal.
Planning for Overlord began in 1943. In 1943, the 4th Marine Division was organizing. 2nd, 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions were all committed to the Central Pacific offensive while Overlord was being planned. The Marines at that time did not have the capability of organizing additional divisions for Overlord. If the Marines were to participate in Overlord, the Divisions would have come from the Pacific. Taking Marine Divisions from the Pacific would have meant the Central Pacific offensive would have had to be put on hold. Admiral King would have never countenanced that.
The largest, most complex amphibious assaults of the War happened in the ETO and in the Mediterranean. Marines were not involved because Admiral King kept his Marines for the smaller offensives in the Pacific. He would not release them for the ETO.
This Marine explanation is another example of Marines distorting history to glorify the Marines, nothing more.
Marines have distorted history when it comes to the War of 1812.
At this web page, http://cramberry.net/sets/3925-marine-corps-history-significant-battles, what is claimed is:
“Battle of New Orleans In January of 1815, Marines under the command of General Andrew Jackson soundly defeated British Forces that were attacking the city of New Orleans. The British lost approximately 2,000 men while American losses were less than 100.”
Andrew Jackson had between 4000 and 5000 men on line at the Battle of New Orleans. The number of Marines was 58. Marines played a very small role in defeating the British at New Orleans. They may as well not have been there at all. We have this Marine Friendly web site trying to credit the victory exclusively to the Marines. If this is not an attempt on the part of Marine admirers to claim credit for the Marines which the Army accomplished, I don’t know what it is.
The Marine account of Bladensburg is that the fighting qualities of the Marines so impressed the British that they refrained from burning the Marine Barracks and/or the Marine Commandant’s house out of respect. According to “Commodore Barney at the Bladensburg Races”, an article published in US Naval Institute Proceedings, the dialogue between Commodore Barney and the British leaders, MG Robert Ross and Admiral George Cockburn was this:
“Admiral Cockburn and General Ross soon came upon Barney where he had fallen. The two exchanged kind words with the commodore, inquiring after his wound. “I am really very glad to see you, Commodore,” General Ross said at last.
“I am sorry I can not return the compliment, General,” said Barney.
Ross smiled and turned to Cockburn. “I told you it was the FLOTILLA MEN(emphasis added).”
“Yes,” Cockburn said, “you were right, though I could not believe you—they[the flotilla men] have given us the only fighting we have had.”
The British leaders never specifically mentioned the Marines. The people they complimented after Bladensburg were Joshua Barney’s sailors.
I say again, much of what the Marines claim as their history is fiction, not history.
so then why were they not burned the barracks and Commodore’s house.
Why didn’t they burn the barracks or Commodore’s home? DUH!!! Why would they? The Brits already burned the White House down. They had made their point.
The hubris of Marines and their fans knows no limits. Your comments are like a taking credit for D-Day because there were Marines on some of the ships or some dimwit that claimed the Marines led the landings in Africa and captured an airfield when a detachment of Marines landed a day after the area was secured.
“Good Grief”, said Charlie Brown with a facepalm.
Hate to burst your bubble, but of all the numerous contingents present on the New Orleans battlefield, only TWO were smaller (as they were back then) Regular Army regiments, along with a detachment of the 1st US Dragoons (held in Reserve along with a militia unit). The vast majority of the American force consisted of formal state militia units, informal (back woodsmen / frontier men) militias, combined with pirates (mainly used as cannon gunners on cannon wrestled thru the swamp from Lafitte’s own pirate navy FLEET ships) and an ad hoc unit of black slaves who had escaped from British controlled areas and thrown on the line after just a couple weeks training!
Just another example of the Army taking credit for the accomplishments of others!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_American_order_of_battle
Note references… Which I note are extremely rare on this site – especially amongst the fanatical, vicious Marine hating posters!
Another issue with Marines is that General MacArthur left the Philippines, he did not recommend the 4th Marine Regiment for a Presidential Unit Citation. He had recommended Army Units. Marines ascribe this to General MacArthur’s dislike of the Marines.
The Army Units which General MacArthur recommended were fighting this heroic, desperate battle against the Japanese on Bataan. They had achieved a significant strategic result of throwing the Japanese timetable off balance. The Japanese expected to secure the Philippines in 50 days. Although they were short of food, ammunition, medical supplies, the Soldiers resisted for 4 months and did not surrender until they were almost out of ammunition, suffering from malnutrition and from disease.
When the 4th Marines arrived in the Philippines in December 1941, they were understrength(2 Battalions, 800 men) and had just spent 17 years on garrison duty in Shanghai, by all accounts not a tough assignment for most of that time. When they arrived in the Philippines, General MacArthur assigned them to the defense of Corregidor, not because he thought they were his best troops and he wanted them guarding his headquarters but because he did not think they would be effective ground combat troops. The 4th Marine Regiment remained on Corregidor while the Soldiers defended Bataan.
That might have had a great deal with General MacArthur’s reluctance to recommend them for a PUC.
I think a lot of Marines believe, mistakenly, that the 4th Marines did fight on Bataan. According to the account in Marine Colonel Robert D. Heinl’s “Soldiers of the Sea”, the 4th Marines did not.
“We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff
during the assault on Grenada, 1983”
Personally, I doubt that General Vessey ever said that. The Army does not field regiments as tactical units. General Vessey, an Army General, would know that.
The force that invaded Grenada was about 7000 men. Judging from the size of an Army Regiment in WWII and Korea, 3 regiments would be 10000 troops.
Looks like more Marine advertisement…lol… ^
Looks like a smartass… oorah… ^
I like that the Army always feels the need to tell everyone how they are underrated and just as good as the Corps. Marines just assume they are the best and public opinion seems to follow (including the enemies) That’s the Corps’ greatest asset, its reputation for ferocity.
Is that the repute the impident USMC had when they were blown up in disgrace in Beirut by Hesballah in 1983 and defeated in many battles in Iraq? You are a moron and need to pull your head out. Immediately stop your propagandist support of the disgraceful and insignificant usmc as has been innumerated above.
I treated casualties of the Beirut Bombing. In spite of my statements with regard to the Army versus Marine Corps, I say it is unfair to call it a disgrace that the Marines were blown up in Beirut, except maybe for the star level leaders who imposed the rules of engagement on the Marines which left them unready for the bombing.
It is wrong to call the defense of Bataan a disgrace to the Army. it is just as wrong to call Beirut a disgrace to the Marine Corps.
To my last reply I add, a number of Marines came through the Beirut bombing and continued to serve in the Armed Forces. I remember a number of Army Reservists called up with the Hospital Unit with which I served in the Gulf War of 1990-1991. The situation was not strenuous and minimally dangerous. A number of those Army reservists were grumbling that they had not signed up for that kind of duty and were going to resign the first opportunity they got.
durant – You’re losing it dude. Getting blown up isn’t disgraceful. You realize how many troops have been killed though no fault of their own? You’re also out of line in calling the Corps disgraceful or insignificant.
Just want to be sure as an Army vet I separate myself from those comments. I have a great deal of respect for the Corps despite the off the chain boasting of some Marines or the twisted history you’ve documented.
That last post was over the top and as an Army officer can admit when my service makes mistakes as the ROE was in Beruit. That doesn’t reflect on the Army as a whole or the soldier individually. Be specific or be correctly labelled and marginalized as a Marine hater.
First of all we didn’t lose any battles in iraq… Name one. Secondly all I have to say is Jessica lynch. Who went to go save their army asses. Not SF, not soldiers, but marines or and how many soldiers have been capture compared to marines in Iraq? And let’s not forget I’ve personnaly have seen soldiers run as marines advance. We have an ego because we earn it.
If any other service member wants to join the corps the have to go through boot camp. But if a marine goes to any other service they usually get promoted and a bonus. Who is at the white house and every US embassy throughout the world? Marines, yeah with 1/3 of the men. There is a reason why we are there and not soldiers.
The marines in Beirut had no ammunition in their rifles. Plus, they blew up a barracks, it wasn’t like they defeated them in combat.
Agreed with mike. The defense of Bataan was brave. The army was cut off and overrun, yet they held out for months. That was not disgraceful. In fact, they should be commended for that.
James – The Army doesn’t go around extolling its accomplishments or history. It truly is an egalitarian and humble organization. In contrast this thread is full of marines keeping track of anecdotes and quotes attesting to the superiority of the Corps. That smacks of an underlying inferiority complex. The overwhelming majority of this thread hasn’t been attacking the Corps but its tendency to exagerate or take license with the truth.
The Corps does have a great reputation. Public polls consider it the most prestigious branch. The Army is considered the most important. Hmmmmm, so much for public opinion?
Reputations are great and I’m glad Marines “assume” they’re the best. Most of us know that saying about “assume”…
BTW, I’m no enemy of the Corps and you shouldn’t consider everyone that disagrees with the . I have a great deal of respect for my fellow service. I just don’t buy the propaganda and am just as proud of my branch and its “longer” and more illustrious history. 🙂
What was the purpose of writing this article?
It reads like a bad episode of the “Brady Bunch”.
I can see it now, here is a guy who didn’t get accepted into the Marine Corps, so now he hates them so much he starts sounding like Jan Brady.
“Marcia, Marcia, Marcia…”
The article identifies many myths claimed as marine accomplishments. It tells a story of organizational hubris and self promotion. You haven’t refuted one fact. The Marines had good reason in ’48 (60+ yrs ago) to fear for their existence. Since then they’ve overcompensated. I’m a true blue retired Army infantry officer. I’d never go as far as disband the USMC. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Corps as a whole and for marines individually but many Marines go out of their way to treat my service with disrespect.
I don’t condone some of the off the wall comments made about Marines in this thread and commented so but there is also a very unhealthy relationship between the Army and the Marines and since Korea USMC culture has embraced it.
That alone is a good reason to write the article.
I’d be interested if anyone can correct any factual inaccuracies made by the author as to claims of Marine Corps feats that actually are untrue. Haven’t seen anyone do that yet.
I think that if he isn’t the infamous Marine hating “Mike Sparks” (google name for his weird articles and very viciously slanted anti Marine rants), then he has been highly influenced by him… Either that or thrasher man or durant or one of the other fanatical posters is actually Mike Sparks (he loves posting and doing reviews under aliases)
I will right away take hold of your rss feed as I can not in finding your e-mail subscription hyperlink or newsletter service. Do you’ve any? Please let me know in order that I could subscribe. Thanks.
-Fallujah NOV 2004. Task Force 2-2 Entered the City FIRST. Thats right, the U.S. Army cleared a Hole to get into Fallujah. And if any Marine on here denies it than they simply are Lieing, and were NOT there. Soldiers of 1st Infantry Division, and 1st Cavalry entered that city first…and created a strong hold. Marines followed behind and helped clear the city. That is the simple fact.
Now, the worst city in Iraq was NOT in Fact Fallujah, It WAS IN FACT Mosul, which recieved HALF the Attention, due to the Blackwater Contractors that were killed and hung up. Mosul was Completly over ran by insurgent when “Deuce Four” 2/4 showed up, SBCT. No Marines were there, and the SBCT did not half to pull Out of the City and surround it like Moron’s, like the USMC did in Fallujah. Despite being attacked Heavily everyday with IED’s, VBIEDS, and Small Arm’s Daily.
My Last point, 187 Infantry 101st ABN was the first conventional ground unit to hit combat in Afghan, No Marines were there. For any Marine to deny that is simply a Lie. Operation Anaconda, LOOK IT UP JARHEADS. YOU WERNT THERE! You arnt first to fight, you arnt first to Baghdad, You wernt First into Fallujah in Nov 04′. YOU never went to Mosul, YOU did not take Tal Afar. You called for help like squealing pig’s in Najaf, and 1st Cav had to come down & clear that shit up. You didnt Quell Sadr City, Shit? What the hell have you done? Those are all fact’s gentleman. Please look them up before you spit propaganda. Those are FACTS!
Yes I am a Grunt, and a Drill Sergeant. 8 Years Active Duty- Yes Ive been there, ive done all there is to do. And If you think you are better trained than our unit’s. I’ll put our Bradley’s & Dismount’s up against those Stupid ass AMTRAK amphibious things that dont even have a main gun, or your LAV’s…Those would get demolished by a TOW missle or 25mm so quick. Thats why we took Baghdad, Thats why you idiots were bogged down & Pinned down. Fox 1-3 OUT!
Your comments are spot on as I witnessed all phases of the usmc defeat and the subsequent us army victories there as a NATO correspondent. Bravo in putting forth the truth about the fraudulent and criminal usmc!
Thank you. I respect all Infantry, as an Infantryman Myself I know how tough of a life being a Grunt really is. Its not all hollywood. Any Grunt knows that.
Task Force 2-2 Was the First Into Fallujah, That is a FACT. They were Specifically requested from the USMC ground commander to come over, due to the Superb job they did in coming down to Najaf. Sadr City, did we pull out of there and surround it like the USMC did?? NOO.
MOSUL – Did we get pushed out of that city and have to Surround it, and Go back in and Re-Take it. NO. MOSUL WAS the Worst city in Iraq, Worse than Fallujah. The SBCT & follow on Units did a SUPERB JOB in quelling that city, without being FORCED out.
Aadhamiya Baghdad, again one of the Worst Neighborhoods in Iraq, Where I was at with 11th ACR 2005. Recieved no media attention. There are so many small battles and cities that we controlled it makes me sick to hear this crap from these Jarheads about Fallujah. THE BLACKWATER contractors garnered so much Hype.
NEWS FLASH MARINES- YOU WERNT FIRST INTO FALLUJAH, TASK FORCE 2-2 U.S. ARMY WAS! ANY MARINE THAT WAS THERE WHO IS NOT A BOLD FACED LIER WILL ATTEST TO THAT!.
Now, we all know the first unit aside Delta/Ranger/Seals/CIA to see combat was 187 Infantry, 101st ABN. Also there was a small amount of 10th MTN.
NEWS FLASH AGAIN, JAR HEADS. -OPERATION ANACONDA – YOU WERNT THERE…..THAT WAS THE FIRST UNIT TO “FIGHT”, a claim which you make all the time.
Any Jarhead with the amount of integrity left in his body that it takes to admit they were NOT first into Fallujah in Nov 04’…Were Not first into Assghanistan, NEVER WENT TO MOSUL – THE WORST CITY IN IRAQ.
Hell, Lets talk about Desert Storm. The unit that went farthest North actually INTO Iraq was 187 Infantry, 101st ABN. Who Air Assaulted across the border. I mean, come on.
I’ll beat your drill Sergeant ass.
You weren’t in fallujah cause it wasn’t the 1st Calvary it was 2nd.
Located approximately forty miles west of Baghdad, Fallujah was effectively surrounded by US forces by October 14. Establishing checkpoints, they sought to ensure that no insurgents were able to escape the city. Civilians were encouraged to leave to prevent being caught in the coming battle and an estimated 70-90% of the city’s 300,000 citizens departed. During this time, it was clear that an assault on the city was imminent and the insurgents prepared a variety of defenses and strong points. The attack on the city was assigned to the I Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF).
With the city cordoned off, efforts were made to suggest that the Coalition attack would come from the south and southeast as had occurred in April. Instead, I MEF intended to assault the city from the north across its entire breadth. On November 6, Regimental Combat Team 1, consisting of the 3rd Battalion/1st Marines, 3rd Battalion/5th Marines, and the US Army’s 2nd Battalion/7th Cavalry, moved into position to assault the western half of Fallujah from the north.
They were joined by Regimental Combat Team 7, made up of the 1st Battalion/8th Marines, 1st Battalion/3th Marines, and the US Army’s 2nd Battalion/2nd Infantry which would attack the eastern part of the city. These units were joined by Iraqi troops as well. With Fallujah sealed, operations began on at 7:00 PM on November 7, when Task Force Wolfpack moved to take objectives on the west bank of the Euphrates River opposite Fallujah. While Iraqi commandoes captured Fallujah General Hospital, Marines secured the two bridges over the river to cut off any enemy retreat from the city.
A similar blocking mission was undertaken by the British Black Watch Regiment south and east of Fallujah. The next evening, RCT-1 and RCT-7, backed by air and artillery strikes commenced their attack into the city. Using Army armor to disrupt the insurgent’s defenses, the Marines were able to effectively attack enemy positions, including the main train station. Though engaged in fierce urban combat, Coalition troops were able to reach Highway 10, which bisected the city, by the evening of November 9. The eastern end of the road was secured the next day, opening a direct supply line to Baghdad.
So since you weren’t there shut your hooah ass up and stop making shit up. It was coalition forces led by 1st MEF.
Thank you for a detailed, historically TRUE accounting of this battle. Very refreshing as compared to the psychotic, venomous post (full of falsehoods, twisted “facts”, and an unbelievable hatred) by those such as durant, thrasherman, and a couple of others who are clearly psychotic patholic liars in desperate need of psychological help!
Fid you just copy and paste that? (You dod. Dont bother answering, I was being rhetorical).
The ACR guy above is right. You arent. 2/2 Inf and 2/7 Cav were part of both RCT’s when they breached. And they were there as a request by the MEF
Seriously dude, if you werent there, dont cite wikipedia and play it off like you were
USMC 0313
After reading the article and the comments, I could not leave without addressing the issues…
As a former Marine (both enlisted and officer) and well read on our Corp’s illustrious history, my response to much of the tendentious detail pointed at discrediting this history through its exposure of embellishment is the time honored Sea Service response…
No shit!!
Of course it’s embellished, in some cases the facts may have even been rearranged to reflect a different outcome! Obviously the idiot savant author despite his service in the Navy has never heard a sea story before. I doubt if the young lad has ever left the pier much less been shipboard, otherwise he would have known straight away after any decent research that the lily has possibly been gilded in some instances. To think a history written by a Marine might be shown in a favorable light to the advantage of the Marine Corps should not leave one incredulous.
I would submit that we tread carefully by labelling some of these examples as lies. Never an outright lie (that would be disrespectful to refer to any of our shipmates as liars!) but stirring and heroic deeds to inspire the young Devil Dogs to go in harms way in various climes and on distant shores as their predecessors have done. Smedley Butler, Herman Hanneken, Dan Daly, Chesty Puller, John A. Lejuene, John Basilone, Dakota Myer…such tales, such accomplishments!!
Who has not sat spellbound at the boots of some grizzled veteran (Soldier or Marine) and heard these sacred words:
“No shit, there we were…” SImply spellbinding.
Now, I dearly love the Marine Corps and an early observation by one of my Army brethern clearly points out the tendency of a Marine to wax poetic about the glories and abilities of himself and his fellow Marines. Some would characterize this as abrassive, nay boorish.
I concede the point.
We were not recruited for our mastery of the language, but the mastery of our craft and talent in bending the enemy to our will through direct and violent means. It is a minor vice that should accepted as a part of who we are. I can only apologize for behavior that will never change in the same manner that Marines will be forever required to master such arcane knowledge as Archibald Henderson, sword drill and the mysterious contents of the Base flagpole truck.
You say we lack respect, that we feel inferior and must over compensate. Oh that we were that sophisticated and operated on such a subtle level. The truth is we are simple creatures. Focused on our tiny band’s mission to the exclusion of the delicate feelings of our sister services.
You say that we don’t include you in any of our stories…well of course not. We’re really not paying any attention to you. As I have said, we are focused on ourselves. We are tiny service and we gaze in awe at your Homeric disorganization, chaos, activity and patches, tabs and badges. Stupefying to the point of hypnosis!
Deep down though, we really like you all (Army, Navy Airforce, Coast Guard, Reserves, National Guard.) Why I myself hold the Army, Navy and Air Force in the greatest esteem just from the enormous amount of materials and equipment that you have provided for myself and my fellow Marines at numerous installations and only noted by the many empty spaces that mysteriously manifested themselves all over your facilities whenever we were in proximity. Such magnanimity and unselfish support. Of course nothing can be proved that we were ever there.
Remember, you can choose your friends, but you can’t choose your family. And we are family!
We might not have the flair and elan of our beret topped special forces, and airborne prodigies. You would be right, we are a more practical soberly dressed bunch. Not given over to the fashions of the moment. We are a traditional and hidebound group that has not let progress interrupt tradition no matter how ill found it may be (the blood stripe, the quatrefoil, the eagle, globe and anchor) A note about Chapultapec, I have never claimed to have taken the fort. Marines were there, shots were fired, but no charges were brought. I can safely say all ended well. Much the same with Belleau Wood, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Korea, Khe Sahn…you get the picture.
(As a side note, I am surprised that no one has dredged up Gooch’s Marines of the 1740s, but I digress…)
We have not the technology and latest advanced machinery of our mechanically oriented teamates of the Navy and Air Force. Rugged, basic tools designed for mayhem and chaos are our implements. We prefer simple operation and endeavor to be models of efficiency AND effectiveness without being spendthrifts.
I feel the anguish and discomfort of the Soldiers’ comments at the slights and disrespect that they feel they have faced over the historical record of the Army’s accomlishments. The response from fellow Marines must only serve as further torment and for this I am truly sorry. For I tell you this as a Marine who has also read your history, yours story is rich! Revel in that!
Our Marine Captains and Sergeants in history are an eccentric bunch with colorful backgrounds and not fully accepted in polite society. That is how we prefer it. That is why we joined. We like a fight! Not the massive Napoleanic brawl on the gloabal strategic scale, but the small vicious, intimate dust up that only our best friends and best enemies get invited to.
You my respected Soldiers are our Nation’s Army! Be proud of the legion of generals that you’ve provided!
Washington
Grant
Sherman
Sheridan
Pershing
MacArthur
Marshall
Eisenhour
Patton
Ridgeway
Schwarzkopf
Petreaus
How can you not read that list and say, “These are MY guys!!” Tell your story and tell it your way!! The details aren’t as important as the intent.
For the young and old veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who have commented on this site, Soldier, Sailor, Airmen or Marine…you have done us proud in what was the toughest and dirtiest damn fight to come down the pike in the longest time. You have honorably added to our story. I am humbled by your sacrifice.
As for this Durant fellow…surely Sir you are still grieving for your beloved France falling so short to Germans and so quickly in that tragic summer of 1940. The latent bitterness has clouded you judgment in weighing in on a discussion of which you have nothing to offer but ill considered opinions, and half-truths. Leave this discussion to the professionals and those who have an actual and active interest.
90% of Marine NCO’s were killed in Chapultapec that is how we earn the blood strip on our uniforms when we become NCO’s it is to remember them. How thoughtless and disrespectful. You are totally uneducated on the pacific war. It was McAuthor who chose the Marines for the korea landing, because the Army was getting hammered down south. It was Army General Bunker that relieved 22 regiment/division whatever they are called. They could not advance. Bunker replaced them with the 6th Marines mission accomplished.
Great post Simple Marine, great post. Well said. A Marine with intelligence, and even literate. Who knew!
But you should explain to some of your boys its not the braggadocio which chaffs, not even the embelishments. It’s just that it’s so unseemly to disparage war dead and wounded of another service. It’s just in so very poor taste, it’s impolite, dare I say…uncouth.
P.S. could you please add Jim Gavin to that list? And maybe even Terry Allen. Two superstars who had the spine to pay the ultimate professional price.
Thanks, you’re almost wittily literate enough to restore my faith in the present day version of your Marine Corps.
Simple Marine – great response. I think your lighthearted monologue explains much and I hope it quells some of the viciousness coming from both sides.
Unfortunately I have to differ on one point that you overlooked. MANY Marines especially the young, those that served only a couple of years and others that never grew up to learn to question everything they read/hear actually believe everything they’ve been told. They actually believe the vile things they say about their fellow services and while I can forgive them being proud and believing their service is better I won’t accept their crap. I wouldn’t expect a Marine to if the situation was reversed.
There are things one doesn’t even say to one’s brother. Too many Marines routinely cross that line and its not helpful to either service or the nation we love.
I accept your apology gracefully. Be happy to buy you a beer. I can only pray your brethren read a little before they start talking.
Majrod
I appreciate the feedback. Our Marines tend to operate from a position of supreme self-confidence which as you know in battle is a valuable thing. No apologies for this. I would rather have a Marine who thinks he’s the modern day Achilles to the point of offending others rather than the doubting Hamlet that I see so often in the civilian world and the other Services. The difference is in youth, the Marine’s confidence springs from his accomplishment of joining our august organization and its history, accomplishments and traditions which we have in spades despite what the author may say. In maturity and age the confidence of the Marine comes from experience and service.
This disparagement and disrespect is not a one way street. Even I have been on the receiving end of numerous insults from my fellow Soldiers and have given as good as I got while letting it roll off my insult proof back. That is because I know what I and my Marine Corps are about. Unfortunately to the uninitiated we are a puzzling organization, and the assertion of the author and several commenters that the Marine Corps is a second Army shows this misunderstanding.
“The United states has two armies. Today we take this for granted, and don’t question the reasons for funding both the United States Army, and the United states Marine Corps. But it wasn’t always this way.”
To the amateur eye we have two organizations that have infantry, artillery and tanks thus they are the same and so there must be duplication of effort. The purpose for both organizations is distinctly different, but here is where the author’s real argument lays hidden: military funding and the scrutiny of that funding. Unfortunately for the reader the proof and support for this argument lacks no substance. The few instances provided are so paltry, selective and ineffectual. Had I taken the opposite tack and argued for the disbanding of the Army I could have taken the same approach (although I would have left out the embellishment of deeds charge because we do tell a better story!) So much is taken out of context historically.
If the Marine Corps have done such a horrible job over the years why do we keep sending them regardless of the purpose of the mission? Why does the public perceive this organization in such a favorable light? There is no amount of branding and publicity that will overcome a bad product or poor performance. Surely there must be something there that works.
“There were no Marines in the Continental Army that won the Revolutionary War. During the Civil War, Congress authorized less than 3,200 men for the Marine Corps, this while the Union Armies totaled nearly one million men. The fact is, for most of their history the United States Marine Corps was little more than a security force for the Navy.”
There were Marines in the American Revolution. I personally have never read nor heard any assertions from my fellow Marines that the Marines were THE pivotal force in our gaining independence or in single-handedly defeating the British. The same goes for the Civil War. At the time the Marine Corps, like the Army lost a significant number of officers and NCOs to the confederacy. The structure and function of the Marine Corps up to the 1900s would be typical of the ship based marine units in other navies of the western powers. Let’s go to the 1900s shall we.
“The myth of the Marine Corps as a second army began in WW I. When the United states entered the war in 1917, over two million U.S. Army soldiers were deployed to France along with one brigade of marines, about ten thousand strong. Despite being a tiny fraction of the American forces fighting in WW I, the Marines managed to make a name for themselves at the U.S. Army’s expense.”
This chimerical myth the author keeps referring to is one perpetrated not by the Marines, but by those inimical to the organization’s existence. The United States didn’t start out with two million soldiers. In fact, at the outbreak of war we were ranked very low worldwide, somewhere in the region with Portugal as a military power. Given the state of our military and the urgent need for troops it only stood to reason to make use of all of our military capability regardless of the branch’s mission and doctrine. We had just completed a difficult expedition into Mexico under General Pershing that was inconclusive and exposed many shortcomings in the Army’s planning, logistics and operations and our Army had a long way to go in mobilizing from a very small peacetime organization to a large one that numbered in the hundreds of thousands.
The author makes the point that despite being a small overall percentage of the US forces committed to war in France that the Marines were recognized for their efforts over and above the actions of the Army. Way to go Marine Corps! Good job on standing out in a crowded field. The record shows that the Marines and the Army were victims of good press. The Army was very upset that the Marines didn’t try more to correct that perception. I assert this was sour grapes and the Marines had no incentive to do so based on the treatment by General Pershing and the Army establishment prior to Belleau Wood. As much was done to prevent them getting into combat as was done to get them into combat. A sad state of affairs and poorly reflects on General Pershing despite his stellar, unblemished record.
Let’s get some proper points on the table first. At the declaration of war, General Barnett the current Commandant of the Marine Corps lobbied unmercifully and quite successfully to get his Marines into the fight. When you are a professional soldier leading other professional soldiers, that is a most honorable thing to do. Your country needs men to fight and you have those resources to provide, you step up and raise your hand. Just as vigorously, General Pershing resisted all efforts to have Marines participate or be assigned to the theater of operations in a combat role, a perfect case of inter-service rivalry at the sacrifice of making use of well-trained combat forces. The Marines at the time were ready for duty just as much as the standing Regular Army at the time. In fact the overall assessment of the Marines’ participation in WWI and as a joint partner with the Army is rated very high. There are multiple instances both within the 2nd Division and without of Army troops being led by Marine Officers and Marine units being led by Army Officers. Performance is the ultimate arbiter and the Marines gave good and great account of themselves when and wherever they fought.
All I can say is, damn Floyd Gibbons for being an effective as a reporter and writing stories that sold newspapers to a nation beginning to come into its own as a world power!
As to the Marines’ performance at Belleau Wood. It stands on its own merit, a tough fight against a tough enemy. Did we have support? Youbetcha! Did we do the heavy lifting. Youbetcha!
“Floyd Gibbons helped enhance the image of the Marines, but the United States Marine Corps as we know it today came of age in WW II. Most Americans believe that the Marine Corps won the war in the Pacific, while the US Army fought in Europe. ”
The author skips a very seminal and formative period of the 1920s and the 1930s for the Marine Corps. This is where many of the storied officers and NCOs of the “old Corps” cut their combat teeth. (If the author wanted to make a point about inept leadership as another reason for cutting the Marine Corps to save a dollar at the expense of the country’s security why didn’t he dig in here? Let’s not cherry pick.) The development of amphibious landing doctrine and its execution find it roots during this time. You talk about the perception that most Americans believe the Marines won the war in the Pacific is challenged mostly by the fact that our general public’s knowledge of such history has atrophied to the point of non-existence. I doubt that this is the case anymore as those memories outside the military become more blurred and watered down in the teaching of military history at our public institutions. The same could issue could be raised for those Soldiers who fought the Italian campaign or the British or the Russians who could claim that we have created the perception that WWII won on the beaches of Normandy at Point du Hoc to the exclusion of everyone else. Further still little is ever said by anyone of those US forces that fought in the India, Burma, China Theater outside Stilwell and Claire Chennault’s Flying Tigers.
“The Navy adamantly refused to place their fleet, (and their Marines), under the command of the Army. After five weeks of bureaucratic wrangling, General MacArthur was given command of the Southwest Pacific theatre, while Admiral Nimitz had jurisdiction over the remainder of the Pacific ocean. The result, in Macarthur’s own words, was a “divided effort, the… duplication of force (and) undue extension of the war with added casualties and cost”.
This was an Army-Navy issue and pre-1947 so I am not clear as to what points the author wishes to make. While MacArthur was certainly a brilliant military mind, he was not infallible and not above political infighting and maneuvering to gain a self-serving objective (in this case fighting to avoid becoming a backwater of the war.) Both the Central and Southwest campaigns were critical to the overall success of the war against Japan, and unlike the war in Europe and the battle for the Atlantic aside, the Pacific was as a more a naval oriented theater. Simply to get from point A to point B in sufficient force was going to require significant sealift and associated warships for protection and support. Now the author is advocating that we subordinate the Navy to the Army.
“By way of comparison, General Macarthur’s Army killed, captured, or stranded over a quarter of a million Japanese troops during the New Guinea campaign, at a cost of only 33,000 US casualties. The Navy and Marines suffered over 28,000 casualties to kill roughly 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima. Even then, the Army played a greater role than Marines like to admit; the Army had more divisions assaulting Okinawa than the Marines.”
The Pacific was a bloody conflict, no argument. We were fighting an enemy that culturally approached death and self-sacrifice in a much more apocalyptic fashion than was encountered in the European theater. They were tenacious fighters and in island fighting there isn’t a great deal of maneuver warfare and in most instances this was the island that was needed in the next step of the campaign. Many of the decisions were made above the heads of Marine ground unit leadership. The Marines’ responsibility was to execute and achieve the objective. When your only alternative is to go through the front door of these small central Pacific islands, then you do so as vigorously and as violently as you can. It doesn’t make it easier when your enemy knows it as well.
The author overlooks the the Philippine campaign and the enormous casualties on both sides as well as the tremendous civilian casualties. This was a MacArthur campaign that could have easily been avoided by taking Formosa instead, but was ultimately made to fulfill MacArthur’s commitment to liberate the Philippines.
I would disagree with author’s assertion that Marines don’t like to admit that the Army played a greater role in the Pacific than is given credit. I don’t think we care that much. We tell our story, not anybody else’s.
“In fact the Marine Corps was nearly legislated out of existence two years later. After the bureaucratic infighting that characterized inter-service relations during WW II, there was a strong desire among military professionals to unify the military commands.”
This is an excellent example of the diatribe against “those damn Marines.” The effort was principally from the Army-Air Force leadership. The Naval Services (both Navy and Marine Corps) faced serious challenges as to what military doctrine and structure the country was going to pursue in new emerging nuclear age. The Navy and Marine successfully fought that challenge using the very tactics applied against them. Sour grapes my friends. Force projection from the sea, protection and interdiction of the sea lanes of commerce and traffic has served us well since then.
Again, the Marine Corps is not a second army. If the author purports to know so much about the history of the Marine Corps he would also know that since the turn of the last century the doctrinal direction of the Naval Services and the Marine Corps in particular has been littoral warfare for both quick and sustained projection of force from the sea. This is best illustrated in numerous instances from the development of amphibious landing doctrine and close air support developed pre-WWII, expeditionary unit organization and deployments since the early 1900s, and the numerous post-Vietnam advances to include pre-positioned equipment and shipping.
The comments and reactions from the Army leadership and the President at that time were unfortunate and beneath their stature as leaders of this country, not to mention short-sighted.
“Nevertheless, Marines to this day hold up the fight at the Chosin reservoir as proof of their superiority over the Army.”
In reading the history – including those accounts not written by Marines the 1st Marine Division’s operations and conduct still stand as a testament on how to overcome disastrous strategy inflicted on them and the 8th Army as how not to. If it were not for the discipline of the Division’s leadership in keeping it together as a coherent combat unit leading up to and throughout the engagement it would have disintegrated quickly as evidenced by a lack of command cohesion in the 8th Army operations.
In this case, yes we were better than the Army in dealing with this situation.
I have served with Soldiers and as individuals, no finer human beings. The issue isn’t the individual soldier. They are as dedicated, brave, and just ass kicking as any Marine I’ve met when properly led and trained. The issue lies mainly with the Army’s philosophy, doctrine, training and leadership, but our systems are different and I chalk that up to difference of mission and purpose. The Marine Corps way of doing things to accomplish its mission works for the Marine Corps. The Army’s approach and the culture is very different from ours. The Army as a larger more diverse (in many ways and functions) organization and is more challenged than the Marine Corps as a smaller more consistent and cohesive organization. Their challenges in managing this complexity are not ours. When the Army goes in, they have to be prepared to conduct a campaign for the long haul. We are designed for short, sharp engagements. We are such different organizations that I am constantly amazed when the attempt is made to compare the two as apples to apples.
How the Marines have been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan has more in making do with combat forces you have at hand than the long term strategic choices we are discussing here.
I will leave the comments on both these theaters and analysis to those who were actually there. I have heard and read enough to know that like any similar conflict such as these two there will great deeds done and regrettable actions taken.
It is not about whether the Marines will be storming the beaches as we did at Tarawa. In this age of firepower and munitions, there isn’t an enemy that would put themselves in front of that steamroller (at least not the smart ones). But to project a significant force along coastal areas from sea-based assets is a need that will only become more critical as we are forced to decrease our land-based presence in other countries.
Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. Projection ashore is a logistics intensive exercise and that expertise rests with the Navy-Marine Corps team that has been perfected over the last 20 years and not easily replicated overnight.
If the author is basing his argument on historical performance and the fallacious assertion of a myth generated by those who know so little about the workings of the Marine Corps as a second army and an intense rivalry as justification to eliminate the Marine Corps he has fallen short. He’ll need to show the whole scope of history of both organizations and not just a few selective pieces based on hearsay, anecdote and hyperbole.
Simple Marine – Please read my posts before and after this one. I don’t support the merging of the Corps or its disbandment. . My comments have to do with other issues and if you want to make the case for why we need a Marine Corps I’ll join you (within reason).
Read what I said in a post below ref the USMC as a second Army. The fact is today we can “float” 30,000 marines yet the force is at over a quarter million. That’s quite a bit more than is written in law which ONLY the Marine Corps has seen fit to successfully lobby for. Not a second Army?
My biggest issue with Marines/the Marine Corps is taking credit for things they haven’t done and almost always having to denigrate the Army to make themselves bigger than they are. Your defense is you haven’t seen that. That claim is nearly incomprehensible in light of your elequent prose and thoughtful debate. I suggest you look harder. The author has cited official Marine histories, publications and websites where Marines have “embellished” their record. The Marine Corps Gazette and official website differ with your observation.
As you would likely agree, taking credit for things you haven’t done is pretty despicable.
As or the second issue, “denigrating the Army” I can handle some good natured fun but some Marines have taken this to extremes so I’ll just have to use your term in kind and say “sour grapes” when Soldiers react with appropriate vitriol and cite sources substantiating the truth and showing those that have promulgated lies for what they are. Blowhards at best and slime for taking credit for army achievements at worst.
There are MANY examples here of Marine feats that don’t exist or were actually Army accomplishments. I’d be deeply ashamed and apologetic if it was the other way around.
In defending the existence of the Marine Corps (not something I disagree with) you use the same tactics I’ve been railing against. Is it part of Marine DNA?
Pershing’s attempts to keep the Corps out of Europe were wrong. It did not keep the Marines out of the fight, leave them unsupported or justify ignoring orders to seek publicity.
Don’t know what the interwar period has to do with the gist of the story but I’d like to remind you that the Army not the Marine Corps was tasked by the JCS to develop doctrine for SUSTAINED amphibious ops. The Army stole Marine tactical employment doctrine added logistical doctrine, created “Engineer Special Brigades” under the Engineer Amphibious Command and is largely responsible for the fewer Marine Amphib ops that earned the USMC such acclaim. After the war the Marines took it all back and claimed they invented it. Let me remind you at this point, “Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.” You and the Corps are welcome!
ref:http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/boose.pdf p 4- 38
If you take the time to read the reference above you’ll find abysmal treatment of the Army by the Marines/Navy in attempting to prepare for amphibious requirements. That easily translates into lives. 1948 didn’t happen in a vacuum (though I still don’t agree with it).
Your rejection of the incorrect perception that Marines won the Pacific campaign single handedly because our students don’t learn it today is laughable. We aren’t debating civilians here and that doesn’t change history! MARINES are officially taught only a twisted version of history. Comparing that with D-Day, Italy and Burma defies logic.
As for Chosin, you can cite it as an example of Marine superiority against 8th Corps but characteristically of Marines you do it without acknowledging the Army Regiment east of Chosin that was destroyed in detail while fighting more Chinese than any comparable Marine unit west of Chosin buying the Marines time to withdraw to Hagaru-ri and eventually Hungnam held by Army units. So yeah, “we were better than the Army in dealing with this situation” should be caveated with “as long as we can sacrifice an Army regiment to consolidate” and “the Army can hold a beachehead for us to withdraw to”. Chosin was an impressive feat of arms. It wasn’t done in a vacuum and again I personally don’t appreciate the “Marine, spiking the ball” on a field of dead soldiers.
And so let’s come full circle to your, “Again, the Marine Corps is not a second army. If the author purports to know so much about the history of the Marine Corps he would also know that since the turn of the last century the doctrinal direction of the Naval Services and the Marine Corps in particular has been littoral warfare for both quick and sustained projection of force from the sea.”
Contrast that with a quarter million man force that can only deploy 30,000 at a time. Not a second Army? The numbers and use over the last decade (at least) say different and I missed the case for why Marines have a requirement for “sustained projection of force”. That sounds a lot like a second army…
Appreciate the cordial and intelligent discourse. Any offense was unintended. Take my exuberant passion as frustration over old arguments resting on false facts or deductions by those applying a double standard to the truth. The Army isn’t blameless in this controversy but the marines have kept it going for the last 60 years. I think it’s time for a rest.
“There were Marines in the American Revolution. I personally have never read nor heard any assertions from my fellow Marines that the Marines were THE pivotal force in our gaining independence or in single-handedly defeating the British.”
In 1921,the Marine Corps Gazette published and article which claimed the Continental Marines were the key to the victories at Trenton and Princeton. The article may be reached by doing a google search for “Marines at Trenton”.
Trenton and Princeton were the most crucial victories in American Military History. If not for Trenton and Princeton, the Revolution would have ended and there would have been no United States of America.
The Continental Marines, according to genuine history, played an insignificant and unimportant role in the Battles of Trenton and Princeton.
i personally don’t think Marine should be eliminate, there a need for it (navy need infantry). With that said, a big part of the reason the Marine still existed i believe it mostly of because of a great PR campaign. we all know how powerful it can be (i.e Hitler) image and reality are two difference thing. Marine can definitely sell themselves. It not true that Marine only talk about Marine history because Marine seem to know quite a bit about Army history as well, mainly failure and negative stuff. how do i know this? because i ran into many Marine that like to remind me of the Army screw up. unfortunate the Army does not teach much about it history or Marine. Soldier that are resentful of Marine because it seem the Marine like to built pride at the expense of soldier image. Trying to take credit and dis-credit your brother in arm is not cool.
take away the smoke and mirror the Marine is a second Army, title is just that title. Marine mission and Army mission is the same, attack and take enemy ground, So where is this difference mission or purpose that Marine do the Army don’t?
the main sea power, logistic and force projection is mainly our Naval force not Marine. Although it nice to have Marine on board i believe if replace by Soldier (working together with Navy might bring the two branch closer too) it wouldn’t be any difference as proof by D-Day.
Marine pride themselves being superior to Soldier, but from actual history and some of the posting stated, there many time Marine fall flat and needed and request Army help (i would imagine it hard to ask for help from someone who you consider so inferior, must be hard) or when Army unit perform better than M.C, Army doesn’t not make a big deal about it or claim to be superior and of course Marine will not mention it because it disgraceful (we just tell side of our story). But the few times where Marine help/assist Soldier, look out they will never stop talking about it and will put it down in their history as proof they are superior.
speaking of ww1 Marine go against general Pershing order by talking to Media and making a big stink about it is the reason why they stand out more? congraduation! but there was three more week of intense fighting in Belleau Wood (which is part of a larger operation) by the Army after the Marine left which no one seem to know. i can’t blame some Army commander not wanting to fight near a Marine unit because they will get all the credit as usual just like Fallujah in Iraq and i bet other battle too and yes it true Marine very good that story telling.
No, I’m a former Army officer (Infantry) and can see no reason to disband the USMC or role it over into the Army.
First, by law it has its own air assets which provides it a major advantage as a combined arms force. Marine Air does CAS the best. Not just because the Marines own it but Marine pilots are taught to think like grunts first.
Second, Marine culture promotes a warrior spirit across the whole organization. Not so in the Army and I even as an Army officer would not want to risk losing that though we should sincerely try to inculcate that in Army culture. Currently it primarily resides in the combat arms and some combat support specialties.
Third, it takes a lot of assets to maintain an Airborne capability and truthfully we’ve let it flounder a bit over the last en years. I’m not confident the Army would maintain an amphibious capability as well as a force devoted to it and with a long term relationship with the Navy.
I would say that the marines have become a second Army. It doesn’t take a little more than a quarter million force to man three divisions and threee air wings. The Marines cultural fear of being disbanded and ambitious desire to grow beyond their traditional role drove a top notch lobbying campaign resulting in being the ONLY SERVICE that has their size dictated by law. Quite ridiculous considering we have a maximum capability of deploying 30,000 Marines by see. What’s the rest for? A second Army to challenge Army roles and ensure the Corps’ continued growth and mystique.
to be fair, some of these attitude toward the Army is brought on by the fact Army commander have tried to dis-band them since their existence.
Sorry Steve. You are referring to ONE period in 1948 (over SIXTY years ago) and even then it was a move to merge the Corps into the Army (not something I’ve ever supported). “Multiple” attempts by the Army to end the Corps is simply not true but is a convenient excuse for the insecurity, inferiority & meanspiritedness that fuels a constant Marine diatribe against the Army.
Now that I’ve disproven your hypothesis what’s the next excuse for the shabby treatment Marines try and heap on the Army?
I would just like to re-iterate on something. Fallujah – you were not the Primary Assault Force there. 2/7 Cavalry, and 2-2 Infantry were.
Now, again – Mosul, a worse city than Fallujah. Yet we were able to quell the city like true warriors. Without Pulling out, losing it to the enemy totally – as in the case with the USMC in Fallujah; and having To have 2/7 & 2-2 Go in and punch a hole into Fallujah.
Our superiority in Mosul, Tal Afar, Sadr City, Aadhamiya, Baghdad- Allowed us to quell those city’s, without having to re-take them entirely like in Nov 04′.
When Marines were not even in Afghanistan , atleast not in any number 02-08 era…Our Units were kicking ass, and getting not one minute of time on the news; because you Moron’s over in Fallujah were getting Pushed out of the city.
Those AMTRAK amphibious vehicles; On land – ARE SHIT, PERIOD.
Bradley Fighting vehicle is the most capable, destructive, Fast, legit peice of equipment that this nation has in its arsenal. Period.
Thats why we took Baghdad in 03, That and I believe our Tanker Crews are beastly, and can outgun any force on this planet in an Armored battle. Too include the USMC. Look at the only major tank engagement of Desert Storm; Because it wasnt the USMC that was involved.
I do not pretend that the USMC doesnt have some hero’s. Butler, Basilone, and others are true warriors. However, you simply cannot compete with our great unit’s such as the 82n’d ABN, 101st ABN, 173rd, 3rd Infantry, 1st Cav, 11th ACR, These unit’s are Legend; and have done more for this country than any other single unit.
1st MAR DIV – They have some history; not near that of these others. The Pacific, again, we (ARMY) were the primary force down there. Which im glad to see some of you jarheads have acknowledged.
Really? Not in afghanistan from 02-08? I was in Korengal Valley in ’06 and all that hooah moto restrepo documentary was spearheaded by our efforts in Task Force Lava. 1st BN 3rd Marines, 2nd BN 3rd Marines, and 3rd BN 6th Marines all were there first and spearheaded the main efforts in your “Valley of Death” with Delta and the Rangers. Ask any Ranger, they would take a Marine grunt over an Army grunt any day of the week. BTW my grandfather was Army Infantry at Okinawa and he said the Marines spearheaded and took the brunt of the main battles throughout the entire campaign. Iwo Jima, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Saipan, and Peleliu. Okinawa was the main join effort while Saipan and Peleliu had some army involvement. It is impossible for the USMC to complete compare to all the aspect of Army ground warfare. Marine grunts invaded Iraq in open top humvees while the Army went in with new everything and with far more competent initial leadership. Read up on the Afghanistan War from 02-08 moron…Marine expeditionary forces were some of the first in and went to the most active combat zones. Don’t try to push the glory and greatness of ARMY SF to the other combat focused units in the Army because SF is really the only part of the ENTIRE Army that showed consistently for the entirety of the Afghanistan War.
I was with 1st Battalion/3rd Marines from ’06-’10. We established the KOP and all the infantry units of the 3rd Marine Regiment were deployed to Korengal Valley during the early years of the AFghistan war. All the men who trained me fought at fallujah and the narrative for that battle has been argued for a decade. The fact is that Marines led Operation Phantom Fury with help from vital US Army units including SF. The Marine Corps infantry has accomplished MORE with less and that is a narrative or fact that cannot be argued. US Army combat units are catered to like babies and given everything they have ever needed.The fact you say “cannot compete” is hilarious especially while factoring in the massive difference in size, funding, and support between the Marine infantry and all those army combat units you proclaimed. The airborne units mobilized in WWII were a complete DISASTER. DDay was a mess and if Germany had their first rate military and SS divisions from the eastern front the army would have been destroyed. What is so great about 101st and 82nd? They can jump out of planes…awesome…completely irrelevant since WWII and both of those units were completely overshadowed in Vietnam by the Air Cav anyways. Marine grunts are relevant on any battlefield, in any war. 101st and 82nd airborne can’t even lick the boots of the 1st and 2nd marine division EVER. Even the 3rd Marine regiment did more heavy lifting than those “great” units. Airborne is the true IRRELEVANT unit.
We can argue all day long about the Marine Corps vs. The Army. There are things in our collective history that have been accepted as fact that may or may not have been embellished (spelling). The only thing that is of any importance is that todays front line war fighter is the most lethal intrument of death on any battlefield in the word. Whether that warrior is wearing an Army uniform or a Marine Corps uniform is of no consequence.
Both services are unique in their defined mission there is none finer in the world. So rather than waist time and band width bickering of which service is “better” we should pray for our front line warriors and draw comfort that no nation on earth can stand againts the most lethal organization ever devised by man.
You armchair generals all bitch at each other back and forth on the internet…
AND NOT A SINGLE FUCK WAS GIVEN.
God, this article just RADIATES Army butthurt.
It screams it at the top of it’s lungs.
Bonus points for all the fake Army vets in the comments section.
booze – Some posters from both sides are “butthurt”. The author doesn’t do a good job of making the case for merging the Marine Corps into the Army.
The article and thread do a good job of documenting many cases of the Corps taking credit for things it hasn’t done. That’s pretty embarrassing.
lanl – maybe not by you but I bet many Marines won’t be claiming things their branch never did.
@majrod… You sound like a dickrider.. You should ETS out the Army and join the Marines… your opinion is isolated.. If you dont have team cohesion with the men around you and you feel excluded from your soldiers? then that is your problem and you should blame that on yourself because like I said, “your a Marine dickrider”… gtfo and join the replica infantry you fucking maxi pad. The cohesion and brotherhood in the Army is there but for some reason you didnt “fit in”… Im guessing youre a fag and you should join the Marines so you could find out that your going to get the same treatment if youre not willing to conform. Maybe the replica infantry will accept you since youre willing to get on your knees and suck their cock.
Davey – That butthurt comment must have hit a nerve! What’s a dickrider sound like? You know some? You overcompensating? If you really doubt my sexual orientation I’d be happy to entertain any of the women in your life. hehehe…
I don’t have any issues with my service or branch. We actually have a longer and if not, more distinguished history. BTW, Army Infantry was first. You “copied” us.
I have the greatest respect for Marines. I’ve disagreed with some posters here who have attacked Marines generally or believe the corps should be disbanded.
Ex-Marines like yourself realy don’t deserve my attention or have an opinion that is worthwhile. I’m sure many of your peers are ashamed of you as well. Great example though of how low some Ex-Marines are. I bet your a REMF to boot. Army NCOs and officers would pale if a soldier ever addressed a Marine offficer like you tried. Must be an Army thing?
Simple Marine – How do you explain this sorry excuse?
I’m married moron, and I was Army infantry not no damn Naval replica infantry… Like I said your a fucking dickrider. Go choke yourself with some marine cock.
common people this is a respectable site. what up the with the dickrider comment? first time i ever heard that. lol
Davy – So now you’re a soldier? Doubt it. If so your post makes no sense. At no point did I disparge the Army, the Infantry or the Marines. Do you have a comprehension problem? What are you upset about. Did he say no to you?
I’m thinking you’re a closet commando. Your dad’s efforts would have been better spent against a public bathroom wall.
Lol.. Fuckin fruit basket.. Youre just mad because somebodies telling you to go suck some marine dick, and from what Ive “comprehended” you said that the marines have jets and their pilots are the best because they think like grunts.. Lol.. Have you ever heard of the Air Force??.. Lol.. Fuckin retard.. Marine cocksucker in the Army.
I am a Marine, and yes I am proud of that fact. I have friends that have served in every branch, and yes there is interservice rivalry but it is all good clean fun. The point at the end of the day over beers is that we all served. I see points from all sides here. Agree on some, disagree on others. There are bad leaders at all levels in every branch just as there are great leaders at all levels in every branch. My question honestly is, what are all of you trying to prove?
From all the facts and quotes from history I say….History is written by the victors and more times than not it is written to use as propaganda. Yes we must all learn from our history so as to not repeat the mistakes of the past etc, etc, blah-blah-blah. I’m not here to state what has already been said. Hell, I’m not really here to understand because I know given the text I have read that there is no changing the mind of the proud posters!!!!
What I will say is that I served, was proud to have served and even if we weren’t in the same branch of service, I am proud of your service if you served with honor. Yes, my fellow Marines and I share a bond that cannot be understood by most but that is because of the lingo and traditions we share. However my Army brothers and I know what it is to sweat and bleed and I am proud to call them my friends and brothers as well.
Sure when I was younger I had that mindset that “Squids, Doggies and Flyboys” were nothing compared to Marines. Well I grew up. We are a nation that has separate branches of the service and they all have a mission to do. The end result is all the same, protect our nation. How we conduct it depends on the branch. I have no political clout so I’m not going to get bogged down into a discussion about funding and service size and all that jazz.
Maybe I am just rambling and this isn’t being well written or put together very well. I can’t dispute history that I wasn’t involved in either. I guess my last thought will be…please grow up, let it go, move on and thank your fellow veterans, despite branch of service, despite MOS. Most history, military or not was written to make someone or something look good.
Thad – Good post.
[…] […]
Good shit Thad.. You’re right.
The perfect wedding speech will be remembered for years. But there is a lot of pressure to say the right things, whether you are the bride, the groom, the best man, or the maid of honor. You want to do your part to make the day as special as possible.
It is best to think about what you want to say or even rehearse. And if you are not sure, you can download great wedding speeches online to get ideas.
US Marines deny exaggerating deeds of war hero: More lies
http://news.yahoo.com/us-marines-deny-exaggerating-deeds-war-hero-070549889.html
US Marines deny exaggerating deeds of war hero: Again Marines take credit for something that didn’t happen.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-marines-deny-exaggerating-deeds-war-hero-070549889.html
That story is a losing proposition. It’s too much like BAE trying to tarnish Meyer.
The writer that was present admits in the end that Meyer still did plenty to have earned the MOH. Well heck why write the story? Just the press looking to engineer the next controversy.
As for this thread/subject, there’s PLENTY to show the Corps plays fast and loose with facts/history and accomplishments. This issue just makes folks look like haters.
With regard to Sergeant Dakota Meyer, there is something else which disturbs me.
The US Courts have decided masquerading as a war hero, i.e. stolen valor is protected free speech. Does anyone doubt that heroes like Sergeant Meyer got the valor thieves this right to express themselves, as imitation heroes?
It is pitiful that this country, or at least its courts, seem to think the imitation hero valor thieves deserve more consideration than the actual heroes
to me whether Meyer deserve or not is not the point it the fact that he/Marine like to embellish their accomplishment, which is one of the main point in this article. The Corp have a history of doing this, exaggerating their roles in any war they been in.
i was watching Okinawa the lost evidence on history channel. at the end of the show you would think the Marine did majority of the fighting. They interview five Marines and two Soldiers, most of the air time was on the Marine, very little was on the soldiers. It leave the impression to viewer to thinks the Marine did practically all the fighting but truth be told it quite the opposite.
You have no idea what you are talking about on Okinawa. Army General Bunker relieved the entire 22nd army regiment because they could not advance. He replaced them with the 6th Marines. Objective taken shortly afterwards. Most medal of honors issued in a single battle. All going to Marines. Fact check it partner. The 6th Marines won the northern part of the island then was sent to the south as the 22nd regiment was ordered to withdrawl and be replaced by Marines.
I can’t believe this….. Sounds like two sisters fighting over the same dress. I believe both forces are necessary. There are many things the Marines do far better than the Army and many things the Army does that the Marines can not. Both are brave and havie died for our nation. Next time you walk through Arlington or any other sacred cemetery where our heroes lay, think about their sacrafice and our freedom. I’m willing to bet you’ll realize how petty and “bar room” this sounds. Army National Guard Soldier
i totally understand your statement but in real life things are not in black and white, it a lot more complicated then just can’t we get along?
I think some statements have been WAY OVER the line but the thread was very educational. There is a propensity for Marines to only read their history and not doubt it.
I never want the corps rolled up into the Army and the author of the original article does a very poor job of making that point but his other point about inaccurate history and claiming accolades that weren’t earned is solid.
Get your army head outta your ass and websters books! You have no clue what you are talking about! You are a complete moron! The Marine corps wins the battles your right! The Army doesn’t win the wars! They have to be there first of all! You are an idiot! The Marine corps is a 1/4 the size and has been responsible for all the victories that Army General claim! Get your facts straight! You are a disgrace to this country to think your freedom isn’t the work of the U.S.M.C….. You probally served in Vietnam which the Marine Corps saved the Army’s Ass and ended up Taking the Heat for! Or your a POG!
Who are you talking to? Which battles are you discussing? Vietnam was a team affair at Hue and Khe Sanh Army units came to the aid or broke the seige of Marine units.
Don’t try and sound as ignorant as many of the posts here.
BTW 11B here…
Actually, when the army relieved the marines at khe sanh, the battle was over. The marines already won. And hue, whilst defintitley a team affair, most of the fighting was done by marines, as they were the tip of the spear. Now I am not vehemently pro USMC, like some people, and I have great respect for the army. But don’t downplay moments in the corps history like the army saved their asses.
this article is very pro army which is fine take pride in your branch theres no problem with that. what i do have a problem with is this article has a ton of half truths and the phrasing of the majority of it is purposely misleading. i was in the marines for 4 years 2003-2007 i was a rifle man i was in the first battle of fallujah i replaced the 82nd airborne. first off the reason why the first battle was unsuccessful was because we were pulled out of there for political reasons there was an iraqi general who said his army could handle the problem which is why we were pulled out around the middle of June 2004. obviously the iraqi general and his troops didnt get the job done hence forth the marines were sent back to in to do what they initially were going to do and that is clear the city of insurgents which is what they did in november of 2004. now im just guessing here but i also think we were pulled out early and had iraqis try and clear the city due to the fact that it was a re election year for bush and he didnt want a huge battle going on in a country that he had declared all major combat operations had ceased after he won the election less than a month later here come the marines back in fallujah. also i will add this about the 82nd i have respect for them but they turned over a nightmare to us right away you couldnt go more than 500 yards into that city without getting into some type of firefight. the 82nd also wouldnt set up firm bases inside the city the marines would. also the author conveniently leaves out the army’s mistakes the marines are by far not perfect we do make mistakes but to think that we are the only ones is completely absurd. the 82nd some time around may-june 2003 had shot up a bunch of kids in front of a school killing several i dont know the exact details but needless to say the iraqis were upset and may-june 2004 there was this huge firefight where 2 marines had been killed this firefight happened on the anniversary of the kids being shot at the school. so yea the marines have dirt of them but i would say the army has the same amount if not more dirt just due to the size of the army. another point im going to make is this i have several friends who decided to go into the army after being in the marines and i have asked them how is it compared to the marines. they have all said pretty much the same thing which is the army is very undisciplined and too relaxed and not as tough the mentality is different. better equipment in the army thats about the only good thing that was said about the army was better equipment. also this country wouldnt save money by combining the two you would still have the same amount of people. the marines are good at bragging and telling the world what they do (yes they do embellish sometimes i’ll admit it) the army gets way more money from the dod than any other branch so they have all the public relation stuff at their disposal too its not the marines job to tell the army’s story. last point the marines get their funding from the navy not the dod so we get whats left over in other words
Won’t disagree with a lot that you said except towards the end. The Army is the biggest branch. Bigger than all the other branches combined but it gets 31% vs. 50%. If you look at a per capita expenditure all the services except the Marines exce4ed the Army and the Marines number is distorted because much of its support comes out of the Navy and Army’s infrastructure.
PR? The Marines have all the branches beat hands down. Just look at the recruiting commercials and the embellishment you acknowledged.
Finally, it’s NOT the Marines job to tell the Army story but they shouldn’t be stealing it or taking all the credit. At Falujah the Army provided more than 30% of the manpower and the overwhelming majority of armor. Noticed you griped a little about the 82nd handover but not a peep about the help.
He wouldn’t be a Marine if he admitted that the Army Help them in a battle or that the Army did anything better or perceive to be better. it would defeat the purpose of being Marine. Marine are taught to think they better than everyone else and to look down on the Army as being inferior, it their culture.
The Army have to spend more effort on their PR, (maybe hired civilian like the Marine do) and try not to fight along side the Marine as they will get all the credits as usual.
ok ill admit it i have no problem admitting it the army did and does work along side the marines and we help each other out as far as the army providing the vast majority of the armor i have heard that and i wont deny it because i did read an article in some magazine while i was over there about the army bringing in their tanks to help the marines (hows that for pr) like i said i dont know about the vast majority i know they were there but there were some marine tank battalions too. the army gets 31% of the budget while the marines gets 4% of the budget the marines get their money from the navy and alot of our equipment is from the army. alot of times it will even say “property of the army” i know from experience on that one. so my point of that one is the marines do put forth effort on recruiting and having a good public image but the army gets almost 8 times what the marines get budget wise so they have alot more at their disposal and have alot more influence on the news and how they are portrayed in the public. i guess its more of an opinion type thing i think the marines should tell their story and the army can tell theirs thats all. now i will disagree with you on the army providing more than 30% unless you can prove it i am going off of wikipedia it stated that the army totaled 1500 which is 12% so if you can give me a credible source im going to say your data on that one is incorrect. but like i said before its all a pride thing too nothing wrong with thinking your branch is the best in fact i believe it makes every one work harder and do better the main point i was making was the article is extremely inaccurate and doesnt tell the whole story in most of its slide and tells half truths designed to make the marines look bad
the point i was trying to make with somalia was not that the enemy was more afraid to engage the marines vs the army. the point was that the somalia publicly is somewhat of a black eye for the army the mission was not a success it was an utter disaster still brave men fought and died nothing but respect for those guys. the author leaves this entire thing out of his article which backs up what im saying is the article is conveniently missing facts about the army screwing up. also he states the invasion of iraq didnt go well for the marines. why did it not go well for the marines they made their objective his rationale for it going well was because they had to engage the enemy the marines were in the biggest battle during the engagement which was nasariya. to say that it didnt go well and to imply the army could of done a better job is flat out misleading. now onto fallujah the marines replaced the 82nd and when we took it over it was a hornets nest. the 82nd didnt really patrol in fallujah and wouldnt set up firm bases. yes in the first battle the marines didnt realize how bad it was based on intel from the army turns out that intel was wrong and fallujah was the deadliest city in iraq at that time. so when we started to go in we did need armor and yes we requested the army give us armor. now for the second battle im not sure but i believe there was the same amount of marine and army artillery and i believe there was more marine armor than army i got all this from wikipedia so thats what im basing it on. there is more but i will leave it at this for now so you can state your case.
Minsky – You missed the autors point. He isn’t cataloging battlefield errors. He lists accomplishments that the Marines either embellish or “appropriate” from Army history. Is there an example of the Army claiming Marine history as its own?
Secondly, how was Somalia a disaster? Was the mission not accomplished? Did the Rangers not though wildly outnumbered evacuate their dead and wounded and kick ass? Yes casualties were suffered but considering the odds the Rangers gave a heck of a lot more than they took. If there was any defeat it was a political one. Saying Mogahdishu was a disaster would be the same as saying Wake Island was a disaster.
And as for Nasiriyah I would remind you EIGHT AAVP7s were lost and there was a friendly fire incident when the marines called in an airstrike on forward elements. More marines were killed at Nasiriyah and less casualties inflicted by a whole RCT than one Ranger company and a Delta detachment in Somalia. Also the Marines relieved the RCT commander four days later. Now I don’t think Nasiriyah was a disaster but it sure didn’t go any better than Mogahdishu so you may want to reconsider qualifying what you mean when you call Somalia a disaster. BTW, how many Medals of Honor were awarded at Nasiriyah?
Sounds to me like the Army went through Iraq making truces with the enemy. Giving them freedom to roam the city. Finally the Marines were sent in to face the enemy. While the army was sipping tea and looking the other way when coming across the enemy’s house. Letting the enemy have all that time and freedom of movement probably contributed to many Marines losing their life’s. That is all the argument you need to see the difference between the army and Marines. One branch decided to avoid the enemy at all cost. The other branch Marines decided to engage the enemy at all cost. I believe you army boys should take a moment of silence for those lost Marines.
ok ill admit it i have no problem admitting it the army did and does work along side the marines and we help each other out as far as the army providing the vast majority of the armor i have heard that and i wont deny it because i did read an article in some magazine while i was over there about the army bringing in their tanks to help the marines (hows that for pr) like i said i dont know about the vast majority i know they were there but there were some marine tank battalions too. the army gets 31% of the budget while the marines gets 4% of the budget the marines get their money from the navy and alot of our equipment is from the army. alot of times it will even say “property of the army” i know from experience on that one. so my point of that one is the marines do put forth effort on recruiting and having a good public image but the army gets almost 8 times what the marines get budget wise so they have alot more at their disposal and have alot more influence on the news and how they are portrayed in the public. i guess its more of an opinion type thing i think the marines should tell their story and the army can tell theirs thats all. now i will disagree with you on the army providing more than 30% unless you can prove it i am going off of wikipedia it stated that the army totaled 1500 which is 12% so if you can give me a credible source im going to say your data on that one is incorrect. but like i said before its all a pride thing too nothing wrong with thinking your branch is the best in fact i believe it makes every one work harder and do better the main point i was making was the article is extremely inaccurate and doesnt tell the whole story in most of its slide and tells half truths designed to make the marines look bad
about Falujah, curious did you know that the Army unit recieved the Presidential citation and not the Marine? That are telling you something but yet every document i’ve seen on TV mentioned zero about the Army.
yea i knew that the army got a puc and no marine unit got one i mean thats good i give them credit for that, also did you know that two marines were awarded the navy cross which is second to the medal of honor. again i give the army credit i dont think they are worthless. my problem is with the author who thinks the marines are worthless and his argument for his stance is so full of holes its ridiculous. also how is it the marines fault that the tv documentaries dont give the army credit thats not the marines job or fault to make sure the tv mentions the army. a reason for it maybe because the army only comprised of 12% of the forces in fallujah although i’ll say it the army deserves credit where credit is do
Minsky – recheck your math. If you believe 6500 Marines (which sounds like it includes marines outside Falujah) and 1500 soldiers were in Falujah (not counting the Army BDE that was isolating Falujah, which is a double standard) the numbers are around 19% (a lot closer to 20 than it is to 12). That’s also looking at it from a manpower not combat power comparison where things like half the artillery was Army artillery and the majority of armor was Army armor are kind of important.
As for documentaries if the USMC provided tech support it should correct the record. The author also pointed out numerous examples of official Marine history that is inaccurate.
I think the author goes overboard. He makes zero case for rolling the Marines into the army based on false claims but he does adequately support a pattern of Marines mistating history or claiming Army accomplishments.
I think you’de make a better case for your point by IDing where the author is wrong vs. a blanket statement because alot of what he says is historically accurate.
I did not hear the author talk about the Army’s whole 22nd regiment being relieved of duty in southern Okinawa because the could not advance. That’s right army general Bunker relieved the 22 regiment because they could not advance against the enemy. Guess who he replaced them with 6th Marines fresh from conquering the northern part of the island. 5 days later Marines took Sugar loaf hill with little heavy weapons support. I would also like to point out that that single battle yielded more medal of honors than any other single battle in history. The most fortified position in all of world war 2.
Minsky: “…its not the marines job to tell the army’s story. ”
I wholeheartedly agree. What I object to is the Marines claiming parts of the Army’s story as their own, e.g., claiming to be the first Armed Force to fight in the nation’s defense, fighting in the Battle of Trenton, winning the Battle of New Orleans in 1815, capturing Chapultepec in the Mexican War, defending Bataan. I also object to such things as blaming HM Smith’s failures on Saipan on the 27th Infantry Division, blaming the casualties on Peleliu on General MacArthur rather than on the way the Marine Corps star level leadership, Roy Geiger and William Rupertus, planned and executed the Battle.
i do give you that there are some things especially the earlier marine corps history that is embellished and some of it flat out made up i give you that. my biggest issue is just how lop sided and slanted this article is he commits the same thing he rails against so its just hypocrisy at its finest in my opinion. i love how the marines in solmalia had no problems there but pull out and the army had black hawk down and his whole iraq arguments are completely wrong. the flag raising at iwo jima it wasnt staged it was just the men replacing the first flag and someone happened to snap a picture while they were doing that its a very famous story even has a book and a movie written about it. the marines in my opinion are the best branch i admit im biased i was in the marines 03-07 i was a rifleman but i still give the army credit they are the worlds best army and i like them. i think the marines are a better organization and are more capable of inflicting greater damage to the enemy
Minsky – It helps when you list specifics.
Agree on Iwo photo. What other examples are your referring to that are “lop sided or slanted”?
Somalia? When did the Marines go into the center of Mogadishu? When did they conduct ANY combat operations to capture Aidid gunmen ANYWHERE? It’s just silly to say the Marines “intimidated” the enemy because they didn’t have any significant contact. If that were the case there are numerous examples of quiet “Army” sectors in Iraq becoming active when the Marines relieved them (e.g. Falujah I, Haditha, Anbar province etc.) or what about Kafji in Desert Storm? No problem when the 82nd was on the border. Where the Iraqis “more afraid” of the 82nd? Of course not. The enemy gets a vote as to when they attack. Making claims of greatness because the enemy decided to attack after a relief is childish boasting.
As for “i think the marines are a better organization and are more capable of inflicting greater damage to the enemy”. That’s opinion without specifics. Considering it’s been the Army inflicting the most casualties in every major conflict there’s a lot of factual numbers that prove the opposite.
You really can’t say the Marines can inflict more damage. They are primarily a light infantry force and the Army has had more than it’s share of battles where it fought outnumbered and won. You can “feel” that it’s just the history doesn’t support it IF you read any history besides Marine history.
This reads like a bunch of sour grapes Army jealously over the Marine Corps greatness. Face the facts. The Marine Corps is where the big boys go and they back their reputation with actions.
Someone who’s name is “Cobra Commander” is judging who the “big boys” are?
To repeat, it is more about the Marine Corps claiming Army exploits as their own, blaming the Army for Marine charlie fox-trots in the Pacific.
Sounds like there are a lot more army guys than Marines. Hundreds of thousands in the Army. Less than 200000 in Corps. Based on those numbers involved here. I would say based on size of force the Marines have killed more.
There’s actually more than 200k Marines.
Prove your “opinion” that the Marines have inflicted more casualties. I bet you’ll start taking credit for Army accomplishments.
lol, face the fact huh? that is the problem actual facts and is what the article is trying to point out, Marine have to no actual fact to back their claim, just Marine fairy tales just like your username. BTW Cobra Commander never win a battle with G.I Joe (aka Army) lol
This author has no facts nor do any of you whiny soldiers. Whose to say your history isn’t made up. You weren’t there so you’ll never know.
i have heard that Somalia claim before from many Marine i run into, it laughable.Over 20,000 plus Marine with all it support elements that landed in Somalia was there to hand out foods, medical, and water, it was a humanitarian mission not combat. later on there was a change in the presidency and a change in policy (Aidid and his gang was taking all the freebee) that when Clintion send in 1 ranger company to go after the general Aidid and no the Ranger did not loose the battles. The screw up part was the higher up refuse to send any Armour which was requested but was denied by Washington, could have save a lot of soldiers.
i heard the same thing from Marine about Iraq and Afghanistan and that is the Taliban and Insurgence are afraid to attack the Marine and would rather wait to attack the Army instead because the Marine are so scary.
there was not any where near 20,000 marines in somalia there was one meu which only has at most 3000 marines and thats being very generous i do give you that its b.s. to say the insurgents are more afraid to attack marines than army
At least the Marines attacked the enemy. Sounds the army was afraid to go to the enemy’s house. You guys settled with the bad guys there in Iraq (informal treaty). Finally those in charge got fed up with cowards and had to call the Marines in to fight the enemy. While the Army was letting them run freely to set up ied’s. Sounds like the Army is probably responsible for some of those Marine deaths. The reason we still have a Marine Corps is because America still needs men that are willing to do the tuff and necessary actions that war requires. The fact that most people join the Army because they are scared of Marine Corps boot camp automatically tells you that even your best are second best. I am horrified. The only comparison the Army has for the Marine Corps might be the rangers. But, I have seen all branches while in the Corps and I have not met a branch with more pride, tradition and respect among ranks as the Marines. So you guys can be haunted all you want for the joining the Army, but Marines rock. That is why we guard the everything of importance to the US including the president. If Presidents are smart enough to know that when it goes down they want a platoon of Marines between them and bad guys. Because no truce will be mad.
dxman – Marines guard the President? Uh, that’s the secret service dude.
Guess you got tired of stealing Army accomplishments.
As for Marine basic and calling the Marines in that’s simply unsupportable with any facts, just an uneducated opinion.
BTW, when the Marines finally decided to go into Falujah gues who they called to lead the way? Yep, 2-2 & 2-7 Infantry (Army) and a WHOLE Army BDE to make sure nobody got out. Look it up.
I believe those are Marines standing beside that helicopter and all other entry and exits to the white house. T
They are CEREMONIAL. They salute and open the door! They are not armed. That constitutes “guarding”? What are they going to do to a threat? Kill them with harsh language?
Thanks for proving the point AGAIN about Marines embellishing their history.
This as hilarious as Marines participated on D-Day because the Navy ships had a contingent of Marines on board.
OK lets discuss a true joint landing on Okinawa. As history has it Army General Bunker a great man by all accounts. Well Nimitz was busting his chops because the southern half of Okinawa was as a stand still. The Marines had already captured the Northern portions of the island. The Army in the south was dug in an fighting a stalemate war of attrition. Nimitz told Bunker he had 5 days to advance. The first thing the Army general did was replace the Armys 22 regiment with the 6th Marines regiment. The my friend made all the difference. This is historically documented that he Army units being replaced were essentially refusing to advance on the enemy. When the Marines arrived it took them 5 days to over run sugar loaf hill which was a critical link in the enemy’s defense at the Shuri Line. Many Marines died in the single battle for Sugar Loaf Hill 5 Marines received the Medal of Honor and 1 Marine received the Navy Cross (second to medal of honor). In this fighting Marines recovered the Army dead. While doing this no Marine dead or wounded was left behind despite horrific concentrated and accurate fire. The Army’s 22nd was humiliated. Bunker’s hope was in his Army, but in the end he had to give in to the calls for Marines. He was a great man from WW-1 on. He was killed on Okinawa. There was a bay on the island named for him. this is all historical. It is also well documented that the war in the pacific was way worse than that in europe. The Germans would surrender the Japanese would not. It was hand to hand man to man. The most horrific war of Europe was the air war over Germany. The Air Force lost more that all Army casualties combined.
hey dxman, you want to hear some good stories about cowards? I got about 5,000 good coward stories. They were all stationed at Khe Sanh with the 26th Marines, and affraid to leave their perimeter to save fellow Marine and Army Americans.
Be careful the way you talk. Everyone has their own version of coward stories. But after reading your post, I know you have no first hand coward stories, because no one who was ever shot at, and shot back, derides anyone else who was ever under fire.
You’re just another garrett trooper who went to parris island and think your forebears actually tamed the world for the rest of us.
Bierut Bombing killed over 300 Marines enemy is not afraid to attack…all were blown to bits…
Congrat, you finally find one incident to back your claim of Marine superiority, feel better now? out of hundred of Army regiment that fought in the ww2 you found one. you need to dig up other battle that took place in the pacific like Burma, Philippines, Aleutian islands, Solomon island, new guinea. Speaking of the Japanese being more brutal we all know that there were more soldiers fighting the pacific than the Marine right? i thought the Marine only tell their story and could careless about other branch unless if the Army screw up then it get recorded in the Marine hall of record.
speaking of battle, what about Guadalcanal and peleliu? in Guadalcanal the Marine did not finished the Japanese, it was the Army that come in and finally defeated the Japanese it was not a mop up operation, and Peleliu the Marine could could not defeated the Japanese until the Army came in and finished the jobs, as i remember the Marine beloved commander quote, “i do not want to see Army green on this island” but Army green did come in. As far Okinawa 99% of the Japanese troop was in the south the Army Sector, yeah the Marine have no problem clearing there northern sector because there hardly any resistance.
Yeah getting kill mangles up, facing heavy firepower with better weapon and equipment from the German and get burn up in a tank is less brutal than getting shot in the pacific or facing banzai charge. it been proven that the German are not as tough as Japanese even though it took the Russian, Britain, France, Poland etc.. and finally U.S to defeat them. Not to mention the Russian crush the Japanese Manchuria Army within 2 weeks yet the Russian have difficult time with the Nazi.
The only thing I have to say about this. The Marines take a beach head at much loss of life and once the beach head is established the army relieves the marines for mop up operation.
The russians did not beat he Japanese in Manchuria. The 32 army Japans finest was transfered from Manchuria to defend Okinawa. Japan defeated the Russians, that is established historically. I believe the Army has great men as well. But, the author of this article clearly set out to attack the Marines. You should know that Marines don’t do well being attacked. Some army units had stellar performances at the Shuri line.
This whole thing is pretty stupid. All services serve a specific purpose. No one wants to steal the Army’s valor. However, for the ENTIRE history of the Marine Corps, someone has been trying to get rid of it (to include presidents). In order to survive the Corps has gained public support via a propaganda machine. No one is saying the Army can’t do the same. In order to be an effective fighting force, the Corps created the MAGTF so they roll into an area, they are there, with all aspects of the warfighting arsenal, to be victorious or at least hold the line until the larger occupying force (read Army) gets on deck. That is the Corps nitch.
HOWEVER…if we really want to do this “who is the better force” sort of argument let me ask you this. Have you EVER had a Marine say, “you know I wish I had/I was gonna join the Army but…”? Further, why is it that non-straight leg army types (Rangers and the like) are often the first ones to express their respect for how the Marines do business and their dislike of the regular army? In addition, why have Americas enemies intentionally avoided fighting the Marines (i.e. “don’t f&*K with the black boots” in Somalia refering to the Marines who wore speed laces while the Army wore deserts) and instead hit what they felt was a weaker force? Hell Marine’s don’t need to brag. For the last 22 years I have heard members of EVERY OTHER SERVICE doing it for them.
J8 – “In order to survive the Corps has gained public support via a propaganda machine.” That’s a heck of admission. America would love the Marines without the propaganda. No need to embellish or borrow another service’s accomplishments.
As for never hearing of guys going over to the Army what difference does that make? Why do you “Marines uber alles” types have to rely so much on anecdotal evidence to make your case when there are tons of materics that refute them. BTW, I’ve got a close friend who was a scout swimmer instructor who became a soldier and during my career have served with many Marines who became soldiers. I never took it as an admission that the Army is better. Just meant we’re different.
I’m one of those non straight leg Army infantry types and I respect the Marines I’ve served next to tremendously. (BTW, 0311 Marines are straight leg infantry buddy) They were mostly 0311s and MARSOC types. It’s the marine clerk talking about being a rifleman or superior to Army combat arms types that even cause their brethren 0311s to roll their eyes.
If you get any Rangers or such talking bad about the Army they are the young guys who have the same “issues” many Marines have that CONSTANTLY disparage the Army. As an Infantryman I have more in common with most Marines’ mindset than some support guys in the Army. Big deal! That doesn’t translate into the Marines are “better”. Different mission, sometimes different scope. I can’t do what I did as a grunt without the Army support guys and the Marines sure couldn’t do what they’ve been doing for a decade in Iraq & Afghanistan or did in Vietnam (Hue and Khe Sanh were relieved by the army), Korea (Pusan and Hungnam were held by the Army) or WWII (there were VERY few Marine ONLY landings) without teh Army or the support structure it provides.
The whole Somalia black boots thing is laughable. When did the Marines go into downtown Mogadishu and seize Aidid’s lieutenants? Heck when did they ever conduct a COMBAT patrol? Saying the Somalis had less respect for the Rangers resulting in the battle holds as much water as saying Saddam thought the Marines were a joke and is why he went into Khafji after the 82nd pulled back. Ridiculous! It’s this kind of BS that just throws oil on the fire.
I don’t for a second believe the Army is “better” than the Marines but you’re smoking something I never would if you think I’m going to let Marines systematically disparage my service and smile about it. You guys are upset because you aren’t used to being proved wrong in believing ALLl the BS you’ve been fed. Your reaction is to lash out instead of look at the facts. I would fight alongside you if anyone said roll the Corps into the Army. Dumb move! The Corps has some core competencies and culture that would not survive such an ill conceived concept. On the other hand when you promote the opposite or disparage my service to make you feel better about yours it’s hard to stay friendly. The Army and the Marines have a heck of a lot more in common than the Navy or Air Force nothing against those guys either. Marines inferiority complex is their worst enemy.
to no slack
There are only 2 kinds of people that know Marines. Marines and their enemies.
November 10, 1775 Marine Corps Birthday
Army Birthday? – No one knows
There in lies the difference between army and Marines. You have no history. Marine Corps instead of complaining about a lack of history they make it. Maybe the Army should consider that.
Dx – Well you are doing a good job of teaching us about “some” Marines.
The Army’s birthday? June 14, you probably don’t know that’s the same as Flag day. Using your logic the flag isn’t important becaue you don’t know the day it was adopted huh? Again, when you only read Marine history you only know what Marines think is important. BTW, who really knows what day the Marines B’day is? Do your own informal poll asking those that aren’t Marines.
As for the Army’s history you’d get farther if you knew some of it. It’s longer than the Marines, has more battles, victories, attacks, defenses, campaigns, wars, amphibious landings, airborne drops, helicopter assaults, armor battles, distances traveled, nations invaded/defended and we didn’t have to borrow ANY Marine accomplishments to make us look better nor do we have to talk bad about the Marines to make ourselves feel better.
I don’t support anyone that talks bad about the USMC but it seems you guys can’t do anything but talk about the Army in comparison and do it in a disparaging ways.
Sure sign of an inferiority complex.
Your history is way off, Japanese defeated the Russian in 1905 not 1945. Marine don’t like being attack but it ok to attack the Army right? The respond i got just proof my points, you guy will make up stories and say anything to protect your precious image. You can dish it out but can’t take it.
No i do not care to understand Marine, but i do care when the branch i served is being degraded. Anyway this stuff is getting old.
your grammer is getting old too take an english class man
What is history? Something you can learn from that happened in the PAST. As a former Sgt of Marines, history to both is ridiculous who cares what branch inflicted the most pain in what war. I watched a soldier leave a SAW in condition 1 outside a chow hall at any ghraib prison. Is this indicative of all soldiers stupidity and lack of situational awareness? NO. In a firefight, I don’t give a shit what a branch tag says on someone’s blouse. As long as that person is putting rounds down range. I joined the corps to fight the enemy as everyone else did. I joined because of family history and pride they had. Not bc of some dragon slaying commercial or the silent drill team throwing weapons. We need both branches separately. Marines are floating on every sea in the world ready to strike or help when needed. We all don’t always fight but what happens when a natural disaster strikes and marines are handing out water and food to families who lost everything. Where’s that side? Why would we want to combine them both? Both have illustrious history. The Marines I know and fought beside are proud of being Marines and not cocky about it bc we know what we did in the war and that’s all that matters to us. So SEMPER FI to you all…or does did we steal that too.
The authors article is an attack on the Marine Corps history and traditions. That is my point. Most people on this site are bad mouthing Marines including the Author. I too was Sgt of Marines. Best title I have ever had. General Pershing said the deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle. That is not made up. The Army has their role and so does the Marine Corps. All said anyone who served deserves respect. But it is unfair to attack Marines and their history/traditions. I am sure before joining the Army you knew of this bravado that Marines carried. These histories and traditions are what motivates Marines to perform. Not being critical of the Army but you guys use terms such as battle buddies. In the Marine Corps it is all for one, does not matter who is beside you in the fox hole, there is an understanding. I think it is great that the Army is changing their indoctrination to establish the warrior ethos. Some statements above claimed that Army boot camp was shorted because they did not have the amount of history lesson the Marines have. Perhaps that is not a bad thing having more history.
I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!
General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur; Korea, 21 September 1950
The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26 January 1952
There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
Google up famous Army or US Army quotes and see what you come up with.
The Marine Corps keeps track of history right, wrong or whatever. The purpose is to keep repeating that history that is taught. General Krulac said the MArine Corps has 2 purposes. Make Marines and win battles. When your most senior commander sums up the purpose of the Marine Corps in 1 sentence that is awesome. Even the hardest critics out there smiled at that statement. The Mission of the Marine Corps is even better summed.
The mission of the Marine Corps rifle/fire team
“Locate close with and destroy the enemy, or repel the enemies attack by fire and close combat”
They teach every Marine this boot camp. It is branded in your brain. No long statements. Just cutting straight forward frank orders.
Every Marine reading this regardless of how balanced you want to be is smiling right now. Probably some of you army guys to. That is fine we welcome all with open arms and promise to fight to the end for everyone.
Most post here were Marines making vile attacks on the Army.
Army quotes – “Duty, Honor, Country”, “Nuts”, and one of my favorites from Sgt Makuch and his recovery crew who were in a furious firefight surrounded by the remnants of an Iraqi company (-) trying to withdraw from the position we just obliterated when I asked him for a SITREP in the middle of a firefight, “Let me get back to you Sir, I’m fuckin’ ’em up!”
Marines don’t have a monopoly on history.
BTW, that mission statement was originally penned by the Army’s infantry. “The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack.” Ten companies of riflemen were authorized by the Continental Congress Resolve of 14 June 1775. So even the army’s infantry is older and has more “history” than the Marine Corps.
Every Soldier reading this regardless of how balanced you want to be is smiling right now. Probably some of you Marines to…
My goodness, what a mean-spirited attack on the Marine Corps. The account of Lang Vei is spectacularly superficial and misleading. Nice try, but I think the Marines’ place in history is secure.
What is inaccurate about the Lang Vei account?
The Marines at numerous meetings promised to send a relief force should the Army base be attacked. They did not. They did send reliefs to various Marine outposts. The Marines even refused to lift Army troops into Lang Vei after the attack was over. They had to be ordered.
It’s actually quite detailed. Is it “mean-spirited” because it’s accurate?
Wow, you have a serious case of Marine Corps envy. Don’t let it get you down though, the Army has made some great strides throughout the “War on Terror” over the last 10 years. Overall, the Army has become a little tougher, a little leaner, a little meaner, and is once again part of the US Military. For a while there through the 1990s, one had to wonder if the Army had become a liberal political machine instead of a war machine.
The Marine Corps is not an army, nor was it ever intended to be. If one goes back in history, before the name “Marine” was coined, Marines were referred to as “naval infantry” and fought ship boarding engagements as well as coastal raiding to seize whatever was deemed necessary. So, lighten up Francis, the Army is 20 times bigger than the Marine Corps, has 50 times bigger budget, and still dictates weapons development. Marines are bad asses because as a small force, usually outnumbered, they have to be. The Marines also hold with honored traditions and build upon Esprit de Corps. The Army has plenty to be proud of but they don’t seem to build on it, they always seem to lean to whatever political wind is blowing. Let the Army take a lesson from the Marines… celebrate victory, it comes at too high a cost to forget.
Tom – The Army has performed admirably the last decade. Only those that are ignorant of Army history would think it’s any tougher, leaner and meaner than it has been throughout its longer history. Ever heard of Valley Forge?
As for it being some liberal political machine you might want to check your six. Murtha and McGovern were Marines as well as notorious San Fransisco Marine Scott Olsen. here’s a picture of him with his poodle… http://weaselzippers.us/2011/10/28/iraq-war-veteran-injured-at-ows-oakland-founder-of-ihatethemarinecorps-com/
So lighten up Marie. We’re all proud of our respective branch though I’d agree that the Army spends less time building on their accomplishments than the Marines. Might be because we’ve been busy paying 80% of the bill in blood throughout our history to toot our horn.
like i have been saying dont have a problem with the army i just have a problem with the way the article is slanted against the army a good example is the way he states it in ww2 the marines are just island hoping causing problems with the progress in the war where as the army is doing the real fighting and the marines are just running around getting themselves killed which we both know thats not the case but lets just say it is the case the author later states the army is fighting along side the marines a few paragraphs later during the island hopping campaign so would that mean the army is just as stupid as the marines for running around hoping on islands and getting killed like the marines no of course not he states how much of an awesome job the army did hoping from island to island its just an anti marine article and therefore slanted against the marines and paints them in a bad way using half truths and inaccurate stories also yea marines do throw quotes in peoples faces but tell me this those quotes are all true the author talks about gen. pershing in ww1 yet leaves out what pershing thinks of the marines also he says president truman wants to get rid of the marines i wonder if thats because truman was an army officer and there was a bit of a rivalry there
Minsky – The article is not slanted. It does not support its conclusion but it’s not slanted. You are misstating and mischaracterizing what was said in the article and don’t prove ONE degree of “slant”!
The article doesn’t say the Marines were “just” island hopping or “causing problems”. Nor does it slight the Marine contribution to the Pacific. It makes the point that the Army was there, it captured/killed many more Marines and ran more efficient operations. The fact you walked away with a totally different understanding is just further proof you can’t share a spotlight or make your case. Debating the decision to have a split effort in the Pacific and the wisdom of CERTAIN island campaigns like Tarawa is not “slanted”. It’s “analysis”.
What Pershing said about the Marines (which you should specify) has nothing to do with the fact that the news blackout (an order) was disobeyed and did result in an inaccurate account of the campaign and the Marine contribution. That’s not slanted! That’s the truth!
Finally, whether Truman hated the Marines or not doesn’t make the article slanted. He’s reporting facts.
The ONLY point that is inaccurate in the article is saying the second flag raising at Iwo was staged. It was not. It was replacing the first flag with a larger one.
Everything else is an accurate retelling of HISTORY. The only way one can say it’s “slanted” is if you don’t know your history or are upset with the truth and don’t want to acknowledge it so you call it something else, “slanted”.
The better argument is the article doesn’t support the conclusion which I’d agree with. The fact that the Marines have engaged in the wholesale rewriting of history or taking Army accomplishments as their own doesn’t mean they should be rolled into the Army. Just because one lies doesn’t mean one shouldn’t exist.
The Marines’ forte is as a unique sea based expeditionary force. There’s plenty of history to support that and the case can be made that the Army could not do it more efficiently or maintain that capability with so many other competing requirements.
It is a slanted article. Of course you don’t think so because you’re a hooah pansy. It doesn’t matter about the history cause you can’t prove it. The only fact is, that the marines are better now, so end of discussion.
You’re only showing you’re shooting blanks by not providing any contrary facts.
Pansy? I’d place my record next to yours any day “leg”. Let’s not get personal when you can’t win the argument?
BTW, here’s one for Marines are better now… http://www.military.com/news/article/gay-marines-homecoming-kiss-goes-viral.html
Those were marines at valley forge. ha ha ha ha
Its superb as your other articles :D, regards for putting up.
I had origianlly put together a long list of refutations with supporting cites to counter what was said in the original article.
Then I realized that the author is so biased against the Marines that it wouldn’t make a difference to him.
So in short: I am very proud of my service to this country as a Marine and it means just as much to me as any Soldier’s, Sailor’s, or Airman’s.
And you should really be ashamed of yourself for being critical of every day Americans who served their country in the Corps. I don’t think any less of someone who chose the Army. You shouldn’t be critical of those of us who chose the Corps.
i wish you would put up that list from one marine to another semper fi
I would like to have seeen it also. Might not make a difference to the author but as someone interested in the facts I’d like to know where the author got it wrong because everything except the “staged” Iwo flag raising is well documented.
I suspect as one tried to refute the author’s facts that one learned they were facts. Subsequently one takes refuge in the appropriate pride of wearing a uniform of the United States.
Uncle Sam, I apologize for those small minded individuals that attacked the choice of an American to join the Corps. Unfortunately many more attack Americans that choose to join the Army.
which bother you more was it the grammar or the statement? probably the statement. i see you have Nothing to dispute what i wrote.
whats up, love your blog about small business vehicle deductions
Wow I don’t know where you’re getting your info but you’re full of shit. One way I know Is that the marines don’t have chaplains dump ass.
Obviously your probably some pansy ass soldier that has beef with the corps cause you know they are better.
Merging the marines and army wouldn’t do shit for cost. The navy, army, air force get a certain amour of money in their budget. The navy gets more money simply because of the marine corps. The army only wants to merge with the marines is for the extra money. Standards would be lowered if they merged. The united states needs marines just like we need special forces.
Who are you talking to?
BTW, Marines don’t have medical personnel either. Is there a point there?
Who (name a name please) in the Army wants to merge the Army and Marines? Are you being frightened by one article that doesn’t support that conclusion very well?
The author talks about a marine chaplains… So obviously he doesn’t know what he is talking about. It’s a one sided argument that isn’t backed by any factual evidence. Anyone can make shit up. Whether or not marines took credit for army accomplishment doesn’t matter cause he can’t prove it. As well as army can do the same thing. How do I know army history isn’t bullshit? It’s probably the worst blog I have ever read and just as pointless.
Unfortunately I’m not allowed to release certain information. However in a more recent account the army leaders has been wanting to get the marine with them, not merging but a department of the army so that they would receive more money. For all I know that report is false but a buddy of mine at the pentagon has told me something along those lines. He is a soldier by the way that always tells me he wished he would have joined the corps around the time I did.
I don’t agree with the author’s conclusion nor does he do a good job of making the case for rolling the Corps into the Army.
On the other hand a strong case can be made for the Corps claiming achievements it didn’t earn. If you place USMC in front of any of the following battles you’ll find untrue claims of Marine achievement: Battle of Trenton, Anchoring Andrew Jackson’s line at New Orleans, Storming the Castle of Chapultepec, Defending the Bataan Peninsula and many more discussed in the thread. Those claims are in some supposedly reliable pubs like the Marine Corps Gazette yet after some cursory cross checking there are some pretty large fibs. If nothing else for that alone the thread is worth reading though it really has devolved into the trash heap sometimes.
As for current efforts to roll the Corps into the Army I wouldn’t stress over it. It’s not going to happen for a myriad of reasons. Rumors like that are always kicked around and it really shows a level of insecurity in one’s service to take them seriously. The Marines aren’t going anywhere.
BTW, I know a force recon CPT who came into the Army and is very happy as a SSG in Special Forces. I also have a friend I respect tremendously who left the corps as a scout swimmer instructor and came to the Army where he was hurt in a jump ending his career. A real shame. GREAT GUY! So anyway, don’t believe everything and everyone you hear.
With the city cordoned off, efforts were made to suggest that the Coalition attack would come from the south and southeast as had occurred in April. Instead, I MEF intended to assault the city from the north across its entire breadth. On November 6, Regimental Combat Team 1, consisting of the 3rd Battalion/1st Marines, 3rd Battalion/5th Marines, and the US Army’s 2nd Battalion/7th Cavalry, moved into position to assault the western half of Fallujah from the north.
They were joined by Regimental Combat Team 7, made up of the 1st Battalion/8th Marines, 1st Battalion/3th Marines, and the US Army’s 2nd Battalion/2nd Infantry which would attack the eastern part of the city. These units were joined by Iraqi troops as well. With Fallujah sealed, operations began on at 7:00 PM on November 7, when Task Force Wolfpack moved to take objectives on the west bank of the Euphrates River opposite Fallujah. While Iraqi commandoes captured Fallujah General Hospital, Marines secured the two bridges over the river to cut off any enemy retreat from the city.
Wrong again. They weren’t leading anything. They came from a different direction but 1st MEF was in charge of the operation.
One 2-7 Cav was in front of 3/1 on its axis of advance, it led. 2-2 IN let 1/3 use its breach point because the Marines were bogged down. It later was held up at F PL Fran and again at PL Heather so 1/8 Marines could catch up and then 2-2in conducted a passgae of lines through 1/8 Marines at 1710 13 Nov. A passage of lines by definition is one unit passing through another to continue the fight. 2-2 was in front of 1/8. It’s that sim[ple.
I’ve cited the history. If you want to say 1st MEF “led” because it was in charge I would remind you and Army General commanded in Iraq at the time so I guess he “led”. You’re twisting yourself in knots to not admit Army units were in front of and in contact with enemy units.
I’m sorry but if your bitch as decided to join the marines you would have to go through our boot camp. If I decided to go into the army I would probably get promoted. Oh and with 1/3 the size of the army somehow we protect the white house and every U.S. Embassy in the world. Our physical standards are higher and our training is longer. Trust me I spent 3 at months at fort sill. The trainig I saw there was a joke. Please let me here your argument on why the army is better and don’t tell me because of sheer numbers.
Never said the Army was “better”. That’s a silly argument. We do different things. As for Embassy’s, big deal. The White House is guarded by the secret service. The Marines aren’t armed. They are ceremonial and they look good standing there. The Army guard’s the tomb of the unknown soldier. The Army flag is farthest to the right in ceremonies. They march first in parades. SO WHAT!!!
PT? Only the run is longer and depending on what unit you are in the Army the standard varies.
Boot camp is longer? Again so what and why? More attention to dril and ceremonies and history. Big whoop. It’s cool but that doesn’t make you “better”. You can jump up and down and whine. It’s not going to make a difference. Number of battles, awards, decorations, contributions etc. matter. You’re brain washed.
And as for the gay Marine, consider the equivalent of what you saw at Sill. A stand alone example.
What does a gay marine have anything to do with being better?
Typical army answer. Beating around the bush and not really answering the question. I’m saying equal numbers same gear marines win in a fight. Because marines are better trained you didn’t mention anything about the army being better at anything. Leading in parades doesn’t make army better.
Hard to find an example of what you’re saying. Combat is never the same. Marine and Army units aren’t the same. Marine units are 30% larger. Our equipment isn’t the same. E.G..AAVP7s vs Bradleys in Falujah.
If you insist that they are why did the Army get to Bagdad before the Marines?
I agree about parades. It’s just as silly as saying one “guards” the White House “unarmed”. BTW, Marine detachments at embassies work for the DSS who provide for the personal security of the Ambassador and dictate what Marine detachments do at Embassys. I’d really not recommend hanging my military prowess at guarding embassies though. Where were the Marines when they blew up the Beruit, Kenyan and Tanzania? Who was guarding the embassy at Tehran when it was captured? I don’t think any of those debacles reflect on the Corps as a whole but you wanted to discuss guarding embassies.
First of all I don’t consider embassy duty the reason why we are better, but it must stand for something…why not use soldiers. Your argument on the army being better now because they took Bagdad is stupid. First of all it was 1st marines that lead the way into Iraq and paved a clear path for the army to take Bagdad. Of course the marines could have taken it but Army Gen Tommy Franks wouldn’t allow the marines to take it when his beloved army could. So he did what any army general with marines under his command would do; let the marines do the dirty work and then let the army finish, to take credit for the victory. I find it funny that this article talks about the marines taking credit for army accomplishments but the army did that with the Iraq invasion. If you think I’m making shit up maybe you should watch HBO’s mini series called Generation Kill. 1st marine recon was the furthest unit north in Iraq. Where was the army? Thats right, behind the Marines like they usually are.
Oh and your defense on the Jessica Lynch topic about the army not saving her because the were too busy going to Bagdad is crap. She along with 5 other soldiers of the 507th maintenance were captured on march 23rd. You guys didn’t reach Bagdad until April 4th and secure it until April 9th. Those 12 days couldn’t provide you time to rescue your fellow soldiers. The truth of the matter is: the United States military sent in the Marines for 2 reasons. One, they wouldn’t risk the lives of Navy Seals nor any other special forces unit to save the lives of 6 Army Maintenance Goo Rouses that could easily be replaced by an 18 year old moron. So the 2nd reason would be that it would leave it up to army grunts or Marine grunts and obviously Gen Franks trusted the marines more. Also on the topic of Jessica Lynch and the 507. I cant think of one time where a marine unit ran away from a fight or any marine being captured in this war. If you know of any please let me know. The fact is 33 soldiers were apart of that convoy. 11 unfortunately died, 6 were captured, that means 16 of them ran away leaving their fellow comrades there to die. I don’t know what is more of a disgrace. The fact that they weren’t combat ready, running away, or lying about the entire thing. I would love to hear what you have to say about this.
I don’t even know why I’m so worked up over the comments of someone who is probably an army specialist that has been in for 2 years and done nothing but sit behind a desk.
Negative on a bunch of fronts hard charger. It probably starts with using generation kill as a historical document….1st Recon can say they were the furthest north. Well, no. That would have actually been the 173rd. Now you can say ‘different fight’ and you would be correct.
To suggest the Army (as well as the Britts) didnt have their own screen forward of the MLR is ridiculous. And at the small unit level, theres no way ANY line guy and a rolling stone reporter are going to have ANY clue about who the hell os where…especially a completely different task force…
As far as the embassies comment, its pretty simple. TRADIOTIONALLY the USMC is Americas forward deployed force. As in Americas extended reach. This goes back to the original drafting of the constitution stipulated no standing Army, but made full provisions for a standing Navy. It has nothing to do with ‘whos better’.
Lastly, about Lynch. Firstly, to call her comrades shameful is wrong. A bunch of poorly armed POGs who had never seen combat got schwacked. 18, 20 year old kids whod never been in a fight, nor any NCO’s who had, were outgunned simply. As far as who saved her, look at the map…..whos AO was she in when they got her? Saying the Seals couldnt be bothered, but the Rangers could? Either way, rhe whole rescue of her was overkill and almost theater. Was anyone even guarding her? So lets not make it some huge battle streamer…..if you want to mention the Apache guys 3rd LAR saved in Iraq thats a difderent story (which im suprised no one has mentioned….then again I het the feeling the majority here arent connected, just scouring google for ammo….)
Bottom line, a lot of these simple questions about who does what and why they do it are explained quite simply. Why doesnt the Marine Corps have an airborne element? Why doesnt the Army have a seaborne element? Why does the Army train Marine tankers and artillery guys? (Because the schools are already in place, it saves money).
Hey stop crying, it just an article, even though it is mostly true there no needs to get butt hurt over it. hahaaha
I’m not arguing the Army is better. That’s the SECOND time I’ve said that to you specifically, retention an issue? YOU brought up the embassy guard duty. I just reminded you of some stellar events. You can’t have it both ways. Claiming it makes one better and not explaining what a great job Marines did at the mentioned inidents doesn’t fly.
As for the Marines “blazing the way” to Baghdad… uh, you know they were on the other side of the euphrates?
As for Franks keeping the Marines from getting to Bagdad first, how did he do that exactly? Why did Gen Mattis relieve COL Dowdy for not moving fast enough? That’s the army’s fault? Generation Kill? You really want to cite that as a source? Some really great officers in that unit according to that story. BTW, the 173rd was in northern Iraq as well as the Rangers in Haditha if you want to talk about where units where let alone the front line trace of Army recon elements.
Jessica Lynch? You’re totally ignorant and have no concept about what happened. You’re making it up so bad that you are just out and out lying (which is what this whole thread is about, Marines lying).
Read The Battle of An-Nasiriyah by Colonel Rod Andrew Jr., USMC
TF Tarawa planned to take Nasiriyah 6 Feb p.6 (that’s 2 MONTHS before the 23 Mar Nasiriyah battle started!). Btwn 15-17Mar plan was upgraded to “be prepared” mission p6. 22 Mar Gen Natonski recieved orders to execute “be prepared” mission AND relieve the 3rd ID unit at the bridge EAST of Nasiriyah.(p7) Relief conducted at 0300. The 3ID tank company raced to catch up with the lead elements of the division which were 130 miles NORTH of Nasiriyah. (p8).
The Marines weren’t sent to Nasiriyah for the 507th. They were ordered to go there before the 507th was even ambushed. You would have the world believe the Marines were psychic and knew the 507th was going to get ambushed? Too bad they didn’t know the situation at Al Kut. That kind of intel would have saved some Marine lives.
507th wasn’t part of 3rd ID. It was maint co for a Patriot Bty (Corps asset). It was traveling at the tail end of a 600 vehicle convoy when it lost contact AND commo 22 Mar. How would 3ID let alone the rest of the Army magically know a Corps asset had been ambushed in the Marine AO w/no commo w/the convoy let alone the unit? So Gen Franks could order the Marines to the rescue eventhough they had been orderered to the city already? BRILLIANT!!!
First unit to learn 507th’s fate were 1-2 Marines because it happened in THEIR sector. The first and only units besides the 507th involved in any fighting in Nasiriyah were Marines that were already enroute to take Nasiriyah. The orders to rescue the 507the came from Gen Natonski who pulled LTC Grabowski (1-2 USMC CDR) aside and said, “Rickey, you have to do whatever you can to find those missing soldiers. They would do it for us, and we need to do it for them.” p8
Gen Franks wasn’t in the decision cycle.
NOTE: I used a Marine source because it’s obvious you can’t read anything else and put you in the position of having to say a Marine officer is lying or doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Oh, you’re getting worked up because I’m taking apart your arguement lie by lie. No one likes getting caught BSing.
I’m not crying. The author is being a whiny bitch just like the rest of you hooahs. There is no historical facts backing his statements. I bet you wouldn’t have the balls to say that to my face.
Is this the part where everyone rolls up their sleeves and turns in to internet tough guy?
I just want to know so I dont get punched through the internet. Which could totally happen any of us type the wrong thing
whiny bitch cliterousboy shut up asshole faggot. Living in grandma’s basement is getting to u u retard. U are a disgrace to the USMC.
I am, for the record, a proud Navy Vet and am tired pussy scum like you Cliterisboy trying to put down other men’s service and the nearly 1 million dead Army troops who have defended and died for our great nation since 1775.
Pussy asshole cliterisboy, please note my brother was severely wounded serving in Iraq with the Army during a mission rescue to save Marines in An Najaf. Because you pussies were too weak to do and complete the mission he lost his leg but he and his unit rescued the marines who had called the Army for help. My brother received the Bronze Star for his gallantry.
In my Navy career I have been forced to beat the hell out a couple of marines who ran their mouths just like you cliterisboy. Shut your faggot mouth up pussy asshole or come visit me me in San Diego and be prepared to humiliated in person.
Did you even read my statement moron. I didn’t say anything about the marines going there for the 507 or rescue them from an ambush. I said they rescued them from being captive. Gem Frank was in charge of all operations in Iraq. The only one he took doers from was Bush. Are you telin it was impossible for him to tell those belong to make sure they got to bagdad first. And first marine recon was at the tip of the spear when it came to the invasion. Were there Other units… Yeah no shit.have you even been in the military or are you some army brat that sits in his parents basement playing MW3 all day. And I’m capable Of reading things other the marine corps material. I know all about the 507 and I figured since you know everything (because you were there right) I didn’t have to fill in every detail. Sounds like to mean you suffer from diarrhea of the mouth and marine envy.
You want to focus on my credentials vs the issue at hand? What are your credentials sweet pea? Be assured I know what I’m talking about from firsthand experience, over 20 years in uniform and quite a bit of study. Contrast that with I’m betting you aren’t even an 0311 and if so have all of two years in uniform and one deployment. Let’s not compare records. You are going to be embarrassed.
You have a writing AND retention problem. You did mention Jessica Lynch. “She along with 5 other soldiers of the 507th maintenance were captured on march 23rd. You guys didn’t reach Bagdad until April 4th and secure it until April 9th. Those 12 days couldn’t provide you time to rescue your fellow soldiers.” Remember?
Again, the majority of the Army was north fighting the war. Delta, SEALs, PJs and Rangers rescued Jessica Lynch when the Marines got intel of a location beyond enemy lines. The rest were rescued by Marines. Why would the Army stop and send troops into the marine sector to find the other five if first no one knew where they were and secondly there was little doubt the Marines couldn’t handle it? Making this sound as some black mark against the Army would be like saying the Marines couldn’t handle the raid at Cabanatuan so the Army did it. Get real. The Marines were occupied elsewhere. Only a moron would think it’s not the right thing to rescue American troops whatever uniform they are wearing. Just because we work together doesn’t mean one side is weak. The fact that the Army assited or relieved Marines at Khe Sanh, Hue and Falujah doesn’t mean the Marines are weak. Only denying it makes one sound weak.
Your Franks point is ridiculous. You can’t cite one fact as to how he slowed down the Marines or why Gen Mattis fired Col Dowdy. Let’s say your twisted logic is right. I guess the Marines were led by the Army at Falujah because they were working for Gen Metz US ARMY in late ‘04. See, I told you, the Army led the marines in Falujah! (That’s sarcasm just showing how silly and ridiculous you’re being).
This whole article is a lie. I’m sorry but you know Wikipedia isn’t a reliable source right?
Uh true, niether are you by the lack of facts you present.
Well ispent 4 years in the marines but couldn’t reenlist due to having 2 lung surgeries and knee surgery. I deployed 3 times and served with men that were part of the invasion. No I was not part of it but new a lot of men that were. At least none of us surrendered, ran away or was captured. The army can’t say that. You know what I don’t even care anymore. I didn’t even have beef with the army until I read this stupid blog. I just think its funny that you soldiers talk shit behind our backs and online, but when face to face kiss our ass and talk about how great we are. I know cause my sister is dating a formal soldier right now and dated 2 others prior to him and she says they all talk shit to her when I’m not there. But none of them had the balls to say it to my face.
Well on one hand I appreciate your service even if you want to malign the Army. I guess it takes all types.
There are examples of Marines breaking contact or withdrawing e.g 7 Aug “04 Najaf. To the marines credit there have been no examples of Marines surrendering but like I said no battle is the same. No Marine maintenance unit has been engaged in a fight where they were outnumbered and the enemy had tanks. I do know a heck of alot more soldiers have died for America than Marines ever have but who’s counting right. They’re just soldiers right?
Don’t want to bring your sister into it but you did note she’s “dating” soldiers even when her brother is a Marine? I’d be happy to share my perspective face to face if you ever get down to Columbus Ga. or Ft. Benning.
I would have likes to have kept this a respectful conversation. You might want to go back when you aren’t so upset and note where you started becoming insulting when you were losing the argument.
You’re a joke. I can’t believe you think that the marine is so one sided and biased and lies about everything but the army is so truthful an honest, and could never lie. I’m the one that is brainwashed. You’re ass has been supporting mediocrity for 20 years. Hell your football team has lost 7 years in a row to navy. Sure does show your future officers physical superiority. The last time army’s football team was good was around the same time the actually army was any good.
Yes, football teams have a real bearing on the matter. You know the Army has beaten the Marines specifically for 20 years in a row in boxing. Ever heard of the sport? What was that about mediocrity and 20 years?
Getting back to the matter, no I never said some in the Army weren’t biased or less than truthful. My only point has been that the Marines have at times taken credit for things they didn’t do. It’s that simple.
So far all I see is half-truths and almost everything is taken out of context. First off I can tell NONE of you are among the more “Elite” groups you talk about. Here is how I know:
1) You will not find Special Forces, Rangers, ID Recon, Pararescue, SEALs, or Delta Force talking this kind of trash to each other.
2) 75% of the people in all branches hide behind the accomplishments of the above listed groups; taking the glory as their own.
3) History and current events are always up to interpretation depending on where you are viewing the issue from.
For reference my MOS is 68W-W1 and I really do not care which branch you are in as long as you put your mission and team first. As for the mouthy Marine and Marine want-a-be’s, I suggest you not talk like this to any seasoned Vet from any of the fore mentioned groups to include your fellow ID Recons as they will forcefully put you in your place for disrespecting any member of the fore mentioned groups.
Doc – The Spec Ops have done yoeman’s work but they aren’t the only ones. Dogface Infantry along with the other combat arms have been carrying the lionshare of the load over the last decade’s fight. You failed to mention them and their 12 month tours. There’s plenty of battles where the “glory” belionged to folks not in the spec ops community (Anaconda, Wanat, the march to Baghdad and dozens of cities in Iraq and Afghanistan). They just don’t worry about the press,
I agree with you that many non combat arms types “cheer” the victories of those you mentioned. I just wouldn’t limit it to those. Spec Ops types are studs but there are quite a few that don’t live on the FOB and do the up close dirty work day in and out. Some get recognized for their service like SSG Guinta, PFC MCGinnis and SFC Smith (all Medal of Honor recipients and not a ranger, delta or SF between them).
History has a certain level of interpretation to it but there are some facts that just can’t be interpreted. I’ve tried to be positive in all my posts here. not everyone has and at times I may have been guilty of reflecting some troll’s attitude.
I don’t think this thread has been all bad. I do think some good has come of it. I don’t dislike Marines in general and have several friends that wear the EGA. I’d agree though that those that have seeen a green tracer or two have a bit more respect for sister branches.
Appreciate all you do. Gotta love our medics. – a retired Infantryman
Majrod, I agree there are a lot of truths being distributed in this thread. However, anyone who has actually participated in a few campaigns will see that not all the facts about a given situation ever reach light. Most of the time it is the ones in political position deciding what will be considered “truth”. Personally I respect everyone who puts on the uniform and does their job with professionalism. As for the history of events, I am seasoned enough to say this, I was not there and can only truthfully account for what I have witnessed.
In regards to Infantrymen, they deserve quite a bit of acknowledgment from all branches not enduring the rigors of a combat arms unit. With that said it is usually the basic infantry man looking up to the more “elite” and sharing in their pride: Infantry to Airborne Infantry to Rangers to Delta and base Marine Infantrymen to Recon etc.
Being an Infantryman is something to be proud of Majrod, especially since every MOS sings cadences about your merits and always will; never forget that.
RTLW
I can absolutely agree there’s two sides to a story and interpretation has a role. The relief of Gen Smith at Saipan is an excellent example.
I think for the first time marines have been hearing the army side in this thread in regard to many Marine achievements/accomplishments. The Marines have a lot to rightly be proud of. They don’t need to make anything, take credit for Army achievements or make a point to not discuss the Army when we accomplish things together.
The thread has gotten heated because some on both sides just don’t want to acknowledge it. Though I honestly have to say Marines are more guilty of it. They have a lot of esprit and pride and sometimes that doesn’t come out in a positive manner. It’s a shame too many think they are the only ones that are proud of their service.
Well if that’s what you and this author believe that’s fine. Children believe in Santa claus, because their parents tell them he is real. However the parents themselves do not believe it. Some marine corps stories aren’t factual but who says that the marine corps claims it to be. Just cause some dumb columnists writes something in a magazine or paper doesn’t mean the marine corps claims it. That would be like the army claiming what this guy says is factual
That’s probably the most reasonable thing you’ve said.
Don’t agree with everthing you just said because some of those over the top and/or untrue claims are in official Marine pubs (you gotta take responsibility for an official document).
BTW, I have problems with some of the author’s points and conclusions and have stated so several times. It’s all good. Glad you could see it my way 🙂
She dates soldiers because it’s either that or airman. No navy or marines unless they are a weekend warrior. Plus she would never dare date a marine. Her ego is big enough. I respect all service members even you. I have a close friends in all branches except coast guard. I know more soldiers have died because they have been a larger force since their existence. Of course more are gonna die in wars, but I don’t find it amusing that you mock their deaths. When I talk about the Jessica lynch thing I said unfortunately 11 died. I didn’t mock their sacrifice. And I told you I didn’t have beef with the army before this. My best friend just got out if the air force recently and he is the one who sent me this link. He said I would find it amusing. All it did was piss me off. It wasn’t just the authors view that pissed me off it was the comments made by your fellow soldiers. Then it from me wanting to have an educated debate to just wanting to talk shit and you happened to be the one to respond first.
I wasn’t mocking their deaths. I was demonstrating your absurd views about the Army (do I really need to quote some of the things you’ve said?).
True the Army has been a larger force. It has rarely been 80% of our total armed forces yet has suffered 80% of our fallen for over 235 years. Why not just give the army credit vs. having to minimize it in some way? Your sister isn’t the only one with an ego.
Granted some soldiers have made very stupid comments. They are dwarfed by the number of Marine comments that were just as stupid, low or just hateful. You have to get past the “Marine Uber Alles” thing. It’s not only wrong when soldiers talk crap. One can never expect a standard from others if one isn’t first willing to live it. You know that.
I didn’t take anything away from the army. I’m not the one saying army’s history is false and misleading. I’m not being egotistical… I’m being defensive. And like I said it turned personal and I was just looking to fight. I know you are going to say that is having an ego but I’m not the only sounding like I have an ego
This is a good post Cltmstrmn. Keep in mind this though, although you are not saying the Army’s history is false or misleading you are also not defending the Army either; goes both ways. There is nothing wrong with the pride (or ego) you carry, just be careful not to let it make you biased or you become guilty of the very issue you are accusing the Army guys of.
Here is an example of why this thread has provoked a defensive reaction on both sides, “Marines are first to fight”. Only true if you disregard the multiple SOCOM forces behind the lines before anyone else knew there was a need for the Marines. See how taking a portion of the truth out changes the context? Marines are typically the first to respond (depending on the mission and terrain) due to their increased size over SOCOM units and they can be sent anywhere for a short period of time before War must be declared. After that the Army’s massive combat groups become the dominating force; supported by both the Navy and Air force. So do Marines deserve credit? Yes. Do they deserve to take all the credit by implying they are always the “first to fight”? No
Doc – It’s not just SOCOM. Desert Storm had the 82nd, Panama had the the 7th, 5th IDs and Separate brigades, Korea had TF Smith (24th ID).
I agree and most of mine have be asinine. However, the article is what started the whole thing. Its slanted pro army and anti marine. How do you expect marines (who thrive on the history and other things) to react to something like this that d
I agree and most of mine have be asinine. However, the article is what started the whole thing. Its slanted pro army and anti marine. How do you expect marines (who thrive on the history and other things) to react to something like this that doesn’t actually have any factual evidence proving what this autor claims. To me it’s just hear say.
Majrod, you get the idea for the statement I was targeting and I never said SOCOM was the only ones in before the Marines. Not to mention I was not going to draw in another historical debate over one slogan.
Nah, just making sure the “ordinary guy” tabbed grunts get some love.
I’m quite confident you personally have no issues with the combat arms types of the “big Army” but if you read the thread there are some Marines that separate the Army special ops community from their general derision of the Army. My comments are targeted more at that group of mental midgets. The ARMY deserves the same level of respect marines expect of their branch. Plain and simple.
Majrod, on that note the Army need to put in more effort on their PR image, more emphasis on tradition and history. whether you want to admit it or not the Marine is running a PR image race with the Army. some of the reason are to justify their existence, get better funding, to get support from the public, which is a huge a moral booster, (majority of the public definitely have more love for a Marine than soldier that for sure) and to get recruit to join with less benefit. all of which is working for them. they know how to sell themselves.
my evidence of low moral in the Army is when the general decided to go all out the on black Barret for regular joe, which to me is indication of the issue.
The Marine culture of belittling and not giving credit to the Army, down play our contribution does have it effect on regular Army troop, not all but it there.
what your thought on this?
Great issue. It’s always bothered me also. I concede hands down the Marines do a much better job at publicity. No doubt! Everything they do from recruiting commercials, to ensuring media coverage in combat, to OKing projects with Hollywood and playing the political games of Washington demonstrates their clear superiority in getting publicity and managing their image.
IMO the Army’s deepest cultural values have much to do with this lack of emphasis. The Army was THE vehicle that secured the nation’s freedom. When George Washington was offered control of the nation by the Army he turned it down and forever established an apolitical tradition and relationship of the Army being the nation’s ultimate guardian. This is actually quite unique considering every other nation’s history on the planet. The Army will never be a threat to its civilian masters and goes far and beyond what other services do to keep itself from getting politically embroiled. Consider when the Marines were foolishly being considered for incorporation into the Army they went as far as to create a committee to work against the commander in chief. The Navy did something similar when airpower was threatened. The Army has endured MASSIVE cuts and even the relief of icons like MacArthur (not a personal favorite) with barely a whimper. We still do. The Army is paying the overwhelming majority of the drawdown bill both as an individual service and proportional to all the services. In fairness to the Marines and the Navy there are ways to reach out to the American people. How they did it was questionable.
Next, the Army is the most egalitarian of our services. We welcome everyone. Of all the services it has the least elitist attitude. One can see this tradition throughout our history with its composition often including the least desirable of Americans e,g. the Irish during the Civil War, Blacks served on the frontier when they had few other opportunities and even Japanese when they were nationally excoriated after Pearl Harbor.
Accordingly the Army has never devoted resources to marketing itself as an elite organization or anything else but guardians of the constitution and the nation. Not sexy but that’s who we are and as an organization the Army is quite happy to fall back into its traditional role out of the limelight.
Another contrast in culture can be demonstrated by comparing the two services mottoes. The Marine motto is Semper Fidelis. From the official Marine.com site “Semper Fidelis distinguishes the Marine Corps bond from any other. It goes beyond teamwork—it is a brotherhood that can always be counted on. Latin for “always faithful,” Semper Fidelis became the Marine Corps motto in 1883. It guides Marines to remain faithful to the mission at hand, to each other, to the Corps and to country, no matter what.” Note the priority, mission, each other, Corps and THEN country.
US Army motto? “This we’ll defend.” Pretty simple! Not much emphasis on the individual or the service in the least. Not really a driving force to glorify the Army, track its accomplishments, publicize them etc.
I’ll address the other issues in separate but shorter posts.
Major Rod,
Been a long time since my last reply. Been out earning a living. I have been following from a far and finally have time to respond. It’ll take a couple of posts to get back in the thread so bear with me.
The article presented has raised some great issues for discussion (all the name calling aside.)
In this time of Defense reassessment and budget issues, all the services are having to do some soul searching about their reasons for existence. Again, great issues to explore hear amongst professionals.
Also, I’ve seen some poor posts mostly from those purporting to be Marines.
To those Marines: if you have nothing intelligent to contribute to this thread keep your soup coolers closed. If you have nothing to support your assertions then do some research and add your voice and acknowledge when a point has been made. If you’re just going to call someone names, sack up and go down to the local bar and do it face to face with someone . This is an intellectual conversation between professional Soldiers and Marines.
Major Rod,
Agree with you on the recruiting, public relations and politics. Over the course of history there have been many successes. In recruiting, it’s always the organization that best captures what it is all about in its communications to prospective recruits seeking that environment. The Marine Corp’s message has been we’re selective, we have a high standard, and we like to fight
“First to Fight” has always implied to me the culture of the Marine Corps to always be the first to raise your hand to go in where there is trouble, to go towards the sound of the gunfire rather than away. With that said, I won’t argue the point of the historical validity of who has been the first to fight in every conflict. Going back to the author’s starting point of the World War I as the genesis of friction between the Army and the Marine Corps however, does prove my point of the aggressive nature of the Marine Corps culture. General Barnett, the Commandant worked every bolt to get the Marines in the fight as soon as possible. He achieved this over the objections and refusal of the American Expeditionary Commander, General Pershing. (This is definitely a separate discussion as to why an American General would refuse trained and organized combat troops when we scrambling to assemble forces to send to Europe?)
Other Recruiting slogans follow that same line:
“Ready, Join”
“Want Action, Join”
“Let’s Go”
“The Few, The Proud, The Marines”
“We Never Promised You a Rose Garden”
But, let’s be clear – these aren’t slogans without accomplishments to support them. These are a reflection of what our organization stands for and symbolizes.
In the last portion of your post you state something that needs some clarification
“Another contrast in culture can be demonstrated by comparing the two services mottoes. The Marine motto is Semper Fidelis. From the official Marine.com site “Semper Fidelis distinguishes the Marine Corps bond from any other. It goes beyond teamwork—it is a brotherhood that can always be counted on. Latin for “always faithful,” Semper Fidelis became the Marine Corps motto in 1883. It guides Marines to remain faithful to the mission at hand, to each other, to the Corps and to country, no matter what.” Note the priority, mission, each other, Corps and THEN country.”
I don’t see in the statement that it says “here is the priority starting with greatest to least.”
I am always faithful to my mission as so ordered by the superiors placed over me
I am always faithful in service with my fellow Marines
I am always faithful as a member of the Marine Corps and title holder of Marine
I am always faithful in service to my country both as a Marine and as a citizen.
I wasn’t trained and neither were my fellow Marines that any of these were in conflict or came before the service to my country.
The Army Motto “This We’ll Defend” is excellent and in line with the purpose first envisioned as a “Citizens’ Army. We as all citizens should have that same view as well.
To say that “Semper Fidelis” is a self-serving motto goes a bit far -To be faithful – Strict or thorough in the performance of duty – true to one’s word, promises, vows, etc…steady in one’s allegiance, or affection, loyal, constant – reliable.
There would be confusion however given some of the Army’s recruiting pitches like “Be All You Can Be” (implying live up to your potential, but not ours) and “Army of One..”
The general public cna readily identify those slogans (both Marine and Army) and are familiar with the Marine Corps motto. I would bet good money they would not know the Army’s motto.
Major Rod,
The middle portion of your post I think is dead on – the Marine Corp’s strength (like the Navy) is sometimes being so hidebound to tradition. You see that carriedthrough generation to generation – Old Breed to New Breed. Not always good, not always bad!
The Army is the nation’s Armed Service. When we go to war, we mobilize and the Army is the largest. When we demobilize, the Army tends to shrink the most.
The Army is the most egalitarian. The Marine Corps being the last of the Armed Services to integrate African Americans reflects poorly. SInce then however, the culture has become and has been for the longest time that “we’re all green.”
The Armed Services as a whole have tended to lead society at large in social change issues.
I think we both agree both services have different purposes in their organization and deployment. As with you, the Army has a great story to tell, I don’t understand why they don’t tell it.
As you stated the Army isn’t always in the limelight, but it is the constant – we will always have an Army and we will always need an Army.
Simple Marine – Great posts. Singlehandadly you raise the level of discourse. I’d add my comments to yours to the few brash out of control soldiers who cross the line to bash Marines with invective and hate. It’s not productive and I’d encourage them to return to the rear where most of them served when and “if” they wore the uniform (it’s a fact that those that served in the safest locales are often the loudest).
Agree with much of what you said but I will speak to “Semper Fidelis”. It’s a great motto and I have no doubt you have your priorities straight but not so for many in the Corps. E.G. The out of control bashing of other services does place the Corps above others but is NOT helpful to the nation as a whole. It’s never positive when someone bashes another service to elevate theirs. Professional respectful discussion of roles is valid. We’re way past that.
Some of this misguided priority culture has fueled some of the worst behavior by the most senior Marines. The formation of a secret committee to counter the CIC is a sin (even if Truman was being an idiot). If not where does one draw the line? Disagreeing with the CIC when asked by Congress is required by our duty ethic. Secret Committees? No. Gen H.M. Smith’s attitude about the Army, lies about the tardy recovery of a COL Conroy at Makin and his relief of Gen Smith at Saipan can be seen as stemming from that Marine ethos of USMC Uber Alles. He never commanded troops in combat again and published a highly critical biography (even when fellow Marines asked to edit it). This one man’s impact has been felt for half a century as only recently has the Army has ever placed its troops under a Marine General. COL Lownds abandoned soldiers at Lang Veigh and Gen Cushman had to be ORDERED to send helicopters. Gen Mattis refused to send Marine helos to MEDEVAC an SF ODA decimated by an errant bomb early in Afghanistan.
This behavior can be seen again when it comes to crediting troops. Army Generals go out of their way to recognize Marine contributions (this thread is full of quotes). Where are Marine acknowledgments of respect? The Tiger BDE provided most of the armor for the Marine thrust into Kuwait in Desert Storm, hardly any mention. The Army led into Falujah and one BN went from a supporting effort to the main effort, hardly any mention. I’m a fair guy, I give Gen Oliver Smith the benefit of the doubt in not helping the 31st RCT when it was destroyed in detail holding the east side of Chosin allowing the Marines to secure the route of withdrawl but he did NOTHING to stop the rumors of cowardice that Marines have heaped upon the 31st RCT which subsequently received a PUC and whose 2nd commander (the first was killed) received the MOH. The same unit whose utter and tragic destruction provided his unit the critical time it needed to fight its way out of Chosin and become a legend. (READ East of Chosin and you’ll understand how dishonorable Gen Smith’s lack of recognition is.)
As an aside, Pershing had his flaws. Not wanting Marines in WWI is understandable considering the time and place. Where’s the beach at Belleau Wood? Why dedicate resources to bring Marines over when one is challenged to get the Army into the fight in a MAJOR land war? Based on the self serving release of Marine exploits after the fight in direct contravention of orders and its impact on the larger force was he so wrong? The Marine total disregard to the news blackout is also understandable when viewed in the dysfunctional light of “Semper Fi”.
“Semper Fi” is a great motto and very VERY well deserved in many ways but the evidence demonstrates a clear negative aspect of the “Semper Fi” culture. By all means it’s not all bad but when it’s darker aspects become dominant in how Marines treat other services it’s a matter of concern especially if you’re a soldier.
Black Beret – One general making a very shortsighted decision. Shinseki was a tanker. Since WWII tankers have been trying to get the Black Beret which the Germans established as their traditional tanker wear. Shinseki was at a Ranger demo, saw the beret and figured he could make everyone feel special, get the tankers their beret and make his impact on the Army in one swoop. Dumb. If you look back to the 1890’s you’ll see for a short time the Army actually had a spiked helmet like the Germans. Dumb.
BTW, morale was low in the Rangers the rest of the Army just drove on and dealt with it like many dumb decisions before and more to come.
America is fickle when it comes to its Army. There was a time when towns outside bases refused to serve soldiers and it was looked downupon to be dating a soldier even an officer. Lived it in the 80’s at Ft. Benning. Right now there’s a threat and we’re popular. It won’t always be that way. Americas treatment of the Army was shameful during the revolution and several times thereafter. Like a good dog we remain loyal even if we are made to sleep on the porch in the rain and our master ALWAYS comes first.
I’d like to see the Army do some focusing and internal soul searching. We don’t have a consistent message to the nation we serve exclusively and often to our own detriment. There are risks to promoting ourselves.
First of all, ” first to fight” was a recruiting slogan used by the marines. An as we all know recruiters don’t always tell the complete truth. Not saying the slogan was a complete lie, it just wasn’t the complete truth. You can’t include SF units in the topic first to fight. We have SF units in countries that we don’t have any conflict with yet they are doing missions.
Secondly you can’t be mad that the general population thinks what they think. Most civilian can’t tell the difference between a soldier, marine, sailor, or airmen or be able to identify the uniforms. I know there were more soldiers in the pacific than marines but most people know about the battle of Iwo Jima and the famous flag raising on Mt Suribachi.
I agree with your point that most civilians don’t know squat and we can’t hold Marines responsible for everything said by them. The problem is when Marines say it and believe it to the exclusion of anything else. Then we have a problem.
BTW, I listed conventional Army units that were “first to fight” in several recent conflicts.
Stupid phone. The fact of the matter is, most civilians are ignorant when it comes to military affairs. They will believe anything Hollywood puts out there or any other crap the media puts out. It’s not like the army ever disputed the marines claim of “first to fight” n
Stupid phone. The fact of the matter is, most civilians are ignorant when it comes to military affairs. They will believe anything Hollywood puts out there or any other crap the media puts out. It’s not like the army ever disputed the marines claim of “first to fight” nor did they ever dispute any other claim at the time.
The Army is definitely taken for granted. i have relatives and friends that tell me that it doesn’t seem that the Army is doing any fighting, that the Marine is doing all the fighting (current war). i ask them what make you say that? their respond is we only hear about the Marine (recently SEAL also) on the news and nothing about the Army. i’m not blaming the Marine but image of Army in civilian eye fall way short as compared to the Marine.
The Army at time seem confuse as far as their identity, Be all you be, Army of one , Army strong, black Barret, blue Barret, wonder what next? IMO they should have stay with be all you can be or maybe U.S Army guardian of the nation.
Feel your pain. I’m well prepared to respond to folks that only let the media educate them. This thread helps a bit unfortunately there have been some really hateful comments made by both sides.
I also agree the Army needs to quit letting civilian advertising firms generate our message.
Don’t get wrapped around berets. Personally I can’t stand any of them besides the green beret. Our forefathers in WWII wore service caps with a paraglider patch. That should be good enough for us now. The same for the Rangers. By God we have a tab, we have to have special European style headgear? If so we should be wearing the style worn by Roger’s Rangers and nopt copying European style.
I believe that all of this banter is of complete ignorance. I have worked with some outstanding Soldiers and some crappy ones. I can say the same about Marines, there have been Marines that I believed they should be shoveling manure and now where near a weapon. The last decade of fighting in Afghan, Iraq, and the Horn of Africa has shown that even though we are separate branches of service, we reliant on the support of each other’s iron sights, wings, and ships.
The fact is, as we start to see our defense budget decreased, Joint Operations, will be the way ahead. All services will have to get use to the idea that we are going to be completely reliant on each service and other Allied Nations. Each service is cutting number. The Marine Corps is aiming at just over 180,000, that is smaller than the Army Reserve Forces. This means that if another conflict begins, the MAGTF (Marine Air Ground Task Force) will have to rely on other services for support and vice versa. No one service can win a war alone, no one service has ever won a war without the interaction or support from another service.
As a Marine, I fully embellish in our Esprit de Corps, because it is what my life and career has been dedicated to. I will support and defend my Marines with my life, and I can assume a Soldier will say the same and I pray they will. I honestly believe that if all of the energy exerted into the banter above was redirected into letters to congress or fundraisers to support our troops and to educating our government, then are service members would have a higher quality of life.
Think about it, you have accomplished absolutely nothing or meaningful from these rants.
V/R
Stephen W. littlewood
Warrant Officer
US Marine Corps
Okinawa, Japan
Gunner – I disagree. There has been some real hateful stuff said by both sides and it would be good if this format had an editing option. The more mature of us should see that and correct our own (and the other side if the old hands won’t).
Back and forth embellishment and banter between services is as old as when the first legionaire talked smack to the first Marine. Wait! There weren’t any back then! (See, I’m chiding) Then again Hollywood is making a fictional movie about modern Marines going back and taking names so we’ll see. FTR, Legionaires served as the Army and the Marines in the Roman Empire.
As an aside I think much of the anger and viciousness demonstrated by Marines in this thread is because they’ve never been corrected about some of their history. Some of that blame might even be the Army’s fault because it does not do as good a job of teaching its history I’ve learned quite a bit in this thread. Specifically what really happened at Trenton, Chapultapec, Derna, Saipan, Chosin, Mazzaar e Sharif, the 507th Maint Co ambush, COL Dowdy’s relief and Falujah.
In all seriousness, there are things that we as warriors shouldn’t be saying to each other if we respect each other. Taking credit for another services accomplishments is one of them and something we punish severely if those that we served with wore awards they hadn’t been awarded.
Secondly there are positives to debating the dumb idea of rolling the Corps into the Army (and vice versa). Too many on both sides fail to realize how dumb that actually is.
REALLY appreciate your thoughtful and respectful input.
Much respect and regards,
MAJ (Ret) W, Rodriguez
Infantry, USA
Sir,
I was not saying either side is correct. I was stating that both sides are completely out of line with disrespectful banter toward each service. If there is one person here that can back their statements with sources, which no one has done, then they should publish these pieces in journals like the Marine Corps Gazette. If someone wants to set the history books straight, then a well positioned, non bias, research paper should be developed and published. All these rants just make both services look like complete Jack Asses. Both the Army and Marine Corps have high standards and codes of conduct. Both have thrown them out the window in this essay.
If either side wants to prove themselves then publish your work! Make me a believer with sources I can validate for myself as well as the rest of the community. As an Intelligence Officer I love facts and military history from all around the world. I can say that there are many “facts” stated by both sides that are completely false.
Marines and Soldiers are proffesional warfighters, all I am asking is for both to act like it. Brute force equals empty threats in cyberspace. So all of the name calling and harsh language posted so the whole world can see is unbecoming of both services.
V/R
Stephen Littlewood
Warrant Officer
US Marine Corps
Stephen (if you don’t mind the familiar), jerks are everywhere and yep there have been PLENTY here. None the less I learned a lot and I’ve gone back and double checked some the citations I wasn’t sure of (e.g. Trenton, Derna, Chapultapec, etc.). It’s not very hard. I encourage you to try. I’ll do one for you… http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/american-marines-battles-trenton-and-princeton Go to the bottom and read the comments and citations. The sources are readily available.
Just because some are jerks doesn’t mean to stop trying to find the truth or throw the baby out with the bath water. It’s been my experience that troops & leaders can bitch in pretty unprofessional ways. AFTER correcting one’s subordinates the responsibility to get to the bottom of things has not been relieved of the leader if he cares about his troops and his unit. Leaders don’t get to quit because something is hard or distasteful. That’s especially so for officers.
It’s because the author and many of the facts presented here ARE accurate that no one has gone back and refuted the author’s facts. (Though his conclusion about the future of the Corps is a huge leap and unsupported and I’ve said so repeatedly, for what that’s worth).
I’m considering getting into the professional writing side. Who know what the future may hold but the venom has been extreme on this thread and the overwhelming number of personal attacks have been by Marines though there have been several scuzzy soldiers rolling in the mud also. Maybe if the more level headed among us tried to restrain the more exuberant or immature?
Good luck to you. Keep the faith and I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.
Major Rod,
You raise the first issue that the interservice rivalry has passed the point of good natured ribbing (I paraphrase so correct me if I don’t capture your point.) In my years of service and interaction with my network of fellow veterans and current active duty members across all branches I don’t see this. The postings on this blog are more a phenomenon of trolls versus reality. My personal experience, which I assume you are using as a basis for your position (I have served with all branches over a 14 year period in all manner of environments.) I don’t think we’re on the brink of organizational break down nor did I see or do I hear now that there is a built in organizational bias that encourages the individual Marine to disregard the other branches. There is the post-bootcamp mentality of invincibility that wears off after a certain point and this attitude isn’t tolerated by veteran, long-service Marines. As with all situations there are exceptions to the rule. One train wreck does not make all trains bad. The examples you cite, I think have nothing to do with the sinister motives you infer on Marine officers, for if their motives were to be true as you infer, you would have to infer the same sinister motives of other senior leaders in the other branches and specifically and most certainly the Army as being just as guilty (and by extention being the larger, senior service more guilty). To cite intent based only on observable action out of context doesn’t allow for good analysis nor does it lead you to solid conclusions.
World War I
As this is the author’s starting point for the genesis of interservice issues between the Army and the Marine Corps, I’ll start here. (There are plenty of excellent histories that address these events in great detail that I found illuminating and reinforced my pride in the true legacy of the both the Army and the Marine Corps – way beyond the “Devil Dog” and “First to Fight” legends.)
Your argument that the Marine Corps had no right to be included because the conflict wasn’t amphibious misses several points:
– The Marine Corps that evolved over the 20th century was primarily as an expeditionary ground combat force that specialized in forced entry landings (WWII being the exceptional time where that was the key quality needed in the Pacific theater.)
That it had the capability to conduct forced entry landings (not a fully developed capability until after WWI), and seize advance naval bases is only one aspect and not relevant to the circumstances of fighting in France as a part of the Amercian Expeditionary Force.
You ascribe evil intent for the Marines always looking for some way to stay a relevant participant just for the sole purpose of their existence and I assert that the Marine Corps like any great innovative organization is always working and striving to remain relevant in order to participate and serve our country, our constituion, and its citizens. (Incidentally, you could infer either side of the argument for each branch – I prefer to assume positive intent and the latter argument for all the branches of the armed forces.)
When Pershing said he didn’t have shipping to get the Marines to France, the Marines provided there own. AT each turn the Marines overcame the objections to get to the goal of being in the fight.
When Pershing relieved the Marine commander of the 4th Marine Brigade, he placed a less senior Army officer in command over a more senior Marine officer on site. (You didn’t see us getting whipped up over that and that happened before Belleau Wood). In fact the Marines created a special bond between themselves and their Army general. General Harbord was treated with less courtesy from his own service after he spoke very favorably of the performance of the Marine Brigade. Later General Lejuene commanded the 2nd Division and there were many instances of both Marine and Army officers successfully commanding formations from the other services. These two stories (Harbord and Lejuene are overlooked and overshadowed by the petty press release.) are the more important one. I encourage you to look closer at these two professionals especially Harbord who was treated with great respect by the Marines.
The big issue of the publicity was a press release that was in no way shape or form pushed out by the Marines. This was done by an independent journalist and the journalist’s friend who sat on the censorship board in Paris and thought his friend’s dispatch would be his last due to mortal wounds suffered at the front. Pershing’s misguided policy of press censorship only hurt the Soldiers of the other units by not informing the American people of how well THEIR Army was doing. Pershing could have easily solved his own problem by releasing information on the progress and successes of the other units – HE was the AEF Commander – where is his responsibility in this?
These are great examples you provide and I will comment on them as well.
Just read Frank Church’s history of Guadalcanal – I highly recommend it – great scholarship, analysis and commentary.
Major Rod – to re-emphasize – I enjoy the discussion of the history and legacy of both the Army and the Marine Corps – it is the richest military history around. I hope through our discussions here that we can get beyond hyperbole and hubris and bring that history to light. I will work to tell both sides of the story.
More to follow.
Simple Marine – Woah Woah Woah!!!! Reread my post!
NEVER ascribed any dysfunctionality to ALL or even MOST Marines. No we are not at the precipice of collapse based on interservice rivalry. I NEVER inferred sinister motives on Marine officers (as a group). I wholeheartedly agree with your “one train” metaphor. That said, my comments are based on 20+ years of joint service and the incidents I discussed were not painting the whole organization. They were illustrating a phenomenon that crops up on occasion. Discussion of organizational groupthink displayed at The Cuban Missile Crisis or The Challenger Disaster doesn’t mean the Oval Office and NASA are groupthink type organizations but it sure as hell says they need to be wary of it.
As for WWI, just becaue the Marines “could” get to the fight doesn’t mean they should. Don’t think launching the 82nd or 101st into a mission because “it can” validates doing it. Large picture here? Every warrior wants into the fight. You have to look at the whole situation. On the other hand it just made sense to get the Marines into Afghanistan in Nov ’01.
What I am saying are the few cases that do occur have impacts on the force that are far beyond those involved realize and eventually have impact on the mission. I sense your strong reaction is somewhat of a kneejerk reaction. No vet likes to hear something negative about their branch.
No doubt there ARE organizational culture dysfunctionalities in the Army caused by it having to be the largest organization. I detest the way the warrior ethos is watered down in support units. The Army made a very haphazard effort to fix the problem after the 507th debacle (e.g. increased combat training in basic which has over time been watered down). The Black Beret fiasco was RIDICULOUS! A symbol of “specialness” doesn’t mean much unless you had to do something special to earn it. Finally, the Army’s size infects it with a corporate mentality at times that just makes for a climate that doesn’t value pride, appreciation of history etc. (as an aside we see those things reinforced at the division and branch level vs. Army wide).
Maybe my approach rubbed you wrong. “Semper Fi” has been the rallying cry for so many Marine achievements that you may have taken my point as sacriligious that it could be dysfunctional. No offense was intended. “This We’ll Defend” can be dysfunctional if we apply it as a shield to avoid change and we allknow from history that evenpeace loving religions can sow harm when taken to an excess.
I read the article from the gazette. It doesn’t say anything about the marines taking credit from the army’s accomplishments from the revolutionary war. It simply states there were continental marines at the battle of trenton. Not that they played a pivotal role in the battle. So I still don’t see anything that shows the marine corps taking credit for army accomplishments. I don’t see what all this bitching is about.
Problem is there were no Marines at Trenton. Read the comments at the bottom and you’ll see where the Gazette staff confirm there were no Marines at Trenton and the original story’s scholrship was faulty.
Don’t think the Marines are claiming an Army accomplishment? Bet you wouldn’t feel that way if some official Army publication stated there were soldiers present at the flag raising at Suribachi. Nah, the Army wouldn’t be taking from a Marine accomplishment. SHHHUUUUURRRREE…
I’m now not positive where you’re getting your information, but great topic. I needs to spend a while finding out more or working out more. Thank you for great info I was in search of this information for my mission.
I Love this essay. However, I would like to see a list of sources. I am a former U.S. Army Soldier and sick of hearing all the bullshit Marines put out there about the Army. I have always supported all out armed forces but feel the Marine Corps has a bloated sense of their own accomplishments. Many of the Instances can be looked up but I would like to research this topic on my own. Most Marine History books are the same as elementary school books and tell people the same crap that Marine D.I.’s do. It’s about time that someone told a different side of the USMC’s story.
As a High School essay I would give you a C. In research, foot noting and supporting your points a solid D. Your selective “Cherry Picking” of unsupported facts to support your viewpoint lessens the impact of your writings You truly need to find your “neutral voice” and properly support your positions. The writings here are less than studious. .
I’m sure you were.
This entire line of comments is totally unsat. Fellas, and gals, we all fight for the same country. Let’s be proud of what all our fighting forces do and quit bickering. You all sound like some third world military officers arguing over nothing. ONE TEAM- ONE FIGHT!!!!
Where did you come up with all this crap?
For one thing the famous picture taken by Joe Rosenthal of the second raising of the flag on Iwo was not staged.
The picture of the first flag raising taken after the fact, was staged, but the picture of the second flag raising was pure happenstance.
Joe Rosenthal tells the story in a documentary and the film of the second raising prove that the picture was not staged.
I hate liars.
the author of this “piece” clearly has a beef with the Marines. Smallest branch, smallest budget but outshines the Army at every turn…without TRYING. Dont worry dude, maybe your son will join the Marines and bring some pride to your family.
If we only had a nickel for every bragging remark about “outshining” (not fact I remind you, which are very few and far apart), we’d be able to pay off the national debt.
to author, you lost me after the first scanning of your epiphany, have you served in any manner? if so, good on you. second, have you served as a Marine? dumb question but don’t want to be judgemental, if the answer to the above is no, and especially to question 2, then you explained it already and i am wasting my time further, i have served alongside all branches and for most part they are all good at what they do in their own way, both older brothers served during Viet Nam in USA and USN, i have served afloat as member of 24 MEU (SOC) and had shots fired at me in anger, having been afloat in gator navy, i now understand better how hard it is to be a sailor, and it ain’t no fun for sure, my father was in Big Red One in Europe, watchstander at Nuremberg, and later hit and medevaced in early hrs of New Years Day 1951 as Sgt and acting 1st Sgt in 19th of 24th ID, this was an engagement in which 500,000 Chinese launched an assault on 8th Army’s lines, he did not like to talk about it much except that it was very very cold, that in their sector the fighting was in close, and the preferred weapon was 12 ga. with 00 buck, can only imagine the hell on earth experienced by Frozen Chosin of 1st MarDiv as they evac’ed all of their and USA dead and wounded to sea, so having said that, unless you have been a Marine then you will never understand what makes a Marine, but this is not the place to try and make you understand, you have your opinions and i have my facts based on a career, you may be believe we are not needed and that we believe ourselves superior, on the contrary Marines learn early that actions speak louder than words, its not egocentrism but rather the pride of HAVING EARNED the privilege to be a part of the stuff “such as regiments hand down forever” we have had an uphill batlle since our formation on 10 nov, 1775, have been challenged and fought off political battles for our existence, despite all that, when the nation calls, they call on the Marines, simply because we get the job done, i got a letter from a fellow Officer from 24 MEU after i retired, i had been enlisted and made SSgt before “deserting SNCO ranks” – in words of my Sgt Major – to become a Warrant officer, and retired as CWO3, this former Captain had gotten out also and was pursuing Masters Degree and serving internship with Intel in CA, a US Army friend of his wrote him from AO during second Gulf War, to paraphrase (and he was referring to the march of TF Tarawa, under a former Bn Cmdr of 1/2 while with 24 MEU, then BGen and retired as LtGen, to paraphrase “we just passed through ****, and I’ve never seen anything like it in my life, those GodDamnn Marines killed everything in sight” That’s why, my friend (until you prove otherwise), they call on us, USMC. Would you rather take a poodle or a pit bull to a dogfight?
Marines like to claim that the Marine Corps single handedly saved Korea.
The fact is, in 1951, the Marine Corps had been gutted by the Post World War II draw down and was not capable of putting significant numbers of troops on the ground.
The people who were called upon to fight the North Korean troops were Soldiers, not Marines. As ill trained and ill equipped as they were, those Soldiers, without any assistance from the Marine Corps, did fight well enough to establish the Pusan Perimeter. The Marine Corps did not put any boots on the ground until after the Pusan Perimeter was established, and it was one regimental combat team, the 5th Marines. Had the Soldiers not gone in first, the war would have ended before the 5th Marines were ready to fight. Had there been no Soldiers in Korea, even if the 5th Marines were deployable in June of 1951, it would not have been enough to maintain a UN military presence in Korea.
Uh. The Marines landed in August of 1950 at the Pusan Perimeter, the Korean War started in June of 1950.. They couldn’t get there any quicker because the Army were the only units in theater, they had to be brought by ship from California. As it was, the situation on the ground in South Korea was so dire the convoy bypassed their original port of call in Japan to go directly to Pusan, arriving their on August 3rd.
The Army’s forces in the area were understrength also due to the post WWII draw down. The only forces available was the severely under-equipped and under strength 24th Inf Div based in Japan. They were thrown against the NK forces in hopes of delaying them until more forces could be brought into Korea. They did what they could, but were woefully unprepared for combat – though they were better off than most of their ROK allies. They did manage to buy time for better trained troops to be brought in though. The 1st Provisional Marine Brigade was held as a reserve unit and thrown into the line where the NK’s appeared to be breaking through, thus leading to their nickname of being a ‘fire brigade’.
I know more than a few Marines who fought in Korea, my father among them. I’ve yet to hear one of them claim that the Marine Corps saved Korea, single-handled or otherwise.
not a historian but what i have read supports what you say, task force smith around pusan was the david against the goliath….USMC had been cut to the bone after WWII and most if not all troops that were initially sent were reserves….don’t quote or debate because thats not my purpose, just to say again that all services carry their weight and have historically…my Dad was with 19th of 24 ID and hit on first night of new years assault…approx half a million chinese massively assaulted 8th army lines….inchon was mcarthurs idea and usmc got a role in it…best to all that have served, regardless of uniform, and those in the rear with the gear supporting all abroad
i do think your piece was a bit tilted and don’t support disbanding USMC, but i enjoy the facts posted here, very educational and well thought out, i discount all the unsubstantiated bickering, it was cute as a Private but does not fit in anymore, especially in the Joint Ops arena, face it, all services have their strengths and weaknesses, for every Iwo Jima there’s a Wake Island, facts are what counts and not opinions without facts, thats the difference btwn a debate and a pissing contest
RAT, EOM
You are full of shit. Really 2 man rooms in basic. Try a squadbay full of 70 to 90 recruits ass. Obviously you were never a marine, yet alone have the balls to be one. Unlike you I’ve been to army basic, not as a soldier but ad a marine. I’ve seen the training and it sucks. But if course soldiers excuses are ” that is ft. Knox or ft. Sill. If you go to so and so it’s tougher there.” you probably got your ass kicked by a marine or one fucked your girlfriend and left you. Grow up and quit being a little bitch
I retract my last statement to you. Maybe I should have read your entire comment before reposting. I didn’t realize you were mocking it.
Wow, quite a bit of misinformation there in regards to the Chosin Reservoir. My father fought there with the Marines and I’ve been to reunions of survivors that includes Army survivors of the 31st (Task Force MacLean/Faith). They did collapse and pretty much retreat pell-mell after their leaders were killed or incapacitated, and from the sounds of it they didn’t get much leadership at the top to begin with (note: this is from comments made to me by Army survivors btw). Sure, they fought as well as could be expected being a mish-mash unit of artillery troops converted to riflemen and a rather large contingent of South Korean troops. Colonel MacLean ignored the warnings of the 5th Marine unit they replaced in the area about patrols finding chinese and that there was extensive enemy activity in the area. Rather than setting up anyting more than token defensive positions (unlike the Marines), the 31st RCT camped preparing to attack in the morning as their orders from Major General Almond stated they would be advancing north along the Marine’s flank. After losing their recon platoon on a scouting mission into the area they would attack the next day, Col. MacLean apparently did nothing to try to find out why or to change his plans to advance in the morning. Communications were not established between the positions, no lines were run and due to the mountainous terrain, their field radios could not contact the Marines at Hagaru-ri – or at times the rest of the 31st nearby. Their one consistent radio link to the outside was the Marine Forward Observer’s, which ended up being a lifeline for getting resupplied – though like the Marines they did not get much of the heavier ammo they requested for some reason.
Simply put, they weren’t prepared for the assault by the Chinese when it happened, mostly due to HQ saying there was only a light concentration of troops in the area. The Marines in their three main areas of Yudam-ni, Hagaru-ri and Koto-ri had at least established some defensible positions, ran lines of communication and worked to protect their supply line which helped them withstand the attacks better than the 31st RCT ultimately did. MacLean kept saying reinforcements were coming (the 31st’s infantry battalion and tank company did not advance with the main body for some reason and ended up having to turn back due to Chinese resistance and the weather), by all accounts MacLean never radioed for help or to report on the desperateness of his situation – even though the Marine Forward Observer was in constant contact with the Navy and Marine air wings providing near constant air support to the 31st during daylight hours. The air support helped to blunt the Chinese attack during the day, and between their rockets and the infantry anti-tank units on the ground they were able to destroy or incapacitate most of the Chinese tanks.
After Colonel MacLean was shot and captured (he mistook advancing Chinese troops as his reinforcements and by most accounts ordered his troops to stop firing at them while he dashed off to meet them), most of the rest of the 31st’s officer corps (the Marine F.O. had taken over command of one of the companies in addition to calling in air strikes) was killed or incapacitated and running low on ammo, Lt. Colonel Faith made the decision to pull back to the established Marine lines at Hagaru-ri (lines that were held mostly by Marine support troops such as motor pool, artillery and cooks at that point). In order to have as many riflemen as possible guarding the convoy of vehicles and wounded, they abandoned much of their materiel such as their howitzers and heavy weaponry after firing the last of the ammo and then destroying the equipment.
Air support was requested, and unfortunately the lead elements of the convoy were mistakenly hit by napalm and machine gun fire from the Corsairs. Already shaky morale was shaken further and then more or less broken when the Chinese attacked the convoy. Riflemen (and mind you, these were mostly artillery-trained units pressed into service as riflemen) who were supposed to guard the trucks took cover in ditches or under the trucks instead of firing back (some only had a few rounds of ammo so it’s likely they could not do anything to defend the trucks). Eventually the column ground to a halt after sundown when their air cover was forced to leave and they had run into a Chinese roadblock and defensive position in the hills.
Several attacks to clear the hill were unsuccessful, often because after clearing the Chinese from their positions the troops would continue forward over the ice of the reservoir rather than holding it to help break the Chinese roadblock. Eventually after Lt. Colonel Faith and Major Storms were killed, the convoy melted into confusion and the retreat became a rout. Chinese were moving up and down the stalled column at will throwing WP grenades into the trucks of the wounded and the soldiers just tried to get away. Curiously, the Chinese tended to let them go rather than keep them as prisoners after the Soldiers tried to surrender and threw down their weapons.
The Marines at Hagaru-ri lead by Col. Olin Beall made several sorties onto the ice of the reservoir to bring the surviving Soldiers into their lines and sent out roving patrols to bring in more. Your number of the survivors is a bit off btw, ultimately approximately 1000 -1500 Soldiers made it to Marine lines and to safety (1000ish or so from the trapped elements of the 31st, remainder from the infantry/tank column that could not link up with the main body). I believe your figure is the able-bodied Soldiers that were formed into a provisional battalion to help with the breakout to Koto-ri and then on to Hungnam or the numbers Marine Colonel Beall and his Marines helped pull off the ice.
One of the reasons the Marines suffered less KIAs is because of the air field General O.P. Smith stubbornly insisted be built. They were able to evacuate seriously wounded troops to where they could get better care. Marine helicopters did evacuate some of the worst wounded the 31st had during the battle, but the 31st’s scattered positions and poor communication hampered the ability to chopper out more wounded. Many of the survivors of 31st RCT were flown out of Hagaru-ri after their arrival. Also, the severe cold weather helped as well. I’ve heard numerous stories of guys coming off the line into a warming tent who were fine until their body warmed up and the frozen wounds they had started to bleed. The bitter cold had literally saved them from bleeding out while in combat.
Also, for the guy making the comment about the bridge that was dropped.. it was put in place by Marine and Army engineers. The Air Force originally wanted to drop three sections, all that was needed to bridge the blown gap. The Marines insisted on at least one spare treadway span, which was a good thing since the first one was basically rendered unusable in the drop.
It took the resources of every branch of service to get the surviving elements of X Corps out of the encirclement, but anyone who spends any amount of time talking with the survivors or seeing the records of the day can see that while they put up a valiant effort, 31st RCT’s demise was almost predictable due to some of their leadership (one Army survivor spoke to me of his lieutenant telling everyone to run for the hills when the Chinese attacked the convoy – once reaching the safety of the Marine lines he found that lieutenant sitting in a foxhole guarding Col. Beall’s command tent along with a ROK lieutenant that had also abandoned his men in the fight. There are examples of astounding courage and outright panic everywhere you look in the battle of the Chosin among the US forces, the Chinese, the British and the Koreans.
In the end, from what I have read and heard from those that were there, 31st RCT’s biggest liabilities at the start were MacLean and Almond. MacLean did nothing to consolidate his positions or ensure lines of communication between his units – some had no contact with any other other than runners. Major General Almond after taking a helicopter ride on the day after the initial attacks told 31st RCT that they should be attacking, that they were held back by nothing but laundry men. Even after MacLean was shot and captured on Nov 29th, Lt. Col Faith still had orders to attack and no authority to order a withdraw. 31st RCT definitely doesn’t deserve some of the reputation it has, the soldiers fought against incredible odds and held on as long as they were able to remain an effective force. With some better leadership in the top position at the beginning, who knows how things might be different. The trouble is, the few good officers the 31st had died fighting. Once the majority of them were killed or otherwise incapacitated, the few remaining could not hold the unit together.
Finally, I will say this: The Marines I know of who were at the Chosin Reservoir generally have nothing derogatory to say about the soldiers of 31st RCT, to them they are simply brothers in arms who went through a frozen hell together and lived to tell the tale. The same goes for the Soldiers when speaking about the Marines. Almost all of them agree that the 31st RCT’s junior officer corps was not up to the task after the few effective leaders were killed or incapacitated. And the less said about Col. MacLean and MajGen Almond the better.
Mike, you’re passing on misinformation though I believe your heart is in the right place. Many mistakes were made at Chosin and they all weren’t the Army’s. Let me correct some of your errors and doctrinal misperceptions.
No Marine units passed on info to COL MacLean. In fact one of the last Marines told CPT McClymont that he had sent patrols out 10 miles in every direction with no enemy contact(p.37 East of Chosin) There was extremely poor coordination between the 31st RCT and the Marine Div. This started with the relief when Marine units did not stay in place which is doctrinal for a relief in place. They never passed on sector sketches, fire plans or any of the customary planning done when units relieve each other.
As for communications, it’s doctrinal for the higher command to establish contact with the subordinate command. The Marines did not do this at Chosin. Not even after they were given operational control of the 31st RCTthe morning of 29 Nov did they attempt to establish communications. Communication with the air assets does not equate to communication between ground units.
The Recon PLT was dispatched the afternoon of the 27th. The Chinese attacked less than 12 hours later. Conflicting reports stated the Recon Plt had returned when it hadn’t.
ONE of the three battalions of the 31st RCT was an artillery BN. They became Infantry once they ran out of ammunition and lost the ability to move their guns because the trucks were filled with wounded. The missing infantry BN did not make it up to Chosin because of a lack of transportation. Once transportation was available the Marines and Army had been cut off. The Tank Co. lost
What soldiers did you speak to? Where they part of the 31st RCT which had only one BN commander survive and lost almost all its company commanders and LT’s or were they part of the provisional army unit put together from various Army units that had been cut off and not fought east of Chosin? What were the names of the soldiers and the officers they accused of poor performance? Many of those “junior officers” served in WWII or didn’t come back. Note of the TEN distinguished Service Crosses, second only to the Medal of Honor, six went to officers. BTW, Contrary to their recollections Appleman stated wire was laid and it makes sense because units became instantly aware of attacks as soon as they happened to fellow units.
The Marines on the west side of Chosin fought shoulder to shoulder, were at 100% strength and had warning. They were able to secure their lines of communication because the 31st RCT fought twice the number of Chinese divisions and was destroyed providing the Marines time to secure Hagaru-ri.
Marine air did not destroy any Chinese tanks East of Chosin if at all during the whole battle. A Chinese tank and self propelled gun was destroyed the night of 27 nov by 75mm recoilesss fire (Appleman p73)
The decision to withdraw the 1-31st RCT was made by LTC Faith but approved by COL MacLean before he was shot and killed (Appleman p. 130).
I do not share your poor opinion of COL MacLean who was awarded the DSC for his leadership and valor at Chosin because he constantly led from the front. He had no intel he was going to be attacked. He occupied the Marine positions he was ordered to while being 30% smaller than a comparable Marine unit and additionally missing one of his Infantry BNs.
I have nothing positive to say about Gen Almond. The Marines wrote a heroic page in their history at Chosin. It took the destruction of the 31st RCT for it to be written.
listen guys the marines are better drop it period i think the army should have the training the marineshavbe then china would get fucked so hard in its ass they wont have to squat to crap
sorry i have a crappy cpu it doesnt regester some of the letters and stuff
“Avid historian” you are a foul mouthed moron with no facts as usual. Your screen name is an oxymoron to boot. You posses a “crappy” brain and not a bad CPU.
The common marine tactic on the this site and All parts beyond is to is to repeat the same lies ad nauseum and repeat it forever very loudly. Gee, it sounds like the same false propaganda tactics of Mao and Stalin does it not? Truman was right about the marines false propaganda machine.
The facts remain unchanged by marine lies: A much smaller Army unit saved retreating marines from utter destruction at Chosin. This is not only American historical fact but the view of Chinese army historians as well. Why don’t you look up the record in the Chinese archives and eat humble pie? Marines are not capable of being humble but only false pride, emotional argument and lies.
As a foreigner, I will attest that the United States is the finest country in world history and your Army by-far rhe most elite in world history as well. Your Navy and Air Force are of the best qulaity as shown by their respective performance. Alas, this cannnot be said for the lowly USMC. My son is a US Naval officer supporting SEAL operations and he despises marines. He finds them evil , stupid and liers, in fact. He loves all other American services and and has the most esteem for the United Staes Army.
Please cut the cancer that is the USMC and sav billions of dollars and wasted human lives in the process.
Your comments are as bad as the most rabid Marine supporters. They are not helpful nor do they promote a respectful discussion. You’re just throwing gas on the fire sowing discord between branches.
The Marines have a heck of a history. As individuals I have found them to be honorable. Professionally, they are competent. Their unit cohesion and pride is phenomenal which is a double edged sword as they don’t play well with others and many believe all their press.
There is a definitive need for the Marine Corp in our defense strategy.Maintaining a force a third of the size of the US Army does go beyond an expeditionary force and approaches being a second Army. That’s worth discussing somewhere. Your wholesale character assasination isn’t.
MAJ R.
Infantry USA
Avid historian, you’re a MORON!!! and don’t know crap.The U.S. Army has always been the number one fighting force throughout our Country’s history! The Marines have had its proud moments in history for the Navy! But the Marines will never have the GREAT history or back ground the Army Infantry have created.The long list of well known Army Infantry combat Heroes, and Great combat mined Generals the Army have produced, they’re are no comparison between the two branches. Just look at our Country’s Medal Of Honor list! Facts are Facts. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Marine hater and i will admit they’re the best Navy Soldiers in the world!
Hey moron, they are not navy soldiers, they are marines. There is a difference. Secondly, the army has had more soldiers throughout history then there have been marines. Chances are there will be more medals awarded to the army. You ass clowns get a ribbon for throwing a grenade, congratulations soldier, here is a ribbon for something marines do all the time and get nothing for it.
You must be a foreigner because you dont know shit about the American military. You can bitch and complain about tainted history all you want but just focus on now. Marines have been playing a pivotal role in the military for the past few decades. And we had a seal team with us in Iraq and we got along with them just fine. Maybe cause 4 of them were marines themselves, I don’t know.
Hey DIP SHIT!! I guess you don’t know sarcasm, when you read it huh? I want to tell you, as you already know the Marines are under the Navy Department and throughout history, the Marines have always been part of the Navy in one form or other. Let me tell you asshole in the the early 1900 the Marine brass decided to changed their chicken shit sailor training format to the Army ground combat format! look it up sweetpea.Not only that! Pre WW1, the Marines changed to Army uniforms, and for some damn reason the corps, down the line in their history had the nerve to claim and put cross rifles with their stripes on their uniforms.The cross rifles insignia are a big part of the U.S.Army Infantry’s history and past.The country’s true original Infantry force. To tell you the truth that’s why the Marines will never have their own Department and will be under the Navy as their combat Sea Soldiers forever!!Our country’s doesn’t need to waste money and won’t on a Marine Department,and why? They already have their beloved Army Department running this nation and most of the world.
Army Grunts have done a great job in the two current wars and nobody can’t ever take that away from them and that’s for damn sure! Being an old Army grunt Veteran, I didn’t follow the Marine progress over there much? I figure they’ve held their own over there.But damn it’s good to see the President giving more MOH to those young Army grunts and their families.Plus hearing the media claiming a lot more Army combat victories then anybody else in the Afgan and Iraq wars.I’m real proud of all those young Soldiers and what they have done down range.Oh yeah dip shit, i almost forgot, just because i have a Hispanic surname doesn’t mean i’m a foreigner you dumb ass! I’m a proud Army Vet! One of a long family line of military veterans.
Yeah and the army changed their uniforms to match the digital pattern of the marines (marines cammoflauge looks much better by the way) so what’s your point. I don’t really care what happened 100 years ago. I wasn’t around. I’m more conceded about now, where I know things from personnel experience not from someone who was apparently there or some biased opinion. They don’t waste money on the marines jackass. We have the smallest budget and tend to get leftover army gear. (the hand me downs from the army). I have no beef with any other branch except for when they wanna start talking shit. Whether it’s air force, army, marines, navy, coast guard, we all served our country, which is more than what most civilians can say. My best friend was in the air force and he hates marines. Hates the fact that i am one (was). He was station at kadena air force base in Okinawa, that’s why he hates marines. Then he did a tour with the army in afganistan and was station somewhere in Washington near some army base. He told me that even though he hates the marines more he would prefer to see marines over soldiers when shit hit the fan.
Hand me down gear? BS flag. Another myth to promote oneself. The Marines rarely if ever got “hand me down” Army gear. The times Marines used Army equipment is when THEIR supply system failed them and then THEIR supply system failed them again when it replaced their gear at a much slower pace than the Army. There is no little old lady in tennis shoes relabeling used Army equipment with an EGA.
For well over 60 years the Marines have been using equipment especially bought by them with the EGA or were issued BRAND NEW Army equipment when their supply system proved inadequate. That has morphed into the “hand me down” myth.
An excellent example is the Marines acquisition of the M27 IAR. Malfunctioning SAWs because of age was cited as one of the reasons but left out of the discussion was the MARINE decision not to buy replacements for their SAWs when the Army did. Now the mythology is saying those malfunctioning SAWs were Army “hand me downs” while the truth is the Marines wore them out and refused to but new ones.
Time to putt that myth to bed. The Marines haven’t used Army equipment (except for ammo) in decades.
without getting into the minutia, the Light Armored Vehicle (LAV) was, i believe an Army program that they dropped…not posting in support of us getting leftovers, just wanted to throw it out there…the procurement cycle is a maze and usually one service takes the lead, and once the end item is delivered the bean counters split up the $$ associated, i think it stemmed from USA going in a different direction (Bradley’s maybe ?)….but it was far from a hand me down, but rather a decision made somewhere in the cycle to drop it, the USMC’s picked up the ball and the check and ran with it, we then formed Light Armored Recon Bn’s within each division (LAR) and for the most part the system worked out for us…common practice in procurement for this to happen, i don’t know all the terms etc etc, but it’s been mostly a sea story that we get leftovers…the SAW story is one of problems during the shakeout phase and admittedly was full of problems…..another booboo was going to 9mm…just IMHO the .45 has far more knockdown power..there were nato ammo uniformity issues etc etc, but having fired expert with both i can tell you that the .45s i fired were just worn out…all they needed was some new barrel bushings and they could have saved a ton of $$$….example being that our Force Recon bubbas brought .45’s back…they had armorers at quantico square some away and they became SOC .45’s…SEALs did same with M14 for snipers due to knockdown power of .308….all ancient history now but still food for thought
Oh and I look at it this way. Think about college football. Would you go to a program like notre dame that is a very prestigious program but hasn’t done much lately. Or a school like alabama, LSU, Oklahoma. Maybe not has prestigious history but they are
Kicking ass now. I went to both recruiting offices before I join. I was far more impressed by the marines than the army. I liked the way the looked how professional they were compared to the army. I know now it’s stupid to judge a branch from a few members, put the first impression is the greatest. The army promised me everything. 20 thousand dollars, mos, duty station etc. Almost got me to join. Marines said “you’ll be a marine”
There’s a lot to be said for snazzy uniforms, packaging and a title. I’m impressed just reading about it.
Let me know when you get back to where the rubber meets the road.
i like how you play i loved and respect all the service and then being typical Jarhead you could help yourself so you have to add and remind everyone how much better you are with the my buddy story to make yourself feel better.LOL
Citmstmn,I stand corrected. I thought your foreigner jab was towards me.I now realize it wasn’t. Sorry about the error in my part.
I do respect every service member and branch of the military. The army more than air force or navy. The only difference is, is that I hate the army. Just like my best friend, he hates the marines the most but respects them the most. There is a difference between respect and hate. I did not like my drill instructors for the most part but I sure in the hell respected them. The reason why I hate the army is cause I’ve personally only had soldiers talk shit to me. Never has a sailor or airmen done that. I know what you’ll say ” marines talk shit all the time” yeah they do it to other marines as well. Infantry marines always crack me up because they seem to know what pog means but not what a grunt means. So you’ve probably ran into marines like that.
Reserve your “hate” for the enemy or are you like many Marines that consider the Army the enemy?
You can’t be one team when you “hate” a team mate and don’t be surprised when your team mate isn’t receptive.
And yet again everything in the marine Corps is a myth right? With all due respect major, you weren’t in the marines, how the hell would you know what gear I was issued. I didn’t say everything we have or that every unit had hand me downs. I’m sure there were plenty of marine units that had nice gear. My battalion didn’t. And yes, I had some issued gear that was prior army gear.
Grow up! Never said everything in the Marine Corps is a myth. Where do you get that from the “Marines don’t get Army hand me down equipment”?
What branch we served in is immaterial to this issue. It’s as silly as saying you weren’t in the Army to know USED gear was issued to the Marines. You’re just parroting a myth you were told with ZERO evidence. It’s a matter of record how equipment is acquired and how it enters the supply chain. you’re assuming because something is old and has US Army on it the Marines got it that way. You couldn’t be more wrong.
You’ve NEVER been issued “hand me down” Army equipment unless you’ve drawn equipment from an Army issue facility. Any equipment marked with an EGA is bought BRAND NEW and then marked with the EGA. IF you have any army equipment issued from a Marine supply facilityit was bought BRAND NEW and issued to the Marine. That is NOT “hand me down” equipment.
You just want to blame the Army if your equipment is old instead of holding yourselves responsible. It’s like blaming the Army for not having M1 Garands on Guadalcanal. The Marines didn’t adopt the Garand until four years after the Army did because the springfield was allegedly more accurate and reliable. When it turned out Marine brass was wrong, Marines blamed the Army. Get real…
You’ve been fed a bunch of BS and never questioned it. The facts don’t sit well with the BS.
The whole article is about knocking on the marines and false history. Cause everythin about the marines and their history is mythological. Yep it’s all made up bedtime stories so that little marines can sleep better at night. Apparently you know everything about the military and its history. My bad for debating anything with the all knowing, almighty major rod
Uh, couldn’t prove Marines get “hand me down” gear huh?
I don’t know everything but on this issue I definitively know more than you.
I accept your surrender…
How I’m I supposed to prove it over the Internet. I’m no longer in the military therefore I no longer have the gear. For an officer, you lack common sense.
Even if you had the gear in your hand you couldn’t prove it was used by the Army before the Marines got it. What are you going to d? Dust for Army fingerprints?
Duh, you couldn’t recognize common sense if it looked like a bull dog and bit you on the ass. Now I’m not going to make any relation to you saying you’re a Marine and your lack of a thought process. I’m sure most Marines are smarter than you. Let’s not try to get personal? You’ll lose, again.
You want to prove the Marines use “used Army equipment”? Google it.
im in the army now and i was in the marines for 4 years. seeing both sides i find this site very humorous. marines have outperformed the army at every turn. i have to laugh because i wonder who you think your convincing. the regular army infantry is shit. believe me, i work with them. rangers are pretty good. sf guys are pretty legit. impressive bunch of guys. but whats funny is noone belives you. everyone knows the regular army is a joke compared to the regular marines, thats why i slid right into the army without a hitch while army guys have to go to marine bootcamp and lose all rank. only sorry ass butt hurt little girls. it makes me smile. all these haters show that marines really are a step above the rest if this many army guys are spending this much time crying about all the attention they get. so please. keep our names in your mouth and we’ll keep bangin out your girlfriends. 🙂
I guess you upgraded yourself from the scum sucking worthless usmc into the far superior ranks of the United Stated States Army, you little stupid asshole, did not you? Read the below articles (that is if you can truly read you little idiot) (sic) from real journalists not under falsel usmc control. We all know you are frightened the truth is being revealed.
BTW, we know you are a usmc propaganda machine plant so stop[ pretending.as we know your true identity from this site.
You write like a 10 year old, dantheman. Also, your use of parenthetical marks is a little over the top. You should take a deep breath before you go on a typing rant. It severely diminishes the effect of your message because most will automatically assume you are a buffoon. But onto other things.
I know several former Marines that decided to downgrade to the Army because their MOS promotion opportunities were severely limited. Instead of transitioning to a new MOS, they decided to move over to the Army, who by the way, paid them large signing bonuses and let them retain their current pay grade. The Army was desperate for the talent and badassery that these highly motivated individuals possessed. Every single one of these gentlemen told me personally that the transition was shocking because the soldiers they now depended on and worked with had lackadaisical attitudes, horrible work ethics, lacked discipline, and demonstrated overall ineptitude.
I’ve never had to work or fight with soldiers, so I have no personal real world experience, but all the Marines I’ve known who have transitioned to the Army state flat out that they can’t believe how the Army gets anything done.
CPL D – You might want to be careful with anecdotes. I know of a former Force Recon Marine CPT who left the Corps and his commission to become a SSG on an Army SF ODA. I also have a personal friend who was a Marine Scout Swimmer who left the Marine Corps and a stripe to become a SGT in Corp LRSD at Bragg. Both have plenty of good things to say about the Army while also acknowledging blemishes. That’s the diference.
And those units are going to be full of highly motivated and capable operators because they are SF or more highly trained LRS type occupational specialties. Marines are fundamentally different by design. The gentlemen I am referring to were plain 03 walk alots and turret heads. They train hard and fight hard. And when they are in garrison, they maintain personal and professional standards at extremely high levels.
And to dispel any qualms you have about my ‘anecdotes’, here is my personal experience; I never met one former Army soldier who transitioned into the Corps and said “The Army was a better outfit”. Not one.
And I’ve met former Marines that came to the Army because they felt it was “better”. Not that I agree or disagree. I’ve never made the case that one branch is “better” than another. They are different, They have different missions. Thera are strengths and weaknesses to every branch. I’m frankly not interested in proving the Army is “better” but I won’t just sit and let others say theirs is better either.
I find that many that say their branch is better don’t know about other branches and that goes for both sides BTW, on that note LRSD are primarily 11 series..
Besides the wiki answer and yahoo answer pages where children and young people are asking the question “which is better”, I was hard pressed to find a page or opinion piece written by a Marine or by a Marine Corps supporter that is attacking the Army the way this page does.
Marines are proud of their Corps, and we will defend it, support it, and lobby for it. The Corps will not go away and there is two overwhelming reasons this is true. We get things done. And, we have endeared ourselves to the people. And public image and opinion count. You can’t disregard that aspect.
If the Army wants to change their image, they are free to do so. And the next logical step is to ask, “What is stopping them?”. And my answer is: wasting time complaining about Marines stealing their glory.
Get over it already.
CPL D all you have to do is read the Marine Corps gazette. I just finished reading two articles (women in the Infantry and on marksmanship) that took the obligatory swipe at the Army I also saw that out of hand treatment on military.com and DoDBuzz.
I don’t agree with this article’s premise about shutting down the Marine Corps but the general gist of stolen valor is on target. Many Marines are getting upset because certain things they took as fact simply aren’t.
As for “getting over it” that’s easy to say when the Army hasn’t taken credit for Marine accomplishments.
I wish the Corps well and continued success as they celebrate accomplishments that rightly belong to them.
Hey J, you probably should have taken a little time between the Marines and the Army and finished high school.
And, if you’re in the Army you have never “worked” with Rangers, and certainly have never interacted with SF, unless of course you’re assigned to one or the other, or work at the PX.
But now that you’re in the Army, why don’t you tell us what you really miss most about the Marine Corps. Is it being stationed aboard ship so the Navy could have someone to dance with? Or that pretty blue bellhop outfit with the high collar hiding the hickies from your DI? No wait, I know, it’s got to be the nightly circle-jerks where you all hold each other’s dicks and tell each other how cool and tough Chesty Puller was?
Seriously, anyone that wishes goodnight to a guy every night is suspect of certain tendencies in my book, if you know what i mean…
Doubt it. I did both as well. And as a vet of both sides, though I can share some of your sentiment, no one who has still uses the old E-1 ‘you have to go through our bootcamp’ argument…….
The reality is anyone whos been down range will admit that boot camp arguments are silly. At least when I went through MCRD, until we went north I dont remember doing anything really war related….just PT, D&C, lots of games with the DI’s, and classes on herpes and finance and Corps values.
Ill say this, the Depot is a lot louder than Army Boot. That said, where the Army gets it right is eliminating a lot of the tradition in favor of actually training. When I crossdecked I went to Ft Knox as an insert. I got to skip the basic portion (though the AIT phase is still will DS’, and its still a boot enviornment). At week 9 (when I started), the little privates I was with had already learned to walk their own patrols, how to set ambushes, blown shit up with C4, could call 9 likes etc etc. They couldnt march for shit, and they looked nasty…..but, when me and the other inserts, as well as the Marines there for tank school were getting taxis on the weekends to get laid, these nasty little Army fucks were still in ‘boot camp’, training on saturday and sunday…..even though they were supposedly graduated now.
Im just sayin
I’m not surrendering I just don’t want to deal with this conversation.
If I was in your position I wouldn’t want to talk about it either. 🙂
Questions surround Army captain’s ‘lost’ nomination for Medal of Honor
Yet another case of us marines stealing army valor.
By Jonathan S. Landay
McClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON — Like other U.S. trainers with the Afghan force that day, former Army Capt. William Swenson had expected light resistance. Instead, the contingent walked into a furious six-hour gunfight with Taliban ambushers in which Swenson repeatedly charged through intense fire to retrieve wounded and dead.
The 2009 battle of Ganjgal is perhaps the most remarkable of the Afghan war for its extraordinary heroism and deadly incompetence. It produced dozens of casualties, career-killing reprimands and a slew of commendations for valor. They included two Medal of Honor nominations, one for Swenson.
Yet months after the first living Army officer in some 40 years was put in for the nation’s highest military award for gallantry, his nomination vanished into a bureaucratic black hole. The U.S. military in Afghanistan said an investigation had found that it was “lost” in the approval process, something that several experts dismissed as improbable, saying that hasn’t happened since the awards system was computerized in the mid-1970s.
In fact, the investigation uncovered evidence that suggests a far more troubling explanation. It showed that as former Marine Cpl. Dakota Meyer’s Medal of Honor nomination from the same battle sailed toward approval despite questions about the accuracy of the account of his deeds, there may have been an effort to kill Swenson’s nomination.
Swenson’s original nomination was downgraded to a lesser award, in violation of Army and Defense Department regulations, evidence uncovered by the investigation showed.
Moreover, Swenson’s Medal of Honor nomination “packet,” a digitized file that contains dozens of documents attesting to his “heroism . . . above and beyond the call of duty,” disappeared from the computer system dedicated to processing awards, a circumstance for which the military said it has “no explanation.”
The unpublished findings, which McClatchy has reviewed, threaten to taint a military awards process that’s designed to leave no margin of doubt or possibility of error about the heroism and sacrifices of U.S. service personnel. They also could bolster charges by some officers, lawmakers, veterans’ groups and experts that the process is vulnerable to improper interference and manipulation, embarrassing the military services and the Obama administration.
“The whole awards system is just totally jacked up,” said Doug Sterner, a military historian who’s made a career of verifying the authenticity of commendations.
The Pentagon and the military services deny that the system is flawed, and the U.S. command in Afghanistan denied that there was any attempt to downgrade Swenson’s Medal of Honor nomination.
Yet despite the possibility of malfeasance or worse, no further effort was made to determine what happened. The “discrepancies” posed by the evidence of a downgrade to a Distinguished Service Cross “could not be resolved,” the investigators said.
Swenson’s nomination was resubmitted last year. President Barack Obama must approve it before Sept. 8, the third anniversary of the battle, or it expires and can only be revived by an act of Congress.
It couldn’t be determined whether there was an effort to kill Swenson’s Medal of Honor nomination, but there are several possible motives for doing so.
Interviewed by military investigators five days after the battle, Swenson implicitly criticized top U.S. commanders in Afghanistan by blasting their rules of engagement. Angered that his repeated calls for artillery and air support were denied during the ambush, he charged that in trying to prevent civilian casualties for political reasons, the rules were costing U.S. soldiers’ lives.
“We are not looking at the ground fighter and why he is using these air assets,” Swenson said, according to a transcript obtained by McClatchy. “We just reduced an asset that’s politically unpopular. I’m sure there are a lot of people out there saying, ‘I would really like that asset.’ There are probably a lot of people who got killed as a result of not having that asset.”
“I’m not a politician. I’m just the guy on the ground asking for that ammunition to be dropped because it’s going to save lives,” he continued.
Further, several key parts of the Army’s draft account of Swenson’s deeds – a central pillar of a nomination file – conflict with the Marines’ account of Meyer’s acts.
The Army’s version, a copy of which was obtained by McClatchy, said it was Swenson – not Meyer – who led the recovery of U.S. and Afghan casualties from the Ganjgal Valley.
“The need for a ground recovery of all remaining casualties had now become clear,” the Army’s draft narrative said. “Facing this extreme and dire circumstance, and going above and beyond the call of duty, CPT Swenson gathered available combat power to lead a return up the wash.”
The Army’s draft narrative also corroborated the reporting of a McClatchy correspondent who survived the ambush that the belated arrival of U.S. helicopters had allowed trapped American personnel to escape, and that they weren’t saved by Meyer.
“A team of scout helicopters . . . arrived in the valley. CPT Swenson . . . began to talk the aircrafts’ fires onto the various enemy targets,” the draft narrative said. “The enemy sporadically engaged coalition forces while they were overhead. This provided (Swenson and those with him) the slim opportunity they needed” to pull back.
The problem of conflicting narratives would have been eliminated with the quiet death of Swenson’s nomination, which was put in some two months before Meyer was nominated.
Clearing Meyer’s award would have pacified Marine leaders who blamed Marine casualties on the Army’s failure to provide timely air and ground support. Moreover, they were angered by the first investigation of the battle – conducted solely by the Army – which they considered unbalanced. And then the Army nominated one of its own for the Medal of Honor.
After receiving an official inquiry about its status in July 2011, Marine Gen. John Allen, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, resubmitted Swenson’s nomination when a duplicate packet was found outside the computerized awards system. Allen also ordered the investigation into what happened to the original.
Swenson’s replacement nomination, submitted about the same time that Obama signed off on Meyer’s decoration, is believed to have been approved by the Army’s leadership and is awaiting a review by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta before being passed to Obama for final action. George Little, a spokesman for Panetta, declined to discuss the case.
Swenson, 33, of Seattle, resigned from the Army in February 2011. He declined to be interviewed for this report.
The evidence that his original Medal of Honor nomination was downgraded against regulations comes on top of a McClatchy investigation that found that the Marine Corps inflated its account of Meyer’s deeds, attributing actions to him that were embellished or unsubstantiated or that couldn’t have happened.
Obama’s recitation of Meyer’s acts – delivered at a White House awards ceremony on Sept. 15, 2011 – repeated the exaggerated and erroneous details, said the McClatchy investigation, which was published in December by the journalist who survived the ambush while on assignment with Meyer’s unit.
McClatchy’s investigation also noted that at least seven participants in the battle attested to Meyer’s heroism in retrieving under fire – along with Swenson and other U.S. and Afghan personnel – the bodies of three Marines and a Navy corpsman.
The White House, the Pentagon and the Marine Corps defended the official accounts of Meyer’s actions, saying they were the products of an exhaustive review process and that there was no reason to look into the matter.
Swenson, who served one tour in Iraq and two in Afghanistan, was an adviser to 30 Afghan Border Police officers who joined some 60 Afghan troops and their Marine trainers on Sept. 8, 2009, for what was expected to be a low-risk mission to Ganjgal, a fortresslike village at the end of a U-shaped valley in eastern Kunar province. Word of the operation leaked, however, and the contingent walked into a trap set by an estimated 50 to 60 insurgents.
Swenson was nominated for the Medal of Honor for helping to extricate the force and then repeatedly driving back into the kill zone to retrieve casualties under a hail of insurgent bullets and shells
In addition to the three Marines and the Navy corpsman, the battle claimed the lives of an Army sergeant, nine Afghan troops and an Afghan translator. Two dozen Afghans and four Americans, including Swenson and Meyer, were wounded.
Besides the Medal of Honor nominations, the clash produced two Navy Crosses – the second highest U.S. military decoration for gallantry – eight Bronze Stars and nine Purple Hearts.
In his interview with investigators, Swenson expressed bitterness that his request for air and artillery support had been denied. He charged that the U.S. rules of engagement induced American commanders to be overly cautious and second-guess troops in the field.
“I understand the necessity of saving as many lives as I can,” he said, according to the transcript. “Unfortunately, this is combat. I can’t be perfect, but I can do what I feel what’s right at the time. When I am being second-guessed by higher or somebody that’s sitting in an air-conditioned TOC (tactical operations center), well, hell, why am I even out there? Let’s just . . . sit back and play Nintendo.”
A Medal of Honor “packet” typically comprises dozens of digitized documents entered into the computer system that each service maintains to process awards. They include a draft narrative of the nominee’s deeds and a short draft citation supported by sworn witness statements, maps, diagrams and other materials. A nominating officer also fills out a computerized nomination form and signs and dates it digitally with the swipe of a special card. The nomination then moves up the chain of command through a review process that ends with a final recommendation to the president by the secretary of defense.
Swenson’s draft citation – a copy of which was obtained by McClatchy – praised him for “extraordinary heroism, exceptional leadership amidst chaos and death, and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty.”
Evidence gathered by the investigation into what happened to his original Medal of Honor nomination was detailed in documents appended to an Aug. 11, 2011, letter signed by Army Col. James H. Chevallier III, who served as a senior staff officer with U.S. forces in Afghanistan.
McClatchy was shown the letter and the attachments, and was allowed to take notes. Army Col. Thomas Collins, a Kabul-based spokesman for the International Security Assistance Force, the U.S.-led coalition of foreign troops in Afghanistan, confirmed the documents’ authenticity.Chevallier’s letter said the investigation had determined that Swenson’s nomination wasn’t “staffed to completion” and was “lost” in part because of a high staff turnover rate.
“The investigation didn’t find any evidence of criminal wrongdoing or evidence that anyone downgraded the nomination, but there were failures at multiple levels in tracking and processing the award,” Collins said in an email. “That can’t excuse what happened, and we have made adjustments to prevent it from happening again.”
But Collins’ statement and Chevallier’s conclusions don’t account for the evidence of a downgrade that’s outlined in the documents attached to the letter. The letter characterized the attachments as “a more detailed account of the award submission.”
The attachments describe PowerPoint briefing slides that staff officers routinely maintain to keep their commanders updated on the status of award nominations from their operations areas.
The slides came from the 82nd Airborne Division task force that oversaw U.S. operations in eastern Afghanistan at the time the Ganjgal battle took place and from its replacement unit, CJTF-101, from the 101st Airborne Division, which arrived in June 2010.
The attachments showed that Army Lt. Col. Fredrick O’Donnell filed Swenson’s Medal of Honor nomination electronically on Dec. 18, 2009. A May 20, 2010, slide showed the file reaching U.S. Forces-Afghanistan, the Kabul-based headquarters of the U.S. contingent within the international military coalition, a day earlier. The coalition’s commander also heads USFOR-A.
A footnote on an Aug. 21 slide said that Swenson’s nomination then was “downgraded to DSC (Distinguished Service Cross),” but that the lesser award couldn’t be conferred because “USFOR-A is currently out of certificates, but will process and return to CJ1 (a staff officer) ASAP.” A note written by the investigating officer said that the downgrade “appears to be an error as USFOR-A does not have the authority to downgrade a MoH.”
An Aug. 28 slide showed that the lower award then was sent to U.S. Central Command, in Tampa, Fla., for approval. Swenson’s Medal of Honor nomination, the slide said, was “downgraded to DSC and was forwarded to CENTCOM.”
No traces of Swenson’s Medal of Honor packet “or any other award” were found on any military computers save for an “incomplete” Medal of Honor file recovered from SIPRNET, the classified system from which the so-called WikiLeaks documents were downloaded, the attachments said.
Asked why the original packet had disappeared from the computer system dedicated for awards, Collins replied, “I have no explanation for that.”
The period in which the slides showed the downgrade taking place correspond with the second month of now-retired Army Gen. David Petraeus’s stint as ISAF commander. He is now the CIA director.
However, Petraeus, who by regulation was required to recommend approval or disapproval of the nomination, told McClatchy last week that he “has no recollection of seeing this packet.”
Army and Defense Department regulations limit commanders to three options: recommending approval, disapproval or disapproval with a downgrade to a lower award. Once a recommendation is made, the nomination must be forwarded up the command chain until it reaches the secretary of defense and the president, who has the sole authority to approve or downgrade it.
“Nominations for the Medal of Honor are considered so special and so exceptional that the nominating process is controlled by a Defense Department directive and not the services,” said Fredric Borch, a retired Army colonel and an expert on U.S. military decorations.
Several experts dismissed the notion that a Medal of Honor packet could be lost once filed in the Army’s computerized awards system.
“Assuming the nomination was entered into the system, it seems improbable to me that it disappeared,” Borch said.
The services devote enormous energy and attention to shepherding Medal of Honor nominations to approval, especially given the rarity with which the medals have been awarded in Iraq and Afghanistan, experts said. Ten have been conferred, only three of them to living recipients, prompting congressional hearings on complaints from lawmakers, military commanders and veterans’ groups that the requirements have been quietly tightened, a charge the Pentagon denies.
Moreover, the experts said, unofficial word rapidly travels to the top of the military when a Medal of Honor recommendation is made, and service leaders closely track its progress up the command chain.
Sterner said an improper downgrade could be ordered only at a senior level. “When you are dealing with a packet like this, it’s a high priority, high profile,” he said. “You are not going to have a low-level clerk with either the authority or the temerity” to make that decision.
An 82nd Airborne staff officer contacted by investigators had no recollection of handling Swenson’s nomination or briefing her 101st Airborne successor, the letter attachments said.
The attachments contained no conclusions that the file was lost because of staffing turnovers. Instead, the investigators said that “The discrepancies between the information on the slides and the actual status of the award could not be resolved.”
In resubmitting Swenson’s nomination, Allen may have created new complications.
By approving the nomination, Obama could create conflicting Marine and Army accounts of the battle, fueling questions about what supposedly is a rigorous Medal of Honor approval process.
Moreover, Swenson’s packet must be accompanied by a “timeline detailing specific processing dates for the MoH recommendation,” according to Pentagon rules. That means including the evidence of an improper downgrade.
“Investigation that found that the Marine Corps inflated its account of Meyer’s deeds, attributing actions to him that were embellished or unsubstantiated or that couldn’t have happened.”
I’m shocked … shocked to find that gambling is going on in here. Who was the reporter that wrote that news story, Captain Renault?
The Marine Corps has been systemically lying and embellishing the combat exploits of its members since at least World War II, and probably earlier. It’s Marine Corps tradition to fabricate heroes and shower them with high-level awards, disgracefully, and sadly, including the Congressional Medal of Honor.
Recruitment must have been sagging, so they chose Meyer as their heroe of the week. It’s cheap advertisement and a quick attention getter. That corupt institution has no limits to satisfying its pathological need for self-aggrandizement.
“embellished.” “unsubstantiated.” “couldn’t have happened.” The slightest hint of any one of those three allegations is traditional grounds for denying any recommendation. The Marine Corps ignored all three. Shocking.
Vandergrift, Boyington, Shoup…the Marine Corps has a long, humiliating tradition of bringing disgrace and dishonor upon itself by shamelessly fabricating heroes who aren’t. If that sounds trite to you, or sounds like anything else distasteful, STOP, and think for a moment. The Marine Corps has consistently degraded the esteem and honor of the Congressional Medal of Honor by bestowing it upon people like Vandergrift, Boyington and Shoup, at the expense of that pfc on Pelelui who threw his body on a hand grenade to save his comrades, or the corporal who charged a Japanese pillbox with a satchel charge on Iwo Jima, and was cut to ribbons by enemy machineguns. Recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor should be beyond reproach, but the Marine Corps sadly has no respect for even that hallowed institution if it can be corrupted to their perceived advantage. Nothing is sacred to the Marine Corps except their cult. Shameful.
US Marines need to prove its existence caused disaster in Afghanistan
By Michael M. O’Brien, on July 1st, 2012
Excerpted from “Little America: The War Within the War for Afghanistan,” by Rajiv Chandrasekaran. Chandrasekaran, a Washington Post senior correspondent and associate editor, covered the Afghan war from February 2009 to July 2011.
If you ask a Marine why the Corps still exists you’ll be told it’s always the first in, the country’s only expeditionary force, and the sole force designated to conduct amphibious landings.
But who designated the Marines to be the first in, or the only expeditionary force we have? (By the way, they’re not.) Everything the Army does is “expeditionary.” It’s all semantics.
Biggest of all, however, is the Marines’ claim to be the only force designated to conduct amphibious landings. Really? The U.S. Army conducted more amphibious landings in the Pacific theater during the Second World War than the Marines. Where was the Marine Corp on D-Day, when the U.S. Army landed at Normandy? I don’t recall it being there.
This is all background to the larger question: why does the United States have two land forces? Common sense dictates that we only need one. Does the term “redundant” come to anyone’s mind? The Marine Corps has been around too long to be scrapped. But that doesn’t mean we still need it.
The June 24, 2012, article in The Washington Post by Rajiv Chandrasekaran reveals what really happened when we “surged” in Afghanistan in 2009. Marine General James Conway lobbied for the Marines to get a major role in Afghanistan, most likely to give it something to do. With General Jim Jones as the National Security Advisor, and Admiral Mike “Milktoast” Mullen as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, there was obvious bias in the Marines’ favor.
(You’ll recall General Conway was the guy the Marines put between LTG David McKiernan and MG James Mattis during the initial assault in Iraq in 2003. This was so the Marines wouldn’t have to take orders from an Army general. They don’t like Army generals, so they stuck a 3-star of their own in, which goes against the doctrine of “unity of command.” But what do the Marines care? General Conway is also the guy responsible for the Fallujah Brigade disaster. When it was over, hundreds of his own Marines had been killed by the same guys Conway was holding hands and singing kumbaya with. For doing such a great job he was promoted to full 4-star general. Politics is more important than military success, even in a war zone. Once a person gets to a certain level, it doesn’t matter how bad they do their job.)
Without any due diligence by the White House or the Department of Defense, the Marines were sent to Helmand province, instead of Kandahar. Helmand, it turns out, had nothing going on. As a result, the troop surge was severely depleted because half of the 17,000 troops Barack Hussein Obama sent over were Marines twiddling their thumbs in Helmand, instead of fighting the enemy. Stan McChrystal had to ask for more troops, and a year was wasted because the Marines weren’t where they should have been. The Marine Corps’ ego trumped sound military planning. It wasted time, money, men and effort. Small wonder the Afghanistan conflict is in the tank.
The article speaks for itself. It highlights in stark relief the lack of control over the Marine Corps. When the Marines want something, they lobby until they get it. No one on Capitol Hill or in the White House ever has the fortitude to say no, and the Marines play this to their advantage. It’s not PC to question a request by the Marine Corps, even if it doesn’t make any sense or jeopardizes the entire theater of operations, which this did.
After reading the article, one needs to ask why we still have the Marine Corps when it’s completely redundant with the U.S. Army. There’s no logical answer. The only reason is because it’s been around so long. Unfortunately, that’s not good enough anymore.
Dude get over it. Stop blamming the marines for everything that goes wrong. Let me guess, the marines killed pat Tillman as well. It couldn’t have been your beloved rangers responsible for friendly fire and killing him then covering it up. It must have been the marines right? We have 2 land forces cause the president and the rest of congress knows the united states needs the marine corps. That way everytime the army fucks something up they can blame the marines.
Keep eating crayons jarhead. The great lie is what the jarheads keep propagating with their propaganda. Jarheads fuck up alot, why is this? It’s built into their indoctrination brainwashing they have committed. They have lost countless lives due to their love for the Corps not the country. Jarheads arent really needed. It is redundancy. Jarheads have proven to be deserters, cowards and traitors to other branches if it doesnt fit the jarhead propaganda about their supposed Corps legacy. Jarheads love the Corps more than their country. Soldiers love their country more than the Army. The red crayons supposedly tastes the best from numerous jarhead taste testers.
Q.E.D. Need anyone say more? Sorry, but the truth cuts the guts out of the evil,incompetent, wasteful and utterly redundant usmc. Cut the usmc cancer now!
And what bullshit truth would that be. This whole article is a lie and speculation. The author even states that in a few areas. Nothing back up by facts. It’s he said, she said. None of you were around none of you know the truth. Let me guess everyhin you read on the Internet is true right. Get a life and move on.
Jarhead propaganda. Keep eating crayons. Jarheads will desert other branches to embellish and cause historical distortion whenever they have a chance due to their indoctrination brainwashing for the love of the Corps. Jarheads love their cult more than they love their country.
Amen to that. Maybe if they spent more time training instead of bitching about the marines they would be better soldiers.
we’ll, until the Marine stop claiming things that untrue (exam;first to fight, last to leave and many other claim) ignoring other services contribution, by inflating/exaggerring their complishment and not mentioning other services that took part in the battles/war then this type of article won’t exist. Marine need to ease up a little on their PR machine, is getting too powerful. might want to bring it down a couple notches. Your overall contribution to war that fought by this country is pale in comparsion to other services and that include the Air-force and Navy also.
believe it or not other branch are proud of their services too but the Marine by far got the biggest mouth, constantly remind everyone how awewome they are. You ‘re proud, good for you but don’t shit on other reputation to built your egos.
“no Marine or Marine supporter would ever write or attack the army”
there no need to, your PR Machine, and average Jarhead already make it their mission to slanter the Army every chance they get, it part of your boot/Marine culture indoc. Your PR machine have created some fanatic fan-base, congrat you run the best PR. remember where the nickname devil dog come from?( civilian author). the Marine fanclub is far worst then the Marine itself if you ask me. By claiming first to fight last to leave it imply that everyone else just clean up after you.
this is the only article that i found whose BTW is not former soldier that decide to call out on the Marine BS, not everything is true and no i don’t agree with getting rid of the Corp, but he make a lot valid pionts.
Cltmstrmn,
how do you know what type of training every soldiers in the Army has? every units is difference to stereotype the entire branch is not logical.
bottom line is America will stil be a powerful nation with or without your Corps.
No the US would be far better off without jarheads, its redundancy. Jarheads are incapable of fighting without support from any of the branches. They send fresh boot jarheads to other branches schools for follow on training. Jarheads are in capable of running schools and training by themselves. They are leeches and a cancer to the real branches of the military. Jarheads all belong to a cult which is a department of the Navy. Not a real true branch. Jarheads forgot that the original Marines ( which carry the honor of being the real Corps) was disbanded. Jarheads celebrate a fake birthday. Have fabricated historical embellishments at the cost of lives of other branches due to their fervor for their cult. Jarheads are a cancer to this country and the military as a whole.
You’re right, I can only comment on those units that I’ve seen train and seen in combat. Wasn’t impressed by most of those units. But then I ask you this. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE HISTORY OF THE MARINES IS FALSE? None of you were there. It’s he said she said bullshit. Its accusations could be false by a marine hater. Could the marines have over exaggerated their history? It’s possible but so could the army’s. That is where you dumb fucks are not grasping the concept. I understand that the marines history could be a little misleading for recruiting purposes but maybe not.
Keep eating crayons jarhead aka sandbag sallies. Jarheads are not special. Have fabricated nicknames to birthdays. The real Marines where disbanded along time ago. Blood stripes, fabricated history.
Devil dogs, fabricated history. Jarhead birthday, fabricated history. The real Marines where disbanded replaced by a cult that isn’t a real branch of the military, its a department of the Navy. No real branch of the military ever had legislation to disband them but the current jarheads who are a cult have. Devil dogs, fabricated. Birthday, fabricated. Blood stripes, fabricated. Deserters, facts. Cowards, facts. Jarheads belong to a cult, facts. Sorry but your a victim of indoctrination and brainwashing. Jarheads love their cult more than the country.
The Army does it too but the Marine take the gold metal.
“HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE HISTORY OF THE MARINES IS FALSE?
just read the comments posted on here and the article for validation.
one example: ask our average American and anyone for that matter, who fought against Japanese in the Pacific? and then ask them to name a famous battles fought in the Pacific.
Marine and IWO JIMA most likely.
let me remind you that there were many other bigger and more significant battles the was fought in the Pacific that barely get mention. IWO JIMA is one of many battles but this was the Marine biggest battle and was solely fought by the Marine, that is why i believe it is that famous. PR Machine working Overtime.
reality is the Pacific was fought with over 22 Army div. plus about 5-7 Army-aircorp, not to mention the most importance branch in the pacific was the Navy. The Navy i believe had more casualty then the Marine.
Yet people associate Pacific war with the Marine. Marine didn’t straight up and say we did all the fighting but your PR Machine implied that. Marine spend huge amount of energy selling themselves, other branch don’t, by default it give your average American the illusion that they did all the work, and of course it supported or taught as a Marine history that the the Army role in the Pacific was there to clean up after the Marine (i’m only saying this because i hear so many time from civilian and Marine). By not telling the whole story you’re basically lying, telling half truth. Other example would be the Marine hymn, you play a small role in the Mexican American war and the shore of Tripoli yet this was included in your song as though you did something spectacular by yourself.
On the hymn, it simple states we were there not that we were a pivotal role. It also says “we fight our country’s battles” not “we won our country’s battles.” what about the war in Europe. Doesn’t mention the navy there. It’s all about the army because they were the ones on the ground. Doesn’t mention the countless lives lost by German u-boats. I know the pacific had more soldiers than marines and also had more casualties. It hard to believe that the marines took ok Japan all by themselves when Germany is fighting 5 other countries including the U.S. Army. The marines don’t have the number to take on an entire country. Also when did the marines take credit for WWI. One battle is mentioned. The marines don’t take credit for winning WWI, there is no mention about defeating the Germans in WWII. They weren’t even involved in Europe then. So where are they taking credit for army accomplishments? Why because our “PR” talks about our accomplishments but the army’s PR doesn’t mention their accomplishments. Whose fault is that? And I it were false why wasn’t in trumped then. Why didn’t the army come directly out saying so. Even if you talked to people back then it would still be the same bickering that’s going on now. Even in this current conflict you have people on here trying to say the army was the key point in the battle of fallujah. I know personally that is a crock of shit. Yeah there were soldiers involved, I think it was some Calvary unit and 1 other army unit. The army was there but they were not the reason the U.S. Took fallujah. The marines were the main reason. Yes coalition forces and the army help but it was majority marines. So how does trying to convience people the army was the tip of the spear on that battle not taking away from marine accomplishments?
Fake news. Research more jarhead or all those red crayons messing up your grey matter. The jarheads would not be able to take fallujah on their own
I was not a marine, but respect the sacrifices of all services. This is an unfair comparison. The Army has many, many more personnel. All branches of the armed services are needed. Stop the stupid comparisons. BUT, more airman were lost in WWII, than marines–surprising, is it not?
Thank you for some other informative blog. The place else may I get that kind of info written in such an ideal approach? I’ve a project that I’m just now working on, and I have been on the look out for such information.
You’re an idiot A.G. You know absolutely nothing about the marines let alone the military.
Watch the following scikening display all you USMC whores.
Totally uncalled for. So what. This is just as bad as the hateful language that comes out of some Marines.
You’re out of line Durant and it’s stuff like that that hurts the thread and discussion.
MAJ Rod
USA Infantry
More BS. This is hardly reflective of the Marine Corps and it hurts your credibility to harp on it.
The USMC Cannot Even Protect Itself So WHY Does It Exist?
Friday’s Afghanistan attack wiped out 8% of US Harrier fighting fleet
Posted by Steve Mon September 17, 2012 at 8:09 am | Share via e-mail
Two Marines were killed and another nine members of collation forces were injured on Friday night at Camp Bastion – managed and operated by the British – in Afghanistan. I’m curious to know how many of you know we lost eight out of 10 Marine Harrier jets in Afghanistan during the attack.
Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 211 is based out of Yuma, Ariz. and arrived in Afghanistan from a previous deployment in April and had moved from Kandahar to Camp Bastion in July. From U-T San Diego.
One of two Marines killed when insurgents breached the main strategic base in southwestern Afghanistan late Friday night hailed from a Yuma squadron that lost six Harrier jets and two more that were significantly damaged in the unprecedented attack on Camp Bastion, Marine sources confirmed.
A Google search for ‘harrier jets’ in the news world provided a bunch of articles specific to the jets and the attack, but nothing from CBS, CNN, NBC, MSNBC, or ABC. TIME mentioned the incident in an awkwardly written piece that also mentioned NATO forces mistakenly attacked “women and girls collecting firewood.” Later in the article we learn these deaths – tragic if they were innocents – occurred during an attack on a significant number of militants. TIME did not feel it was necessary to find out more details.
Fox News thinks two Harrier jets were destroyed and they have not updated the story. The Associated Press mentioned the attack as well. That was it for the first page of the Google results.
Think the loss of Harriers sucks but is not a big deal? Think again.
■This single attack resulted in the Marines loosing 8 percent of the US Harrier fighting fleet. This is based on the estimate that there are 120 of them in service, of which about 20 are exclusive training aircraft. Wikipedia notes a similar number (119) in the fleet including the trainers.
■This was the only Marine Harrier squadron in Afghanistan, leaving a hole in close air support for troops on the ground until a replacement squad arrives.
■The attack represents the worst aircraft loss in one day for the US since the Vietnam War, and the worst for VMA-211 since Pearl Harbor.
■The last new Harrier rolled off the line in 2003 – almost a decade ago – and is set to eventually be replaced by the F-35B.
I ask a very salient question: The USMC Cannot Even Protect Itself So WHY Does It Exist?
Did you bother to read the article you posted..? It’s a British NATO/ISAF base, the Brits are responsible for the security of the base – not the US Marines. In fact, the squadron was moved there from Kandahar as part of the draw down of Marine forces in Afghanistan. Sure, Camp Leatherneck is there as well – but the Marines aren’t responsible for the security of Camp Bastion. Your question isn’t salient at all, it’s ridiculous based upon the facts in the article you posted.
From Djones121
9/17/2012 8:57 PM CDT
“Fourteen of the 15, well-armed attackers were killed and one was captured after they penetrated the perimeter of Camp Bastion and made it onto the flight line Friday, the military said.”
This attack needs to be fully investigated. I cannot comprehend how the Taliban could penetrate this base so easily. It sounds like there was no perimeter security whatsoever. The Taliban must have been planning and training for the attack for a long time.
I doubt that the YouTube video or Prince Harry had anything to do with it. More likely, it was planned for the 9/11 anniversary.
It’s called war stupid. People will die and vehicles will be destroyed. Are you telling me that soldiers haven’t died or lost vehicles and equipment. I can’t believe you’re that ignorant. And good job getting a source from Wikipedia you moron. Thats a real realiable source.
If you are going to advance an argument, in your case, the claim that we do not need a Marine Corps, you need to provide reliable references for your claim. The best references come from primary sources like autobiographies or journals. Secondary sources will do, but primary are preferable as they are right from the source. Further, you are in need of a proofreader, as the word, “states” in United States should be capitalized. Additionally, “irregardless” is a common word used by many in the military, however, it is not a correct term (note how the computer highlighted it in red here). Perhaps it has been passed down to you, as you claim Marine Corps lore has been passed down to us, as Marines. The reality is, that lore goes along with every service. Stories get bigger, the more mouths that carry them. You do the Marine Corps a disservice by posting information that can not be validated. Again, if you are going to make a bold statement, provide reliable information.
USMC Woman Marine Veteran
Good luck expecting a single citation, let alone one that wouldn’t be dripping with bias, I’m entering the Army here shortly, and I do like the Army, but I’m a Marine atm. They both have their individual good points, the clown who wrote this is obviously biased.
This article is filled with hyperbole at best an incorrect facts at worst.
Example 1) the assertation that the famed picture of the flag raising at Iwo Jima was staged is a misreprestation of the facts.Jom Rosenthal – the photgrapher, did not realize he had captured the famed photo and thus had a second phot take with the marines standing in front of it – which was staged. It wasn’t until the negativs got back to the US did the original and now famous shot was found. Because of the delay, it was erronrously attributed as staged at the time. Numerous articles and interviews have pointed this out.
Example 2) “irregardless” is not a word. it is a common mistake taht combines the words irrespective and regardless, which mean reltively the same thing.
I found these examples in just a cursory skimming of this article. It would be hard to take anything else in this article even remotely seriously when poor grammar, bad writing and lack of attributable facts can be found here.
I agree on Rosenthal’s picture was “staged” and your point on “irregardless”. I’ll even add the author’s contention that the Corps should be shuttered is not supported (and IMO way off the mark) but there were things said that were significant.
The Marines have taken credit for Army accomplishments or ignored huge Army contributions in Marine exploits. The Corps doesn’t need to “borrow” glory. It has a brilliantly glorious history full of singular accomplishments.
There’s a lesson there that might help cool the branch parochialism at most and the petty cheap shots at least.
Actually, the Marine Corps has been pretty successful, and this success has been acknowledged both by the citizens and government of our country. With respect to our sister services, we are simply better.
I’d write more, but I’m off to celebrate the Marine Corps birthday. Semper Fi!
LOL, no problem. Agree, “the Marine Corps has been pretty successful, and this success has been acknowledged both by the citizens and government of our country.” BTW the Army has been deemed the most important lately and before that the Air Force and others have held that honor.
You’re free to have your opinion of being “simply better”. Happy Birthday! Enjoy your party. The rest of the branches will continue doing the mission while your busy patting yourself on your back. 🙂
jarhead birthday is a fabrication. The real Marines where disbanded. The current jarheads are fake imposters who formed a cult that has infiltrated the military. jarheads are a cancer.
The majority of public think the Marine are better are due mainly through Marine PR, that what the Marine tell you and that what the Marine tell the public and because no one challenge them on it, everyone assume it true. Most citizen know very little the contribution each branch of our Arm-force have sacrifice for this country, they just assumed Marine do more than other (i’m talking about winning war), which is false. i would estimate 90% of the land battle are fought by the Army but the Marine get 90% public attention.
How would anyone know what being a Marine or Soldier is like unless they have been in it? So yeah, i guess it importance for the Marine to know that civilian thinks they are best whether it true or not it insignificant to the Marine.
Hey everyone thinks i’m the best even though they don’t know anything about me then it must be true, because they said so.
It is worth noting that while there are plenty of former soldiers, there is no such thing as a former Marine.
That says something to me
“Former Marine” is a construct created by Marines. If another service created some ridiculous descriptive term to describe a former servicemember would it be any more true? You’re guilty of continuing to believe your own press which is FINE. Just don’t expect everyone to.
I still consider myself a soldier and the United States Gov’t acknowledges my service in a myriad of ways until the day I die. It makes no difference what service one was in. That says something to all of us.
Happy Veteran’s Day!
I have over 20 years Regular and Reserve Enlisted experience and am currently a Reserve Army Officer. I have been to combat twice with the Marines. I can safely say that this country needs both services.
Despite some of the assertions in this article and replies, each service has defined skill sets and missions. As a Marine, we kicked in the door and let the Army take over from there.Our missions, as a rule, were very limited. We were not designed to survive long away from the Army. As a Soldier, I can say that our missions were expansive and long-term, yet with a few exception, the Army is too large to do much quickly and efficiently.
I will say that there are many in the Army, the 82nd, 101st, 10th Mountain, and Rangers who I would put up with Marines. Every single group has had successes, glory, mistakes, and shame. I am old and beat now but I respect everyone of these folks. I would go to war with any of these.
A few things to think about: I was 18 when I graduated from Boot Camp. I was angry, tough, and disciplined. The hard lessons of those 13 weeks I use to this day. I earned every single stripe and ribbon. Leadership was ingrained in everything. Every day in uniform of that 20 years was hard. I learned almost everything OJT and saw no schools outside of leadership ones. Everyone knew the standards and turds were obvious and did not get far.
I was 48 (at that time, I believe the oldest 2LT in the Army) when I graduated from Officer Basic (or BOLC) where I landed in the middle of my class. Half of the class, most of them 1/2 my age, ranked worse than a beat-up old man. I have been given so many opportunities and so much MOS training. I am grateful to the Army. However, I get medals and rank easily. I find the leadership training, though the Army tries hard, to be wholly insufficient. The Army is so large that upholding standards and inculcating leadership skills is incredibly difficult.
The author uses historical evidence that is no longer valid to support a modern argument. In doing so it seems more ax-grinding that an actual supported argument.
I am proud of my service in the Army and of the Soldiers I serve with. Yet, I will wear my Blues with my GySgt chevrons every chance I can. I earned every single piece of that uniform the hard way. That’s why Marines think and act the way they do.
I can understand what you are saying and trying to give both services credit is appropriate and commendable but some may take things the wrong way and even your substantial service might be misleading.
The Regular Army and Guard are four times the size of the Corps. Training varies by component, MOS/specialty and grade. What you may have seen might not be indicative of the whole or even half of the Army.
Though you may believe the Marines kick in the door and the Army follows the truth for the last several decades is quite different. That’s not to minimize the Corps’ desire to be an expeditionary force. It is. So is the Army.
The Corps excels in esprit and pride. In general I would say Marines are prouder than any service in being Marines but there are many that are rightly proud of their service. Other servicemembers pride in service doesn’t detract from the Corps. Its accomplishments are legendary but no more so than the Army’s. We can all think we’re the best in fact its important we do to execute as we both do but it’s a little much to expect to convince another branch one is “better” both at an objective or subjective level. many have tried and failed in this thread while causing ill will.
We al fight the same enemy. Happy Veteran’s day.
Very good post David. But I just cannot allow your comment “I get medals and rank easily” go unchallenged. Rank, sure, but medals, no. The Army is and has always been notoriously stingy with awarding medals. The Marine Corps on the other hand, is and has always been embarrassingly frivilous with the awarding of medals.
I certainly don’t know why, but I have always assumed it was simply another element of the Marine Corps’ feverent desire to fabricate heroes out of non-heroes within the Marine Corps for some sort of bizzare added bragging rights.
Actually, the Marine Corps is an absolute disgrace in its casualness toward awarding medals far out of proportion to deeds, whether supposed or real.
I’ll give you four examples:
“Major Boyington led a formation of twenty-four fighters over Kahili on October 17, and, persistently circling the airdrome where sixty hostile aircraft were grounded, boldly challenged the Japanese to send up planes. Under his brilliant command, our fighters shot down twenty enemy craft in the ensuing action without the loss of a single ship.”
“Colonel David Shoup- By his brilliant leadership, daring tactics, and selfless devotion to duty, Col. Shoup was largely responsible for the final decisive defeat of the enemy, and his indomitable fighting spirit reflects great credit upon the U.S. Naval Service.”
“With the adverse factors of weather, terrain, and disease making his task a difficult and hazardous undertaking, and with his command eventually including sea, land, and air forces of Army, Navy and Marine Corps, Major General Vandegrift achieved marked success in commanding the initial landings of the United States forces in the Solomon Islands and in their subsequent occupation.”
The first is Pappy Boyington’s citation for the Congressional Medal of Honor, the second is David Shoup’s, and the third is Alexander Vandergrift’s. Not one of those three remotely reached the basic criteria “For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty” to even earn consideration for the prestigious Congressional Medal of Honor, much less the CMH’s actual awarding.
Truly exposed, all three incidents bring disgace upon the Marine Corps, diminish the very CMH, and virtually steal the honor from the CMH’s truly deserving recipients. Let me give you two more citations:
“Valiantly placing himself at the head of his squad, Corporal Bausell led the charge forward against a hostile pillbox which was covering a vital sector of the beach and, as the first to reach the emplacement, immediately started firing his automatic into the aperture while the remainder of his men closed in on the enemy. Swift to act a Japanese grenade was hurled into their midst, Corporal Bausell threw himself on the deadly weapon, taking the full blast of the explosion and sacrificing his own life to save his men.”
“…despite the blanketing curtain of flying shrapnel and, personally destroying with hand grenades two hostile emplacements which menaced the progress of his unit, continued to move forward until a merciless barrage of fire emanating from three Japanese pillboxes halted the advance. Instantly placing his one remaining machine gun in action, he delivered a shattering fusillade and succeeded in silencing the nearest and most threatening emplacement before his weapon jammed and the enemy, reopening fire with knee mortars and grenades, pinned down his unit for the second time. Shrewdly gauging the tactical situation and evolving a daring plan of counterattack, Sergeant Cole, armed solely with a pistol and one grenade, coolly advanced alone to the hostile pillboxes. Hurling one grenade at the enemy in sudden, swift attack, he quickly withdrew, returned to his own lines for additional grenades and again advanced, attacked, and withdrew. With enemy guns still active, he ran the gauntlet of slashing fire a third time to complete the total destruction of the Japanese strong point and the annihilation of the defending garrison in this final assault. Although instantly killed by an enemy grenade as he returned to his squad,”
The first citation is for Corporal Lewis Bausell, 1st Bn., 5th Marines on Pelelui. The second citation if for Darrell Cole, 1st Bn., 23rd Marines on Iwo Jima. Now, do you honestly believe Boyington, Shoup and Vandergrift belong on the same stage with Lewis Blausell and Darrell Cole? Don’t you also feel a sense of embarrassment and disgust with the Marine Corps? And you can add Edson to that dispicable list as well.
When the enemy, in a subsequent series of violent assaults, engaged our force in desperate hand-to-hand combat with bayonets, rifles, pistols, grenades, and knives, Col. Edson, although continuously exposed to hostile fire throughout the night, personally directed defense of the reserve position against a fanatical foe of greatly superior numbers. By his astute leadership and gallant devotion to duty, he enabled his men, despite severe losses, to cling tenaciously to their position on the vital ridge,
So Edson commanded his unit in action. Do you see anything particularly gallant in that citation? Let’s just fabricate heroes so we can tell everyone how brave we all are, seems to be the Marine Corps’ sole motivation. “The Marines on Iwo Jima were awarded ??? Medals of Honor.” I just provided 4 glaring examples of the Marine Corps’ institutional disrespect for something even so revered and esteemed as the CMH, and I didn’t even look hard. I’m sure if I did, I could find you many more like it.
I defy you to show one example of the Unites States Army frivilously awarding the Congressional Medal of Honor to one of its members. And don’t say Douglas MacAurthur, because the president thought that up all on his own, and ordered it. In fact, the president tried to do the same with Dwight Eisenhower after the successful Torch landings in North Africa, but Eisenhower was insulted by the very thought, and sent word back to Washington not to even think of so dishonoring the worthy recipients.
On my last post I intended to state that I had over 20 years Enlisted Marine Corps service. It was implied but not stated.
The truth is easy lost or forgotten when myths and falsehoods are reiterated over and over again. “As a Marine, we kicked in the door and let the Army take over from there.” I guess that was a case in a couple of Pacific Island battles (Guadalcanal, Saipan) but I can’t think of any other occasions. The Army could follow the Corps’ lead and offer a counter spin. Well, the Marines could not take the islands alone so the Army had to rescue them, like at Khe Sahn. Then there is the whole myth of “First to Fight.” Again, can’t think of an instance except perhaps Wake Island.
Come on USMC! You have a glorious history and there is no need exaggerate, embellish or lie. Oh, was it David Vaughn that said, “I get medals and rank easily” in the Army. What, getting credit for something you did not actually do or deserve (kick in the door first and let the Army take over or First to Fight)?
great post there thrasherback.
Hopefully the truth will come out, i can only hope. When it does come out and the public are fully aware of it, there might not be a Marine Corps anymore Especially with the defense cutback and recruitment for the Corp would be down, if anything it will be a much smaller Marine Corp.
IMO, i thinks the Marine know this that why they have to constantly beat up the drum as loud as can. Marine for the most part live in half reality and half fairytale world(example; When soldiers, sailor, Airmen die they will be see the gate of heaven is guarded by The United Marine Corp.cute story, the Marine protect the President and other slogan and claim are completely false but they keep repeating it as if it fact), especially in their first term. The Marine have some of the best slogan that for sure but more than half of it are more for lord of ring.
Here’s the crux of the problem:
The Marine Corps systemically brags and embelishes, and at times even fabricates. They’re like Uncle Sam’s immature little red-headed step child, always crying for a little attention and respect to gain a personal sense of being relevant. They will trample the Army, Navy, or Air Force for a headline, and even decline the help of those other services if there is even a slight chance they may have to share the storyline. Like Harry Truman said: “The most dangerous place in the world is between a Marine and a television camera.”
The Army on the other hand, is fundementally mission-driven. If handed a mission, the Army will employ any means available to complete that mission, regardless of who receives credit. If they need air support, they’ll call on the Air Foce. If they need heavy gun support, they’ll ask the Navy. If they need a few more troops or tanks, they’ll include the Marine Corps. They are the mature service, the quiet professionals, and rarely trumpet their own horn.
Just read any post-battle publication from either the Marine Corps or the Army. Every Marine Corps’ battle analysist is centered around the casualties they took, the harshness of the terrain in which they fought, sacrifices they made. Every Army battle analysis is a generic description of the campaign, unit participation, movement, counter-movement, the enemy. Very rarely do you read of casualties in an official Army document. Very rarely do you get battle information in a Marine Corps document without first having to digest their casualties and sacrifices.
That’s significant, and here’s why. The Marine Corps actually played a very minor, and marginally significant role in World War II. Yet their publications would have you think they won the war, and fought the toughest battles. Nothing could be further from the truth. Here’s a pop question: What was the bloodiest island campaign in the Pacific during World War II?
Statistically, an Army rifleman serving in Europe was by far the most dangerous MOS during World War II. Of the U.S. divisions to suffer the greatest amount of casualties during the war, the 1st Marine Division ranked 8th behind, the 3rd, 9th, 4th, 45th, 1st, 29th, and 90th Infantry Divisions respectively. And those are sheer numbers, by percentages, the 1st Marine Division slips to number ten behind the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. Because you see, the 1st Marine Division was numerically twice the size of an Army infantry division. Seven Army divisions individually suffered far greater KIA, WIA, and total casualties then the 1st Marine Division despite being half its size. Who knew?
Know how many Marines died in the surf wading ashore at Tarawa? Not many. Fewer than 50 actually, and that’s probably generous. Most of the casualties were suffered inland. Know how many soldiers died in the surf wading ashore at Omaha Beach? Best estimates place the number around 2,000. While we’re on Normandy, about 10 relatively undersized Army divisions suffered KIA, WIA, and total casualty rates in one month in Normandy nearly equal to the entire Marine Corps’ rates during 4 years of fighting in the Pacific. The Army’s rates for 2 months during the Battle of the Bulge surpassed the Marine Corps’ for 4 years of fighting.
The Marine Corps fought an unsophisticated, second-rate enemy with inferior weapons and badly outdated tactics, posessing little or no artillery, virtually no armor, no air support, and no room or training to manuever. As the British were fond of saying:
“Unless you’ve gone to war against the German, you haven’t gone to war.”
The soldiers fighting in Europe had a favored expression during the war which pretty much explains the disparity in coverage, the distortion of the historical record, and the Marine Corps’ attitude toward efficiently getting the job done or maybe taking just a little longer and losing a few more lives for the proper news coverage:
“A Marine Corps squad consists of a squad leader, two BAR-men, five riflemen, and three photographers.”
Oh yeah, that pop quiz. The bloodiest island campaign of the entire Pacific War was on the Island of Luzon. Who knew…
Very interesting post thrasher. Some links to your stats would have made it a 10. Not to say you’re exaggerating in the least. It just makes you unassailable. I’ve copied your comments as a testament to how good/accurate I think they are. They’ll come in handy next time someone tries to portray the Army as a second rate fighting force. Thanks.
Some unsolicited advice, tossing a bone to the Corps will make it more difficult for those that predictably try and portray you as a Marine hater though I don’t think that’s your position. You come across to me as being sick and tired of being sick and tired.
That said I could not find a reference for Truman’s comment ref “the most dangerous place to be” or your facetious comment about the make up of a WWII Marine squad (which I’m sure you know was also larger than an Army squad). Any references would be appreciated.
His numbers aren’t quite right. He’s essentially comparing total Army casualties (kia, wia, missing, pow – also some of the numbers might include other allied nations at a quick glance) to Marine deaths. US National D Day Memorial Foundation are considered to have the most accurate count and they have total US casualties at Omaha the day of the landing at 2000, not total KIA.
You likely won’t find a source for the Truman quote or the supposed British one as I’ve never run across them in anything I have read. Nothing but this page shows up in internet searches and none of the folks across the pond I know are familiar with the quote in relation to WWII.
I’d say Thrasher might have good intentions but his numbers and quotes appear to be weighted in such a way to support his desired point rather than being rooted in historical accuracy.
No Geriant, my numbers are “quite right.” In fact, they’re “weighted in such a way to support” historical accuracy rather than any desire to support my point. Casualty figures are reverent, and any attempt at using them to portray anything other than honored remembrance is abhorrently obscene.
And I’m not “essentially” comparing anything other than United States Army casualty figures for Normandy with United States Marine Corps casualty figures for the Pacific war. You sited the National D Day Memorial Foundation, so I strongly suggest you check back with them before ever disputing my accuracy.
The Allied casualties figures for D-Day had generally been estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. Broken down by nationality, the traditional D-Day casualty figures were considered approximately 2700 British, 946 Canadian, and 6603 American. But recent research by the US National D-Day Memorial Foundation, which you chose to site, has achieved a more accurate – and much higher – figure for Allied personnel who were killed on D-Day. They have recorded the names of individual Allied personnel killed on 6 June 1944 in Operation Overlord’s amphibious assault, and so far they have verified 2,499 American D-Day fatalities, and 1915 from the other Allied nations, for a total of 4414 dead (much higher than the traditional figure of 2500 dead). Further research will probably increase those numbers slightly higher in future.
So you see, though you suspect my facts are “weighted in such a way to support his desired point,” my numbers are in fact entirely “rooted in historical accuracy.” Let me be more specific in weighting my numbers for you, so that you may understand I’m not distorting anything to achieve any desired outcome.
16th Infantry: KIA 443 WIA 528
116th Infantry: KIA 431 WIA 576
18th Infantry: KIA 57 WIA 147
115th Infantry: KIA 35 WIA 68
26th Infantry: KIA 19 WIA 20
175th Infantry: KIA 5 WIA 12
2nd/5th Rangers: KIA 138 WIA 92
741st Tank Bn: KIA 45 WIA 60
743rd Tank Bn: KIA 24 WIA 19
1st Engineer Bn: KIA 18 WIA 27
KIA 1,215
Those are the figures compiled for Omaha Beach on June 9, 1944. They obviously don’t include the hundreds of MIA, the hundreds that DOW, nor the 197 KIA and 60 MIA on Utah Beach. Nor do they include British, Canadian, Polish or French casualties. Fortunately the D Day Memorial Foundation has relentlessly pursued an accurate account, because the Army has never attempted to.
Nor are those numbers reflective of the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions, both of which suffered horrendous casualties on D Day, and subsequently in Normandy. In fact, in percentages the 82nd Airborne Division suffered greater casualties on D Day than any American division in a single day in history, and greater casuaties in Normandy than any American division in any battle, of any war.
The 82nd Airborne Division departed England with 6,420 paratroopers. Only 6,321 survived the flight to jump. Of those, 409 (6.47%) were KIA the first twenty-four hours. Not casualties, KIA. On October 25, 1945, with a final determination on MIA, and accounting for DOW, the 82nd Airborne Division suffered 1,282 KIA during its month in Normandy. Including the division’s subsequent glider and seaborne reinforcement, that’s 14.24% KIA. During that same time, the division suffered 4,631 WIA (51.45%), for a total casualty figure of 5,913 (65.7%). I defy you to find a division that suffered a higher percentage of casualties in American history. Even Pickett’s division did not come close.
In 47 days fighting in Normandy, the United States Army committed 11 infantry, 2 airborne, and 2 armored divisions to combat, about 205,000 troops. They suffered a total 63,360 casualties(31%). Excluding the Air Corps’, not that the Marine Corps ever excludes its air component, the Army’s total ground casualties were 57,654 (27.63%), with 14,293 KIA (7.21%), and 43,221 WIA (21.08%). In five years fighting the Pacific war, the Marine Corps suffered 19,733 KIA, and about 89,000 WIA. Considering 1 month relative to 60 months, that’s pretty close. And no, that doesn’t include the British, the Canadians, the Polish or the French.
And know what else Geriat? In the United States Army’s conclusion to the battle for France, the Army suffered another 66,455 ground casualties in the next month of August, with 15,583 ground KIA, and 49,013 ground WIA. That’s 124,109 ground casualties, 29,876 ground KIA, and 92,243 WIA during that summer of 1944 alone. And no, that doesn’t include British, Canadian, Polish or French. Nor does it include the Air Corps, not that the Marine Corps ever excludes its air component from its numbers.
Should I go on?
NORMANDY IWO JIMA
DDay DDAY
70,000 Troops 70,000
2,499+ KIA 548
5,184+ WIA 1,755
1,928 MIA 18
9,611+ casualties 2,321
47 days duration 39 days
205,000 Troops 120,000
14,293 KIA 5,885
43,221 WIA 17,272
57,654 casualties 23,157
No Geriat, I’m not “esentially” comparing total Army casualties with Marine dead, nor am I including British, Canadian, Polish or French casualties. I am in fact, simply comparing the Army casualties in Normandy with the Marine Corps’ casualties over the course of 5 years. And I don’t do so to diminish the Marines’ who fought and sacrificed much. I only do so to set the record straight.
The fact is, the Marine Corps played a relatively insignificant role in World War II. They fought a substandard enemy, with inferior weapons, little or no artillery, virtually no armor, and no room or training to manuever. They may lead you to believe they fought the toughest battles, against the fiercest enemy, and made the greatest sacrifices, but that is just not so.
I could throw numbers at you from an Army sideshow in the Hurtgen Forest that would make every island campaign in the Pacific seem insignificant numerically with respect to casualty figures.
I’ll leave you with one more statistic. If you break down the numbers, which I am certainly not going to do for you right now, but suffice it to say, break them down to Army Ground Forces, specifically Divisional/Non-Divisional Forces only, versus Marine ground combat forces, and you will find that the dogface GIs in Europe suffered 31% casualties, while the combat Marines suffered 19% casualties.
Geriat – I don’t know what happened to my previous post.
I would differ with your characterization of thrasher’s remarks.
Thrasher has already addressed Normandy. I won’t reiterate my points that didn’t post except to stay he’s pretty safe when he says 50 Marines died in the surf in Tarawa vs an exponentially greater number at Omaha. The Atlantic Wall is a historic fact and clearly dwarfs the emplacements faced on Pacific beaches by Army and Marine units.
His stats regarding the rankings of casualties in a comparison between Army Infantry divisions and the 1st Marine is solid.
His Truman quote and Marine squad composition joke might not be attributable to specific individuals but they are appropriately descriptive of the Corps propensity to publicize its activities right or wrong. There’s little doubt that the Corps also keeps track of its accomplishments with an almost Germanic gusto.
Characterizing the majority of his points as slanted while totally ignoring the accuracy of his division casualty comparisons is a misrepresentation. His quotes might be slanted (just like the multitude of pro Marine quotes out there) but the greater point is unassailable.
You know.. the more time I spend on the internet the more I weep for the death of reading comprehension.
Go back and look at Thrasher’s statement in his original post that I replied to.. go ahead, I’ll wait. Shouldn’t take too long to scroll up and look at it.
Ok, got it? Now, let’s see what he says..
“Know how many soldiers died in the surf wading ashore at Omaha Beach? Best estimates place the number around 2,000.”
Perhaps read it slowly.. Thrasher states the number of soldiers who died at Omaha Beach as around 2000.
Now, let’s take a look at my comment which is apparently abhorrently obscene:
“US National D Day Memorial Foundation are considered to have the most accurate count and they have total US casualties at Omaha the day of the landing at 2000, not total KIA.”
With me there? Total US casualties at Omaha the day of the landing at 2000, not total killed.
Now finally let’s take a look at the numbers Thrasher thoughtfully provided in his reply:
“They have recorded the names of individual Allied personnel killed on 6 June 1944 in Operation Overlord’s amphibious assault, and so far they have verified 2,499 American D-Day fatalities”
Those American fatalities are for all operations on D-Day, which encompassed quite a bit more than Omaha beach (I would hope you were aware of it, Thrasher seems to get that point confused a bit as he flips back and forth speaking of Normandy and Omaha). There’s also Utah Beach, the paratroops (whose casualties are not assigned to any of the beach landings but to Normandy operations overall), troops inserted by glider, the naval forces present (few people realize how many sailors lost their lives on D-day, 1/5th of the casualties were US Navy and Coast Guard), and the flight crews. Pointe du Hoc links Omaha and Utah beaches, I confess that I am not sure where the D-Day Museum foundation allocates the fallen Rangers though I suspect with Omaha figures as is usually done.
That being said, Thrasher’s original quote I responded to is wrong, where he states 2000 soldiers died he should be stating that there were 2000 casualties at Omaha. Thus my response. If he had decided to include this from two paragraphs down of his selected quote we find this:
“The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.”
I’d also like to point out that his casualty list for Omaha is for more than the first day – he states it is for June 9th but it appears to be a total count covering the 6th through the 9th. It includes a regiment that landed at Omaha on June 7th (the 175th) so their losses would be after the point of contention here.
And, as far as Tarawa goes.. his figures are a bit on the light side. With only a brief bit of research I can find reports of an 800 man wave having only 450 men reach shore. While certainly there are some wounded in the total who did not reach shore and possibly some who were returned to the ships after their landing craft were stuck on the reef, it seems highly unlikely that with one of the smaller waves seeing almost half of the marines and navy corpsmen not reach the shore that only 50 died trying to reach the shores of Betio. Also, it should be pointed out that Tarawa become ‘bloody Tarawa’ due to it being the first opposed amphibious landing of the war for US troops. The total killed in a shade more than three days was similar to total killed in six months at Guadalcanal, it did not help that before official casualty reports were known the media was reporting massive US losses during the assault with accompanying gruesome photos of the dead in the surf, tangled in barbed wire on the beaches, etc..
So yes, his greater point is assailable as he is equating total casualties for Army operations to Marine deaths. Casualties will always be a much higher number in total than just the deaths. And to further this point, his comparison of D-Day and Iwo Jima forces is a bit off. Total US forces assaulting Iwo Jima over the course of the battle is 70,000, not 120,000. Thrasher appears to be extending the battle a few days beyond the time when it was considered secure and including the forces that landed to turn Iwo into an island air craft carrier while troops committed to the Normandy invasion numbered roughly 73,000 on June 6th (23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops). Now, some of the troops may not be soldiers I grant.. however the ending total after 47 days appears to be woefully short of the actual number of soldiers in Normandy. On July 25, there were roughly 812,000 US soldiers in the Normandy area (Source: Zetterling, Niklas (2000). Normandy 1944: German Military Organisation, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness. J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing Inc – while primarily dealing with the German forces he also details the allied forces that opposed the Germans, in this case on page 32)
But hey, continue with the one-sided bashing of one of the branches of service that protects this country. And by all means, take the word of anyone wanting to bash the Marines as gospel, they wouldn’t be misrepresenting things as I apparently did when using, you know, actual facts and figures.
I’ll leave you with a name to refute one of Thrasher’s other rants here about Medal of Honor recipients:
Adolphus Greely.
Citation: For his life of splendid public service, begun on March 27, 1844, having enlisted as a private in the U.S. Army on July 26, 1861, and by successive promotions was commissioned as major general February 10, 1906, and retired by operation of law on his 64th birthday.
Link: http://militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=49
Be well.
Geriat – Read thrasher and your posts. He made more points than just D-day yet your assessment of his whole post was largely based on D-day and quotes weren’t from folks cited which wasn’t the point of the quotes. Not intellectually honest on your part. That was my primary point as to the fault in your critique my reading comprehension is fine. Thanks for the concern.
Comparing the Marine experience at Tarawa and the Army at Omaha risks many misconceptions. The truth is Tarawa had resistance on the beaches but it was mostly past the seawall off the beach. Not the same as Omaha. It took days for the Germans to marshal forces inland which were not as defended as the beach. Remember all along that Rommel’s plan called for stopping the allies at the beach and pushing them into the sea with armor that wasn’t released until days later.
Second, if you think more Marines died on the multiple beaches or surf of Tarawa than the one beach of Omaha you simply don’t understand the battles, the plans or the strength of the two enemies. The Atlantic Wall did not feature fortifications and emplacements constructed over years beyond the beach until the Army hit the hedgerows MILES inland. There are no reliable casualty reports for what happened at Omaha because it was that horrible and it’s a pretty safe assumption that most casualties happened on the beach. Saving Pvt Ryan was just a movie but the scenes of machineguns shooting down into Higgins boats, mined beaches and concrete pillboxes looking down on a bare beach aren’t hyperbole. When whole companies are wiped out its hard to submit strength reports and frankly the Army has a cultural weakness in not documenting in minute detail every accomplishment as the Corps does.
I don’t have a desire to tar and feather the Corps but many of Thrasher’s points are accurate though impolitely stated. I wouldn’t have said the Japanese were second rate or characterized the Marines contribution in the Pacific as relatively minor though the Corps has repeatedly portrayed its performance in the Pacific as what won the war in that theatre. That is as much an overstatement as the Marines role being relatively minor.
I’m not going to participate in the MOH discussion. I don’t believe I’m qualified to 2nd guess a very stringent awards process. Thrasher brings up some good points but I don’t think any service is immune from some overstatement or creating heroes tyough today’s process seems to be becoming disturbingly political.
Best
MajRod,
It’s that pesky reading comprehension thing tripping you up once again.
Please go back and re-read Thrasher’s initial post very carefully. Now, when you are done with that please list for me the casualty figures he lists for US Army units other than Omaha Beach. In replying to him I used the only figure he gave initially, which he stated was the amount of US Army killed at Omaha Beach on Dday. That figure is clearly wrong – even when using the selective quote used by Thrasher in his follow up post. The only thing close to intellectual dishonesty here would be contained in Thrasher’s posts provided he is willfully distorting facts to fit his perceived narrative. And it’s harder to get more intellectually dishonest than using quotes that are either mistaken, misstated or flat out fabricated to further a point. While the sentiment of them might support the overall thesis here if they are not real quotes said by real people then they should be dismissed and not considered. To do anything else is being, as you said, intellectually dishonest. Here, I’ll give you a real Truman quote that can be used to illustrate the main point here – one that’s even cited by Marines:
“The Marine Corps is the Navy’s police force and as long as I am President that is what it will remain. They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin’s.”
Now, please go back and read my posts and point out where I stated or implied that Marine losses at Tarawa were higher than at Omaha Beach or on Dday.
Also, take some time to actually look at the Tarawa battle. You will find that your description of the scene at Omaha is very similar to what the Marines, Navy and Coast Guard faced at Tarawa. Coastal guns, machine guns, mines in the reefs and ashore, concrete bunkers with well-sighted lines of interlocking fire and fortified elevated positions to fire down into landing craft and any troops on landing beaches. But I guess since it’s the Japanese (apparently an ill-equipped, ill-trained and inferior force according to Thrasher) those defenses don’t really count or something. Was the totality of the losses greater than D-Day? Of course not, the sheer size of D-Day dwarfed Tarawa – hell, the entire battle of Tarawa (not just the landings) covered an area that can fit within the entirety of just Omaha Beach with room to spare.
Geriat, surely you’re aware of the “Pyramid of Honor” established by Act of Congress on July 9, 1918. The essence of the Act was to protect the Medal of Honor by establishing by law, degrees of service to the country, each worthy of recognition, and at the same time, clearly defining the type of deed and circumstances necessary for the award of each medal in descending order.
The Act was particular to the Army, and established the DSC, the DSM, and the Silver Citation Star, each lower in precedence to the Medal of Honor. Subsequent legislation passed on February 4, 1919, established similar awards for the Navy. And thus, the “Pyramid of Honor” had been established, elevating the Congressional Medal of Honor to its current-day prominence.
Prior to that, the original “Medal of Honor” was proposed by Senator James Grimes of Iowa, Chairman of the Senate Naval Committee, and introduced as a bill in Congress in 1861 “to promote efficiency in the Navy.” The Medal was established by Congress with Public Resolution 82 on December 21, 1861 to “…be bestowed upon such petty officers, seamen, landsmen and marines as shall distinguish themselves by their gallantry in action AND OTHER SEAMAN-LIKE QUALITIES during the present war.” (The caps are obviously mine).
A subsequent bill on July 12, 1862 authorized the Medal of Honor to be “presented to Army non-commissioned officers and privates for gallantry in action AND OTHER SOLDIER-LIKE QUALITIES.”
When the Medal of Honor was first established in 1861, the intent was for its use only during the Civil War. But because the Medal of Honor had been the only Federal decoration, its popularity soared with the growth and federalization of the country, and it was quietly decided to continue its issuance post-war. The laws governing the criteria for awarding the Medal thus were forced to keep pace, and underwent a continuous evolution until 1916, and the subsequent creation of the “Pyramid of Honor“ established in 1918.
The Medal of Honor of 1861 to 1916 holds very little similarity with the Medal of Honor post-1917 to today. Physically, the early Medal of Honor was so frequently counterfeited the Secretary of War was compelled to patent the actual medal on April 23, 1904. And abuse was rampant. Retroactive requests for the medal were still being submitted 40 years after the end of the Civil War. Hundreds of Medals of Honor were awarded into the Twentieth Century for actions which took place during the Civil War, leading to the oft-stated charge that you could receive the Medal of Honor by mail-order.
The growing abuse brought about a slew of successive legislation to strengthen and protect the Medal of Honor. Eligibility standards were tightened and further defined, time constraints and requisite documentation standards were introduced, and instituted. But still, the Medal of Honor continued to be politicized into the early part of the Twentieth Century. Between 1904 and 1917, two degrees of eligibility actually existed for the Medal of Honor. During that time, it could be awarded for either “Extraordinary gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of their lives above and beyond the call of duty against an armed enemy of the United States,“ while at the same time could be awarded to “those who distinguish themselves by extraordinary heroism in the line of their profession, not in direct action with an armed enemy.” The second, is obviously a vague standard, rife for abuse.
As an example of just how casual the Medal of honor was considered and distributed between the Civil War and World War I, it was said by both Douglas MacArthur’s and George Patton’s biographers that each man submitted personal requests for the Medal of Honor during the First World War. But by then, the “Pyramid of Honor” had been introduced, and the modern Medal of Honor had been adopted. The modern version, the Congressional Medal of Honor, was created by Section 122 of the National Defense Act on June 3, 1916. In that Act, the integrity of the Medal of Honor was finally and conclusively protected and elevated to irrefutable standards, the standards we currently associate with the Medal today.
In fact, Congress and the Army were so determined to institute absolute deference and reverence to the Congressional Medal of Honor, that Section 122 allowed the Army to convene a “Board of Review” in 1916 to “examine all awards and eliminate all those considered inappropriate.” Up to that time, 2,625 Medals of Honor had been awarded, and the Army zealously set out to bring those previous awards in line with the new standards. By February 15, 1917, the Army committee determined 911 of those awards, about 30 percent, or 1 out of every 3, were frivolous. All 911 names were struck from the list of recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor, and they were instructed to return the medal they had received. None did, including Adolphus Greeley.
Nevertheless, Adolphus Greeley’s award seems perfectly within keeping with the Medal of Honor’s original intent of recognizing “seaman-like qualities” or “soldier-like qualities,” and certainly within the politically charged and abused standards of the period between 1861 and 1916. But they would hardly seem within the current standards set by the 1916 Act of Congress, which re-defined and raised those standards to ones we associate with the Medal of Honor today. Similarly, Vandergrift’s, Boyington’s, and Shoup’s awards hardly reach that standard established in 1916 either.
Again, there is not one spurious recommendation for the Congressional Medal of Honor from the Department of the Army post-1916. The same cannot be said of the marine Corps, and probably the Air Force.
I’m perfectly aware of the history of the Medal of Honor, though you seem to be a bit ignorant of a few things. The ‘Pyramid of Honor’ doesn’t involve rules about the MoH per se, the ‘Pyramid’ defines the awards beneath the MoH and sets the MoH above those awards. The act that created the ‘Pyramid’ changed things to make one MoH, previously there were two and several individuals were awarded both the Army and Navy versions until the 1918 act combined both awards into one. The change in 1918 to the MoH was to make it an award given by the President for acts of valor that went above and beyond the awards in the ‘Pyramid of Honor’, i.e. Distinguished Cross, Navy Cross, etc..
Greely’s MoH was awarded to him on March 27th 1935 shortly before he passed away. It was awarded to him for lifetime achievement.. as it states in his Citation for the award. So, it falls after your stated 1916 event. Greely was not asked to return his MoH nor am I aware of any attempt on his part to do so. His MoH was awarded in contradiction of the 1916 Army warrant that the award be given for ‘combat action and risk of life above and beyond the call of duty’. You can spin it how you want to fit your agenda, but Greely, while a Soldier who accomplished great things and who was undoubtedly brave (plus he has one of the great beards of all time), he never saw combat. Thus, your premise that there hasn’t been anyone in the Army who received a spurious MoH since 1916 is, well, incorrect. Given your past posts here I have no doubt you will find some way to convince yourself that this isn’t true or it will be qualified through some gymnastic wrangling of logic and truth.
Boyington’s MoH is roughly equivalent to the one given to Army Air Corps Richard Bong, both were high scoring aces popular with the public at home. Bong’s citation isn’t much to look at either:
“For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action above and beyond the call of duty in the Southwest Pacific area from October 10, to November 15, 1944. Though assigned to duty as gunnery instructor and neither required nor expected to perform combat duty, Maj. Bong voluntarily and at his own urgent request engaged in repeated combat missions, including unusually hazardous sorties over Balikpapan, Borneo, and in the Leyte area of the Philippines. His aggressiveness and daring resulted in his shooting down 8 enemy airplanes during this period”
And while there are others who have questioned Shoup’s MoH, I don’t think it can be claimed he shouldn’t have been considered. He was wounded before even reaching the beach, established a command post within yards of a Japanese position and without radio communications with the majority of his forces ashore directed the battle while under constant enemy fire. Personally, I’d no more deny him the MoH for his actions than I would General Wainwright’s for the defense of Corregidor.
Most of these (while likely deserved) were somewhat political in nature and also likely done with the desire to use the recipients to inspire the folks at home to buy war bonds.
Also, out of curiosity who were you with as part of the 31st RCT at Chosin? It’s quite possible if you were actually there that my father pulled you off of the ice of the reservoir. Or some of the gentlemen in the 31st RCT through my father and the South Korean revisit program for vets of the Korean War that I know might be familiar to you. Strangely enough, none of them seem to harbor the animosity you do towards the Marine Corps.
Hey Geriat, I haven’t forgotten you, I’ve tried to respond to your last post a couple times, but I keep running out of time. But I just noticed something you said earlier, so just quickly in the mean time:
Let me make perfectly clear, my use of the words “abhorrently obscene” were in no way directed at you. I’m truly very sorry that you even read them that way, and that I could have written them so sloppily they could so easily be misconstrued. You certainly have never said anything even remotely approaching such consideration. In fact, my impression of you from your numerous posts is of a thoroughly thoughtful and classy individual, devoted to and interested in preserving the memory of some of this country’s most glorious chapters, and many of this country‘s most amazing people. Those words were written in defensive response to my numbers being called to account, that‘s all. I was simply inferring that for me to play loose with those type numbers would in fact be, obscene.
And I don’t bash the Marine Corps, I love the Marine Corps. Well, Marines at least. I have a best friend who was retired at 19 by the Marine Corps from Vietnam (2/5), and a nephew/Godson who was retired at 20 by the Marine Corps (2/8) from Iraq. The Marine Corps doesn’t readily hand out retirements to 19 and 20 year olds, so you can imagine their sacrifice. Believe me, I have no issue with Marines.
I’ll get back to you on the other issues when i get a chance.
3rd Battalion/7th Infantry
Geriant, just quickly:
Point du Hoc does NOT link Omaha and Utah Beaches.
Secondly, if we are discussing D Day and Normandy, you should at least be aware of the salient fact that, as a V Corps element, “the paratroops…and glider reinforcement” were a Utah Beach element. Thirdly, 1/5 of U.S. DDay casualties were certainly NOT naval. Believe me, I hold the greatest respect and admiration for those Coasties driving those landing craft, but 1/5? Where did you ever come ip with that number? Besides, most landing craft operators at Omaha Beach were British.
reinforcement” are
Also, take some time to actually look at the Tarawa battle. You will find that your description of the scene at Omaha is very similar to what the Marines, Navy and Coast Guard faced at Tarawa. Coastal guns, machine guns, mines in the reefs and ashore, concrete bunkers with well-sighted lines of interlocking fire and fortified elevated positions to fire down into landing craft and any troops on landing beaches. But I guess since it’s the Japanese (apparently an ill-equipped, ill-trained and inferior force according to Thrasher) those defenses don’t really count or something. Was the totality of the losses greater than D-Day? Of course not, the sheer size of D-Day dwarfed Tarawa – hell, the entire battle of Tarawa (not just the landings) covered an area that can fit within the entirety of just Omaha Beach with room to spare.
GERIANT,
I just read this absurd statement you made some time ago. Gheeez, you’re a real clown. Have you ever studied the battle on Tarawa? I have have. If you had, then you would know the 2d Marine Division’s own AAR clearly states that the incoming waves faces 1 Japanese machine gun. YES, that was 1 (one) Japanese machine gun. Why don’t you study before you speak, or write!
Thrasher I think he is referring to ribbons. The army gets ribbons for everything however the marine corps does n
I’ll give him that, and badges. It’s pretty disgusting. But no organization abuses higher level awards like the Marine Corps. I’ll also give him that the Air Force is nearly as bad. But even if the Marine Corps wants to play that invent-a-hero game, they should feel free to toss around Navy Crosses, because they’re just officer candy anywway, and no one cares about those. But there is no excuse for giving away Congressional Medals of Honor just to play pretend hero.
Hey Citmstrmn, you know what’s truly sad? Find a picture of a kid from the 1st Marine Division, even one who may have gone the whole way, Guadalcanal, Cape Gloucester, Peleliu, Okinawa, or a kid from the 82nd Airborne Division who went the whole way, Sicily, Italy, Normandy, Holland, the Bulge. They’re wearing 2 rows of ribbons max. And one of them is usually the Purple Heart.
Then look at a picture of that clown Petaeus, a career staff officer who eventually blew his way to a very short, ticket-punching stint in command of combat troops. His ribbons are almost rounding his shoulder and running down his back. The freakin’ guy never even heard rifle fire, much less ever fired a weapon. He gets all those ribbons, and he doesn’t even have a CIB.
It don’t mean shit, I get that. But still, it just isn’t right.
An old 82nd vet told me once, while recovering in a hospital near Naples after being wounded at Anzio, they came around giving out Purple Hearts. Purple Hearts were brand new, and none of them new what they were. When told the medals were for being wounded, they were all embarrassed, and refused to wear them. Different era i guess. Petraeus would have asked for two.
The real fact everyone is missing is we’re all tools of a corrupt government. Sorry for all the ad hominem attacks from my fellow Marines…well written article.
Well said USMC Infantry vet, well said. Certainly the most succint, and probably the best post on here!
Thrasher I totally agree with on the whole ribbon thing. Even medals such as the purple heart. I had a sgt. That collapsed both lungs and lost the ability to control his right arm from a roll over accident due to a I.E.D. Nearly died, should have died, no purple heart. I had 2 lung surgeries after an incident. Nearly died, no purple heart. (trust me I don’t deserve one nor am I complaining that I didn’t get one. It would have been wrong if I did). However a navy corpseman, (and I love those guys) gets a small piece of shrapnel in his leg, pulls it out with tweezers and puts a bandage on it – no threat of death but he gets a purple heart. I think it just depends on who is in your chain of command.
Yeah Cltmstrmn, I don’t know shit about Iraq, or Afganistan for that matter, wasn’t there, and never followed either really. Although my nephew was there with 2/8 and his company and its sister company had one horrific year as far as casualties. And his brother was in Afganistan with 5th SFG, and they fared little better. That’s about the extent of my exposure to either.
Obviously I know Korea, but World War II is primarily my thing. And I know that in the Army and the Marine Corps, if you commanded a successful invasion, successful advance, or simply a successful attack, you were assured a Distinguished Service Cross or a Navy Cross.In the Navy, any submarine commander who sank anything, even the lowliest freighter, was automatically awarded the Navy Cross (like that wasn’t his job, and his crew wasn’t even there). And I get that, its a career officer resume-building thing.And it’s combat, so it’s still better than all those Distinguished Service Medals, and Commendation Medals, and Joint Commendation Medals, and Joint-Joint Commendation Medals, and Joint Commendation-Commendation Medals. Those pentagon officers look like bad movie caricatures of random South American dictators.
Officers wearing a DSC or a NC doesn’t mean shit. But an enlisted man with a DSC or a NC is big time, the real deal. If the officers felt compelled to share their medals with an enlisted man, it was a significant event.
Sorry to hear about your injuries, and I hear you. My nephew was blown about two football fields from the turret of his Humvee by an IED, then burned his arms up pulling people from the trailing Humvee. He was so badly hurt the Marine Corps retired him, but no Purple Heart. Go figure.
re: 2/8 in your post…as a boot in late 70’s 8th Marines were at Camp Geiger (named after aviator Maj Gen Roy S. Geiger, who was first USMC Officer to command a USA Corps when LtGen Buckner was killed on a hill of what is now “mainside” Camp Foster, Okinawa)….the School of Infantry East was also at Geiger, but the 8th Marines were referred to as the “Geiger Tigers”, just a little factoid for inquiring minds…there is also a commemorative plaque on the hill where Gen Buckner (Simon Bolivar Buckner) was killed, or at least was when i was last there in mid 90’s…it’s not real far from where the SF bubbas had their CP in late 70’s, but methinks they’ve been at Torii Station for awhile, if they are still there
Since the admin of this website is working, no uncertainty very soon it will
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Majorod,
one of the thing that bother me about the Army is why is it that some basic training is more stressful than other, even at Benning some come company were more stressful and demanding the other. Is there a good reason behind this?
Well keep in mind there are three different basic training courses conducted at Benning by different Brigades. The Infantry basic is different than the Armor than the “all others”.
I empathize with you that the Army would be well served to give everyone more combat focused training but even the Marine Corps doesn’t do that. The Army tried to do some of that with the warrior ethos/creed emphasis and inclusion of more combat skills after the 507th Maint Co fiasco (which has since died away). Unfortunately, it was only targeted at the incoming crop of enlisted and officers which was never going to change the Army’s greater culture.
The Army is a big organization with many more micro cultures than the Corps. It’s frustrated me to no end.
Even within the different courses there some variance and it all depends on the people. Some of the training is more, stressful, demanding, better and worse.
It’s not that uncommon. Seen it throughout my career and the dozens of schools I’ve been to. Really can’t be eliminated unless you have the same people always conduct the same training and even then they’ll get burned out. The key is establishing a band of excellence and keeping training in that band.
This is a huge point (for me). Ive been to both sides. I said earlier (like 3 years ago in this post, hahah), that the Army could learn a ton from the Marines. One of them is basic.
The Army gets a bad rap because most Marines are taught that all Army training is Gort Jackson. Its not. Benning and Knox are a far different animal. But the reality is it ‘ahould’ be the same. Thats something that gives every Marine his/her cockiness. Every decil dog out there has to do the same boot camp, regardless of MOS.
To be fair the Army is huge, needs to train FAR more POGs thsn the USMC. Its probably not feasible to send every cook clerk and supply guy to an Indantry based course, simply because youd be wasting a ton of money. (Yes, wasting. Sorry fellow devils, but a few weeks at Pendleton and MCT does not an Infantryman make……almost like summer school back in high school).
But there absolutely should be an ass kick and upping of standards in the ‘lighter’ boot camps like jacksoj and FLW.
Then again….to be fair and for the sake of argument…youd have to integrate to coed too to truly make it accross the board…
I have come across another example of the way the Marine Corps distorts History.
From Leatherneck.com http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?21741-Marines-helped-defend-Baltimore-from-British
“British land forces tried to flank the fort, sending 1,250 Royal Marines toward it with scaling ladders. Marine artillery repulsed the attack, and the Royal Marines were forced to retreat.”
According to Walter Lord’s The Dawn’s Early Light, The British Fleet loaded 20 small boats with about 400 Sailors and Marines and sent them to enter the ferry branch of the Patapsco River. They were to create a diversion, to distract American troops from Hampstead Hill, the defense position east of Baltimore confronting the British ground force.
Of the 20 boats, 11 got lost and never returned to the fleet. The remaining 9 were discovered and taken under artillery fire by a number of American defense positions. They retreated losing two boats and an unknown number of casualties.
It was not a serious attempt to assault Fort McHenry, and the US arines did not play a crucial in defeating the attack
Correction:
I should have said that 11 of the 20 boats got lost and then returned to the British fleet. Sorry.
I should have also said the US Marines did not play a crucial role in defeating the attack.
Another example of how admirers of the Marine Corps distort history.
This is the URL of a YouTube video posted by a poster with the user name of USMarineRifleman0311, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmTafsuoWTg. The video is entitled “Continental Marines routing the British Infantry at Princeton”.
The way the video describes the battle, 131 Marines under John Cadwalader confront two British regiments and rout them after being reinforced by units of the Continental Army. It is not true.
John Cadwalader commanded a brigade of militia which included the Marines. At Princeton, the British Infantry first confronted General Hugh Mercer’s brigade and defeated it. They were on the verge of routing Cadwalader’s brigade but were held off by two pieces of Continental Army Artillery set up on a hill.
At that point, General George Washington brought a number of fresh Continental Army regiments into the battle. He rallied Cadwalader’s militia, formed his troops into a line, advanced them on the British and then ordered his men to open fire. That is what shattered the morale of the British regiments and won the battle.
The Continental Marines DID NOT lead the assault on the British infantry, let alone rout them.
I believe these kinds of distortions, basically Marine admirers giving the Corps credit for the accomplishments of other services, particularly the US Army is what generates ill will towards the Marines, not any jealousy over the Corps’ actual combat record.
long time since reading here…but why all the hate and discontent…bottom line is all services are different and each good at what they do, it’s the synergy of all combined that make US military what it is, and historically they have all done great things as well as not so great…less bragging, name calling and cussfighting…and more flexibility and understanding, and respect for those that have served and especially all that have given the full measure…. i’m retired USMC 78-98…enlisted and officer and have served with all branches and all the above applies, we all may be and wear different shades of green or blue, light, dark and in between….but we all bleed red….so, why can’t we all just get along as professional servicemen and vets…..PLEASE
after posting earlier today i tried to do a quick review of the thread, which is not an easy task, i made several observations which are just my opinions and nothing more (1) not knowing the authors intent, my guess is that it was to make a point(s), but i’m not sure he attained his goal, if it was to espouse the concept of disbanding the USMC, then it fell short, each service has its own mission and we all rely on each other to win battles and wars when it comes down to it, i don’t think disbandment should ever be an option, in fact with defense spending cuts on the horizon we should instead be looking at ways to maximize the synergy of our service capabilities to remain the world superpower (2) the longstanding rivalry between the services is alive; but i’m not sure how well, as always the 10%er’s that lack the faculties to stay on topic in a professional manner stoop to the unfortunate and undesirable name calling, insults, and mistruths that turn the healthy rivalry into a negative and unproductive thing i.e. it bothers me that some have attacked and shown disrespect for a commissioned officer of the US Army that i’ll not name, it is true that as Marines we have always been proud of our heritage and our PR machine has always been robust, but in defense, we have had to, just to survive the relentless pursuit of disbanding us, but whether it’s a blog or a parade deck, we as Marines are better than resorting to this and should expect more….remembering that it is the rank and not the man that we salute and respect, to do otherwise demonstrates those at fault to be lacking in maturity and overall acumen expected of someone among the ranks of “professional” serviceman (woman)…i’ve found that in many cases the loudest and most boisterous person in a room often has the least to offer to any debate, and often it’s the quiet guy (regardless of rank) that can offer jewels of wisdom (3) there are a lot of well informed folks here and a lot that are not and have to resort to the old barracks trash talk to defend their case….feel free to trash me all you want because i am now and will always be at peace with myself and my choice to be a Marine, it just bothers me to see the level of hatred displayed by some here, i have served with all branches in some capacity during my 20 years as enlisted and officer of Marines 78-98 and though different, i found them all to good at what they did, i’m also proud to have had older brothers in USN and USA during Viet Nam, and just like my father who was a grunt in 18th Regt of 1st ID in WWII and 19th Regt of 24 ID in Korea, am proud of them all, its easy to find fault with the other guys…an Army Major shoots up a bunch of folks and then we hear of Marines pissing on the dead….and on and on, all services have had their successes and their failures and it’s good to have a bit of rivalry, but that’s as far as it should go….read some of the past posts and ask yourself if it sounds like we’re all on the same team….if the enemy reads also then imagine how they are laughing at us and how divided we are….getting off the soap box now, so go ahead and fire for effect because it won’t bother me…i’m just proud to have had the opportunity to serve our great Nation and think we do dishonor to our fallen comrades when we cross over the line between good natured ribbing, and supporting opinions with facts, vice talking trash
the bashing continues, as a retired Marine I have no problem at all bringing to the attention of anyone who cares, a USA unit that set the mark….a unit that had every reason not to fight , but fight they did, while their relatives were in Japanese internment camps…inquiring minds should take the time to read up on the 442 RCT, you may be humbled once you read of their accomplishments, success, and ferocity in battle…i call it as i see it and anyone that can’t take their USMC hat off long enough to read about one of – if not the – most decorated units in US history, should ask themselves why…their motto was “Go for Broke” and their performance supports the fact that they were one of the hardest hitting and tenacious outfits to ever wear an American uniform, i love the USMC and always will, but not to the extreme as to believe the USA and all branches have not had their fair share of squared away outfits
The 442nd Regimental Combat Team was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare. The 4,000 men who initially came in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2.5 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, ultimately earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded an unprecedented eight Presidential Unit Citations.[53] Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[54] Members of the 442nd received 18,143 awards, including:
21 Medals of Honor (the first awarded posthumously to Private First Class Sadao Munemori, Company A, 100th Battalion, for action near Seravezza, Italy, on April 5, 1945; the others upgraded from other awards in June 2000). Recipients include: Barney F. Hajiro
Mikio Hasemoto
Joe Hayashi
Shizuya Hayashi
Daniel K. Inouye
Yeiki Kobashigawa
Robert T. Kuroda
Kaoru Moto
Sadao Munemori
Kiyoshi K. Muranaga
Masato Nakae
Shinyei Nakamine
William K. Nakamura
Joe M. Nishimoto
Allan M. Ohata
James K. Okubo
Yukio Okutsu
Frank H. Ono
Kazuo Otani
George T. Sakato
Ted T. Tanouye
President Barack Obama and his guests applaud after signing S.1055, a bill to grant the Congressional Gold Medal. 52 Distinguished Service Crosses (including 19 Distinguished Service Crosses which were upgraded to Medals of Honor in June 2000)
1 Distinguished Service Medal
560 Silver Stars (plus 28 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award)
22 Legion of Merit Medals
15 Soldier’s Medals
4,000 Bronze Stars (plus 1,200 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award; one Bronze Star was upgraded to a Medal of Honor in June 2000. One Bronze Star was upgraded to a Silver Star in September 2009.)
9,486 Purple Hearts
On October 5, 2010, the Congressional Gold Medal was awarded to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the 100th Infantry Battalion, and Nisei serving in the Military Intelligence Service.
It’s not about the Marines. It’s not about the individual, and it’s not about the Corps. Some of you are trying to make the same old tired, rotten comparison between two disparate American forces. We all revel in history and tradition, yes? Like to claim we are who we are because of the men who came before… well, then we could all stand to realize a couple things and save ourselves some trouble.
First off, it’s been tried for hundreds of years, and the sooner you realize you can not win this fight like no one has been able to before, including those better men, the sooner you’ll be able to put all the idiocy aside. You can’t win because either way you hack it, you’re fighting the finest in the world. Americans. I’m sure in the back of your minds – if you scrunch your foreheads real good and think hard enough that you forget all the petty, angry bullshit – that you’ll remember this is something you probably believed once. Believe it again, or we’re all truly screwed as a country. We were Americans first once, before we were marines or soldiers, sailors, airmen, rangers, PJ, recon, SEALs, D-boys, MARSOC, scouts, infantry, support, whathaveyouwhathaveyou.
This leads into the second point. No, it’s not about the Corps or its marines. You’re loved, you’re respected. While you may like to think the opposite, even at lower points become the victims (everybody loves an underdog), it’s the truth. One your own branch has a huge part in. You quote and promote like it ain’t anybody’s business; and you’d be right… it ain’t nobody’s like it is the Marines’. One of the many things you do well as a unit is sell yourselves. Some on this site may argue it’s your best thing. You know who you want to be, how you want to be seen like no other military service. You are steeped in prestige, and that’s the way you want it, because that’s how you sell it. And that’s a good thing. A lot of recruiting is a marketing game, and because you play it well, you get a lot of good kids who want to challenge themselves. Coming out of the public into the Marine Corps, these enlistees know that in the Marines, they’ll be the ones doing the fighting when the alien space armada finally comes down to steal all our water. And probably our women. Preferably the officers’ wives first…
And again, that’s fine. It’s good. Even if it’s not the whole picture of reality, it doesn’t change the fact that those boys and girls who are motivated, who look at a “All men are created equal…” bumper sticker and decide “I want to be a Marine when I grow up” are going to be driven recruits. That feeling of reverence doesn’t take a lightweight. Hell. I’m sure a few tired old dogs, squids and flyboys smile, chuckle to themselves and mutter “fuckin’ jarhead” fondly as they look up to a trunk full of SEMPER FI! stickers driving on the highway. And to that assish minority of soldiers, sailors and airmen who would benefit from understanding this all. The Marine Corps is an organization, and any organization thrives that knows how to sell itself. Don’t begrudge marines the chance to market themselves. It’s called capitalism. And besides, I’m sure the salty sergeants and gunnies don’t take long to kick the Black Ops bullshit out of the boots.
The problem is when that attitude permeates, sticks around like that little burr that plopped its spiky ass down right between a couple of your toes. Not even the big one. A couple of the smaller ones, just so that it has room to shift around and the good spot just when you were getting used to it. The problematic marines call their swagger “confidence”, something that we all just misinterpret as “arrogance”. Guess what? No one is buying it. There’s a thin line between confidence and arrogance that some – the minority, even – of marines just can’t seem to see. Maybe it’s the thin red line, and these leathernecks are color blind. I’m not hating, and in no way do I or many of the users here hate marines. Everyone in their right mind has a healthy respect for the Corps. We’re just trying to prescribe the right eye wear.
I keep a Chinese cookie fortune in my wallet: “Confidence with humility. Pride with conceit”. I’m not telling my lucky numbers, but suffice to say, I have learned Mandarin for “sweet bun” a few hundred times. Not that there aren’t soldiers who could use a reality check. But the Marines mentality that rakes in so many benefits has its draw backs. An attitude of arrogance isn’t something that is unique to marines; but there does existent a disproportionate amount. If there weren’t, there wouldn’t exist this whole debate in the first place. If you think it can be boiled down to “the Army is jealous”, than you have a poor understanding and a commitment to perpetuate the cycle of stupid.
In direct relation to the article in comments are these facts: soldiers are proud to be what they are, or they wouldn’t fight so strongly to protect their reputation. I’m sure marines can relate. Middle ground isn’t too hard to find. Soldiers are proud of what they are and what they do, and while they may talk about it less, it doesn’t mean they don’t feel it. They have a lot to be proud of. They enabled the creation of the nation and since then, their spilled blood has been the largest donor keeping her alive. They saved the western world from the Germans twice, and alongside the Marines, from eastern imperialism in the Pacific islands on on the Korean peninsula. And today, if the Army’s there, you know America means business. It’s a testament to them that the greatest losses of the US Army have been against its own in the Civil War. There would be no United States without its Army.
Murphy, Millett, Hooper, York, Shughart, Gordon, Smith, McGinnis, Petry, Giunta, Miller, Monti, Romesha. These men’s actions reflected great credit upon themselves, their units, and the United States Army.
Marines have a glorious history all their own. They know it, too. From the time you set foot in boot camp, since probably before then, you’ve been surround by the history. So you know what it all means just as well as anyone else. Know about sacrifice and courage and valor. Cherish it like soldiers do, sing and write about it like them. You understand that much. So why is it that when it gets down to the line you forget all of that glory? That you cease to understand?
The marines on Makin were pussies. Fallujah was fought by a bunch of bullet sponges who, you know, will eventually be remembered as dying for nothing, if at all. Jason Dunham was just an idiot gorilla who was so dumb that when he tried to kick a grenade away like a ball, he tripped and took the blast up his ass. Chesty Puller was a fat, ugly invalid. Marine sacrifices have been unnecessary. You are unnecessary. Nothing a marine has done has ever made a difference. Every jar head who ever died, died for nothing.
That feeling. That feeling is what you don’t understand. The rage after having been told, “yeah, dude, nice job, but you’re a piece of crap”. I think for the most part, soldiers are pretty tolerant. And they should be. Marines have earned a little leeway. But respect is a two way street. You aren’t worthy of taking what you aren’t capable of giving. Soldiers have more than earned the courtesy of having their sacrifices treated with dignity. Hey, a little admiration couldn’t hurt either.
But understand that when you trample on graves and wade through blood to fulfill self aggrandizement, you’ve taken pride and image too far, past that thin red line and into enemy territory. Anyone would fight like hell to protect what they hold closest to their hearts. And some think that professional soldiers would behave differently? When it is suggested that when the hallowed fallen sacrificed, but not as much as ours did; that the bloodied, outnumbered and hopeless created their own hope and prevailed, but not as well as we did; that your brothers, fathers, sons and daughters may have paid the highest of prices for our country’s sake – four OUR sake – but their price tags were cheaper than ours… you’ve become less than a warrior should be. Hell, less than a man should be. And to boot, you’d be dead wrong. Take that feeling, savor that feeling, and then use it to understand.
Once again, I understand it’s not all. But it’s enough. Enough to prompt an article, replies, this long-winded one too. Too many times between too many prodigal sons and estranged brothers from both sides. I wrote before of the blood vets have donated to this country; in differing amounts, at different places, in different times. But we can’t ever let ourselves forget something or all that life will simply have been poured into a foregone corpse: all gave for the same cause, and that cause takes only one blood type.
GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU PRISSY LITTLE privaleged PUNK. YOU ARE ALL THE SAME . A BUNCH OF CRYING ASS PUNKS. While we get second hand shit in the MARINES AND STILL DESTROY EVERYTHING IN OUR PATH. YOU FUCKS JUST CANT FACETHE FACTS ,You constsntloy bitch like RAGS and yet you have the berst of all equipment sand we still do more WITH LESS NO MATTER WHAT . THINK NOT ? LOOK IT UP AND LOOK UP THE BUDGETS . Read Marcus Lattrell saying all he needed was 300 Marines let loose and would have taken IRAQ IN MONTHS , . BUT WE SAW THE TRUE FIGHT IN TAKING THE FIGHT TO AFGHAN AND IRAQ — NO ?/ ADD UP THE NUMBERS PEA BRAIN THOSE SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES ., YOUR ALL TOUGH GUYS TILL THE SHIT GETS REAL AND FACTS ARE WRIUTTEN AND YET YIOU STILL ARE EITHER TOO STUPID TO READ OR JUST REFDUSE TO READ IT !! AND I MEAN REAL !! HEY BUT YOUR ALWAYS WELCOME TO GET IN THE RING AND SEE WHAT YA GOT STUMPY! EMBELLISHES.? LOL HEY WE DIDNT WRITE THOSE comments and praises ASSHOLE LOOK UP YOUR OWN ARMY GENERAL QUOTES aND THE HISTORY WRITTEN as quotes =factual . . FUCKING BULLET HEAD @@@ NOT HAPPY WITH MARINES AND THEIR FIGHTING AND THE SMALLEST NUMBER OF FIGHTING FORCE YET THE HIGHEST DAMAGE AND DESTRUCTION / KILLS ? I HAVE PLENTY OF FRIENDS IN OTHER SERVICES THAT WILL TELL YOU FIRST HAND OF THE BRAVERY AND RUNNING INTO FIRE TO SAVE THEIR BROTHERS SeaLs , RECON F -RECON. G Berets , MARSOC , whose quotes are not only published but also on national news station LIVE interviews of THE BRAVERY AND SKILLS OF US MARINES , SO , GO GET A LIFE AND THEN go fuck yourself with it you YOU DELUSIONAL MUT MUGGED DICK HEAD !! SEMPER FI FROM ALL THE FEW, THE PROUD 185,000 of US ..HEY— Dont you douche bags have at least that many on sick call DAILY ? or better yet in the BRIG OR ON THE CRAPPER –FUCKING SHIT BIRD!! EAT IT BITCH !! FUNNY THE ONES THAT TALK THE MOST ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE PICKED UP THE WEAPON THE LEAST OR SAT IN AN OFFICE GETTING PAPER CUTS FOR A CAREER @@. NOTE THIS DOES NOT GO OUT TO TRUE AMERICAN FIGHTERS IN THE US ARMY WHOM I HAVE BEEN WITH IN MANY A FUCKED UP SIT REP. THEIR BRAVERY I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND AND WE HAVE UTMOST RESPECT FOR THEM ALL. IN ALL PARTS/UNITS OF THE US .ARMY
FINAL NOTE TO: FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION ??—GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE . WE WILL GET OUR BOY SCOUTS TO KNOCK YOUR SAD DICKS IN THE DIRT FUCKING ARROGANT DO NOTHING FROGS= YOU ALL MUST HAVE SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN U.S. SERVICES AND THEIR BRAVERY AND LOSS OF LIFE ON THOSE BEACHES GETTING YOUR FUCKING LAND BACK FOR YOU WHILE YOU SAT AND SERVED NAZI OFFICERS . REMINDER–GO SEE OUR AMERICAN BROTHERS BURIED BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS IN YOUR SOIL YOU THANKLESS COWARDLY UNGRATEFUL CHEESE EATING MICE !! , BIG SHOUT TO BROTHERS IN SeaLs, ROYAL MARINES AND BRIT SAS . TOUGH AS NAILS , AND WONT FLINCH A FUCKING HAIR WHILE HAVING TEA,. YOU GOTTA LOVE THEM !! AND MY ROOTED BROTHERS IN THE IRISH REGIMENT , CRAZY BRAVE AND TOUGH !
We def know your a jarhead, all them crayons have gone to your grey matter. you wrote nonsense and did it in all caps like it proves more that you made a valid point.
The last samurai, was a Marine, and also Tom Cruise.. I think we know who the better branch is.
“Good grief.” (Facepalm)
“The Last Samurai” is a fictional movie. Tom Cruise’s character is an Army officer. The tale is based on stories by Jules Brunet, A French Army Captain.
Cruise or his character were never Marines but your post just proved some of the article’s points about some attributing exploits to the Marines that have no standing in fact…
i was thinking the same things MajorRod. Wow, must be hard to distinguish fact from fiction once you became a Marine.
Speaking of Movie, quite a few Marine believed Hamburger Hill was also base on the Marine and not the Army.
What are these D.I teaching them?
This entire stream is all very amusing. And some of the comments by marines, or ex-marines, or supposed marines, are absolutely fantastic.
I spent four years in the army, first with Co. C, 1st Battalion, 75th Ranger Infantry Regiment, then with 10th Special Forces Group. Since then, I returned to school, and during graduate school agreed to fact-check for a professor who is an acknowledged scholar on the Barbary Wars. I since became a fact checker for numerous authors and publishing houses, and I was for some time a credentialed researcher with the National Archives, the CMH, USAAHEC, and the NHHC among others.
Honestly, I had zero personal interest in the Barbary Wars, but I did have intensive personal interest in certain other deployments, namely Operation Eagle Claw, the aborted attempt to rescue hostages from the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, Iran on April 23-24, 1980. As a young Pfc with the Ranger Regiment, I held a busload of Iranian citizens at bay while I watched the goings on at Desert One with a detached interest. But I did always wonder just why the mission was aborted.
Well, for all you “gung-ho” marines on this sight, I strongly suggest you read the Holloway Report. The Holloway Commission was formed to investigate just what wrong with Eagle Claw, and at Desert One. And basically, the marines “pussied out.”
The Holloway Commission consisted of six flag officers with a broad range of military and combat experience. It was chaired by Admiral Holloway, an eminent naval officer who was a decorated gunnery officer on the destroyer USS Bennion during the Battle of Surigao Straits, which is obviously enough said, but he then became a fighter pilot in Korea, then did rise to CNO. With Admiral Holloway were; General Alfred Gray, a Korea and Vietnam marine who rose to Commandant of the Marine Corps, General Samuel Wilson, an army World War II OSS and Merrill’s Marauders veteran, who went on to command the 6th Special Forces Group and become director of DIA, and is generally credited with creating USSOCCOM, General Leroy Manor, a World War II P-47 pilot, then a fighter pilot in Vietnam with 275 combat missions before rising to command of Air Force Special Operations Force, from which be became commander of a joint task force to plan and command the rescue operation at Son Tay, General James Smith, who in Vietnam commanded 1st Squadron, 9th Cavalry, 1st Cav, 1st Brigade, 1st Cav, and then the 1st Cavalry Division, before rising to command the Army Flight Training Center, and General John Piotrowski, who as a young officer joined the original cadre of the Air Force’s famed “Jungle Jim Project,” which became the Air Force’s Air Commando Wing, the renowned Search and Rescue crews during Vietnam. A pretty diverse group of distinguished air, ground, and special ops warriors, not a ticket-punching bureaucrat among them.
Anyway, their primary finding was that the marine helicopter pilots, forced upon the Delta team through back channel political intrigue by the Chairman of the Joint Chief’s J-3, a marine, Lieutenant General Shutler, did in fact “pussy out” during the mission. Colonel Charlie Beckwith, Delta commander, and senior army officer in the operation, quickly realized during training that the flying skills of the marine helicopter pilots were “substandard.” But as the training evolved, Beckwith came to believe they also lacked the “necessary motivation” to pull the mission off. Colonel Kyle, the senior Air Force officer in the operation came to agree with Beckwith, and together they pleaded with General Vaught, the overall commander, to replace them with ready, trained, and experienced Air Force crews. But General Vaught, hamstrung by the well-placed marine General Shutler, was bureaucratically stuck with the marine helicopter pilots.
As the mission began, 8 helicopters with marine pilots flew off the USS Nimitz for the 600 nautical mile flight to rendezvous at Desert One in Iran with 6 C-130s to transfer assault troops and refuel. Well, it took only 140 miles into the flight for the first marine pilot to quit. Helicopter 6 landed in the Iranian desert because of a BIM indicator light. According to the Holloway report, “A BIM warning indicates a possible loss of nitrogen in the rotor blade, but does not necessarily indicate that the pressure loss is a result of a crack.” In fact, the Holloway investigation found BIM indicator lights were frequent occurrences on the RH-53 helicopters the marines were flying, and that RH-53 helicopters had never experienced an actual spar or rotor crack, ever. Up to that date, 210 rotor blades had been serviced for BIM indicator lights, and none were found to be damaged. In 229,296 blade hours on the RH-53, not one crack had ever been found in a rotor blade spar. The lights were a frequent occurrence, and it was generally known that there was no apparent reason for the lights. But the marine pilot of Helicopter 6 refused to continue. He abandoned his intact aircraft in Iran, and was picked up by Helicopter 8.
At about 250 miles into the flight, the helicopters hit a dust storm. As soon as the marine flight leader in Helicopter 1 saw a clear area, he landed, followed by helicopter 2 (A clear violation of mission security). Unknowing, the remaining helicopters continued on, and after a thirty-five minute rest, Helicopters 1 and 2 resumed their flight. But now the helicopter formation consisted of three separate groups, rather than the tight knit tactical formation.
Then, for no apparent reason, Helicopter 5 abruptly turned around and returned to its mother ship the USS Nimitz. On board Helicopter 5 was the senior marine commander, who assumedly endorsed Helicopter 5 pilot‘s arbitrary decision to quit the mission. Helicopter 7 then dropped out to search for the disappeared Helicopter 5, and the marine helicopter flight formation had now completely dissolved, and lost all tactical integrity.
As the 6 out of the original 8 helicopters arrived piecemeal into Desert One, the marine pilots strangely began advising both Colonel Beckwith and Colonel Kyle that the helicopters should be abandoned at Desert One, and the mission should at that point be aborted. Colonel Kyle was perplexed, but Colonel Beckwith was enraged. When Colonel Beckwith went to confer with the senior marine on the ground, the marine commander ignored him. Becoming impatient with the marines, Colonel Beckwith “got physical” with the marine commander, to, in Beckwith’s words, “get his attention.” (According to several Delta members, the short-tempered Beckwith tossed the marine commander off the helicopter bulkhead several times.)
In response, the senior marine reported to Colonel Kyle a short time later that Helicopter 2 was leaking hydraulic fluid, and could not continue. When Colonel Kyle suggested to the marine commander the helicopters were operating under wartime standards, which state “That all aircraft are expected to continue the mission despite degraded mechanical condition,” the marine commander refused to continue with the mission. Helicopter 2 quitting the mission brought the helicopter force below the minimum mission criteria of 6 helicopters to transport both Delta and the hostages. The mission was over. Helicopter 2 was ordered destroyed, and all other aircraft were ordered to return to their departure points. Then of course came the unfortunate accident when the rotor blades of Helicopter 3 hit the refueling C-130, and they both exploded.
When Colonel Kyle reported the “mechanical problem” of Helicopter 2 to Colonel Beckwith, reducing the airlift below the minimum requirement, Colonel Beckwith growled, “Those marines finally found an excuse to quit.”
And the American hostages remained hostages for nearly another year…Semper Fi
This is an outright fabrication. Most of what this person relates never happened.
George,
Marine Corps Commandant General Alfred Gray said it happened. Certainly you know him. Think back, as a Marine Corps Comamndant surely you were forced to jerk off over him while you were at Parris Island.
…or was that only Puller?
Semper Fidelis to the Marine Corps.
Nunquam Fidelis to the United States of America
Im sure an 18F is gonna somehow dick ride jarheads. nice try jarhead.
Both soldiers and marines fought valiantly under the harsh circumstances and occasional shitty leadership or funding they were given. Both are better than airforce and navy though =P
I could not resist commenting. Well written!
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sounds like a bunch of book worms to me.
No Don, sounds more like a bunch of careful statistical analysists to me. You need to look under the covers to find the truth, because you sure as hell ain’t gonna get it from the Marine Corps.
18fox is just jealous because he is an army bitch whose drill sergeant was a 5 foot black woman. What a fucking pussy bitch.
with a homo name like that, sounds like you should be very familiar with bitches.
and I’m not jealous. certainly not of you anyway, because you don’t even know what combat is. I have a Purple Heart, and I traded my left leg for it. what do you have? besides your mouth?
i’ve seen marines in combat, heavy combat, and they ain’t shit. in vietnam they were fucking useless. pussy chopper pilots who wouldnt even fly evac missions, and stumbling, bumbling infantry in the bush, who could get out of their own way. semper fidelis…LOL…bunch of fucking clowns.
It sounds like you are a racist scum bag and a moron to boot!
Thanks to Soldiers like 18fox the world has been free.
If you only knew what an 18fox was. Keep eating crayons jarhead. The real Marines where disbaned. The current cult has fabricated and distorted history. Devil dogs, fabricated. Blood stripes, fabricated. Corps birthday, fabricated. Winning the war in the Pacific, fabricated. Deserters in Korea, facts. Cowards in Vietnam, facts.
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This is just one person’s opinion from someone who can’t spell or use proper grammar.
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Actually the 141st infantry _ Natl Guard took Fallujah
And the damn marines took credit for it
and the army took guadalcanal, and the marines took credit for it…
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thrasherback – too hard to find your post in this thread. Agree with much you said but I think the backing away from “Devil Dog” is just a symptom of the PC sickness that has infected all of the services.
The Army is garbage, I have watched and fought along side those knuckleheads for almost a decade…you guys don’t even know how to use state of the art weaponry hence the awesome hand-me downs
You’re a nitwit. Look at your weapon. It’s either stamped USMC or bought/issued directly to the Marines. It’s a myth that equipment is handed down to the Corp. From the top of your head to your feet the Corp has unique equipment. Heck, you’re bayonet is even different.
There is no little old lady with sneakers stenciling the EGA on old Army equipment. The “hand me down equipment” lie is an attempt to claim credit over something that doesn’t happen. It’s like a lot of the Marine history discussed here.
Sgt Rudy Chavez – thank God for people like you.
This country could barely function without gullible morons like you. In the field, Marine Corps troops are little different from Army troops. The greatest difference between the two services is represented in the officer corps. Historically, Marine Corps officers are absolutely atrocious combat commanders, while Army officers are traditionally, and demonstrably, more intelligent, skilled, dedicated, and courageous than Marine Corps officers.
here’s a fact for you all:
Army KIA in Vietnam were 32% officers, 44% noncoms, and 24% enlisted men.
Marine Corps KIA in Vietnam were 12% officers, 24% noncoms, and 64% enlisted men.
Casualty statistics are the foprensics of war. Though they certainly can be manipulated, the KIA statistics do not lie. Marine Corps leadership obviously enjoys leading from behind. Those officers and sergeants you’re listening to Chavez, they’re full of shit. Seriously.
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History-wise… Some Marines acted like a bunch of kids during war.. playing god and thinking they have everything that it takes…
Piraino’s a typical revisionist of history. Free with his version of the ‘facts’. Nothing new. Just another fool re writing history to fit his version of the events. I’m an old dog face and a combat vet and I know a fighting man when I see one. Let me tell all of you one thing. They may be vain and they may be arrogant but they are first class fighting men. The battle record of the Corps is second to none. I mean none.
You go ahead and run them down if you want. But if this old doggy has to ever to it again give me a bunch of USMC 0311’s anytime. If any of you ever witnessed a Marine rifle squad in the attack it is pure lethal beauty. Trust me no fool in his right mind wants to be on the receiving end of it.
Sgt 1st Class J.N. Taylor U.S.A.
“The battle record of the Corps” most certainly is second to many. Most histories of the Marine Corps were either written by, or under heavy influence from, the Marine Corps.
Guadalcanal is one of the Second World War’s most overrated battles. If you read “pure” histories of that campaign, you will find the Marine corps’ performance, and lack of tactics and agression was actually very roundly critisized.
Tarawa was equally overrated, and several of the Marine Corps’ top leadership in that campaig were documentally caught lying and embellishing acounts of the campaign and its casualties. The 16th Infantry Regiment lost more men in forty-five minutes on Omaha Beach than the 2d Marine Division lost on Tarawa in three days. Likewise, the 116th Infantry Regiment took more casualties in forty-five minutes on Omaha Beach than the 2d Marine Division took in three days on Tarawa.
Peleliu was just a complete disgrace, and unworthy of a professional military organization. Several Marine Corps commanders on Peleliu should have been relieved.
Saipan, and Iwo Jima were legitimately tough campaigns, and the Marine Corps certainly equitted itself proudly. But, as usual, it fought both with overwhelming numbers, overwhelming fire support, and complete dominance of the air.
Okinawa was vastly overrated. Though certainly a tough campaign, it paled in comparison with the carnage and bloodshed of most European battles. And again, was fought with overwhelming numbers and overwhelming fire support. A luxury rarely experinced by the Americans on European battlefields.
If you want to learn a battle record second to none Sgt 1st Class J.N. Taylor, I suggest you read up on the 3d Infantry Division from July 1943 to Appril 1945. Or the 82d Airborne Division from July 1943 to April 1945. The record and acomplishments of those two organizations, and against daunting odds in comparison with Marine Corps units, will absolutely astound you if you are so easily taken by the alway questionable portrayal of the Marine Corps in World War II.
Granted, the Marine Corps had a stellar record in the Korean War. But again, an absolutely pitiful record in Vietnam.
Marines certainly are among America’s greatest fighting men. But as an organization, the Marine Corps is a corrupt and overrated military organization built entirely upon hype and bullshit. It refuses to deploy unless virtually guaranteed of success, placing its phony reputation ahead of the national interests.
i might add that Okinawa was fought by both Army and Marine. the main Japanese force was on the Army sector, it a save bet to say 70% of the fighting was done by the Army in Okinawa.
You sound like a POG. If you ever seen real light fighters, Airborne, Rangers you would know that what you are regurgitating is false. Also a quick search of your names comes from dudes assigned to SOF to females. Nice try jarhead and using a name that you do not have. Keep eating crayons.
Pretty slanted article I’d say, beyond slanted actually, more like you had an axe to grind. I’m guessing you failed Marine Basic, I’ve seen this before, whatever you blew off some steam. [Because this does seem weird that you would go to such an extend to rip on the USMC, I mean this is like half a book you have written here–that’s alotta hate, this goes beyond some random rage dump that we all occasionally take when we are pissed and online. I think I would classify this as a troll material]
This article was a tldr; though I did manage to get to about the 6th paragraph and found mistakes you have made:
–Just wanna point out a fact that you have…failed to mention. The reason why there were so many casualties in Iwo [Marines] and not in Papua or others [Army] is because the Japanese were defending the Home Islands as opposed some remote outpost of the Japanese Empire. Since these were the Home Islands they were told to defeat or die and they [The Japanese] fought tooth and nail, including the civilians which committed suicide on mass upon defeat [Since obviously you would defend your Homeland and Family with more vigor that some remote outpost that you have no connection to].
–Secondly the Iwo flag raising was NOT staged. The famed Iwo flag raising was the SECOND photo, your right about that. The FIRST one was staged, since it was just a group of Marines standing around for a photo. Just like the ones you take for a family photo or whatever. Since the flag was too small they did it again and raised an even larger flag; that is were the famed Iwo flag raising [the second one]. When asked the photographer said it was staged, he was referring to the FIRST one and NOT the SECOND one. Since obviously the cameras back then were not like the ones that you have today, he had no clue as to what photos were what. This is were a lot of the mix up happens [Especially if you don’t do your homework, as you obviously didn’t]
–I’d like to state that I am NOT a Marine nor do I have any relative in the Corp [or any other branches of the Service] but even me with my meager understanding of the Corp History and only reading up to 6 paragraphs have already found….mistakes and have corrected them for you 🙂 Semper Fidelis to the USMC!
Arturo, just for the record: that whole “desperate home island defense” claim is just another marine corps fallacy.
Japanese records released since the end of World War II make clear that the only defense the Japanese considered desperate was their defense of the Philippine Islands. The Japanese high command was actually little concerned with holding the outlying islands, but made clear that defeat in the Philippines meant the end of all their raw materials, and defeat in the War.
And marine casualties on Iwo were not that high. In both numbers and percentages, casualties on Iwo paled in comparison to Normandy, the Battle of France, the Battle of the Bulge, and even to the casualties taken in piercing the Seigfried Line in the spring of 1945.
Arturo STFU and GTFOH. You never served and don’t know shit. Go back to your parents basement. You have shown no proofs. Your just another dick rider of a cult. You only got down to the 6th paragraph and found errors and showed no proof to validate your statements. The reasons these fake jarheads ( real Marines where disbanded) say Semper Fi is they are loyal to the Corps and not the country. They are a cult that is heavily armed not a real branch of military and is the Navys “Army”. They do not do their real mission, they have tried to justify their existence from the beginnings of their cult. devil dogs, fabricated. Blood stripes, fabricated. Korea, Deserters. Vietnam, Deserters. Iraq/Afghanistan, cowards and imbeciles who have gotten people killed due to their false bravado and ego that was instilled in them from a propaganda machine with great brainwashing program.
This is all so crazy, and some of these posts are so absolutely disturbing. How can any of you be so insulting and disrespectful of the Marines, a vital element of our great nation’s military establishment? Everyone knows the Navy established the Marine Corps and posted the Marines aboard ships so that the sailors would have someone to dance with, and for over 200 years those Marines have ALWAYS proven such FAITHFUL dance partners and door holders for our brave sailors.
Hoo-rah, why hello sailor…
The author of this article is misstating the facts and deliberately twisting the truth. If you want the truth Read the following Books:
THIS KIND OF WAR – Author is Col. T.R. Fehrenbach, USA Retired. Forwards are from the following: Gen. Gordon Sullivan, USA (Ret.), former army chief of staff. Gen. Colin L. Powell, USA (Ret.)
THE KOREAN WAR – Author is Max Hastings, a British author and historian from London.
MIRACLE AT BELLAU WOOD / The Birth of the Modern U.S. Marine Corps – Author is Alan Axelrod PhD from the University of Iowa.
There are many other misstatements in this authors article concerning the Revolutionary War, Civil war, WW1 etc. But, the list of books would be to long for me to list. So I am going to leave off here as my point has been made about the credibility of the person that authored this article.
Last but not least. I have access to the Chinese historical documents. This is what the say about the Marine Corps: The Chinese Peoples Volunteer Force (CPVF) was particularly impressed by the First Marine Division on the eastern front and ranked it as the best among the American units.
According to one account, “Attacking the divided and surrounded enemy forces turned out to be extremely difficult. According to the experience of the CPVF, the 1st Marine Division was indeed the toughest fighting unit among the American forces.”
This is what was said about Task Force Faith: “The Ninth Army Group
scored a major victory when it wiped out an entire regiment of the U.S. military (the Thirty-second Regiment of the Seventh Division)” and that they the Chinese suffered from the Korean winter.
The Chinese historical documents also indicate that the U.S army abandoned equipment and weapons as well as leaving their wounded and dead behind. The books I listed above on the Korean war have detailed accounts taken from U.S. army survivors that tell of their experiences. If I recall correctly…The Korean War by Max Hastings has the majority of the accounts of the army throwing away their weapons and equipment, and running away.
Quoting Max Hastings is akin to quoting Howard Zinn. “If I recall correctly, ” Max Hastings still blames the Australians for Eight British Army’s early problems in North Africa, the Canadians for 21st Army Group’s failures at Falaise, SHAEF for Second British Army’s failures in the Netherlands, and credits Montgomery for winning the Battle of the Bulge. Oh, and he continues to argue the Battle of Britain was a decisive battle of World War II. Operation Sea Lion was a fallacy. Nazi Germany had no navy, the Germans were not coming across the Channel, and never seriously threatened England.
Here’s a tip, because you sound like a half-assed, pop historian: Never trust a British historian. They are notoriously biased.
And you exposed yourself as a fraud in any case. I seriously doubt you speak Mandarin, and unless you do, don’t quote Chinese documents. If you read anything remotely associated with Chinese documents, which I doubt, you only read someone’s interpretation of them.
Here’s another tip for you, because you sound like a half-assed pop historian: Never rely on someone elses interpretation of a primary historical source.
Speaking Mandarin would not help in reading Chinese documents of the era. Mandarin speakers in Mainland China learn to read and write in simplified characters while the period documents would have been traditional character sets used by Cantonese Chinese speakers in Hong Kong and Mandarin Chinese speakers in Taiwan.
“Never rely on someone elses interpretation of a primary historical source.” yet you actually did this exact thing. You do not work for DoD and if you did how did you get access to CPVF docs translated? If you got a security clearance and had such access you would not be on this board spouting you have proofs of this. Nice try jarhead, your propaganda doesnt work. Keep eating them crayons.
fake news. you do not have access the CPVF documents. your list a books means nothing. jarhead propaganda. keep being a dick rider of the cult. last but not least, stay off the crayons, it is not good for your grey matter.
Reply to Finnean: I did not quote MAX Hastings. I merely suggested that people read the book. Max Hastings interviewed the U.S. Army soldiers involved in the Korean war and their verbatim accounts are in his book. Also, there are accounts of a reporter that witnessed U.S.army soldiers throwing away their weapons and running away as well as foreign military observers that witnessed the same thing. What excuse are you going to make about Col. T.R. Fehrenbach, U.S. Army (RET)?
I work for the DoD. Much of the information contained in the Chinese historical information has been translated into English and will eventually be published in a book.
Your rant indicates that you are not well educated. You do not even know a quote from a statement. As well as other aspects of your reply.
Additionally, I am not familiar with Max Hastings other works, but the Korean War by Max Hastings is well written, well researched and well documented with his sources of information.
I did not quote MAX Hastings. I merely suggested that people read the book. Max Hastings interviewed the U.S. Army soldiers involved in the Korean war and their verbatim accounts are in his book. Also, there are accounts of a reporter that witnessed U.S.army soldiers throwing away their weapons and running away as well as foreign military observers that witnessed the same thing. What excuse are you going to make about Col. T.R. Fehrenbach, U.S. Army (RET)?
I work for the DoD. Much of the information contained in the Chinese historical information has been translated into English and will eventually be published in a book.
Your rant indicates that you are not well educated. You do not even know a quote from a statement. As well as other aspects of your reply.
Additionally, I am not familiar with Max Hastings other works, but the Korean War by Max Hastings is well written, well researched and well documented with his sources of information.
I hold a doctorate in 19th Century European history, but that’s beside the point…
All I’m suggesting is be careful putting absolute faith in writers, even quasi historical writers. Stephen Ambrose is a perfect example. He’s a very entertaining writer, but more cheerleader than researcher. Sherrod is another good example. He was at Tarawa and wrote a bestseller telling of the hundreds of Marines gunned down in the surf. Unfortunately, the 2nd Marine Divison’s AAR suggests perhaps 50 Marines at most died on the beach. Sherrod wanted to sell books, so he juiced the story.
And to the best of my knowledge, there were no reporters, or foreign observers, other than the assigned ROK troops, with the 31st RCT at Chosin. If you know of any, you should find there names, because that certainly would be ground-breaking research. Perhaps you’re thinking of the Marine chaplain who accused the Army troops of throwing down there weapons and running away. Or maybe General Smith, or Colonel Puller, both of whom also suggested such behavior. And yes, because I know you’re wondering, that’s the same Colonel Puller who, by his own admission, refused to pick up dead and wounded Army troops into his retreating column. Yes, those would be dead and wounded Americans he refused to assist and recover. But then, it is also the same Colonel Puller who was probably responsible for as many marines deaths as the Japanese on Pelelui.
And so you know, as far as I’ve learned from a Chinese scholar who has studied those recently released documents, they decidedly explose that chaplain, and those senior Marine officers as lying. It will of course never be known, but the release of those documents make me highly suspicious of the Marine Corps’ sudden about face as to their attitude toward the 31st RCT, and their sudden desire to accord the men of that units high honors, and finally award them the P.U.C. last year. Award Marine general Smith publically and strenuously demanded the army unit was not worthy of.
I’m not even well versed on the Korean War, but the episode of Chosin and the controversy surroung it has latelt facinated me. I now intend to learn all there is to learn about the episode, but I can tell you from an historian’s perspective, there is definately something fishy about the story which has persisted for the past 60 years.
The sad part about the Marine is that they celebrates or seem to get some kind of gratification at the Army short-coming/failure and seem to resent or try to downplay Army battle field success. I thought we on the same teams?
That’s sadly a very accurate observation.
You simply don’t see other service members focus so much on Marine miscues.
It’s mildly entertaining, and probably deeply revealing, that despite all these rah rah comments and disparaging insults, little reference is made to Vietnam. for the only time in history, the Army and Marine Corps fought under identical conditions, with virtually identical resources, for an extended
period of time, against the same enemy.
Examination of operations and results in Vietnam gives lie to nearly all the Marine Corps’ claims to organizational and operational superiority. In many instances, it also gives lie to the Marine Corps’ claim on a superiority of courage.
It is generally considered by military historians that the Marine Corps’ performance in Vietnam was nothing short if abysmal. Excluding Hue, where Marines certainly distinguished themselves in valor and adaptive skill, the Marine Corps’ deployment to Vietnam was undoubtedly a regretted mistake.
General Westmoreland certainly considered the Marine Corps nothing more than a headache. Their disputes are well known, and excepting the fact that Westmoreland was in command, and the Marine Corps prove repeatedly insubordinate, is still legitimately
debatable as to who was correct. But Westmoreland’s replacement, hard charging General Creighton Abrams was quickly scathing of the Marine Corps’ “lack of professionalism, training, skill, and dependability.” Abrams’ complaints were seemingly agreed to by the JCF, who surprisingly
allowed him to severely limit Marine Corps presence in the higher levels of MACV. A headache for one commander is an issue. That same headache for two different commanders is a serous problem.
It is no secret the Army carried the fight in Vietnam. No unit in Vietnam saw more combat than the Army’ 1st Cav. That dividion exhibited tremendous levels of individual and institutional courage throughout the war. Disparaging “The Army” as so many of the posts on here so casually do, terribly disgraces the incredible bravery, commitment, and skill of that glorious division’s thousands of dead and wounded, as well as it’s veterans.
The Army’s 173d Airborne Brigade, and 101st Airborne Division, both posted similar records of exposure to combat, casualties, and accomplishments. Disparaging the commitment and courage of those unit’s soldiers is equally repulsive. Even the 1st Infantry Div, 4th Infanty Div, 9th Infantry Div, 24th Infantry Div, all proudly aquifers themselves in Vietnam.
Where those “hooha bitches” that air assaulted into the Ia Drang, took Hamburger Hill, fought at Lang Vei or Nam Dong or a hundred other A camps, ran recon into North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, or served as Tunnel Rats?
Despite the multitude of unique challenges they faced, little can honestly be said to disparage the incredible performance of the Army troops in Vietnam.
Probably no military organization in United States history can match the valor and professionalism of the daily commitment of the United States Army’s helicopter pilots in Vietnam. Especially the Army’s medivac pilots. I would easily rank them in pure courage and daring over marines at Iwo Jima and soldiers at Omaha Beach. Where they “hooha bitches” too?
The author’s claims concerning casualties in Iraq is entirely worthless. Casualties are the forensics of war, and properly applied, will tell you everything about a battle. Unfortunately, casual or reckless application of casualty rates will tell you nothing about a battle.
As this author does, the casual or reckless application of casualty rates is manipulative, and too often a practice used to make one’s point. Ironically, the Marine Corps makes a systemic
and historic practice of manipulating casualty rates for it’s own aggrandizement. As I pointed out in a previous post, the Marine Corps casualties in World War II were actually significantly lower than the Army’s Ground Forces. Lower in numbers, and much lower in percentages. Few people know that salient fact, and that is because of precisely what the author in this case did.
He states the Marine Corps represented 23,000 out of 138,000 U.S. Military in Iraq, and as such, represented 17% of the force, yet suffered 29% of the casualties. As presented, those numbers and percentages are meaningless. I know nothing of the casualties in Iraq, but from my intensive study of World War II casualties, know that you first need to determine the number and percentage of those remaining 115,000 U.S. Military in Iraq that are combat troops. In the raw numbers the author throws around, he is including Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard, as well as the rear area support troops in their entirety.
I don’t know the specific numbers, but I do know that if the author excludes all but Army combat troops, he will most certainly learn the percentages he presented are way off. Given the large contemporary ratio of support troops to combat troops, I suspect he will find the Marine Corps casualties in Iraq are well below 29%. Given those same criteria, I also strongly suspect the Army’s combat troop casualties in Iraq must be a stunningly high percentage.
You say the percentages are meaningless but the very next paragraph you are showing that they are not meaningless. You have not extensively study WW2. Go back to your mothers basement. Your fake news about WW2 casualties is pure utter garbage. Since youve never been in theater so you dont know that even combat support was out doing combat missions, yes MPs where out doing missions. The same statements goes for the jarhead numbers, how many jarheads where actual combat jarheads how many was support? Nice try with your regurgitation of jarhead propaganda.
As a USMC F-4 RIO/NFO Viet Nam Veteran, I can attest from my personal experiences that the Army and USAF have always allowed the USMC to do the tough tasks and take credit for the post war publicity campaign. They know how to fortify their rear guard bases and have some of the best O Clubs and golf facilities (They needed to protect Al Gore, a Senator’s son, or so says CCR, so he could create the Global warming theory and the internet and personally become rich) while we were shutting off the heat in Iwakuni in winter and the USAF Misawa hangers were heated. Seems like nothing matters to some Army/USAF personnel except for the ability to tell a story on who won the post flight debate.
DJO, Top Gun Graduate ACT Instructor
What do you know about combat Obuszewski? You never walked the bush. You spent the war safely at 20,000 feet bombing friendlies.
I don’t know what your rant is in associating the Army with USAF hangers and O clubs and rear area whatevers. The Army had no air force, only helicopters that were hardly in the rear. And those Army helicopter pilots were some of the finest and most courageous human beings I have ever encountered.
I humped the bush in Vietnam for about 3 years, 1 tour running recon, and 2 tours serving on a Hatchet company. All 3 tours were spent with CCN, that’s I Corps, marine country. In all that rime, I never encountered a marine in the bush, or even heard of marines running local patrols. To us, marines were always extremely reluctant to leave the safety of their
perimeter.
I choppered into Lang Vei together with the B Team relief force out of Danang. So no one needs to tell me about the Marine Corps’ senior leadership. People should clearly understand the entire story of Lang Vei, especially marines. Lost amid the Lang Vei-Khe Sahn/Army-Marine controversy is the fact that the Marine Corps command didn’t just abandon the Green Berets at Lang Vei camp, they also abandoned a marine rifle platoon at nearby Lang Vei village. The Marine Corps command at Khe Sahn, I Corps, and Vietnam in general was absolutely disgraceful. And that command’s repeated action, or repeated inaction, was certainly counter to Marine Corps hype and legend.
Marines in I Corps got their intel from us, and acted on it from a secure distance with their big guns and their airplanes. In Vietnam we used to call marines “Sandbag Sallies.”
SFC. JFK Secial Warfare School graduate, MACV Recon School Instructor.
Shut up fly boy faggot moron marine.Typical marine asshole with no facts and BS only. As every well educated person knows It was the Army that created the nation and carried it forth to be the greatest nation on earth!
For the record, I am a Navy vet who had my Army brother severely wounded rescueing pathetic marines who could not complete their mission in An Najaf..
Learn to spell before you start insulting others you pathetic little bitch.
ALL TALK –BACK IT UP ONE DAY—I BEG YOU TO SPEW THAT LYING BULLSHIT IN A MARINES FACE .. FAGGOT ? LOL YOU WANT TO BACK IT UP I WILL MEET YOU ANYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY–IM THINKING GRAND CANYON SO I CAN HEAR YOU SCREAM LIKE A BITCH OVER THE EDGE , TOO BAD YOU WERE MISSED IN THE WOUND . IUTS SCUMBAGS LIKE YOU THAT DEGRADE AMERICA. YOUR A BAG OF DIRTY AIR THAT NEEDS TO BE POPPED OPEN. THE ONLY FAGGOT HERE IS YOU!! YOU GUTLESS WONDER !! US VALOR ” YOU DONT HAVE THE FIRST CLUE OF VALOR” YOUR A MOUTH WITH A TINY HEAD ATTACHED TO IT . OH FOR THE RECORD ALSO –GO SUCK A DICK YOU=PUSSY !! NAVY ? YEAH A NAVY WHAT?? ANCHOR?? LOL SINCE YOUTR SUCH SA TOUGH GUY –GO ON MARINE SITES AND SPEW YOUR BULLSHIT KEEP IN MIND THIS WAS A SITE WHERE aRMY OFFICERS PRAISED MARINES IN ACTION.. WHATS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT–AND THEM?? YOUR WORTHLESS ASS ENEMA BAg ,LOL. YOU TINY SQUID DICK. .
more fake news. nice try jarhead your propaganda and historical distortions are now coming to light. with the advent of the internet, people can actually find the real information not jarhead propaganda. your list of accomplishments after your name pale in comparison to Mr Mahan’s. You where up in the air, he was on the ground pounding. You basically are a cult members, your love for the Corps is an obsession. Other service members love their country, jarheads love the Corps more than their country, facts. Jarheads have proven to be deserters and cowards. They are involved in propaganda and historical distortions.
I cant believe I wasted time reading this article. YAT-YAS
can you say comma splice? over and over and over again? anyone hear of a a copy editor or a punctuation guide?
I think it’s pathetic and sad when anyone insults any branch of our military,especially sad when former service members do it.It just shows that shitheads have served in both the army and marines. I served in both the army and the marines and loved them both
When i was a marine we busted the armys balls and when i was in the army we busted the marines balls but thats all it was there was no real hatred for the other service.
The truth is we need both,we need all the branches of our military, and anyone who insults any branch is dishonoring their service and sacrifice.
Mr. Piraino,
The United States doesn’t have two armies, the United States has two Departments of Defense.
The United States supports an army, an air force, and a navy. It also supports a marine corps with it’s own ground force, its own air force, and now it’s own fleet of ships and boats. No other military branch posseses assets outside it’s own specific sheer of responsibilty.
The army maintains no ships or
air assets. The air force maintains no ground force, and no ships. The navy legitimately maintains an air force for protection of, and a direct offensive extension of it’s fleets. Ironically, the navy is currently creating and maintaining a ground landing force because it can no longer depend on an out of control marine corps grown estranged from it’s mission and it’s responsibilities.
Why is the marine corps allowed to maintain a private air force and a private navy? Given the financial stresses placed upon all the armed forces, it is inexcusable that the marine corps continues to squander precious dollars in maintaining it’s own overgrown and unnecessary fiefdom.
The oft repeated official marine corps claim to an air force is their stated need for ground support assets for their
ground force. If so, the marine corps should be forced to answer one salient question: why do they not own a single A-10? It is, is it not, the greatest ground support aircraft known to man???
The Army still has a substantial amount of fixed wing aircraft, more than the jarheads. The Army does have its own ships. Jarheads do not have their own Navy. The jarheads are subordinate to the Navy. The Air Force does have ground troops. Jarheads no longer have tanks, thank goodness.
USMC8thENG may have just wrote the best, most astute statement on this entire stream. His observations are perfectly perfect, and I for one would like to thank him for his contribution. It is refreshing.
Though perfect, I must contribute one obvious point of information however. The reason dogfaces refer specifically to their units for pride and esprit, rather than to the Army as a whole, as marines commonly do with the Marine Corps, is simply because of size discrepancy and mission.
Comparatively, the Army is massive, the Marine Corps is tiny. The primary reason for that is because many of the administative functions within the Army are assumed for the Marine Corps by the Navy. Unlike the Marine Corps, the Army maintains a medical corps, a finance corps, an intelligence corps, a quartermaster corps, an ordinance corps, a signal corps, a judge advocate
corps, and a corps of engineers, as well as several more unglamorous sections. It’s is, therefor, extremely challenging for the Army’s fighters to feel unit pride and a brotherhood with members of the finance corps, or with members of the quartermaster corps.
Hence, their usual reference to their own particular unit.
jarheads send their own to the other branches for follow on and specialized training. They are incapable of doing this themselves and must rely on the real branches of the military to train their jarheads. They also rely on other branches to get equipment. There is no challenge to feel unit pride if you’re not some support dude. Plenty of combat MOS’s have pride in their unit that is on par with the jarheads cult called the Corps. All jarheads feel they are the same, fresh boots have been brainwashed to think they are better than SOF and specialized units, even if they are support. Sorry aint no support jarhead on par with a combat MOS of any branch, facts.
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This is frankly ridiculous and your article is a spew of nonsense. The intelligent members of the army will tell you how valuable the corps is. The USMC has mobility and versatility that the army could never match. The marines are an essential branch and the army ought to stop acting like their entire service is the 75th rangers.
That goes the same to the jarhead cult. Not all jarheads are MARSOC or Force Recon. I have never heard and intel guys say how valuable the cult is. The jarheads are not a real branch, they are a department. The jarheads do not have mobility without the Navy. Jarheads do not have versatility without the Navy. Do jarheads have Mountains units, negative. Doe jarheads have parachute units, negative. Do jarheads have a bigger SOF units, negative. Do jarheads have armor, negative. Jarheads need everything from the Navy to function. Jarheads need to stop acting like the whole cult is all MARSOC. Real Marines where disbanded. This new set of so called “Marines” are all jarheads who belong to a cult and have engaged in fabricating history. Jarheads are not needed.
OPERATIONS OF THE CONTINENTAL MARINES DURING THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR
On March 3, 1776, the US frigate Alfred set on shore 268 Marines, under the leadership of Captain Nicholas, on New Providence Island in the Bahamas. Within 13, days, the Marine raiding party captured two forts, occupied Nassau town, seized control of the Government house and captured 88 guns, 16,535 shells and numerous other supplies.
On its trip home, the Alfred met the HMS Glasgow, a 20-gun British man-of-war, off Block Island, and in a night battle the ship’s Marine unit experienced its first combat losses, 2nd Lt. Fitzpatrick and six enlisted men. The Glasgow suffered four casualties, all caused by the muskets of the Marines.
Upon his return, Nicholas was advanced to Major, and in December 1776 he and about 300 of his men joined Washington’s army in Pennsylvania just before the second battle of Trenton, in time to escape the trap set by lord Cornwallis’s troops. Soon after they fought alongside army units in a successful strike at the enemy’s flank and rear on 3 January 1777. This was the first instance recorded of Marines joining army units in action; it would happen many times in the Corps history.
In the spring of that year, Washington incorporated some of the Marines into artillery units of his revamped army, (When Washington’s artillery regiment’s enlistments expired following the battle at Princeton, Nicholas’s Marines stayed and took over artillery for the general) while the remainder went back to naval duties. The Marine artillerymen participated in the defense of Fort Mifflin on the Delaware River. From 22 October until 15 November 1777, a force of twelve British ships, along with Hessian artillery batteries, pounded the fort into rubble, yet the stubborn defenders were able to fire back and stop the enemy from relieving their units holding Philadelphia.
On 10 January 1778, a small force of Marines commanded by Captain Willing set sail down the Mississippi aboard an antiquated boat renamed by Willing the Rattletrap, headed for New Orleans. During the next year, the detachment operated in the area of that city, primarily attacking British traders until they returned north to join in actions against hostile Indians.
Some but not all of the subsequent Marine land actions of the war were: participation in a joint army-navy attempt to seize a British fort at Penobscot Bay, Maine (though the action was unsuccessful, the Marines were commended for their ‘forcible assault on the enemy’); in May 1780, a gallant but futile attempt by 200 Marines and sailors to save Charleston, South Carolina, from a superior British force; an amphibious attack by Marines from the frigate South Carolina on the isle of Jersey in the English Channel during the winter of 1780-1781, the last such attack of the war.
The Continental Marines, who honorably and courageously served throughout the American Revolution on board the Lexington, Reprisal, Hornet, and Wasp, as well as numerous smaller craft.
In September of 1781 while lord Cornwallis was capitulating to Washington at Yorktown. The Marines escorted from Boston to Philadelphia a treasure trove of French silver crowns loaned from Louis XVI. The loan enabled the finance minister Robert M. Morris to open the Bank of North America.
Marines figured prominently in American naval actions of the war. They took part in attacks on English ships in European waters of the American ship Reprisal until its loss. In April 1778, a Marine detachment took part in two raids on the soil of Great Britain conducted from the Ranger, commanded by John Paul Jones.
Aboard another command of Jones’s, the Bonhomme Richard, The Marine unit was not American but foreign, composed of 3 Irish Officers and 137 French Marines.
Biographers of Captain Jones say he placed great reliance on Marines, and expressed his admiration for their military discipline. He attempted to persuade the Congress to increase the Continental Marines into a larger body, but without success.
The Continental Marines’ last significant action at sea took place in January 1783 when the Marine detachment aboard the American warship Hague boarded and seized the British ship Baille in the West Indies. The signing of the Treaty of Paris on 11 April 1783 brought the war to an end.
The Navy and Marines carried the fight to the enemy on their own soil and in their territorial waters.
The Marines serving aboard ship during the revolutionary war would climb into the masts of the ship and (function as snipers) fire their muskets at the sailors of the enemy ship concentrating on the enemy officers, helmsmen, and gunners while other Marines would be used to forcibly board enemy ships, as well as to conduct amphibious landings, and raiding parties. When not in action against the enemy they were used by the Captain of the ship to enforce discipline and to guard the brig and Naval installations.
Today, Marine officer caps have a lace cross on top called a quatrefoil. This was retained from the Continental Marine sharpshooters who used this method to identify friend from foe. The Marine sharpshooters that were stationed in the tops of the ships’ masts would be able to identify their people from the enemy so that they would not have any friendly fire incidents.
The Marine Corps mission was ‘any… duty on shore as directed.’ The Marine Corps was to be part of the army or Navy, ‘according to the nature of service in which they shall be employed,’ and, therefore, regulated alternately by either the Articles of War or by Navy Regulations.
MARINE RESCUE OF WOUNDED MEMBERS OF TASK FORCE MACLEAN/FAITH
I feel that it is a dishonor to omit Col. Maclean and call the Task force by Faith only. Both men did an outstanding job keeping their unit together, and the pair deserves recognition. Regrettably, when both of these men were killed the unit was routed and ceased to exist as a fighting unit. They left their dead and wounded behind and escaped to the hills and tried to get to the Marine lines at Haguru. The Chinese killed all the wounded that remained in the back of the trucks. The injured that had the best chance of surviving were the ones that had the foresight to crawl/drag there selves out of the trucks before the Chinese threw grenades into the back of the trucks.
Task Force Maclean/Faith started out with 22 vehicles consisting of ¾ ton, 2 ½
ton, and ¼ ton trucks. When they prepared for the breakout they had 100 wounded men. The next day they had another 85 wounded. Shortly after, 3 trucks were put out of commission. They moved the wounded from those vehicles to the working vehicles and the wounded were piled two deep.
When Task Force Maclean/Faith fell apart. Fifteen trucks were in operating order, and the other four were not serviceable.
Since dusk on December 1, the stragglers from Task Force Maclean/Faith had been drifting into the Marine perimeter from the outlying hills into Hagaru-ri all night.
The first arrivals appeared just as the day was dying. They were stopped and questioned by Maj. Beall (soon to be LtCol) Beall). He made sure of their identity, then escorted them thorough the minefield. Many more had followed, all through the night, they came single, and by twos, threes, and dozens, they had come in, strangely bound by nation and rank – Americans with Americans, South Koreans with South Koreans, and after this, junior officer with junior officer, private with private, noncom joined to noncom. They had been guided to the rear, to warming tents hastily provided for them. Many of them were frostbitten. A few of them had their weapons and equipment. Some of them had no weapons, but had their equipment, and most of them had no weapons or equipment.
On the morning of December 2, Maj. Beall had been told that there were many wounded in a truck convoy halted beside the frozen Reservoir. When he informed Col. Puller he was immediately ordered to attempt a rescue of the survivors. Maj. Beall organized a jeep/truck convoy and drove north to the edge of the ice 2 miles above the perimeter. They came under fire from the Chinese. The Marines stopped. They crawled to the soldiers. They were all wounded, many of them with multiple wounds or broken bones. Two full squadrons of Marine fighters assisted in the rescue they came in so low that they sucked the snow off the ice. They came in at approximately six feet above the surface.
As the last of the wounded were dragged to safety. Maj. Beall made sure they were the last. His final act was to approach the line of trucks parked on the road that ran to the right of the Reservoir. He came to the stalled vehicles (The keys were still in the ignition, and the vehicles were still idling). He slipped from truck to truck, peering inside, calling out. There were no answers. Because, they were all dead.
It was getting dark. Maj. Beall started to retire. The jeeps and gunners leapfrogged rearward, laying down a covering fire. They got back safely-and they had rescued 319 wounded.
This is how Maj. Beall and his Marines ripped Task Force Maclean/Faith’s wounded out of the hands of the enemy and the cold.
Short list of some of the men with Maj. Beall: Maj. Beall’s driver – Pfc. Ralph Milton, Hospital Corpsman- Oscar Biebinger, Cpl. Andrew Contreras of Motor transport, 2ndLt. Robert Hunt, and oddly; a Red Cross field director by the name of LeFevere. Maj. Beall let him stay, and he worked with the Marines until midafternoon of the first day, when he collapsed and had to be dragged from the ice himself.
NOTE: in the following days, while the Marines were blasting their way south from Yudam-ni, a Korean civilian approached Haguru and informed Maj. Beall that he and some of his neighbors had wounded soldiers hidden in their homes. Maj. Beall and his Marines went and got them, saving another dozen soldiers. This brought the total rescued to 331.
Even if these soldiers were the only survivors, historians would know what happened to the unit by getting their experiences documented, which they did as well as the many survivors that straggled into Hagru-ri.
I can assure that the rescued soldiers were not happy with their fellow soldiers that left them behind to an uncertain fate with the Chinese and the elements.
As soon as Hagru was able to receive aircraft/helicopters Reporters/the press and observers were flying into Hagaru during the day and leaving late in the evening before nightfall. They had no need to speak to the Marines when they had eyewitness to interview.
The Chinese could not know what happened in the perimeter. How would they know that some members of the Task Force faked injuries and tried to get evacuated?
Col. Puller did not lie and he did not leave any wounded behind from any NATO service. He did focus on getting his dead out and he did not take anyone else’s dead. Gen. Smith did not lie. Here is what an Army historian said about Gen. Smith.
Colonel George A. Rasala, USA-Ret., Chosin Historian
“Those individuals who were deprived of its recognition are justified in feeling forgotten and bitter, but their anger should not be focused on General Smith. He as a fair and compassionate leader who went out of his way to avoid controversy, and when he dealt with other services he was respectful, fair, and truthful. That is a matter of record.” The PUC problem has as its background the conflict between Smith and Almond. Smith was an educated officer who apparently spent a lot of time thinking and writing in his diary and later his aide-memoire. Did he wash his hands with the Sporrer incident by leaving the problem with the Navy? In Smith’s “Log” of 4 April 1951 we read “Colonel Martin, the assistant IG of GHQ [FEC] was here to take testimony regarding the allegations contained in the Sporrer letter. I talked to Martin a good bit off the record. I pointed out to him that I could not see why I should be used to help prosecute Sporrer; that what he had done was a matter between him and the Navy Department.” Was Smith’s handling of Sporrer incident similar to his handling of the PUC for RCT 31?
Navy chaplain: Lieutenant Commander Otto E. Sporrer had served with the Marines at Chosin Reservoir and been decorated with Silver and bronze Stars for his actions. The courageous Catholic priest had been mortified by the behavior of some soldiers in the aftermath of the Task Force Maclean/Faith debacle; a significant number had feigned wounds to escape Hagare-ri by airlift. The chaplain was even more enraged by use of censorship to cover up Allied failings and by the luxury in which senior army staffs lived in Korea. In mid March, he published his accusations in an unsigned article in a, California magazine. At the end of the month, he went public on television and radio. The army tried to get the Commandant of the Marine Corps to disavow Sporrer’s statements. The Commandant stated that he would make no comments to the press, but would provide any facts solicited by government officials. The army then turned to the 1st Marine Division for help: They wanted General Smith to issue a statement. General Smith thought Sporrer had been wrong to raise the issues in the media, but agreed with much of what the chaplain had said. He refused to issue a press release contradicting the priest. MacArthur’s spokesperson then approached Col. Puller and received gruffer, but similar reply that the Commandant gave. The Marine Corps leadership elected not to provide any information or make any comments to anyone except to Govt. officials and only to Govt. officials if they officially requested information through proper channels. The Marines knew that the Chaplin told the truth. There were Navy Corpsman, Doctors, and a Navy surgeon that witnessed the events, as well. They also did not speak to the press.
Here is a short list of witnesses’: Navy Captain Eugene R. Herring-Division surgeon. The first person to realize what was happening and the one to inform Gen. Smith. He was also the one to recruit Chaplain Sporrer to assist in screening the casualties.
Navy Lieutenant Commander Chester Lessenden, the 5ths regimental surgeon. He had two painfully frost bitten and frozen feet, and refused to be evacuated.
Air Force Captain Simpson/pilot on the airstrip-evacuating casualties.
A number of other Navy Doctors and Corpsman as well as a Naval officer evacuating casualties.
You tell only half of the story and a very slanted half.
First you use very charged language to characterize task force faith as falling apart. Were the Marines falling apart when they withdrew from the Mayaguez incident and left live Marines on the beach that were later hunted down and executed? There are also examples on Guadalcanal and other battles where Marines were beaten back before they could evacuate their dead. This is not uncommon in close combat especially when you fight highly outnumbered, unsupported, isolated and without any supplies. The much larger Marine regiments at Chosin were never unsupported or isolated from each other.
Task Force Faith was destroyed in detail. ALL it’s BN commanders and higher were killed or wounded as was the case with company commanders and most if not all LT grades. The same sort of casualties were suffered by the NCO corps. Marine units have NEVER suffered the sort of casualties the 31st suffered especially among its leaders. Any unit bereft of commanders and NCOs ceases to function. Nor is your telling of survivors withdrawing across the ice accurate. Many of these groups were mixed or comprised of single individuals contrary to your effort to portray the breakdown along lines of rank.
You skipped the refusal to allow the Tank company assigned to task force Faith to continue its efforts to breakthrough (unsupported by the Marines) and was instead incorporated into the Marine defense. You also skipped the fact that after Task Force Faith was assigned to the Marines the Marines never attempted to make contact as is the doctrinal responsibility of the higher command.
Sporrer’s and Smith’s commentary about Task Force Faith was slanderous and were countered in detail by General Ridgeway’s response to the incident. Neither Sporrer or Smith were present at the final night of Task Force Smith. The Navy saw different and awarded the Presidential Unit Citation to the unit, an award Smith had obstructed despite the fact that if the 31st RCT had not fought for three days in a far more outnumbered, unsupported, isolated and undermanned situation than ANY of the Marine Reg’ts at Chosin the Marines would have never been able to hold to their Supply depot or airfield quite likely putting their ultimate survival at risk.
All you have done is continue to repeat the scandalous lies that have caused so much bad blood between these two services. I suggest you read “East of Chosin” by Appleman the seminal study of the battle on the EAST side of the reservoir vs. the Marine histories that do nothing to explain its conditions and aftermath.
the boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
DECORATED NAVY HERE, U USMC CUNT PUSSY!
I used the same language an Army historian used to describe the event. There are other descriptions that I have seen used such a dissolved, destroyed, ceased to exist as a fighting force, collapsed, annihilated. It all amounts to the same thing.
You cannot compare being beaten back and then moving forward to recover your dead and wounded to what happened to Task Force Maclean/Faith. The Task Force at its end made no attempt to rescue or aid their wounded. They had other options – they could have fought to the death; they could have stayed with the wounded and brokered surrender, but they chose to flee. I used falling apart because that best describes what happened. If the unit did not fall apart; the survivors would have made their way to Hagaru as a unit, with someone leading it, not as individuals, or in groups ranging from two to a dozen people. I did say that some of the survivors were by themselves. I also will concede that a few of the groups were mixed. I did not make myself clear on those points.
Army leadership is why the whole disaster in Korea happened in the first place. Schlieffen wrote. “It is better to surrender a province than to split an army.” Gen. MacArthur chose to split his army. It was bad enough that there was a gap of 80 miles between Eighth army and X Corps. But to make things worse, the farther north that the Eighth army and X Corp marched towards the Yalu; the worse the roads and mountains got. The narrow trails and parallel valleys caused trouble within the regiment’s and battalions; units began to live and travel in virtual isolation, divided by the ever-present hills. The closer they got to the Yalu, the further strung out the units became.
Also, the top army leadership violated a basic military maxim – “Be ready for what the enemy is capable of doing, not what you think he will do.” Marine Gen. Smith adhered to this edict, and the army leadership violated the precept. Which led to the disaster and many lives lost because of poor choices and believing that the Chinese would not enter the war or were not already in the war.
Early on the Marines notified army leadership that the Chinese were in the fight and showed them prisoners and the army blew them off.
On 1 October 1950 Mae Tse – Tung stated publicly: The Chinese people will not tolerate foreign aggression and will not stand aside if the imperialists wantonly invade the territory of their neighbor. Red China had no relations with the U.S. so; on 3 October they used an intermediary to speak to the Chinese. Here, the foreign minister told Panikkar, “If the United States, or United Nations forces cross the 38th parallel, the Chinese People’s Republic will send troops to aid the People’s Republic of Korea. We will not take this action, however if only South Korean troops cross the border.”
Any China hand could tell you that this was not an unreal threat. Orientals are always concerned with saving face. Mao would have lost face if he had backed down after delivering a public statement. He was not about to back down. Why the army leadership did not realize this is a mystery.
It is fortunate for the U.S./NATO that Gen. Smith slowed down the march and made a concerted effort to keep his fighting forces close to each other. Smith also persuaded Almond to give him permission to build an airfield at Hagaru. Almond did not see a necessity for an airfield, but he reluctantly gave Smith Permission. If it were not for him and his Marines the U.S./NATO would have been thrown out of Korea.
Task Force Maclean/Faith was not without supplies or completely unsupported. They were supplied by air with what the needed. They were given priority for Close air support from Marine and Naval air. They had a Marine Tactical Air Control Party that consisted of one Officer and four enlisted men. The officer’s name is Capt. Edward P. Stamford he called in the air strikes and coordinated the airdrops of supplies. His efforts are the reason the Task Force made it as far as it did. The majority of the Chinese casualties were the direct result of the airstrikes/close air support the Marines and navy provided.
Just in one day 40 Marine planes hit the enemy with 225 rockets, 10 500lb bombs, 29 fragmentation bombs, 18 napalm bombs. This is not including the ordnance that the navy fliers dropped on the enemy. Supplies were dropped by Air force combat cargo command.
Marine units have suffered these kinds of casualties. During its history, there have been E3’s leading squads, E5’s leading platoons, E7’s leading Companies. Hell in Korea there was an E4 that was the Company commander leading what remained of his company on the fight south. They were not officially recognized as the unit leaders (except in their Fitness reports/Evaluations), and they were replaced as soon as possible with an officer. The only Marine I am aware of that was publically/officially recognized and received a medal for his actions was from Vietnam.
You say that any unit bereft of its commanders and NCO’s ceases to function. I say that applies to army units, not Marines units. Read the below news article.
Former Marine Earns Silver Star
Jun 12, 2013
TUSCALOOSA, Ala. — What do you do when your platoon commander is killed?
One Marine knows the answer — take charge.
Sergeant Gary L. Hill, who completed his service in 1969, received the nation’s third-highest award for doing just that during a ceremony at the Tuscaloosa Veteran’s Affairs Medical Center here June 7, 2013.
Retired Gen. Charles C. Krulak, former Commandant of the Marine Corps, presented Hill with the Silver Star Medal for his leadership as a junior Marine during the Vietnam War.
“I only did what I had to do to stay alive, and that’s keep moving,” Hill said. “The Marine Corps raises everybody to be a leader if they need to be. If you’re the last man standing you’re the leader anyhow.”
Retired Maj. James M. Burke coordinated the arrival of Gen. Krulak and a Marine color guard from the Anti-Terrorism Battalion in nearby Bessemer.
“That’s a hell of an award for a lance corporal,” Burke said. “I wanted to do what I could to make sure that he received the recognition in the professional manner that he deserves. I have great respect for enlisted Marines that receive high honors because there are so many that never get recognized.”
Hill was almost one of those Marines until one day at church when a family friend, Jeff Brown, heard Hill’s story. Brown knew he needed to be recognized. So Brown made contact with retired Vietnam veteran Maj. Gen John Admire to make sure Hill received due credit.
Admire has been working for 40 years to recognize his Marines who served during Vietnam and Hill was no exception. Admire worked tirelessly on substantiating records until Hill was approved for the Silver Star Medal for his actions while Hill served with 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment.
‘we call it bringing Gary out of the jungle said former Marine Bill Lightkep, Hill’s brother-in-law. “To get that award… is really about closure… for what really happened.”
According to the citation, Hill’s platoon commander was killed just after they were directed to assault Hill 881-South in Khe Sanh. The Marines were in need of a leader. Hill answered the call of duty.
He rallied and led his fire team to protect their dangerously exposed right flank.
Between Hill and his other Marines, they had three rifles; however, none of the rifles were fully operational at once. The weapons kept jamming.
So Hill and the troops had to set up an assembly line to fix and shoot the rifles. Hill said, when the rifle reached him from the other repair stations he would be ready to shoot the weapon.
However, the NVA fighters were close.
Hill took matters into his own hands when there was no time to go through that process. He then used his M-16 rifle as a weapon of opportunity.
“I hit one in the head with an M-16… like I was swinging a golf club at his head,” Hill said. “It knocked him kind of woozy. The only thing about that battle is I would have rather had my M-14. It’s much heavier… If I hit him with that… his head would have been crushed.”
Hill bounded to an enemy trench line and single-handedly killed three North Vietnamese Army soldiers. Hill then ordered his fire team to provide suppressive fires as he maneuvered to locate an NVA sniper. Once the sniper was exposed, Hill and his team killed the sniper.
When the battle cooled down, he and other Marine began to care for the wounded.
Hill’s actions consequently saved the lives of eight Marines.
Hill, his Marines, and a corpsman have been there for each other ever since. His friend and former Marine Sgt. Tommy Wheeler said the ceremony was no different.
“This is what we do for each other,” said Wheeler, who was also awarded a Silver Star for actions in Vietnam that day. “Plus the three of us were together.
This isn’t our first merry-go-round.”
Judy, Hill’s wife of 45 years, can see a noticeable change in her husband’s behavior after the award. Since he returned from Vietnam, Hill has suffered from the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder caused by the intense fighting in the jungles of Vietnam.
For Hill, the Silver Star ceremony signified the end of a chapter in his life. Twenty-seven were killed, and 54 were wounded. He said now he is sure his fallen comrades can rest in peace.
“It’s one of the happiest days I’ve had since before the Marine Corps because it puts to bed 881,” Hill said. “I’ve had a lot of problems since the day. I’m just thrilled that I can have somebody like General Krulak to present the award.”
You claim that the Marine units were never unsupported or isolated from each other. That is not accurate. The Marines were surrounded at Yudam-ni, Taktong Pass/Fox hill, Hagaru-ri, Koto-ri, Chinhung-ni etc. The army and Marines were surrounded at the same time.
Here is an example of a Marine unit that was much smaller than Task Force Maclean/Faith: Fox Company of the 7th Marines (holding Taktong Pass/Fox hill) had been fighting off nightly attacks at the pass since the onset of the Chinese offensive. Attempts by the remainder of the regiment to reach them from Yudam-ni had failed. The only assistance outside units could provide was fire support and delivery of supplies by airdrop (the same support that Task Force Maclean/Faith received ( allthough everything was buy air.). Capt. Barber’s men held, despite suffering over 50% casualties.
The Marines at Yudam-ni had hundreds of non-ambulatory casualties and were cut off from any means of resupply save airdrop.
So, the Marines were in the same predicament as the Task Force.
The Mayaguez incident: No the Marines were not falling apart; they left as a unit. They did not leave as individuals or in groups all fending for themselves.
The events that led to this fiasco were an unmitigated disaster. Air force commanders not familiar with Marine assault tactics ordered air force helicopters onto the island without prior aerial surveillance, intelligence gathering, or air strikes. Untrained in vertical – assault operations, the air force choppers carrying Marines met fierce ground fire, and two choppers went down in flames killing all aboard. The other 200 Marines found themselves isolated in enemy territory without support.
Marine reinforcements arrived much later and helped secure and hold a landing zone for extraction under fire. 41 Marines were wounded, and 11 were killed; nervous air force pilots that did not wait; carelessly left 3 others behind and refused to return to rescue them for fear of exposer to ground fire.
Ad hoc “joint” operations never go well. We should never do them as they almost always fail.
I did not mention the Tank Company because it was not part of the message I was trying to communicate. But, since you bring it up, this is what the true historical facts are: An army relieving force was sent out from Hagru. But the Chinese had hurled it back with heavy casualties and the loss of two tanks.
Task Force Maclean/Faith was assigned to the Marines after the army had it in position 12.5 miles north of Haguru. I can only speculate as to why contact was not made, so I am only going to say this – It would not have made a difference. The dye was already cast, and nothing was going to change it. I also believe that if Gen. Smith had them from the start, with no orders to the contrary from the army he would have kept RCT-31 at Hagru or put the unit with the Marines at Fox Hill/Taktong Pass. That would make more sense than having them where they were. Marine air could have been used to help protect Hagru and Fox Hill.
Once again Smith never made any commentary about the Task Force. Army historians have noted that. What are slanderous are people continuing to make that assertion.
It is obvious that neither Sporrer nor Smith were with the Task Force. So, why even speak about it. Sporrer was in the hospital tents, and he was present for the evacuation of the wounded from Hagaru. He did administer to their needs and spoke with casualties. He did listen to their accounts of what happened to them. He did provide spiritual comfort for them. The Head surgeon recruited him to help screen the casualties to make sure that only the wounded that needed to be evacuated were evacuated and that others did not get evacuated when they didn’t rate it. The Doctors and the other witness are the only ones that know what happened. The Joint Chiefs assigned Gen. MacArthur to initiate an investigation. That was insane because he was the one trying to cover it up. They should have tasked an independent source to conduct the investigation. The main clue that Sporrer was telling the truth is that the army did not prosecute him. That is what the army wanted to do initially. They were hell bent to charge him, and in the end they just let it drop.
The Chinese moved at will across the battle space. Their historical documents attest to this fact. They moved a division from Yudam–ni to Hagru to bolster the units that had Hagaru surrounded for an attack. When they were not successful at Hagaru, they moved it back to Yudam-ni that was still surrounded. This is one example of many.
31st RCT did not help Hagaru. The Chinese could have put as many troops as they wanted at Hagaru or at any place they chose any time they wanted. It is a circular argument if Communist forces were not at Yudam-ni the Task Force would have been destroyed the first day, or if enemy forces were not at Koto-ri; Hagru would have been destroyed, etc. etc. etc. You can what if it to death.
You say if RCT 31 had not fought for three days the Marines would not have been able to hold their supply depot. I disagree. If you’re thinking that Hagru was not attacked during that time period your wrong, the Communist attacked Hagru on the night of 28 November in force. They made it all the way to where the glare of electric bulbs that lighted the work of the engineers that were working on the airfield. The engineers heard the clanging of bullets on the side of their tractors, and they leaped to the ground and picked up their rifles and routed the Chinese in a counter attack. After the fight, they re-slung their weapons and went back to work.
The first nights battle at Hagaru had been costly. About 200 dead and 500 wounded. 0n 30 November the Marines attacked East hill at Hagaru. And won back what was lost the night before. Reinforcements were sent to Hagaru from Koto-ri. Approximately half of the re-enforcements made it. Because the Chinese had Koto-ri surrounded and had several roadblocks along the way.
Let’s do a short timeline:
The Marines were attacked and surrounded the same day that RCT-31 was first attacked. 27 November 1950. The Marines also started their breakout on 1 Dec 1950.
25 Nov. It was obvious that the Chinese had entered the fight in large numbers. When the Chinese entered the war, the entire UN line of five Army and eight ROK divisions collapsed, with the exception of the Marine division (The 1st Marine Division was the only U.S. unit to survive the Chinese attack intact).
Eighth army on the left was collapsing and in a headlong rush to the rear. A gap of eighty miles lay between them and the Marines on the right.
27 Nov. Marines still were ordered to attack past Yudam-ni. In the afternoon, the Marines encounter Chinese troops dug in on ridges and slopes above the road from Hagaru to Yudam-ni. Casualties began to pile up in the valley. Capt. Barber ordered to take his Fox Company to Taktong Pass.
27 Nov. At dark, under orders from Gen. Sung’s division leaders, the men of the Chines 9th army group silently moved into position and surrounded the Marine positions at Yudam-ni and Fox hill/Taktong Pass. He cut the road by placing multiple roadblocks between Yudam-ni and Taktong Pass, and between Taktong pass and Hagaru, and between Hagaru and Koto-ri. The Chinese attack Yudam-ni, and Fox hill some time after 9PM. The fighting ended up being hand-to-hand combat.
28 Nov. Attacks continue on Hagaru and Fox hill. Chinese now also attack Hagaru and Koto-ri as well. Chinhung-ni was still in Marine hands though it was cut of from Koto-ri.
1 Dec. Task Force Maclean/Faith ceased to exist as a fighting unit.
1 Dec. The last men of the 8th army to survive the gauntlet and come through the pass; arrived within the safety of British lines on the morning of 1 December and by 2 December the 8th army had lost all contact with the Chinese.
Eighth Army was decisively defeated at the Battle of the Chongchon River and forced to retreat all the way back to South Korea. The defeat of the U.S. Eighth Army resulted in the longest retreat of any American military unit in history
1 Dec. The Marines at Yudam –ni start their breakout it takes two days before they start south because they had to take two hills that the Chinese held and join up with the Marines at Taktong Pass.
So, with the 8th army out of the fight and Task Force Maclean/Faith out of the fight where do you think the majority of all those Chinese survivors were shifted to? They attacked the Marines. And the Marines still managed to get to safety in tact with their equipment, wounded, and dead.
The author of this site has created and perpetuates problems between the services by the very title – “Never faithful.” If you want to have a civil discussion you should not start it out by trashing another service. Also, the author does not have a full and complete history. If you look at what he has in his supposed essay he merely copied and pasted portions of Wikipedia articles, anybody with an education knows that Wikipedia is not totally accurate. There are many errors or deliberate falsehoods. So, you need to be very careful with what you get from Wikipedia and other sites on the Internet. There are many trolls out there spreading false information. There are also many gullible people sucking the false information up without questioning it and spewing it back out as if it is a fact.
How would army members/former members like it if someone did the same? Something like – ‘Always running away and leaving they’re wounded.’
Lets talk about the Eighth army: My source is from the army. The Eighth army did not lose all their officers and NCO’s. Yet they had serious issues.
The U.S. army 2nd division (8th army rear guard) was brought to Battle the day after Thanksgiving, 1950.
These are comments from Captain Frank E. Munoz commanding George Company, 9th infantry. Munoz gathered five or six of his men. “Stay here! Fire on the Chinks! We’ll cover the others; then they’ll cover us —” There were two more tanks, and most of Fox Company, still behind. Now, under the covering fire, Munoz’s small party threw against the hills, the others streamed through. But they did not stop to cover Munoz’s withdrawal; — they kept on going.
The weirdest experience of Capt. Munoz’s career took place – suddenly, the battleground was lighted with a brilliant white light. The low ground was swarming with thousands of enemy. He saw some of Easy’s people start to run from their positions. The two tanks supporting Munoz had seen the Chinese sea, too. Now, their engines roaring, they took off to the rear.
Sgt. Schlicter, a medic assigned to the 2nd division, 9th infantry. Major Bert N. Coers, the C.O.; told the men: “Were withdrawing south. This is not a retreat, but an organized withdrawal.” In the confusion that was overwhelming the division on 30 Nov, Schlicter figured the medics were lucky to be told anything. At dusk on 30 November, the convoy was still stopped on the road miles north of the pass. Sitting in a truck with…. he heard “What’s the matter? Why don’t we move out? Panic began to sprout.
Then an officer ran along the stalled line of trucks, shouting: “It’s every man for himself! We’re trapped! Get out any way you can!” Men got down from the trucks, and began to run for the circling hills – and the officers and sergeants followed. Here, thought Sergeant Schlicter later, we committed a grievous error. Here, we broke faith with our fellow soldiers and fellowmen. There were 180 wounded men in the trucks, and no one said anything to these men as they were abandoned. They went in small groups. There was no unity. The C.O. was unable or unwilling to do anything. Some of the men were now wounded from Chinese fire, and many had thrown their weapons away.
I could list many additional incidents quoted from army soldiers. But hopefully you get my point. So, I will move on.
The army sent its division down Sunch’on road, not disposed for battle but organized only for a motor march, Gen. Keiser, unknowingly, was sending it unprepared into the gauntlet. (This was a huge blunder. (In war, you should always prepare for the worst).
His people had no idea that the roadblock was not clear at the time they mounted their units up for a motor march. Not for combat.
The command lost all tactical integrity. Companies were split apart, as they loaded on many separate vehicles; even squads and platoons split up as the men crowded aboard whatever truck or jeep had room.
The fighting elements of the division were fractionalized, and scattered over dozens of vehicles and once the vehicles were on the narrow road, there could be no change of plan. Officers, even Gen. Keiser, could no longer influence more than a few men close to them, and they like Keiser, would come out not leading a rearguard action but as individuals speeding for their lives.
As the Division moved down Sunch’on road, they encountered damaged vehicles. When the tanks finally pushed wrecked vehicles out of the road, after each accordion action standstill, the armor and trucks, spurred by the flailing steel beating against them, often roared ahead without pausing to reload their passengers.
The last men of the division to come through the gauntlet and make it through the pass, arriving within the British lines on the morning of 1 December were the lucky ones. Apart from the dead, there were still men more unfortunate than these. All of the second Division did not make it out.
You had a very long rambling response. E.G. discussing Korea’s strategy and other battles than Chosin. My response is specific as to TF Faith. You simply have not studied the battle or are relying on only Marine history books or wiki (a common problem when discussing the lessons of war with Marines).
As to TF Faith, no Marine Reg’ts fought separated from supporting regiments for more than a day let alone three. No Marine unit was isolated for three days. No Marine unit lost all its key leaders to the degree that TF Faith did. No Marine reg’t fought missing one of its infantry BNs and with almost 30% less manpower (Army squads are smaller and TF Faith consisted of TWO Infantry BN’s which fought 2+ Chinese divisions!). No Marine Reg’t faced over two Chinese divisions in a three day period defending its whole perimeter. No single Marine REGIMENT has suffered over 50% casualties and had to conduct its own unassisted breakout. No single Marine Reg’t fought alone without Marine Reg’ts on its flanks assisting or drawing off enemy combat power. You can quote squads, platoons and companies but not over three days of sustained combat conducting a withdrawl under pressure. It’s a different animal when you are holding a line (e.g. Khe Sanh) and higher can continue to command vs. trying to fight your way out of a surrounded position alone. You clearly demonstrate you are ignorant about the whole battle of a single understrength Army Regiment on the other side of the reservoir.
There are situations were a surrender cannot be brokered. In fact part of the creed is to fight until one no longer has the means to resist to include escaping and evading. There were no options the night TF Faith was destroyed in detail. To say there were other options demonstrates you simply don’t know the situation that evening as the mile long convoy, isolated, unsupported, bereft of leaders from Regiment to most platoons, no communication, having fought through multiple roadblocks, forded rivers without engineer support, encumbered by casualties equal to or greater than its fighting strength without the means to care or evacuate them, was finally overwhelmed by superior numbers at the last roadblock. This is much different than a company in a static position in the defense or even the later Marine withdrawl from Chosin.
TF Faith was never supplied with the critical ammo it needed which caused the abandoning of multiple 40mm Dusters which were exceptionally effective in thwarting Chinese attacks. Multiple artillery pieces were also abandoned for lack of ammo and prime movers because they had to be committed to move the wounded. I can remember no successful breakout operation in history (as opposed to a static defense) which was adequately supplied by air.
BTW, there are significant examples of isolated soldiers fighting and winning. I suggest you study the Battle of the Bulge after you brush up with the battle, east of Chosin.
As for Yandom ni, the Marines had two full strength regiments there and faced less Chinese. Hagaru ri would never have held if the two and half Chinese divisions decimated by TF Faith had arrived unmolested. TF Faith faced more Chinese, ALONE, with two smaller Army Infantry battalions.
The author has some issues as I’ve stated in a couple of my posts but you are as guilty if not more so of the same in your slanted and uninformed depiction of the battle east of Chosin. If you were familiar with it as you are the Marine developments you might be less likely to be so offensive.
jarhead propaganda created by jarheads or jarhead dick riders. More historical distortion for more embellishment for the cult called Corps. Real Marines where disbanded. These fake “Marines” are not the same ones we initialed had. They fabricated devil dogs, fabricated blood stripes, fabricated its birthday. Jarheads have been proven in Korea to be deserters, jarheads have proven to be cowards in Vietnam. Jarheads have fabricated their historical worth in the Pacific. Jarheads have proven to be indiscriminate killers in Iraq and Afghanistan, killing countless civilians which caused casualties for all the branches. Jarheads are not needed and in no way special or elite. Sorry but some support jarhead is not better than any combat troops from any of the branches. Jarheads are not all Force Recon or MARSOC.
Having served. I can honestly say both the US. Army and USMC Both embelish “the truth”. I considered myself an American Rifleman. And no one on earth wanted or wants to make me mad.. Titles aside. Marines and Soldiers both dig “Ranger graves” Let the Gen. Officers deal with the politics and story telling. As far as I’m concerned, a Marine Pvt. or an Army Pvt. is my brother. -SSG. US Army (Ret.)
I’ll make you mad….no one functions well losing control of their emotions
the boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
DECORATED NAVY HERE, U USMC CUNT PUSSY!
It sickens me to see such a place for others to spew their hate and discontent for my beloved Corps, or the Army. All I know is when I see our Veterans cemetery’s all I can think of is how they are all such heroes to have placed their lives on the altar of freedom for all of us and we should be ashamed of ourselves for spewing this vomit of hate on both of our branches of service.
Eric Johnson USMC 1980-87
don’t disagree with your comment, but you might want to tell your fellow Jarhead that when they trash the Army.
I hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Here is my response….
Leadership plays a huge part in the success or failure of a unit or military organization. So you really cannot compare RCT-31 with Marine units they way you are attempting to do. Army leadership failed RCT-31, and if it were not for Gen. Smith the Marine units would have been in a similar situation as RCT-31 or the Eighth army. As far as surrendering goes– when you read further you will see how Marines take care of their wounded/men.
I do not need to examine the Battle of the Bulge; I am already familiar with it. I have been soaking up Military history since I first learned to read. Military history is my passion. In my senior year of High school, we had a choice of taking World history or some other history class or I could take the new course that they were piloting on Military history. I choose military history. I also took military history classes in college.
I am familiar with military history from the ancient times to the present.
Once again all UN forces were simultaneously surrounded and attacked.
If you are surrounded and fighting to survive how can you protect anyone’s flank?
If the units that you were assigned to protect the flanks of are enveloped/surrounded then once again you failed to protect their flank.
I have seen comments that RCT-31 protected Hagaru-ri’s right flank. That is absurd; RCT-31 was never at any time on Hagaru’s right. RCT-31 was always north of Hagaru.
Another ignorant comment is that RCT-31 protected the Marines from attack for four days.
The Marines were enveloped, and they were attacked every day.
The Chinese moved units around the battlefield at will. They executed their plan of attack with precision. If the Chinese wanted they could have just as easily altered there plan and kept RCT-31 pinned down where they were located and sent a stronger force to Hagaru without too much trouble. But they didn’t, they stuck to their plan and took RCT-31 out of the fight at exactly the location they had planned to finish them off. Which was at the blown bridge near Hudong-ni.
The terrain alone made it extremely difficult to protect anyone’s flank. The Chosen Reservoir was between Yudam-ni on the west side and Sinhung-ni on the east where RCT-31 was located, and there was rugged mountain country in between with mountain elevations ranging from 4,593 feet to 3,937 feet. The same can be said for Hagaru-ri, which was south of where RCT-31 was located when attacked by the Chinese. It had peaks that were around 3,937 feet high between RCT-31 and Hagaru-ri.
Nov 27: Elements of the 31st RCT, commanded by Col. Alan MacLean arrived east of the reservoir. The 31st was hastily thrown together. It included the 1st battalion of the 32nd infantry, 3rd Battalion of the 31st infantry, 57th field artillery Battalion and the 31st Tank Company. The 31st infantry Battalion never made it to the reservoir. MacLean was four miles south of Faith in his own perimeter. Faith was occupying the area left by the Marines north of MacLean.
Again army forces divided themselves with an overwhelming enemy force present even though the Marines had told Lt.Col. Faith, those Chinese captives, had confirmed the presence of three Chinese divisions in the area.
Then when MacLean and Faith dug in both leaders had their companies in a perimeter-facing north, with the right flank bent south facing the mountains on the east. They should have set up a 360 defense as the Marines always did.
The Chinese had assaulted MacLean’s perimeter as well and were between Faith in the north and Maclean, in the south.
On the afternoon of 28 November, Gen. Almond visited by helicopter for an inspection of the lines and to hand out some medals. He spoke to the group before he left basically telling them not to let a bunch of Chinese laundrymen stop you and that they were still attacking. There is no record of Almonds and Faith’s conversation at the jeep other than the one related by Faiths operation officer when he asked Faith what the general said. Faith replied, ”You heard him,” muttered Faith; “remnants fleeing north.” I hope Faith had the intestinal fortitude to tell Almond that the Chinese were in the war in strength since his unit was heavily engaged with the enemy the night before.
Gen. Almond was flying to Tokyo on the night of the 28th. MacArthur gave him orders to discontinue the attack and withdraw and consolidate his forces.
At approximately 0300 on the 29th orders were given to Faith to join MacLean at his position 4 miles south. When the withdrawal order reached the companies the plan for withdrawing the battalion by segments collapsed as men panicked and quickly broke contact with the enemy and assembled on the road. The quick end of firing made it obvious that the soldiers were leaving, and the Chinese pounced on them.
Thus, to sum things up what was going on in the minds of the army leadership, and why did they continue to make poor decisions with regard to the Chinese and RCT-31?
On November 25th the Chinese had revealed that they were coming in-and coming in, in force with enormous numbers of troops. The Eighth army on the left was getting decimated, and there was a gap of eighty miles between them and the Marines on the right. MacArthur and every Marine leader were aware of this fact. So, I have to infer that Almond, MacLean and Faith should have known, as well.
On November 27th they all should have been cognizant that the Chinese were in force in the east as well since all units were attacked in force. MacArthur together with Almond should have anticipated that on the 25th.
Consequently, I do not comprehend why MacArthur and Almond put RCT-31 in such a precarious situation. RCT-31 could have been better utilized if they were kept at Hagaru-ri or Taktong Pass.
I do not understand why Almond had to fly to Tokyo to receive orders to consolidate. Evidently he did not have the authority to make reasonable decisions on his own.
I do not understand why MacLean and Faith did not keep the entire unit together in the first place.
I do not know why Almond who supposedly inspected the lines did not remedy the problems and order MacLean to consolidate his forces right then.
I do not understand why they did not set-up a 360 defense. It was common knowledge that the Chinese always attempt to get in the rear of all units they attack.
I have no proof, however I believe Faith did inform Almond that they were in a bad situation and Almond did not do anything about it. After Almond had left, Faith ripped his Silver Star off his jacket and threw it away.
I do not comprehend why it took from November 25 to November 29 to realize that UN forces in Korea were in severe trouble. If the decision was made sooner RCT-31 could have survived.
The individual soldiers of RCT-31 did a good job under the conditions that they were put in by their leadership. Their leadership did not do them any favors and made their jobs and their survival more difficult than it needed to be.
Col. Puller’s men held the MSR. His 1st Battalion held Chinhung-ni at the base of Funchilon pass, and the 2nd Battalion was with Puller at Koto-ri. 11 miles up the road; 3rd Battalion was at Hagaru-ri at the base of the reservoir.
Nov 27: Marines arrived at Yudam-ni after dark and the Chinese were already in position waiting for them. As the Marines were dismounting from the convoy, all hell broke lose. Chinese forces had set a trap and ambushed the Marines when they arrived.
Simultaneously Chinese forces attack Yudam–ni, Taktong Pass, Hagaru, Koto-ri, and Chinhung-ni; the Marine Division was broken/cut into small units separated from each other and outnumbered by at least 7 to 1 (some sources say 10 to 1). The Marine Division was not together at a fixed point. The Marines were spread dangerously thin across the reservoir in a line from north to south. The Chinese plan was as follows: When the Marines reached Yudam-ni, this was to trigger an attack. Three Divisions would strike at Yudam-ni; one from the north and one from the west were to attack the two regiments there, while the third flowed to the south and cut the road to Hagaru. A full division would throw itself against Hagaru, while another division isolated Koto from Chinhung-ni.
The Chinese best chance to destroy the Marine Division was to attack it and separate and isolate the units and to eliminate the isolated units in small bites. The Marines were unable to support each other as they were stretched out and cut into small packets.
The farthest Northern position the Marines held was Yudam-ni, seven miles behind them was Fox Company holding Taktong Pass, and seven miles south of them was a Battalion of Marines at Hagaru.
The first night the Chinese had cut off all UN detachments. The Chinese strategy was to make breaks in the line and then isolate and surround the pockets, which could then be chopped up piece-meal.
Nov 29: Eleven miles south of Hagaru-ri (at Koto-ri) Task Force Drysdale is sent to reinforce Hagaru-ri. 400 Royal and U.S. Marines, as well as some soldiers and 16 tanks, make it through Hell-Fire Valley to re-enforce Hagaru-ri. Task Force Drysdale saved Hagaru. Baker Company of the armie’s 31st regiment and the army’s 377th transportation truck company was also part of Drysdale’s force. They along with some Marines did not make it through. Of the 900 men who had left Koto that morning – about 450 men had been fragmented into quarters. These four fragments were strung out in Hell-Fire Valley and virtually out of ammunition. All four fragments were separated by gaps of from 200 to 400 yards into which groups of Chinese had infiltrated. The enemy had sealed Hell-Fire Valley from front to rear and had the men and 100 vehicles trapped. They were destroyed piece-meal. The 4th fragmented unit turned and fought its way back to Koto-ri. One of the fragmented units the 2nd was totally wiped out. The other two fragmented units handled their situation differently but honorably. The Marine leader of the third fragmented unit decided not to surrender. In the lull that had fallen on Hell-Fire Valley, while the leader of the 1st fragmented unit stalled the Chinese with surrender negotiations, and while the enemy relaxed its vigilance he rounded up his men; collected his wounded, and struck out over the mountains on an exhausting five-hour march to Koto. They all made it back to Koto as a unit.
The Marine leader of the 1st fragmented unit delayed the surrender as long as he could to allow more men to slip out of the perimeter undetected. He did not attempt a break out because he was not going to leave his wounded; he had more wounded then he had able-bodied men. He stayed with his wounded men, and he did not agree to an unconditional surrender. He told the Chinese that he would not surrender and that he would stay and fight unless they agreed to take care of his wounded.
He negotiated medical care for his men, and a promise to return them to the nearest American Command post. The Chinese partially lived up to the deal. (RCT-31 could have done the same).
Due to the heavy enemy attacks, Drysdale was unaware the Chinese had cut off a major portion of the convoy since there had always been gaps during the repeated stops and starts. He assumed the remainder of the column was not far behind.
Nov 30: Fox Company holding Taktong Pass. The pass was important because if they lost the pass the Marines at Yudam-ni would not have been able to get through without massive losses. The pass was critical to their survival. If the Chinese could control the pass it would have made it very difficult to get out. Capt. Barber’s Fox Company, 7th Marines, had been able to hold off two enemy regiments for six days, preventing the Chinese from taking Taktong Pass, and closing the MSR/the route south.
Dec 3: Combined force of Marines from Yudam-ni and Taktong Pass fight their way south. Towards the port of Hungnam; in between lies 71 miles of enemy territory and a series of Marine bases holding out against massive odds to keep open the escape route. From their encirclement at Yudam-ni, the Marines brought out all their wounded-six hundred of them stretcher cases. They brought out all their equipment, with the exception of one quarter-ton truck and four medium howitzers that had slid off the icy road into a chasm. It was nothing less than a fighting perimeter on the march, and there was fighting on every side. From Hagaru-ri to the port was 64 miles. Note: RCT-31 and 8th army were already eliminated from the fight as of Dec 1st and 2nd.
Dec 4: Combined force arrives at Hagaru-ri. 7 days after initial attacks began. Now the Marines had to make it through Hell Fire Valley to the next stop at Koto-ri before they could continue on to the port of Hungnam. They encountered roadblocks about every mile, and heavy enemy fire from the hills.
Dec 7: Marines arrive at Koto-ri. They are now 53 miles from the port.
As the Marines fight their way south, they were moving down the MSR/Road and had the enemy in the hills on both sides of the road as well as nine heavily defended roadblocks and were subject to heavy fire from snipers. The bridges were gone, and the road was mined. There was no cover on the road. So, the Marines had to send several units to attack up both sides of the hills as well as bust through the roadblocks.
This was not a motor march. It was a tactical battle all the way south, against Chinese who held the hills in depth. That had the column encircled and was attacking the rear and all sides as they fought there way south out of the trap.
Dec 11: After 13 days of fighting they make it to the port of Hungnam and safety.
The Marines overcame overwhelming odds, not only in overwhelming numbers of enemy personnel, but, also the freezing cold. They came out even though they were so tired they could hardly stand, even though most of them suffered from raging dysentery, who had frostbitten faces and hands, and who were weak from hunger. Many were wounded multiple times and yet they endured. They came out as Marines; they had retired from the Chosin Reservoir in a column of units, with virtually all their heavy equipment and transport intact, bringing their dead, and wounded while maintaining the cohesion of the division to the end.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
For someone that claims to be a student of military history you get a lot of the basics wrong.
Leadership is important. Keep in mind no Marine Reg’t lost its commander or had one awarded a Medal of Honor. There was no “lack of leadership” in TF Faith except because for that void caused by enemy action unequaled by any Marine Reg’t’s losses in key leaders and overalll casualties.
Numbers matter. Marine Reg’ts are 30% larger at full strength. The 31st RCT was missing one of its three Infantry BN’s. Further time to position and emplace make a difference. The 31st RCT was newly committed and din’t have the luxury of days to establish its position.
The area East of Chosin is North and East of Hagur-ri. Consult a map, it’s on the roight hand side and if it wasn’t there the 2+ divisons (already a greater force ratio than any Marine Reg’t and including tanks) would have fallen on Hagaru-ri. They could not possibly have held and the Marines supplies, airfield and route of withdrawl would have disapperaed and had two mnore divcisions to contend with.
I know of no communication by the Marines to COL MacLean. Who? The Marine company that withdrew before conducting a relief in place? It’s suspect that you imagine Marines could magically communicate with the commander of the 31st RCT before the fight but your inquisitive nature stops there. Why didn’t the Marines maintain contact or more importantly establish contact when they were given tactical control of the 31st RCT (this is basic military doctrine, higher to lower commo responsibility).
BTW there were actually much MUCH more than three divisions in “the area”. Again, the 31st RCT fought 2+ divisions for days and it does make a difference when units even in 360 defense are close enough to defend each other. It robs the enemy of the ability to attack anywhere when they are being fired upon or at threat of attack from the rear from a flank unit. Again, basic military doctrine.
Your assessment that the Chinese could have easily pinned the 31st and moved around it demonstrates a clear ignorance of conditions on the east side of Chosin something not covered very well in Marine history of the battle. This lack of knowledge and continued efforts to disparage a sister service is why original essays like Mr Piriano’s essay necessary. Your utter disrespect of the unit whose destruction ensured a Marine division’s survival at Chosin is the classic hubris some Marines and their ignorant acolytes are famous for.
another dick rider of the cult. all your statements are historical distortions. jarheads would not have survived without Soldiers holding the flank. The jarhead left the Soldiers to die. Jarheads are deserters and cowards. Jarheads love the Corps more than their country, Soldiers love their country more than the Army. Soldiers are not brainwashed in propaganda that they are superior to any living thing on Earth. Jarheads give more waivers out for its recruits than any other branch, this is due to the fact that most jarhead recruits would be disqualified but the cult called the Corps does not care if its boots are felons or have lower intelligence, facts.
Honestly? The difficulty is you think that leadership stops with the officers, and you may grudgingly extend that to the Non-commissioned officers. While the Marine Corps emphasizes to everybody that they are a leader, and even if there are only privates left the senior private must step up and take charge.
The Marines at Yudam-ni and Taktong Pass did not have the luxury of days to establish a position either.
You are the one that needs to consult a real map instead of some drawing out of some book. You will see I am correct. Also, even if it was on the right hand side, it was still 12.5 miles north of Hagaru-ri with rugged terrain in between. Also, you need to look at where RCT-31 was actually located, not the area. They were located a little north of Sinhung-ni which is north of Hagaru.
I never said the Marines communicated with MacLean. I said they communicated with Faith as he was arriving and the Marines were pulling out.
This is a quote from U.S. Army Col. Fehrenbach: “Faith relieved Marine units in the area, and on the 27th he pushed north. The relived Marines informed Faith they had heard that three Chinese divisions were in the area. These regiments and battalions, Marines and army, were spread over many miles of bleak terrain, joined only by a fragile thread, the road. There was no one on their flank to the east, no one to the west.”
Your basic military doctrine would have made all the difference to many of the men of RCT-31 if Faiths and MacLean’s forces were combined instead of separated and if they had set up a 360 defense.
This is just a common sense analysis of the situation. I would say the same thing about any service or unit. If you cannot see that then you are letting your loyalty to your service cloud your judgment, and you are not taking an objective view of the situation.
You are the one that is ignorant of the whole situation. The Chinese did move around RCT-31. How do you think they got between Faith and MacLean, and then surround the whole unit? The Chinese had more than enough troops in the area to keep RCT-31 in position and attack Hagaru with additional forces if they wanted. They could have even pulled additional forces from any of their other units that were surrounding the other Marine positions and sent them against Hagaru without much trouble.
You think telling the truth is disrespecting a sister service or a unit. It is not. I would not even be on this site if was not for the misstatements and outright falsehoods this site puts out. This site disrespects and disparages the Marine Corps by its very title and you have the gall to say I am disrespecting another service. I never started out and never would start out disrespecting anyone like this site does by its very existence.
I am simply responding to the attacks and disrespect that this site initiated by its very title. I have also held back. Because I certainly could post volumes of first hand accounts by army soldiers of units and soldiers that have not performed very well, starting from the army’s inception to Korea.
I do not enjoy spending my time engaged in this BS. It would be great if Marine Corps and Army members would cease fire on each other and stop this crap. The Chinese in their documents indicate that this rivalry between the services is one of our great weaknesses.
The rivalry was friendly at one point, and now it appears to have evolved into hostility, which is not good for this country.
I propose that you and I end this discussion since we are both entrenched in our viewpoints and we are unlikely to move from our positions.
I have ordered Applemen’s book, and am looking forward to seeing what he has to say and will examine his sources.
I also find it somewhat amusing that I have used army sources for the majority of my comments and am still accused of slanting my comments towards the Marine side, or for a lack of knowledge etc.
It’s important to THINK as you read. What sense would it make for the Marines to communicate with ONE BN Cdr and not the regimental commander as to the enemy situation? Have you served in the military? It’s not the way it works.
Do you REALLY think that the Army DOESN’T instill leadership and taking charge all the way through the ranks? (Again, the hubris and ignorance especially from someone who says they are familiar with the Batle of the Bulge)
If the Chinese could have pinned the 31st RCT they would have with the 2+ divisions committed to destroy it. Even outnumbered the 31st was able to break contact from it’s initial positions and move south fighting the Chinese on the way. It takes a lot less troops to pin an enemy than destroy him. Your inability to understand that (and other fundamental points) demonstrates your mastery of military tactics, doctrine and history,
BTW, I have a long record of professional study in the subject. It spans my whole life, over two decades of uniformed service, my course of studies at the military academy and during my master degree course of study. My next to last duty was serving as the head of the history and leadership dep’t at a Command and General Staff College school.
nice try jarhead, keep eating them crayons. you have not shown proof of any Army sources for your statements. You just wrote historical distortions that the cult called the Corps has been doing from every conflict that the US has been in. Embellishing their own supposed accomplishments at the price of dead service members from other branches. Deserters in Korea, cowards in Vietnam. Killed more civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan than all the services combined and this has caused undue deaths for the other services due to their indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. Jarheads are traitors, they have loyalty to only the Corps and not the country. Soldiers love their country more than the Army. Jarheads have more waivers to recruit felons than any other branch. Sorry some felon that had its only chance to get a job was join the cult called the Corps doesnt make this person better or more elite than anyone, this person is a shitbag that had chance to improve oneself but that doesnt make this person superior to any living thing on this Earth because he earned an EGA.
Majorod,
No used talking to egotistic brainwash jar-head, impossible. what he trying to say if the Marine were in the same situation they would have kick ass because they are so bad-ass. which we know it not the case.
On side note i just spoke with a retired Navy Vet, and was kind of surprise the Army are at bottom of the barrel when it come to getting money for research and development, we are behind the Marine who is a sub-branch of the Navy get more funding, of course the Air-Force are at the top.
How is the branch that spill the most blood get the least amount of money?
The Army need to improve it image, better PR. the quiet professional does not work in today world (definitely not with congress). look how the SEALS have made a name for themselves over the Bin-LADIN RAID. People in general, believe it or not does not know what the Army do, i was arguing with this retire Navy guy that the Army were the first the fight but i can’t tell he didn’t believe me.
OMG – You think and army colonel does not know that it is the Regimental commander that they are supposed to speak with. I do think as I read and I verify anything that appears out of the ordinary. You wrongly accuse me of not knowing what took place, and you do not even know the basics of what happened to RCT-31 or why. With all your studies, you should know that it is the responsibility of the reliving Commander to establish continuous liaison with the relieved unit. Col. Maclean at no time attempted to establish contact with the Marines.
Leadership – You are the individual that continuously uses the excuse that all the leaders were wiped out, and that is why they did not attempt to save their wounded left in the trucks. If leadership were fully infused throughout the ranks then why did everyone head for the hills? It would have taken only one person to stay and proffer surrender terms to the Chinese to save many men from death. There were officers, Staff NCOs, and NCOs that survived. Yet, no one took the time or made the effort to look out for the non-ambulatory wounded men in the trucks.
Here is a short list of some of the leaders/survivors: Maj. Jones, Capt. Bigger, Lt. Smith, Lt. Moore, Lt. Barnes, Lt. McCabe, Lt Campbell, Lt. Mortrude, MSgt Craig, SSgt Scott, Cpl. Camoesas, and PFC Finfrock, and many others.
In regard to the Chinese pinning RCT-31/You clearly do not understand how the Chinese fight or apply their strategy and tactics. Your remarks about me–“It takes a lot less troops to pin an enemy than destroy him. Your inability to understand that (and other fundamental points) demonstrates your mastery of military tactics, doctrine and history.” Applies to yourself, not me.
You thinking that RCT-31 forcibly broke contact just shows’ your lack of knowledge of Chinese warfare.
The Chinese always sought to turn the flanks, and to infiltrate, or swarm around a unit hoping to gain the rear and then isolate small unit by a small unit, which could be chopped up piece-meal. They always set up roadblocks to intercept reinforcements from reaching the unit that they were attacking. That is why the Tank Company at Hudong could not come to the aid of the forward elements of RCT-31.
Moreover, the Chinese do not believe in closing all avenues of escape to a trapped enemy. It might make him desperate, and give him the fierceness of a cornered rat. They nearly always show him a little daylight and let their enemy burst hopefully from the hole into a net that they cannot extricate themselves from. The net for RCT-31 was at the bridge at Hundong exactly where the Chinese had planned to finish RCT-31 off.
No shit it takes a lot fewer troops to pin a unit than destroy it, that is obvious, and that was my point. If the Chinese had wanted Hagaru bad enough they could have done it, they were not tied to the road as the UN was and they moved at will at night anywhere they wanted to go. They also could have easily made another composite Division by taking men from their various units around Yudam-ni, Koto, Chinhung-ni, East hill, Funchiolon pass, etc.
And the UN forces would not have realized that there was a decrease of enemy strength in their sector. The Chinese documents indicate that they had moved a Division from Yudam-ni to Hagaru at one time to reinforce the unit that was already there in an attack on Hagaru. And when it was not successful they moved the Division back to Yudam-ni.
The Chinese records indicate that they felt that they had enough men and time to finish the Marines off. The net for the Marines was not at Hagaru it was at Funchilin Pass. Funchilin Pass was a steep mountain peak, marked on the map as hill 1081. The Chinese held it in strength. They had been reinforcing it since they had seized the road between Koto and Chinhung on November 29th. The bridge was still in place; however, Gen. Smith knew that it would be destroyed before they could get there, so he made arrangements to have a bridge ready to be airdropped and engineers ready to install it.
I will endeavor to connect the dots for you regarding RCT-31………
On November 25, the Chinese launched their attack against the Eighth army. Army Gen. Hode’s comment that the Mission of the 7th Division was uncertain pending news from the west indicates that X Corps and 7th Division (RCT-31) were aware of the Chinese entrance into the war in strength.
On 26 November in the morning, Faith arrived east of the Chosin. Since the Marines still occupied the area Faith waited for complete orders, which had been promised to arrive later that day. Around midday, the assistant commander of the 7th division, Brig Gen. Hodes (USA) arrived at Faiths command post with orders for the planned operation as well as to inform Faith that Col. MacLean was to arrive soon to take command. NOTE: Gen Hodes arriving and issuing orders indicate that the Marines did not have tactical control of RCT-31 on 26 November.
In the meantime, other units continued to arrive. This shows army leadership sent RCT-31 to Chosin piece mill (That was a mistake that could have resulted in disaster if the Chinese had attacked). Instead of having them arrive as a consolidated unit. When the artillery units arrived one of the artillery officers considered the artillery to be in a non-tactical bivouac. They did not set-up communication between the batteries and battalion headquarters.
Another battery arriving late in the day did not dig in the trails of their guns or lay wire from the guns to the battery.
Capt. Drake (USA) arrived at Hudong with the Tank Company in the afternoon. Leaving the Tanks at Hudong, Drake drove forward looking for Col. MacLean without success, because MacLean had not arrived yet. But he did speak with Faith. Even though Faith knew the plan was to attack north in the morning-Faith said he saw no reason to bring the Tanks forward that evening. That was a mistake.
SSgt Scott, (USA) a Radio repairman in Headquarters Company, 7 Division, thought the Battalion was not well deployed. These are his comments: “We got in after dark. A hasty guard was set. Supposedly, the road was clear to the Yalu, so it was a sloppy guard. We paid for our poor guard discipline.”
MacLean appeared with his staff later that evening, at around 7 pm. He stated his intentions to attack north the next morning and approved Faiths plan to occupy the Marine positions when they vacated them. MacLean set his perimeter up approximately, 4 miles south of Faith.
I reiterate, as you should know it is the responsibility of the reliving Commander to establish continuous liaison with the relieved unit. Col. Maclean never attempted to make contact with the Marines. The Marines did not know what time he would arrive or if he would arrive at all. That is why the Marines initiated contact with Faith to give him a general briefing and told him what they knew and passed on relevant information to him before they pulled out. Faith apparently did not let them know the Regimental Commander was on deck or invite Col. Maclean to attend. I do not know why he was not included. But, I do know that it is the doctrine that the reliving commander establishes contact.
Chinese records indicate that they expected to be attacking elements of the 1st Marine Division at all the areas that had been previously occupied by the Marines.
On 29 November, late in the afternoon, MGen. Smith (USMC) was informed that he was now responsible for RCT-31 and that the Tank Company at Hudong had made two unsuccessful attempts to reach the forward elements of RCT-31. NOTE: The army hands tactical control to the Marines after they put RCT-31 in an untenable position and everything has gone to shit.
Based on Gen. Smith’s actions with the Marines it can be said with confidence that RCT-31 would not have been in the predicament it found itself in if Smith had tactical authority from the beginning. He certainly would not have sent them forward piece meal; He would have made sure that they were consolidated and not split into 3 or more groups that could not support each other. He surely would have insured that they had set-up a 360 defense (Because the Chinese specialized in infiltration and envelopment, at least one attacking group making immediately for the defender’s line of reinforcement and the rear of the attacked unit. Thus, all around defense was crucial). He would have stressed that there was a dangerous and competent enemy out there ready to attack and that they needed to stay alert and be ready for attack. He would have stockpiled ammunition. He would have kept RCT-31 at Hagaru-ri; unless higher authority forced him to move them.
MGen. Smith asked MGen. Hodes (USA) to draft a message advising the Commander of RCT-31 that his command was now attached to the 1st Marine Division, that no actual troop assistance could be furnished but that unlimited air support was available and that he should make every effort to move south toward Hagaru-ri at the earliest. The dispatch also stated that he should do nothing that would jeopardize the safety of his wounded.
There is no record of how this message was delivered. Wire communication with RCT-31 infantry Command Post (CP) at Hudong was still working on the morning of the 30th, as well as communication via the Tank radio MGen. Hodes had brought with him to Hagaru-ri. Whether RCT-31 CP still had communication with the cut off units is not known.
So, if the message was not delivered it is not on the Marines, it is on the army or more specifically Gen. Hodes, he was tasked with making sure the message was delivered. It is also the responsibility of the original/parent Commander to notify his subordinates that they are now under someone else’s authority/control.
On the morning of November 30th: Army MGen. Barr Commander of the 7th Division arrived at Hagaru-ri to confer with MGen. Smith. Barr then borrowed a helicopter, flew to RCT-31’s location and talked in private with Faith for 20 minutes. Barr discovered for the first time that MacLean was dead, and Faith was in charge. There is no record of Faith disclosing the contents of his conversation to any officer in the perimeter. Nonetheless it is difficult to believe that MGen. Barr would not have delivered MGen. Smith’s message.
I do know what happened to the 31st RCT. I’ve been poking holes in your repeated efforts to disparge the 31st RCT over the last 5000 or so words. A unit 30% smaller than a similar Marine unit, AND missing one of it’s three Infantry BN’s. A unit without the substantial supplies the Marines were able to stockpile over the week or so they were in position (vs. the night of the 31st) . A unit that fought more Chinese and at greater ratio than any Marine unit at Choisin and that the Navy awarded the Presidential Unit Citation, who’s commander was awarded the Medal of Honor. A unit that mauled 2+ Chinese divisions that would have otherwise overwhelmed the Marine airfield and supply depot vic. Hagaru-ri. But YOU know better…
You call these excuses? No, these are reasons but for someone trying to disparage the Army it doesn’t matter. You aren’t interested in understanding history, you just want to polish reputation. Keep talking. You’re an excellent example of the type of respect, honor and professionalism the parent essay was trying to address.
You’re the one that doesn’t know what happened East of Chosin. You are the one unfamiliar with force ratios, Army unit organization, the Marine division not establishing control (which in the grand scheme of things is minor), supply shortages, and an initially successful unit defense for 3+ days under conditions no Marine unit was similarly afflicted.
Instead you look at the last day myopically because in context of the four+ day battle it’s obvious why so many silver stars, distinguished service crosses and even a medal of honor were earned in such a short period. This is what happens when you only read Marine history books which NEVER credit let alone cover Army unit actions in any detail unlike Army history books (One is interested in learning, the other on burnishing reputations).
Further your ignorance of doctrine and what is possible during close combat is a glittering gem of ignorance. During combat operations the higher is responsible for establishing communications with the lower unit. You can’t blame this away. This is different than a passage of lines. Negotiate with an enemy is over running your position in the dark? Have you ever worn a uniform? How many Chinese speakers do you think served in the line? Why would the Chinese stop to negotiate? You quote a SSG, on how well a BN is deployed? I mean really? Heck, why not ask a private how to do the fire support planning for an Infantry company’s 700m front? What you are doing is the equivalent of asking a platoon leader in the Marine Division to opine on the status of the Division. BTW, that SSG’s BN defeated the attack that night… (an appropriate example of your knowledge of the battle and roles and responsibilities on the battlefield)
Leadership? There were no leaders left. They were almost all dead or wounded. You listed 11 leaders and one private from a unit that once numbered in the thousands spread over a mile of road in the dark . READ Appleman’s East of Chosin. CPT Bigger (one of the officers you cited), wounded in both legs and an eye, using two aiming stakes as crutches said it best, ”Small unit leadership was as good as it could have been. Squad and platoon leaders acted professionally and bravely. Company Commanders exposed themselves and were unselfish in performing their responsibilities. I am the only surviving company commander of 1/32 of that campaign and I was just lucky, fortunate or what have you- even though I was wounded.” Name a Marine Infantry BN that had all its company commanders except for one KILLED (not wounded)?
The Chinese were not aware of the importance of Hagaru-ri. If the 31st wasn’t there or didn’t hold for days against the vastly outnumbered the 2+ divisions would have stumbled on Hagaru-ri and with the other Chinese overwhelmed the few Marines there.
Keep talking. You keep showing that you’re an amateur fanboy with a bias who thinks he’s a historian and has a clue about what he’s talking about.
MAJROD COMMENTS: “Further your ignorance of doctrine and what is possible during close combat is a glittering gem of ignorance. During combat operations the higher is responsible for establishing communications with the lower unit. You can’t blame this away. This is different than a passage of lines.”
MY RESPONSE: You need to read the current Army Manuel FM 3-90 TACTICS.
Chapter 15-6.
PLANNING A RELIEF IN PLACE
15-6. Once ordered to conduct a relief in place, the commander of the relieving unit
Contacts the commander of the unit to be relieved.
Also read Army Manuel FM 100-5, Field Service Regulations dated 22 May 1941.
PLANNING A RELIEF IN PLACE
15-6. Once ordered to conduct a relief in place, the commander of the relieving unit contacts the commander of the unit to be relieved.
The above applies to a passage of lines as well as relief in place. Even if it were not made clear in a document (which has happened and had to be corrected) common sense would indicate that the commander of the relieving/passing unit would initiate contact. Because the commander on site knows the enemy situation, terrain, etc. and could be attacked at any time or already be engaged with the enemy.
You obviously were not in combat arms/the Infantry.
MAJROD COMMENTS: “Negotiate with an enemy is over running your position in the dark? Have you ever worn a uniform? How many Chinese speakers do you think served in the line? Why would the Chinese stop to negotiate?”
MY COMMENTS: RCT-31 had vehicles; one wounded ambulatory man could have turned on the lights and signaled surrender by waving a white flag or by raising his empty hands above his head. That would have saved many wounded soldiers’ lives. But, it seems like no one gave any consideration to the non-ambulatory wounded in the vehicles and all that could make good their escape did.
I doubt that there were any American Chinese speakers serving in the line. But there were Korean augments’ serving with RCT-31 and more than likely they knew enough Chinese to communicate with the Chinese in their language and if they could not the Chinese had at least one member of their unit that could communicate with the Koreans in their own language. The Chinese leadership often coordinated attacks with their North Korean allies.
When elements of Task Force Drysdale were cut off the Chinese Political Officer could speak English fluently. That is how the Marines negotiated a conditional surrender with the Chinese. The details of which were in an earlier post.
The Marines/Fox Company at Toktong Pass had Mr. Chung, a Korean interpreter attached to them. But, I am sure you will try to tell me that the army did not have interrupters. Also at Toktong Pass/Fox hill the Chinese set up a loudspeaker and a Chinese voice speaking in perfect English, explained that the Americans were surrounded and outnumbered, and their only way out was to surrender.
There were at least three separate instances and three separate locations where Chinese English speakers attempted to get the Marines to surrender. So, it seems likely to me that there may have been a Chinese English speaker with the unit that attacked RCT-31.
Out of the 135,000 North Korean invasion force, more than 38,000 were the former ethnic Korean soldiers of the Chinese Communist Fourth Field Army. An equal number of former ethnic Korean soldiers of Chinese communist IV Field Army who did not participate in the invasion also served in North Korean army in other regions of North Korea. So, 76,000 ethnic Koreans with at least some basic Chinese language skills served.
By 1945 an estimated 1.7 million Koreans lived in China. An overwhelming majority of settlers, some 80%, came from areas that after 1945 became part of North Korea. All arriving groups of Korean migrants settled in Northeast China forming communities of ethnic Koreans who retained important parts of their Korean Culture. Over time the Korean Ethnic Minority adopted Chinese Cultural features and language skills, developing into the Korean Ethnic Minority of China, concentrated near the 1,416-kilometers long Chinese-North-Korean Border.
Many South Korean soldiers had also served in the Korean Volunteer Army that had helped the Chinese fight the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Some of these men could also speak Chinese as well as their own language.
MAJROD COMMENTS: “You quote a SSG, on how well a BN is deployed? I mean really? Heck, why not ask a private how to do the fire support planning for an Infantry company’s 700m front? What you are doing is the equivalent of asking a platoon leader in the Marine Division to opine on the status of the Division. BTW, that SSG’s BN defeated the attack that night… (an appropriate example of your knowledge of the battle and roles and responsibilities on the battlefield)”
MY COMMENTS: An E6 in any branch of the military certainly knows if the guard was set appropriately or not. Especially in his own area and if it was not set well in one area it is possible it was not set well thru ought the whole. Guard duty for the enlisted men starts in basic training and continuous on for most of their carriers in one capacity or another. For most enlisted; especially in the combat arms field they are well versed on the guard by the time they are senior E5s’. Your inane comments indicate that you are one of the very few officers that look down on the enlisted. You slammed every E6 if not every enlisted man across every service with that comment. BTW I never said or implied that the SSgts’ BN did not defeat the enemy that night.
SSgt Scott, (USA) a Radio repairman in Headquarters Company, 7 Division, thought the Battalion was not well deployed. These are his comments: “We got in after dark. A hasty guard was set. Supposedly, the road was clear to the Yalu, so it was a sloppy guard. We paid for our poor guard discipline.”
Maybe you will accept this officers’ take on the situation. Lt. Mortrude (USA), a platoon leader, who had been a machine gun squad leader during World War II, commented on the problems of maintaining a proper state of alertness on the first night. When he checked the watch he found only one man awake in his platoon and two awake in entire company.
MAJROD COMMENTS: Leadership? There were no leaders left. They were almost all dead or wounded. You listed 11 leaders and one private from a unit that once numbered in the thousands spread over a mile of road in the dark . READ Appleman’s East of Chosin. CPT Bigger (one of the officers you cited), wounded in both legs and an eye, using two aiming stakes as crutches said it best, ”Small unit leadership was as good as it could have been. Squad and platoon leaders acted professionally and bravely. Company Commanders exposed themselves and were unselfish in performing their responsibilities. I am the only surviving company commander of 1/32 of that campaign and I was just lucky, fortunate or what have you- even though I was wounded.” Name a Marine Infantry BN that had all its company commanders except for one KILLED (not wounded)?
MY COMMENTS: Make up your mind! First you state there were no leaders left. Then you state they were almost all dead or wounded. Which implies that there were leaders left, even though they may have been wounded. Then you admit that I listed 11 leaders and one private (I listed a Private First Class). So, you exclude the PFC as a potential leader. Even though you stated in an earlier post that the army trains everybody to be a leader.
This is what I said on leadership – Leadership – You are the individual that continuously uses the excuse that all the leaders were wiped out, and that is why they did not attempt to save their wounded left in the trucks. If leadership were fully infused throughout the ranks then why did everyone head for the hills? It would have taken only one person to stay and proffer surrender terms to the Chinese to save many men from death. There were officers, Staff NCOs, and NCOs that survived. Yet, no one took the time or made the effort to look out for the non-ambulatory wounded men in the trucks.
Here is a short list of some of the leaders/survivors: Maj. Jones, Capt. Bigger, Lt. Smith, Lt. Moore, Lt. Barnes, Lt. McCabe, Lt Campbell, Lt. Mortrude, MSgt Craig, SSgt Scott, Cpl. Camoesas, and PFC Finfrock, and many others.
I have to wonder why you mentioned Capt. Bigger and did not relate the story on Maj. Jones? No matter; but I have to ask… if Capt. Bigger and the other officers could make it the 4+ miles to Hagaru-ri why couldn’t one of them make it 1 mile up the road, (assuming they were the furthest away from the lead vehicles) to the vehicles and surrender, so that they could give the non ambulatory wounded the best chance to survive the war. Also, when unit cohesion collapsed why didn’t any officer or NCO take the initiative to surrender?
I cannot name a Marine BN in Korea off the top of my head that had all its Company commanders except for one killed. But I can again relate the story of Capt. Barber, Fox Company commander holding Toktong Pass.
Here is an example of an understrength Marine unit that was much smaller than RCT-31, which was attacked by a regiment: Fox Company of the 7th Marines (holding Toktong Pass/Fox hill) had been fighting off nightly attacks at the pass since the onset of the Chinese offensive. Attempts by the remainder of the regiment to reach them from Yudam-ni had failed. The only assistance outside units could provide was fire support and delivery of supplies by airdrop (the same support that RCT-31 received although everything was buy air). Capt. Barber’s men held, despite suffering over 50% casualties.
When orders came to break out of Fox Hill. Capt. Barber said he didn’t think he could make it, but that he could hold where he was. He did not say why he did not want to depart Fox Hill: that he couldn’t take his wounded, and he wasn’t going to leave them.
On day 4 of the Chinese attacks on Fox Hill Capt. Barber went to the Medical tents and spoke to his wounded Marines. “Here it is, men. Things are pretty bad. But I’ve seen worse. One more thing—we’re not pulling off this hill unless we all go together. Nobody stays unless we all stay. I led you onto this hill and I and I’m leading you off. That’s it.”
Capt. Barber was wounded in the pelvis and thighbone. The shattered bone caused an infection that infected his entire leg and there were not any antibiotics. Barber’s pelvis was splinted with two pine boughs and a large tree limb was used as a crutch. He had to be assisted to move around the battlefield. On the fight south – shortly after Fox Company left Hagaru-ri, Sgt. (E5) Danford became the Company commander, as there were no commissioned officers left in the unit. He remained Company commander for several weeks after the units’ arrival at Hungnam on Dec 11.
MAJROD COMMENTS: I do know what happened to the 31st RCT. I’ve been poking holes in your repeated efforts to disparge the 31st RCT over the last 5000 or so words. A unit 30% smaller than a similar Marine unit, AND missing one of it’s three Infantry BN’s.
MY COMMENTS: At the end of the first day the task force was disposed in seven different locations spread out from north south over a distance of ten miles. With one key terrain feature, separating the two forward battalions and the artillery from the regimental command post.
By nightfall all units of the task force had arrived except the 2nd Battalion, 31st Infantry. The reason that RCT-31 was missing one of its battalions was because army leadership sent RCT-31 to the east side of Chosin piecemeal. Here is the rest of the story—
Still trying to reach Chosin the 2nd Battalion, 31st Infantry had reached Majon Dong on the 29th. Finally on the morning of the 30th trucks did arrive. The battalion loaded up and proceeded north into the pass. Climbing into the pass the battalion came under fire by the Chinese and was halted. LtCol. Reidy (USA) prepared to assume a perimeter defense for the night and sent a messenger to X Corps to report the pass was not secure.
Marine air had seen the battalion halted and reported to it Hagaru-ri. Learning of the problem General Almond, then at the 1st Marine Division CP. called his chief of staff and directed him to send a message to Reidy ordering him to move forward immediately to join Col Puller at Koto-ri.
Major Joseph I. Gurfein (USA) of the corps staff was sent to deliver the message personally. When Gurfein arrived he found Reidy “frozen and paralyzed.” Gurfein delivered the message. By 1900 Reidy was sufficiently organized to issue an order to his company commanders for the advance, which eventually got under way about 2330.
Gurfein reported what happened next: “At approximately 2345 a booby trap on a bridge in front of the column exploded, wounding one man. The leading company started rumors that it was an antitank gun that it was the enemy shooting, that the Chinese were coming, and that they were ordered to move to the rear. Within ten seconds a near route had started with the tail and lead companies turning to the rear and starting to overrun the battalion command group. Jeep drivers turned their jeeps around and headed to the rear.
The driver of a 1/4 ton truck started to unhitch his trailer to turn around. Not an NCO or junior officer raised his voice to stop the route. The battalion commander, pushed aside by the troops, stood there silently. I had to personally step in and stop the men, order them to halt, and turn them around. That started their moving forward again. By this time the battalion commander was moving back with the column. To the best of my knowledge he did nothing to stop the rout or to control his men. During the commotion not a single shot had been fired by the enemy or us.”
As the battalion neared the top of the pass the Chinese attacked and split it in two. Some of the men continued to move forward while one company set up a defensive position and remained there the rest of the night. Various portions of the battalion reached Koto-ri between 0230 and 0900 the next morning leaving some of their vehicles. At Koto-ri Colonel Puller told them they were attached to him and placed them into his defensive perimeter. Almond, inspecting units at Koto-ri, awarded Reidy a Distinguished Service Cross for getting the 2nd Battalion, 31st Infantry, to Koto-ri. Gurfein, somewhat later, got a Silver Star.
MAJROD COMMENTS: A unit without the substantial supplies the Marines were able to stockpile over the week or so they were in position (vs. the night of the 31st) . A unit that fought more Chinese and at greater ratio than any Marine unit at Choisin and that the Navy awarded the Presidential Unit Citation, who’s commander was awarded the Medal of Honor. A unit that mauled 2+ Chinese divisions that would have otherwise overwhelmed the Marine airfield and supply depot vic. Hagaru-ri. But YOU know better…
MY COMMENTS: That’s right I do know better. The Marines at Yudam-ni did not have a week to stockpile supplies and they were attacked the first night. However, the Marines hauled all the ammunition they could get to Yudam-ni at the cost of food. Army leadership could have done the same things the Marines did if they had wanted to. The army had a greater capacity to ship and provide supplies to their troops than the Marine Corps did. They just did not do it. They also could have sent RCT-31 to the east side of the Chosin as a complete unit instead of sending it piecemeal. They also could and should have sent RCT-31 into the perimeter at Hagaru-ri instead of leaving it hanging out to be destroyed unnecessarily.
The reason RCT-31 was not at Hagaru is because army leadership (MacAruther and Almond) would not believe that the Chinese were in the war despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and apparently they convinced Maclean and Faith of the same.
Major William R. Lynch Jr., a liaison officer with the 7th Division, had been alerted on the 26th to go to Hagaru-ri to act as General Hodes G-3 assistant. Before leaving Hungnam Lynch attended the morning briefing at X Corps on the 27th. According to Lynch when LtCol Quinn discussed the situation along the X Corps front he made only passing reference to the presence of some Chinese in the 1st Marine Division sector and seemed to attach little import it.
Pfc Jay Ransone of A Company was part of a reconnaissance patrol from 1/32 dispatched north with three others, two of who were KATUSAs. The patrol encountered three Korean civilians; one of them was a man in his twenties. He had a story, which seemed to excite the two KATUSAs. The Americans were unable to communicate with the Koreans so the patrol took the young civilian back to the company. An interpreter was called to question the Korean. He said there were tens of thousands of Chinese soldiers in the hills around the Chosin Reservoir. Ransone said his company officers did not seem impressed.
This was Maclean’s chance to consolidate his forces prior to the Chinese attacking but it seems that he may have not believed the report, as he did not take any additional measures in his plans. He apparently thought he was dealing with a beaten North Korean army. Like Almond and MacAurther.
RCT-31 would have contributed more to the security of Hagaru-ri by being inside the perimeter than outside it. If RCT-31 was at Hagaru Task Force Drysdale would not have had to reinforce Hagaru and the Marine and Naval air could have been used help destroy the Chinese at Hagaru and Yudam-ni, as well as Fox Hill. Instead all the Marine and Naval air was sent to help RCT-31 get out of the mess that the army leadership put them in.
RCT-31 would not have been destroyed and many more soldiers and Marines would have lived had they been at Hagaru.
As far as RCT-31 mauling 2+ Chinese divisions, the vast majority of the Chinese casualties were from Marine and Navy close air support.
MAJROD COMMENTS: You call these excuses? No, these are reasons but for someone trying to disparage the Army it doesn’t matter. You aren’t interested in understanding history, you just want to polish reputation. Keep talking. You’re an excellent example of the type of respect, honor and professionalism the parent essay was trying to address.
MY COMMENTS: I am not trying to disparage the army. I am relating historical facts the majority of the time and on very rare occasions an educated opinion. You are the one not interested in understanding history or having a civil debate for that matter.
The Marine Corps does not need me or anyone else to polish their reputation as their performance speaks for its self.
e.g. WHEN THE CHINESE ENTERED THE WAR, THE ENTIRE UN LINE OF FIVE ARMY AND EIGHT ROK DIVISIONS COLLAPSED, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE MARINE DIVISION. THE 1ST MARINE DIVISION WAS THE ONLY U.S. UNIT TO SURVIVE THE CHINESE ATTACK INTACT.
THE MARINES ALSO LOOKED OUY FOR THEY’RE WOUNDED AND DID NOT ABANDON THEM.
THERE ALSO WERE NOT ANY INSTANCES OF THE MARINE CORPS THROWING DOWN THEIR WEAPONS AND RUNNING AWAY.
I find it ridiculous that you have the temerity to speak about honor, respect and professionalism. This very site is not depicting honor, respect, and professionalism. It starts out with the phrase ‘Never Faithful’ which we all know is an attack on the Marine Corps. Also, you personally demonstrate an extreme lack of honor, respect and professionalism by your personal attacks on anyone that disagrees with your opinion or that presents verified historical facts that you do not want to hear.
I on the other hand have debated the issue, presented verified historical facts and have not made it personal.
RCT-31 demise was the result of an escalating succession of logistical, tactical, command and communication failures. It was one of the great, and unnecessary, tragedies of the Korean War.
MAJROD COMMENTS: You’re the one that doesn’t know what happened East of Chosin. You are the one unfamiliar with force ratios, Army unit organization, the Marine division not establishing control (which in the grand scheme of things is minor), supply shortages, and an initially successful unit defense for 3+ days under conditions no Marine unit was similarly afflicted.
MY COMMENTS: You are making assumptions about me without any indications that I do not know the subject. I have never commented about force ratios or army structure. I have never disagreed with you or anyone else on this subject. This seems to be another aspect of your unprofessionalism and attempts to discredit me with your personal attacks.
The reason I do not delve into this issue is because it does not really matter. It is the prerogative of the leadership of each service to set their structure and if it is not done correctly it is that services leadership that is at fault. The same goes with force ratios you cannot control how many units the enemy sends against you. However, you can control how you react to it. You can control if you are going to take care of you wounded or not.
As far as the Marine unit not taking control you apparently missed my last post on the subject. So, here it is again with additional evidence: MGen. Hodes brought the orders to MGen. Smith informing him on the afternoon of Nov. 29th that he had tactical responsibility for RCT-31. MGen Smith (USMC) tasked MGen. Hodes (USA) to draft a message advising the Commander of RCT-31 that his command was now attached to the 1st Marine Division, that no actual troop assistance could be furnished but that unlimited air support was available and that he should make every effort to move south toward Hagaru-ri at the earliest. The dispatch also stated that he should do nothing that would jeopardize the safety of his wounded.
There is no record of how this message was delivered. Wire communication with RCT-31 infantry Command Post (CP) at Hudong was still working on the morning of the 30th, as well as communication via the Tank radio MGen. Hodes had brought with him to Hagaru-ri. Whether RCT-31 CP still had communication with the cut off units is not known.
So, if the message was not delivered it is not on the Marines, it is on the army or more specifically Gen. Hodes, he was tasked with making sure the message was delivered.
On the morning of November 30th: Army MGen. Barr Commander of the 7th Division arrived at Hagaru-ri to confer with MGen. Smith. Barr then borrowed a helicopter, flew to RCT-31’s location and talked in private with Faith for 20 minutes. Barr discovered for the first time that MacLean was dead, and Faith was in charge. There is no record of Faith disclosing the contents of his conversation to any officer in the perimeter. Nonetheless it is difficult to believe that MGen. Barr would not have delivered MGen. Smith’s message.
Two separate army officers and a Sgt. recall hearing the Marines transmitting this message in the clear, to Capt. Stamford’s radio. Capt. Stanford USMC was part of the Tactical Control Party that had been with the 7th Division since Seoul. He called in and coordinated the close air support, and the supply drops. Additionally the marines made numerous attempts to contact RCT-31 via the TACP radio which continued to Dec, 1st. It is known that the TACP radio was inoperable for a short period of time and had to be repaired.
For the next two days individuals and small groups, from RCT-31 with many wounded, and most exhausted, made their way into the Marine perimeter at Hagaru-ri, many of them through that portion of the perimeter held by LtCol Beal’s 1st Motor Transport Battalion.
Thinking there might be wounded and stragglers still out on the ice Beal organized rescue parties and reported bringing in more than 300 men over the next few days. An old mustang that had worked his way up through the enlisted and warrant officer ranks Beal set very high standards of military conduct for him and for others as well. HE WAS APPALLED AT WHAT HE SAW AND BITTERLY CRITICIZED THE PERFORMANCE OF SOME, BUT REPORTED OF OTHERS:
“There were many brave men here this day; men shot through the body helping a buddy; men with hands frozen helping a buddy with a broken leg; men with both legs broken dragging themselves along with their hands and elbows. (There was one case where LtCol. Beal crawled within fifty yards of a Chinese machine gun and the wounded man yelled), “Go back, go back, they’ll kill you.” When he was dragged out and was being carried in my arms he cried and said, “Surely God will take care of you, colonel.” It takes a brave man to sit in sub-zero weather with both legs broken and frozen and tell another man to go back or he will be killed, a damn brave man in any sense of the word.”
On the 2nd one Marine aircraft flew low over the reservoir and reported a column in single file out on the ice. Another flew over the trucks and saw wounded who tried to wave. No enemies were observed around the trucks.
A mile and a half north were more trucks with dead and with wounded who tried to wave and some troops standing about. On the 3rd Beale was able to cross the ice and reach the abandoned truck column. He reported that all those in the trucks were dead, some 300.
Here is where our opinions differ – I maintain that there is rarely (I acknowledge there are rare instance where you may be forced to leave wounded behind) a good reason to abandon your wounded, especially 300 hundred of them, to the extreme cold and the enemy. You on the other hand seem to be arguing that overwhelming force ratios makes it ok to leave your wounded to their fate.
The wounded and those badly frostbitten were processed through the aid stations, sent to the Hagaru-ri airfield and evacuated. Some unwounded survivors were able to work their way aboard evacuation aircraft. COL. FEHRENBACH (USA) CONFIRMS THIS.
MEDICAL AUTHORITIES IN JAPAN WHERE SURVIVORS WERE ARRIVING COMPLAINED THAT SOME WITH MILD FROSTBITE WERE COMING THROUGH. MORE STRINGENT CONTROLS WERE INITIATED.
Precise figure on losses in RCT 31 are not readily available. Appleman estimates that, including the forces at Hudong, there were about 3,200 men in RCT 31, including KATUSAs. Other estimate ranged as low as 2,500. Out of those reaching Hagaru-ri nearly 1,500 were evacuated with wounds or frostbite. There remained 385 members of the RCT who were formed into a provisional battalion under LtCol Anderson and served with the 1st Marine Division on the breakout to Hamhung. This would indicate 1,000 killed or captured.
MAJROD COMMENTS: Instead you look at the last day myopically because in context of the four+ day battle it’s obvious why so many silver stars, distinguished service crosses and even a medal of honor were earned in such a short period. This is what happens when you only read Marine history books, which NEVER credit let alone cover Army unit actions in any detail unlike Army history books (One is interested in learning, the other on burnishing reputations).
MY COMMENTS: I am reading army historical accounts and army history books. I have not said it on this site but I have always acknowledged that the majority of the men of RCT-31 did a hell of a good job under the circumstances that there leadership put them in.
Gen. MacArthur and Almond did not help RCT-31. RCT-31 should have never been put in the untenable situation they were put in. It was unnecessary, and a waste of a good unit that could have been used elsewhere.
Col. Maclean and Faith also made some mistakes that did not help their unit’s situation. All of the above leaders believed that the Chinese were not in the war based on MacArthurs and Almonds assertions despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary..
MAJROD COMMENTS: The Chinese were not aware of the importance of Hagaru-ri. If the 31st wasn’t there or didn’t hold for days against the vastly outnumbered the 2+ divisions would have stumbled on Hagaru-ri and with the other Chinese overwhelmed the few Marines there.
MY COMMENTS: The Chinese were certainly aware of importance of Hagaru-ri. They just had several back-up plans that would accomplish the same goal.
Taking out Hagaru would just have made it harder for the Marines at Yudam-ni and Fox hill to fight there way south and the casualties would have been steeper. It would not have stopped the Marine positions south of Hagaru. That is why Funchilion Pass was there main effort to stop the Marines.
Once again your personal attacks on me end up describing yourself. You shot yourself in the head.
Dude, hang it up you are making a fool of yourself.
The passage of lines was complete well before the battle was started. During the four days the Marines never attempted to establish communications to include when they were supposed to doctrinally when they became the higher command.
Please don’t try and insult my service especially since you never wore the uniform. I was an Infantry officer for over 20 years.
Ref white flags, you can’t see them in the dark.
You don’t search for interpreters in the middle of a firefight.
Taktong Pass was a stationary fight not a fighting withdrawl. There were no loudspeakers on East of Chosin.
Any soldier, NCO or officer knows about his immediate surroundings. He cannot speak to a unit’s posture over miles of front. Assuming you are quoting the NCO in context taking a seargents word for what a BATTALION is doing is a stretch. I am not slamming NCO’s. You are trying to put words in my mouth because your logic, evidence and argument is weak. How would LT Mortude know who was awake in his entire company? Did he check the other two platoon’s lines?
Leadership, when a unit loses 30% of its strength it is typically considered combat ineffective. The span of control of a leaders is 3-5 men. When you lose most/all leaders it becomes impossible to command large formations of troops (the RCT started with close to 3000 troops). You are trying to use semantics and refer to the Marine experience but continually fail to address that no Marine unit at Chosin lost anywhere near the leaders the 31st RCT did (to include CPT Barber and Fox Company who BTW were not withdrawing in the dark with almost half their unit being casualties, they were holding their position). This is a simple concept to understand as well as how difficult it is to move under fire in the dark. Again, your ignorance is on parade.
The Marines at Yundamni had not arrived that day. You are comparing apples and oranges.
I do not deny mistakes were made at the highest levels just like mistakes were made at Wake Island, Peleliu, Tarawa and the Mayaguez . Those higher decisions do not detract from those in the fight.
The 31st RCT’s mission wasn’t to protect Hagaru ri it was to protect the eastern flank of the Marine division East of Chosin. It did that for days unsupported by the Marine Division it was protecting, which was fighting for its life. The Marines were in much better positions in strength, location, ammunition, logistics, disposition and man for man fought less Chinese. Yet despite all those facts you want to disparage and compare the unit that was wiped out that allowed the Marines time to secure their rear, logistics and airfield?
Like I said, you’re a poster child for the reason the original article was written.
YOUR boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine, u asshole!!!!! sTOP THE PATHETIC USMC LIES
DECORATED NAVY HERE, U USMC CUNT, PUSSY!
Fake news. You have not proven anything but that the jarhead propaganda brainwashing is strong in you and I’m sure you also only eat red crayons.
Scott you clearly have Marine penis envy! History speaks for the truth and on the side of the Corps……don’t take my word ask the 8th Army that retreated 275 miles NKorea worst retreat in the history of the US or when the Army surrendered at the Battle of the Pillipines when Army Gen. Wainright surrendered over 100 thousand US military men women and civilians and that is not enough ask Pat Tillmans family…..Rangers lead the way and it’s better that way!
You mean historical distortion and jarhead propaganda. The Philippines has a bigger foot print and more enemies than Guam or Wake ever had. 51 days of fighting against a greater enemy than a small island of Wake and the jarheads only fought for 15 days before surrendering. lets not talk about the countless jarhead lives that were lost due to ineffective frontal assault against heavily fortified enemy positions in many of the islands, basically being what they later where know as, Sandbag Sallies. The Army had more Soldiers in the Pacific then jarheads and at the same time fighting in the more dangerous and far superior enemy forces in Europe. Jarheads had less personnel and more casualties compared to the Army which had more personnel, less KIA and more enemies killed and displaced. Jarheads did nothing in Europe or Africa, pointless for jarheads to be in those theaters. Jarheads where doing small island hopping and leaving the big island fighting for the Army. The jarheads “famous” Okinawa amphibious landing was conducted with the Army. Soldiers can do amphibious landings and conduct them well, so jarheads are not needed. The current jarheads are not real “Marines”, they are a cult, showing only loyalty to the Corps not the country. Real Marines where disbanded and they hold the honor of being the few and proud. Current jarheads are imposters with a fabricated history for example devil dogs, fabricated. Blood stripes, fabricated. Corps birthday, fabricated. This list goes on and on.
This is in old thread and it took a long time to read through it. I am amazed that there are service members on here that spew such hate towards their brothers in arms. I am a vet of 2 wars and pretty beat up because of them. I hate the banter that goes back and forth. I never understood it and never will. That is just my personality. I chose the Army not because it was tough or because of the uniform. My father was a Navy man. I chose it to honor my Grandfather.He was a WW-II vet that was a Paratrooper that participated in the D-Day invasion. Nothing was better than the look on that old man’s face when I returned from jump school in my dress uniform and boots wearing that beret. I take great pride in that uniform JUST for that moment alone.
I love all of my brothers in uniform. The first time that I was injured it was an Air Force doctor that operated on me and patched me up pretty well. The second time I was injured it was a Navy Corpsman that fixed me up. I am thankful for all of their service and sacrifices.
My whole point is attack the situation and not each other. Yes we get emotional about these things but sometimes with a little reason and willingness to be open minded….the truth will prevail.
Some of the comments are so heated you would think the marine corps was about to wage war on the US Army.
The marine corps is a bit bloated and needs to be cut in size: surely 200,000 marines are way beyond the naval infantry requirements?
However, the corps should be maintained, not scrapped.
The marines are proud warriors and they are needed, just not in the bloated numbers they currently have.
Given their bloated numbers they have become a second land army and have foresaken their roots as a naval infantry/police force. What business they have fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan, a country without a coast line? Shouldnt they instead be fighting pirats on the high seas? For example Somali pirats, etc. If the corps moves away from its sea based operations for which it was designed, and into army’s job description then this will invite more questions for the marine corps integration into the army. And rightly so.
First of all X Corps did not give up its overall command responsibilities. Almond was calling the shots. He was the higher authority. Marine Gen Smith was only given tactical authority and he was first made aware of that on the afternoon of November 29th.
At X Corps headquarters General Almond issued an order, which instructed the 1st Marine Division to move the 5th Marine Regiment west to Yudam-ni on relief by an “element” of the army’s 7th Division, and to complete the airfield at Hagaru by 1 December. The 7th Division was ordered to relieve the 5th Marines east of Chosin with not less than one infantry battalion.
5th Marines, with attachments, moved from east of the reservoir to Yudam-ni. On orders issued by Almonds X Corps headquarters.
It seems you do not know the difference between a relief in place and a passage of lines but it does not matter, as the result is the same as far as responsibility goes.
Passage of Lines: An operation in which a force moves forward or rearward through another force’s combat positions with the intention of moving into or out of contact with the enemy. A passage may be designated as a forward or rearward passage of lines.
A commander conducts a passage of lines to continue an attack or conduct a counterattack, retrograde security or main battle forces, and anytime one unit cannot bypass another unit’s position.
According to the Army Tactics Manuel: FM3-90 Chapter 16-10.
In a passage of lines, the headquarters directing the passage (in this case Almonds X Corps) is responsible for designating—
1. Subsequent missions for both forces.
2. When and under what conditions passage of command takes place.
3. Start and finish times for the passage.
4. Contact points between the units involved.
5. Common maneuver control measures and graphics.
The directing headquarters (Almond again) normally establishes this information in either the warning order or the order directing the passage. In the absence of higher-echelon guidance, close coordination and understanding between the commanders and staffs of the two units are essential to a smooth passage.
According to the Army Tactics Manuel: FM3-90 Chapter 16-12.
After receiving the warning order that directs a passage of lines, THE PASSING UNIT’S COMMANDER AND KEY STAFF REPRESENTATIVES GENERALLY CO-LOCATE WITH THE COMMAND POST OF THE STATIONARY UNIT TO FACILITATE IN PLANNING THE PASSAGE AND ESTABLISHING COMMON SITUATIONAL UNDERSTANDING. IF THE PASSING UNIT CANNOT CO-LOCATE ONE OF ITS COMMAND POSTS TO HELP PLAN THE PASSAGE, IT CONDUCTS EXTENSIVE LIAISON WITH THE STATIONARY UNIT (Col. Maclean USA should had made liaison with the Marine unit). The planning focus for both the passing unit and the stationary unit is on operations following the passage.
There are numerous reasons for the necessity to conduct a passage of lines between units. These include:
1. A window of opportunity presents itself to exploit offensive success against the enemy. Thus, forces may be maneuvered forward of their current positions and maneuver through stationary forces. These forces may execute a counter-attack, envelopment, or pursuit in this window of opportunity.
2. Because of the terrain or time constraints, it may not be feasible to bypass a stationary unit.
3. A unit has completed a mission such as a screen or covering force and now has been ordered to fall back to positions in the rear area.
4. A unit is losing significant combat power and must break contact with the enemy before becoming decisively engaged.
5. The forward unit has been ordered to conduct a retrograde operation (delay, withdrawal, or retirement).
6. Free the unit for use somewhere else on the battlefield.
7. Sustain the tempo or momentum of an offense.
Relief in place: Is an operation in which one unit is replaced, on a specific piece of terrain, by another unit. This may occur as part of an offensive, defensive, or stability operation. It can be executed during all types of weather and in day or (preferably) night conditions. A HIGHER HEADQUARTERS COMMANDER WHO HAS COMMAND AND CONTROL AUTHORITY OVER BOTH THE RELIEVED AND RELIEVING UNIT NORMALLY ORDERS A RELIEF IN PLACE (this is Almond at X Corps).
There are numerous reasons why you would conduct a relief in place. These include the following:
1. The higher headquarters may possess a fresh, combat ready unit that it wants to get into the fight.
2. A unit has taken significant losses in combat and is/or near being combat ineffective.
3. A unit may have gone through some significant emotional/mental stress and needs to be pulled back away from the front.
4. A unit may simply be tired physically and mentally and needs a rest.
5. A unit may have been hit by a chemical or biological weapon and it has been decided they will be decontaminated in the rear area.
6. A UNIT HAS BEEN ASSIGNED A NEW MISSION. HOWEVER, THE TERRAIN IT CURRENTLY OCCUPIES IS STILL IMPORTANT TACTICALLY TO THE HIGHER HEADQUARTERS COMMANDER. CONSEQUENTLY, ANOTHER UNIT MUST OCCUPY IT.
7. The higher headquarters Commander may conduct a relief in place as part of a deception operation. Obviously, this is resource intensive, but it can pay dividends. The act of the relief in place may cause the enemy Commander to react in a way that may put him at a disadvantage.
8. The higher headquarters Commander may initiate a relief in place so the relieving unit can establish some type of security force forward in the area of operations.
According to the Army Tactics Manuel: FM3-90 Chapter 15-6. Once ordered to conduct a relief in place, (by higher authority (Almonds X Corps) THE COMMANDER OF THE RELIEVING UNIT CONTACTS THE COMMANDER OF THE UNIT TO BE RELIEVED (MacLean should have contacted the Marines, and he did not). The co-location of unit command posts also helps achieve the level of coordination required. If the relieved unit’s forward elements can defend the AO, the relieving unit executes the relief in place from the rear to the front. This facilitates movement and terrain management.
Lt Mortude stated that he checked the entire company.
You were the one arguing that RCT-31 protected Hagaru –ri right flank in an earlier post.
You claim to be an infantry officer and you do not know or understand the Army Tactics Manuel. You made a fool of yourself and showed your ignorance.
East of Chosin is right of Hagaru-ri. When you orient a map east is to the right.
You’re copy/pasting from manuals you don’t understand and can’t apply. I’m not the fool but keep talking. Everyone is figuring it out.
Gob bless you with the majrod!
another jarhead that easts crayon spouting jarhead propaganda due to his brainwashing. I dont care what your DI’s brainwashed you into thinking, you are not special, you are not elite, you are not better than anyone else in the world. Jarhead copy and pasting, thats cute. Im sure you did not do it yourself because jarheads are incapable of thinking outside the cult theology of the Corps. the red crayons are the ones you should be eating, other jarheads have said they taste the best.
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I could care less Ive been on both sides of the fence! I am not discrimanant i just hate everyone thats not green!!!!
LOL, what a desperate article that is full of conjecture. Shame on you. You really need to go back to school or read a couple of books from WWII, or even OIF/OEF. Lets see:
1. Pat Tillman
2. Jessica Lynch
3. Multiple generals in recent sex scandal
4. Walter Reed
5. 2.9 billion in lost equipment in the last four years
Do I need to go on?What service am I discussing?
Get smart before you fart out of your mouth.
YOUR boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
DECORATED NAVY HERE, U USMC CUNT PUSSY!
Wrong jarhead. These supposed books you have read are not named or listed. So go back to eating crayons and being a good jarhead and keep praying to your cult.
Everyone recognizes that East of Chosin is on the right. I have not in any way disputed that.
I stated that RCT 31 did not protect Hagaru right flank.
Rct 31 was located at least 12.5 miles North of Hagaru. At best they were NNE of Hagaru.
You don’t go by a large area when you are talking about protecting flanks. You go by where the units are actually positioned/located relevant to each other.
RCT-31 fought its way south towards Hagaru. That should have been your first clue that RCT-31 was not in a position to protect Hagarus right flank.
If anyone cares to look back at your earlier comments they will see that you initially claimed that RCT-31 protected Hagaru right flank. Then later you said that RCT-31 protected Yudam-ni right flank.
Hagaru is located on the southern tip of the Chosin. The MSR which RCT-31 used to travel to and from their positions passed through Hagaru and up the east side hugging the Chosin. Faith spent his first night on the hill 1221 then he moved to the Marines positions the next morning on hill 1425 which is located at the inlet; as the crow flies; from the inlet to Hagaru is directly north.
As far as the manuals go it is not hard to understand or apply.
You are a waste of time. You do not desire to have a courteous dialogue or debate the points. You have nothing and cannot justify your position that is why you are heavy on the personal attacks and short on facts and examples.
When I first stumbled onto this site I pointed out that the author of this site had a lot of incorrect information and recommended several books to read. The personnel attacks started then and have not ceased. The personal attacks are the result of some members of this site trying to defend the undependable. Otherwise they would give examples and explain themselves.
Read THIS KIND OF WAR by U.S. Army Col. T.R. Fehrenbach. He commanded units in Korea at the platoon, company, and battalion levels.
This book was also on the Army Chiefs of Staff list of recommended reading.
Without the 31st RCT the Marines would have lost Hagaru, their airfield and supply depot and fought 2-3 more Chinese divisions.
You have spent your time disparaging this unit with the most hateful, disgusting and often discredited assertions of cowardice and a lack of leadership. The 31st RCT unlike any other Marine unit faced more enemy with less people, alone and unsupported and suffered more losses especially among the leadership than any other unit. A unit that the Department of the Navy awarded the PUC and whose commander was awarded the Medal of Honor. Yet you know better…
I knew COL Jones who was there. I have over 24 years in uniform, two decades as an Infantry officer. I have multiple degrees to include a masters in leadership and am a graduate of the combined arms generals staff college. I have read at length on the subject, been responsible for conducting an officer professional development presentation for company through field grade officers at the Brigade level. Among my dozen or so awards is a CIB Yet you deem to be more knowledgeable of leadership, doctrine and combat.
.All this and you expect “respect”.
“Sir”, the fact that I’ve accorded you my time is far more than you deserve.
BTW, East of Chosin is also on the Army Chief of Staff’s reading list. It’s seven books above Fehrenbach’s fine book which I have also read.
Click to access FC_Odierno_0312.pdf
You are a myopic Marine Corps booster and while the Marines have much to be proud of your support doesn’t do them honor. I will let the reader decide who’s credible ref the 31st RCT at Chosin but I will debate you no further. When arguing a fool one runs a real risk of bystanders not being able to tell the difference.
This is what Col. David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret.) had to say about the Marines.
THE MARINES HAVE LANDED — AGAIN
By David H. Hackworth
The first non-Special Ops unit deployed to Afghanistan is the U.S. Marines Corps — no big surprise to this old Army doggie.
In World War II’s South Pacific, Marines were “the firstus with the mostus” into the Solomons, and they led the way into Vietnam. In Korea, they landed second, but unlike the Army units initially deployed there, Gen. Edward Craig’s Marine brigade hit the beach ready to fight. And without their skill, sacrifice and courage, the beleaguered Eighth Army would’ve been pushed into the sea during the early months of the conflict. A similar scenario occurred during the early stages of Desert Storm, in which Marine units came in ready to fight while the first Army troops — the 82nd Airborne Division, with its insufficient anti-tank capability — were a potential speed bump waiting to be flattened.
The Corps, which has never lost sight that its primary mission is to fight, remains superbly trained and disciplined — true to its time-honored slogan “We don’t promise a rose garden.” When, under Clinton, the Army lowered its standards to Boy Scout summer-camp level in order to increase enlistment, the Corps responded by making boot training longer and tougher. Now under USMC Commandant James Jones, that training has gotten even meaner for the young Marine wannabes waiting in line to join up, as well as for Leathernecks already serving in regular and reserve units.
Unlike U.S. Army conventional units — their new slogan, “An Army of One,” says it all — the U.S. Marine Corps remains a highly mobile, fierce fighting team that has never forgotten: “The more sweat on the training field, the less blood on the battlefield.”
The Marines are flexible, agile, ready and deadly, while the Army remains configured to fight the Soviets — who disappeared off the Order of Battle charts a decade ago. For example, right after Sept. 11, the two Army heavy divisions in Germany — with their 68-ton tanks that can crush almost every bridge they cross — deployed to Poland for war games.
Hello, is there a brain at the top somewhere beneath that snazzy Black Beret being modeled at most U.S. airports by too many overweight Army National Guard troops?
The Army has eight other regular divisions, all designed to fight 20th-century wars. Three are heavy — Tank and Mech Infantry — and two are light, the storied 82nd Airborne and the elite 101st Airborne (now helicopter), and then there’s the light/heavy 10,000-man 2nd Division that’s in Korea backing up a million-man, superbly fit South Korean Army.
Less the light divisions, our Army’s not versatile, deployable, swift or sustainable. The heavy units require fleets of ships and planes to move them, and it takes months to get them there — it took Stormin’ Norman six months to ready a force for Desert Storm. The 101st — while deadly, as Desert Storm proved — is also a slow mover requiring a huge amount of strategic lift — ships and giant planes — to get to the battlefield, not to mention the massive tax-dollar load to outfit and maintain it.
Sadly, today’s Army is like a street fighter with brass knuckles too heavy to lift.
After the Rangers’ disaster in Somalia — where there were no tanks to break through to relieve them — and the embarrassment of not being able to fight in the war in Serbia, Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki started forming light brigades strikingly similar to USMC units. When I asked, “Why the copycatting?” an Army officer said: “It was either copy or go out of business. We’d become redundant because of long-term lack of boldness and imagination at the top.”
The Army costs about $80 billion a year to run. It’s time for Congress to do its duty and stop enjoying the benefits of all the pork this obsolescence and redundancy provides. If the Army can’t change with the times — as the powerful horse cavalry generals couldn’t just prior to World War II — then it should fold up its tents and turn the ground-fighting mission over to the Marines.
The law of nature is simple: survival of the fittest. And in the 21st century, heartbreaking as it is for me to admit, the forward-based and highly deployable U.S. Marine Corps is the fittest.
http://www.hackworth.com is the address of David Hackworth’s homepage. Sign in for the free weekly Defending America column at his Website. Send mail to P.O. Box 11179, Greenwich, CT 06831.
(c) 2001 David H. Hackworth
Distributed by King Features Syndicate Inc.
The army did not stop with forming light brigades that are similar to the Marine Corps. Their transition is basically copying the Marine Corps in as many ways as they can. From improving discipline to removing the many different colors of headgear, etc.
(All of the below is what the Marine Corps already does)
This is what the army says it must do:
We must create units that are more relevant to Regional Combatant Commanders and generate versatile combat power with units that are…
• More self-contained, sustainable, lethal force packages
• Organized with capabilities for the full range of missions
• Truly joint interdependent – a trained and ready member of the joint force
• Comprised of adaptive, competent, and confident Soldiers and leaders
They want a Campaign quality army with joint and Expeditionary capabilities.
They have moved from an army based around large, powerful, fixed organizations to an army designed around smaller more self-contained organizations, which will make them a more powerful, flexible and deployable force. This is exactly as the Marine Corps has always been.
The army has also copied the Marine Corps basic building blocks for building its MEU’s and MAGTAFS. The army is using Brigades as their building blocks. The standard maneuver brigade with organic combined arms capabilities will be their basic standard. Then they will combine them with supporting brigades with a standard headquarters, but different and variable subordinate units depending on the mission. They are also using a Tailorable command and control. Once again coping the Marine Corps.
As they say — imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
All valid points gas45, but you miss one salient point. Unlike the Marine Corps, the Army is still responsible for sustained warfare capability. The fad today is fast and agile units, which clearly favor the Marine Corps model over the Army structure, but history teaches that once we look away from that 20th Century capability and exclusively toward the early 21st Century needs, we are doomed to find ourselves in need of those large formations of heavy tanks and large caliber guns.
But you are right, Army leadership over the past seventy years has repeatedly shown itself uninterested, and indeed incapable, of adequately maintaining fast and agile units. Large airborne operations were widely considered to be outmoded by anti-airborne weaponry and capabilities as early as immediately after Normandy. That was why Market-Garden was launched in daylight, as it was agreed that the operation’s only hope of sucess would be with aggressive fighter-bomber sorties against antiaircraft instillations. Likewise, that is why Operation Varsity was a veritable bloodbath for the 17th Airborne Division.
It was clear, and widely agreed before the end of World War II that large-scale airborne operations were obsolete. Then, the emergenge of assault helicopters only reinforced that convention. Yet what did the Army brain trust do? It turned the 8,000-man 82d Airborne Division into a 20,000-man goliath. Instead of reducing the airborne force to its original design of independent regiments and battalions, it actually expanded the division model, doubling its size and burdening it with armor and heavier guns. Genius!
The Army also disbanded the Ranger battalions after World War II. Realized their error, and reinstituted them during the Korean War. Then disbanded them after the Korean War. Realized their error, and reinstituted them during the Vietnam War. Then disbanded them after the Vietnam War. Finally, the Ranger battalions were reinsititued by the late 70’s, and have since been preserved. But the lesson is clear, the Army is historically and institutionally abusive of quick, agile, elite forces.
Perhaps the most revealing, and disturbing example is of the Green Berets in Vietnam. Without question, Army Special Forces in Vietnam rank among the most courageous and capable soldiers in American history. Their mission, accomplsihments and sacrifices place them right up there with those who fought in Normandy and Iwo Jima, yet the Army institutionally tortured the Green Berets throughout the entire era, destroying careers, and of course, disbanding most of the groups after that war.
NO, the Army sadly and simply cannot be trusted with maintaining the Country’s special operations capability.
Pussy asshole propaganda lying bitch marinebitch Bend over! ! stop lying asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U cunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice try jarhead. Keep eating crayons. The other branches has had SOF for a longer time before MARSOC came around. Jarheads are not special.
All your information is false. CIA was first in Afghanistan, then came SF, Rangers, 10th MTN, Rakkasans. jarheads came after. First in Iraq was SF, Rangers and 173rd along with the British, jarheads where not first in those theaters. Jarheads could not even make it to Baghdad after conventional forces where allowed to leave Kuwait and other points of entry and start the thunder run. Light units where already around in the Army well before Somalia, Jarheads failed at having a parachute unit. Jarheads have failed with their command control and logistics in Iraq. 10th MTN came to bail out the Rangers, no jarhead was involved. The Army has 18 divisions, your numbers are not factual. You’re spouting more historical distortions from the jarhead propaganda. jarheads dont even have tanks anymore, hope they lose their artillery as well, its not needed for a maritime force.
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This cracks me up! What the poster said is historical FACT! My question is, does the “Marine” with no legs at the VA,get all butt hurt at the “Soldier” with no legs at the VA? What a bunch of Bravo Sierra! You F’n “marines” that served in 72 or 85 what a bunch of POGS! Regardless of your “title”, your a F’N American with a rifle! There are many “titles” in the US. Military, Cavalry, Artilary, Infantry and marine, along with others. Get over yourselves! Your not the be all and end all, to war. Regardless of “Marine” advertizement, nobody on earth wants to face an/a REAL American with a rifle! I know/have kids that can shoot an eye out of a dove on the wing… and they have never had military training! Other than what I gave them as an Army SSG. and thier dad. Marines and Soldiers have given life, limb and blood for this country! get off your high horse and back to reality. No, the Marines would have not done D-day any better and the Army ()maybe, would have not have done the Pacific any better. But you know what? Our flag was raised on enemy turf, regardless! It wasn’t the US. Marine Corps colors or the Army Colors. But the Stars and Stripes! I served with Marines in both sand boxes in the last two wars and other than the narcissitic attitude of Marines, I saw no diff in the color of blood.
Actually after the 2nd staged flag raising at Iwo Jima, it was said “The Marine Corps will be around for 500 years”. Proof that the jarheads have and always will justify their existence at the expense of other branches and have shown time and time again that they have loyalty to the cult called the Corps, not their country. Real Marines where disbanded. The current jarheads are impostors with distorted history, embellishments and cult status. Jarheads fabricated devil dogs, jarheads fabricated blood stripes, jarheads fabricated its birthday. Jarheads at the VA and all current and future jarheads all believe they are greater than anyone on this planet, even the ones that have never been to combat. Even the ones that lost their legs due to diabetes, still think they are better than any service member who actually deployed. This because jarheads are brainwashed and believe the propaganda that their DI’s have given them. Jarheads have no loyalty but the Corps, they do not love their country but only their cult.
The diff betwen a US.Marine is ass kicking and kicking ass! Either way your going to loose and you ain’t going to like it! To Marine/”Soldiers” of the sea, Soldier brothers or Cavalry Troopers, This we’ll defend!
This writer is an idiot. His boyfriend must be in the Army.
the boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
We’ll jarheads are at sea with Sailors. Wonder what goes on there. Keep eating crayons jarhead, the red ones are supposed to taste the best according to other jarheads.
theres a reason we are the MOST FEARED FIGHTING FORCE THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN. we are the best and the army is nothing but a bunch of pussies who wish they had the balls to try to be Marines. i don’t know where your getting your information but it is all clearly bullshit
LOL. “Most feared fighting force the world has ever known?” I hope you’re not including Vietnam there, where Marines’ willingness to fight was questionable, and their fighting abilities were pathetic. There was a reason Marines in Vietnam were known as Sandbag Sallies. They were famous for refusing to leave the safety of their perimeter and patrol the dark, scary jungle.
At Khe Sanh the North Vietnamese knew the Marines would never leave the protection of camp, and routinely scouted to within several meters of their wire to spot for artillery. With the Marines scared shitless behind their wire, the NVA pulverized the camp with arty fire. The NVA never even intended to attack the Marine camp at Khe Sanh, they didn’t need to. The NVA never considered the Marines a serious threat in I Corps. They knew the Marines didn’t like to patrol, and vehemently refused Gen Westmoreland’s orders to aggressively seek out and engage the enemy. The NVA had learned that just a few artillery rounds would drive the Marines deeper into their bunkers, and while the Marines cowered in their holes, the NVA ran wild in the bush around the camp.
With the Marines cowering inside Khe Sanh, the NVA attacked their real target, the Special forces camp at nearby Lang vei. The NVA always considered their only threat on the entire plateau, the Special Forces camp at Lang Vei.
The Green Berets at Lang Vei had been running deep recon, and successfully ambushing both NVA and VC movement into South Vietnam from North Vietnam through nearby Laos. The Green Berets were collecting reams of actionable intelligence, killing a large number of enemy, and severely disrupting the enemy’s timetable for their upcoming Tet Offensive. The NVA were determined to eliminate the 24 Green Berets at Land Vei.
Should Lang Vei come under attack, it was prearranged that the Marines at nearby Khe Sanh were to provide supporting artillery fires, then send a company or battalion-size relief force. To disrupt that American plan, the NVA simply lobbed a few shells into Khe Sanh, drove the trembling Marines underground, then swarmed Lang Vei with several thousand troops and several tanks.
The Green Berets called on Khe Sanh for the prearranged artillery. At first it was refused, then a couple hours later a few rounds were fired off toward Lang Vei. Then the Green Berets called on Khe Sanh for the prearranged Marine relief force, and they were flatly refused by Col. Lownds. Lownds, who most people now, Army and Marine, admit was a dead-up coward, claimed it would be “too dangerous” to leave camp, and flatly refused to dispatch the prearranged relief force.
Nevertheless, the 24 Green Berets and several hundred of their indigenous troops fought off several thousand NVA and tanks all that night. By morning, the few surviving Green Berets hoped the Marines would be less intimidated in daylight, and made another request for the relief force. Again they were told by Col. Lownds that it was just “too dangerous.”
Monitoring the embarrassing radio transmissions all night from Da Nang, and totally aghast at Col. Lownds’ open cowardice, the Special Forces team’s parent organization quickly organized an ad hoc relief force out of a scattering of Green Berets on hand. The relief force flew in to the “still too dangerous” situation, and easily landed to find several hundred friendly casualties, and a completely devastated Lang Vei camp.
The Special Forces relief force then called on Khe Sanh for medevac helicopters for the wounded. And again, Col. Lownds claimed it was “still too dangerous,” and flatly refused.
But the radio transmissions were also being monitored in Saigon, and by morning they had had enough of Col. Lownds. The Marine colonel was directly ordered from Saigon to mount a medical rescue mission into Lang Vei.
But here’s the kicker. Colonel Lownds’ reprehensible refusal to assist Lang Vei camp was not an Army/Marine thing. While the Special Forces team at Lang Vei camp fought off the NVA, one of Lownds’ own platoons was at the proximate Lang Vei village, and like the Green Berets, completely surrounded and facing annihilation. Yet still consumed and entirely influenced by fear, Lownds was unwilling to leave his Khe Sanh perimeter and assist his own platoon. Rather than comply with his orders, and do his duty, Lownds abandoned troops of his own command to annihilation right along with the Green Berets. Colonel Lownds was simply a coward. YES, a Marine Corps coward.
Pussy asshole propaganda lying bitch marinebitch Bend over! ! stop lying asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U cunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More jarhead propaganda. Keep eating crayons jarhead, you are not special.
At the end of WWII, there was considerable political wrangling, including some of the misleading reporting incorporated into this article, aimed at disbanding the Marine Corps. Here’s how the Marine Commandant at the time, General A. A. Vandegrift, responded during Congressional testimony: https://www.mcu.usmc.mil/historydivision/Pages/Speeches/BendedKnee.aspx
Enough said. Semper Fidelis
your loyalty to the Corps and not the country is prevalent. jarheads are brainwashed and led to believe their propaganda, distorted history and embellishments. Jarheads love their cult more than their country. Nothing they ever say has anything to do with this country, its always about the cult called the Corps. Every other branch has loyalty to the country. Jarheads have lost their tanks, this is a good first step in fighting the jarhead propaganda machine. Keep eating crayons jarhead.
Your facts are inconclusive and all wrong.
You vehemently seem to overlook the one great fact why Marines are in existence still today…We get the job done cheaper, better and with less Bitchin than the Army can.
Not too mention 1775 and Turn Tavern.
You can’t out bid a Naval Admiral for his own Sea Soldiers that speak their Language..
Army Dog.
Wrong. Fake news. Keep eating crayons jarhead. You are not special.
FUCK YOU!..And the Mule you rode in on.
Your facts are inconclusive and all wrong.
You vehemently seem to overlook the one great fact why Marines are in existence still today…We get the job done cheaper, better and with less Bitchin than the Army can.
Not too mention 1775 and Turn Tavern.
You can’t out bid a Naval Admiral for his own Sea Soldiers that speak their Language..
Army Dog…..
the boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
listen hear jarhead, the real Marines where disbanded. the current lot of jarheads are impostors. they fabricated devil dogs, they fabricated blood stripes, they fabricated the birthday. You cannot have the same birthday as the original Marines due to them being disbanded. There is no continual chain of succession for jarheads. jarheads have always shown to discredit other branches even at the expense of their lives, commit historical distortion, and embellish their cult. jarheads did not accomplish anything in the Pacific without Army’s help. jarheads did nothing in Europe which had a far superior military. if jarheads could do things cheaper, better and for less then they would have been in huge numbers in Europe, which they where not because they where not really needed or wanted. They where out in Africa being camels.
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Lt. General Robert L. Bullard from his book American Soldiers Also Fought had this to say about the Marines after the battle of Belleau Wood: “The Marines didn’t ‘win the war’ here. But they saved the Allies from defeat. Had they arrived a few hours later I think that would have been the beginning of the end: France could not have stood the loss of Paris. So today at Belleau Wood stands perhaps America’s finest battle monument.” Interesting to note. General Bullard was the CO of the 1st Army division and later 5th Corps commander at the Meuse-Argonne Forest. What is interesting is that this Army General didn’t even mention the 9th & 23 Infantry in his comments about Belleau Wood.. Is that the Marine Corps fault too?!
more historical distortion and embellishment by the jarhead propaganda machine. jarheads where dying in numbers at Belleau Wood. Belleau wood is not the monument of America’s finest battle. No one remembers it, no one talks about it, no one cars about it. The Battle of the Bulge is way more famous and more important and a buncha of jarheads dying for their cult instead of their country.
In June of 1918 at Les Mare Farm in France with just two hundred U.S. Marines, who spilled their blood to prevail against impossible odds, resisting an overwhelming German force of thousands, and turned the battle back against the enemy, saved Paris, saved France, and saved the Allied hope of victory. Called “the Gettysburg of the Great War” by many at the time, it rescued America and its allies from almost certain defeat.
Dr. Axelrod, University of Iowa.
Army General Hardboard; in his official report had this to say of the Marines at the time: “What can I say of the gallantry with which these Marines have fought!!! I cannot write of their splendid gallantry without tears coming to my eyes. There has never been anything better in the world.
Army general Tasker Bliss told Pershing that he believed the battle had “stopped the German drive and very possibly saved Paris” – something the French had no doubt about. That is why the french named Belleau Wood after the Marines.
Pussy asshole propaganda lying bitch marinebitch Bend over! ! stop lying asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U cunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See how the jarhead propaganda machine works. Les Mare Farm was not a pivotal battle. You just proved how classy the Army is, they will not talk down on another service, jarheads on the other hand will, to embellish themselves to add to the propaganda for their cult. Those days are over. The other branches will not turn the other cheek for the jarheads no longer. Keep eating them crayons.
As a former Marine I respect all branches of the services. And I have to admit when the United States Army gets crackin they are the best Army in the world bar none. Their history represents most of America’s military history in wars so I would never undermine anything they have done. With that said I think where Marines can make an argument for our selves on being the best is when it strictly comes to Elite Units not just in this country but in the world. There have been many elite units in world history but none have a history like the Marine Corps. I don’t care if they were Waffen SS units, British commandos, airborne, rangers even the SEALS, None of those elite units have a history like the Corps has. Wake Island is one of the greatest defensive stands in military history and the most decorated platoon in American history is a Force Recon team led by MOH SSGT James Howard when 16 Marines and two Navy Corpsman (or as our communist leader in the White House calls them corpse men) held off 300 NVA with no machine guns just rifles, K-Bars, grenades and their fists. Sgt Mitchell Paige and 32 Marines took on 990 die-hard Japs one night on Guadalcanal and killed over 600 of them. This is where Marines have bragging rights when it comes to being the best elite unit in history. I saw some comments about Task Force Faith that were a little misleading which is why I highly recommend Roy Appleman’s book called East of Chosin which is the best book written on what happened to those brave Army soldiers. What a lot of Army folks don’t know is that Appleman (an Army officer in his own right) gives a lot of credit to one man, Marine Capt. Ed Stamford, who was attached to Task Force Faith on how most of the Chicoms were killed. He was a Marine forward air observer who constantly called in air strikes on the Chicoms that killed most of them and not by Army ground forces. That’s Appleman speaking not me. He also stated that it might have been Aussie air pilots who dropped napalm on lead units trying to breakout which help the Chicoms rout Task Force Faith. Their main problem was not for a lack of fighting hard but were led instead by an incompetent general named Ned Almond. He was trying to fight a European style of fight in the wrong part of the world. Hope I don’t piss off a lot of veterans out there but there it is. As police Sgt Joe Friday once said “Just the facts ma’am, just the facts.”
Wrong. jarheads dont have a better history than other branches. jarheads are not better than SOF or specialized units. Keep eating crayons jarhead.
This entire article and chat make me sick… Former Marine here. How about all of those who haven’t served just say thank you, and those who haven’s served in combat just keep their mouth shut. Who cares who led who or who won what battle? Wars are fought on the backs of those who never had a voice. So why are there so many speaking up to this article? I love the corps, but I would serve my country standing next to anyone willing to do the same.
MARINES ARE NOW AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE BEST FIGHTING FORCE IN THE WORLD!!! IS THIS IDIOT EVEN A VET OR JUST AN OPINIONATED A-WIPE?
the boyfriend is in reality a bitchwhore pussy marine u asshole!!!!!
DECORATED NAVY HERE, U USMC CUNT PUSSY!
Jarhead propaganda, keep eating crayons jarhead. Without the Navy the jarheads would not get anything accomplished. Jarheads are a department of the Navy, not even a real branch, its a cult.
You’re an idiot. Stop writing.
GRENADA
Operation Urgent Furry lasted from October 23, 1983, until November 21, 1983. Combat operations only lasted nine days from October 25 – November 2nd.
The Marine corps with only 20% of the force, ended up occupying eighty per cent of the island.
Within hours of the American assault on the island over 600 Cubans were captured, leaving only light opposition, and yet it took the Rangers and the Airborne three more days to move only four miles.
The army attempted to call the marines for help, but, they could not contact the marines. Even though the army and marines both used UHF radios the frequencies were incompatible, so they were unable to talk to each other.
Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; during the assault on Grenada, 1983. Had this to say –
“We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?”
After Grenada, more emphasis has been placed on joint operations. All the services need to work together so that the United States armed forces can function as one cohesive team that are familiar with each other and can communicate with each other. So, that we do not have another situation like Operation Urgent Fury where the army could not communicate with the marines and vice versa.
The Goldwater-Nichols Department of Defense Reorganization Act of 1986 changed military structure. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was given operational authority over the service chiefs. He also became the primary military advisor to the President, National Security Council, and Secretary of Defense. The reason for the change was to bring all military services closer together and to create a “joint” force that could train, communicate, and fight as one.
Note: Many years ago the Chinese army had identified the rivalry between the services as one of the U.S. Militaries weakness.
No single soldier, sailor, airman, marine, coast guardsman, or military unit or service can claim victory. All are essential. As long as all services work together the U.S will have a better chance of winning.
The second battle for Fallujah is the best example, so far, of all services working together as a joint force. The army, air force, navy, and marines fought side by side in Fallujah. The melding of army and marine units was seamless. There were army units embedded in marine units, and marine units embedded in army units, etc.
The fighting force consisted of two Marine Regimental Combat teams, two Army Brigade Combat Teams, two Marine Expeditionary Units; two army mechanized battalions, the army’s first Stryker battalion, air force tactical air control teams, army green berets, as well as navy seals.
All services performed admirably. They all fought well, and no one unit or service stood out. It was truly an integrated team effort.
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To all Veterans who made the mistake of coming onto this Left-Wing fucking website. I am a former Marine from the Vietnam War and a Veteran who respects all members who have ever served this country. Don’t you men and women see what’s going on here? A. Scott Piraino is nothing but a Left-Wing Marxist asshole who never served a day in the military yet through his erroneous history has all of you veterans out there putting each other down with a bunch of fictitious stories about each other. That’s his MO to get respected veterans to fall for his sick ass entertainment. He lied about Reagan on this same site. Go check it out with my responses. Stop catering to this guy’s amusement and maybe share some honest military history that speaks of all branches in a respectful way. I have a rotten feeling that most of the put downs in this site are not from Veterans at all but Left-wing WUSSIES who don’t have the nerve to serve in the American military. Most Veterans know their own history but after reading a few of these e-mails tell me other wise that these are Marxist assholes just stirring up trouble for the real Veterans out there. My take is Semper Fi to anyone who has worn the uniform of any branch of the services available to anyone brave enough to put it on. Muy Bueno!
I do not know where got your misinformation from. You must be very gullible to believe it.
President Lyndon B. Johnson was so concerned about the battle for Khe Sanh that he ordered the entire military establishment to hold Khe Sanh at all costs. He also had a scale model of the base built for his daily perusal and briefings. Additionally, he also had the Joint Chiefs of Staff give him written guarantees that Khe Sanh would not fall to the enemy.
General Westmorland (USA) also promised that Khe Sahn would not fall and made every effort to see that it did not turn into another Dien Bien Phu.
Khe Sanh’s commander, Col. Lownds (USMC) was informed of the Commander in Chiefs orders not to lose Khe Sanh combat base AT ALL COSTS. It is not unreasonable to conclude that those orders affected his decisions.
In 1967 General Vo Nguyen Giap had been looking at the isolated combat base of Khe Sanh as a likely target.
Giap had been in command at Dien Bien Phu where he had outgunned, and outfought the French and eliminated possible reinforcements or escape by air.
He realized the similarities between the situation at Khe Sanh and Dien Bien Phu. One airstrip, supply and reinforcement by air only, the weather could cut down the availability of vital air support, etc.
The Vietnamese spent over seven months secretly moving men and equipment into the Khe Sahn area. They surrounded and isolated Khe Sahn. Because of the destroyed bridges and overwhelming enemy activity the only way in and out of Keh Sahn was by air.
During a series of desperate actions that lasted five months and 18 days, Khe Sahn and the hilltop outposts around it were under constant North Vietnamese ground, artillery, mortar, and rocket attacks.
A patrol from Bravo Company became engaged with an NVA force of unknown size north of Hill 861. This action prematurely triggered a North Vietnamese offensive aimed at taking Khe Sanh.
The NVA forces were in the process of gaining elevated terrain before the launching of the main attack. The second and third battalions of the third marine regiment, reinforced (Khe Sanh Combat Base) and were given the task of pushing the North Vietnamese off of Hills 861, 881 north, and 881 south.
North Vietnamese forces were pushed out of the area around Khe Sanh after suffering 940 casualties. The Marines suffered 155 killed in action and 425 wounded.
In order to prevent NVA observation of the main base at the airfield (and their possible use as fire-bases), the hills of the surrounding Khe Sanh Valley had to be continuously occupied and defended by separate Marine elements, thereby spreading out the defense.
An entire Marine platoon was ambushed in a blanket of fog just outside the Khe Sanh perimeter where twenty-six men perished. Fellow Marines fought their way out one hundred yards with fixed bayonets to recover the corpses, killing 115 NVA in the process, with eleven more Marines dying.
January 14, Second Lieutenant Yearly and Cpl Richard were killed a few miles northwest of Khe Sahn perimeter by a rocket-propelled grenade.
During the Tet Offensive, there was so much pressure on Khe Sahn airfield that nothing could land or depart from the airport. Khe Sahn was entirely cut off and was running low on supplies. The central ammo dump was destroyed by one of the enemy’s first shells.
The marines had lost all but a small part of their ammunition supply. The marines were in a dangerous position. In a repeat of what had happened to the French at Dien Bien Phu, the air force delivered only 15 percent of the supplies needed to maintain the marines. The ammunition destroyed amounted to almost 1,500 tons, and the total daily target for resupply of all types of beans, bullets, and bandages was only about 160 tons.
The fighting at Khe Sanh was so volatile that not even the Joint Chiefs or the MACV commanders were certain if the base could be held by the Marines. NVA sappers, under cover of darkness, had tunneled right up to the encircling barbed wire and were encroaching the combat base elsewhere in trenches. At about the same time the combat base started receiving nearly 200 NVA artillery rounds a day.
Westmorland insisted that the entire Tet Offensive was a diversion including, the attacks on downtown Saigon and obsessively affirmed that the real objective of the North Vietnamese was Khe Sanh.
In General Westmoreland’s view, the purpose of the Combat Base was to provoke the North Vietnamese into a focused and prolonged confrontation in a confined geographic area.
One which would allow the application of massive U.S. artillery and air strikes that would inflict heavy casualties in a relatively unpopulated region.
By the end of 1967, MACV had moved nearly half of its maneuver battalions to I Corps in anticipation of just such a battle.
There is never, ever only one relief force, because the ability of any relief force to execute its relief mission is based on that units tactical situation at the time of the request.
An example would be during the Korean war if RCT-31 had promised to come to the aid of the marines at Yudam-ni it would have been impossible for them to do so because of the tactical situation they were in.
And if the marines at Yudam-ni had promised to come to the aid of RCT-31 it would have been impossible as well.
So, considering the situation that Khe Sanh was in at the time of Tet. It was not feasible for the marines at Khe Sanh to come to the relief of Lang Vei.
There were two other relief forces slated to come to the aid of Lang Vei. Both of them were U.S. army Mobile Strike Force (MIKE Force) companies at Da Nang, commanded by Maj. Husar, the MIKE Force battalion commander. Col. Schungel called Hussar at 2am in the morning and ordered him to send in the MIKE Force and informed him that he had tanks on the command post.
It is painfully evident that the MIKE Force relief teams earmarked for Lang Vei were not packed and ready to execute their mission. Where they were and why they were not on standby, as well as why they did not have transportation is unknown to me at this time.
But, it is clear that Maj. Husar had to do some quick recruiting. He snatched everybody and anybody within arms reach. He had Chinese Nungs, Rhade Montagnards, Viet Cong Chieu Hoi, a couple of Australians, and four Americans including himself.
He managed to assemble a total of 150 men that he loaded into trucks and headed for the airfield. The mixed bag of armed ethnic troops with different uniforms posed a serious problem. They had a hard time getting entrance into the airbase so that they could board a C-130 that was supposed to head directly to Khe Sanh. Due to a combination of poor planning and execution along with not having a vetted MIKE Force team on standby, the MIKE Force relief company never made it to Lang Vei. They ended up returning to Da Nang that evening.
At approximately three in the morning Capt Willoughby (USA) called Jacksonville at Khe Sanh asking them to place an artillery barrage directly on his position, as well as asking the marines to execute the rescue orders. He was told that there would be no relief force.
The news of the rescue request and its denial by the marines quickly reached the commander of all Special Forces in Vietnam, Col. Ladd. Col.Ladd called Saigon immediately, and spoke directly to the commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam – Gen. Westmoreland (USA).
Gen. Westmoreland told Col. Ladd that he was not going to overrule Col. Lownds (USMC) decision.
Col. Ladd called Gen. Westmorland a second time around 4am and requested to mount his own rescue mission. He was turned down.
That same day Col.Ladd flew to Da Nang to meet with Gen. Westmorland, who had flown there from Saigon. Col. Ladd spoke with Westmorland for the third time about the Lang Vei relief effort. The answer that Col. Ladd received did not please him.
Col. Ladd who by this time was very frustrated contacted Gen. Abrams (USA). He told Abrams that he was not getting any action from Gen. Westmorland. Gen. Abrams called Gen. Anderson (USMC) who was the commanding officer of the 1st marine Air Wing. Gen. Anderson provided the CH-46 helicopters that would fly in the relief force and fly out the survivors and the covering force.
Gen. Westmorland insists that he was the one that made the decision to send in the marine helicopters.
It seems like many army members believe that they are the only ones that have the capability to deploy within 18 hours. Sorry, I have to burst your bubble.
The Rapid Deployment Joint Task Force (RDJTF) stood up on 1 March 1980. The Commander of RDJTF was a three-star position, first held by General P.X. Kelley, (USMC) and then by General R. Kingston, (USA) the commander alternated between the Army and Marine Corps. The Deputy Commander was usually Air Force.
The Rapid Deployment Force concept developed as a mobile strike force of United States Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps elements that could independently operate without the use of established forward bases or the facilities of friendly nations globally.
In January 1983 the RDJTF became the United States Central Command (The commanders of CENTCOM have for the most part alternated between the Army and the Marine Corps, with the exception of Navy Admiral Fallon, who held the position from March 2007-2008).
All services have designated units with the mission of having combat troops en route by aircraft within 18 hours of executive notification.
This is what Col. David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret.) had to say about the Marines MEU and the 82nd Airborne. “During the early stages of Desert Storm, in which Marine units came in ready to fight while the first Army troops — the 82nd Airborne Division, with its insufficient anti-tank capability — were a potential speed bump waiting to be flattened.”
There is a huge difference in the capabilities of the MEU and the 82nd airborne. That is why the army Col. made the statement above.
False jarhead propaganda. 82nd Airborne has plenty of anti armor capabilities, ever heard of a javelin, you probably arent familiar with artillery either. Artillery can kill a tank or immobilize it. Plus 1st Cav was taking out the armor while the SAS was giving intel to US forces. Nice try jarhead, keep eating crayons.
I believe you are right.
I have not thought of this site in the manner you have described. But, you make sense. I realized that the author of this site was misrepresenting the truth and twisting the facts and at times it seemed to me just outright lying.
It would not surprise me if the Chinese did not start this to create animosity between the services. The Chinese have identified the rivalry between the services – especially the army and marines as one of the U.S. Military’s weakness.
Have you heard of these websites: http://ihatetheusmc.com/ or combatreform.org/ ? Also are you the modern variant of Dr Goebbels?
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There is no point to argue. if America don’t need Marine Corp, it wont exist. the article said the Marine Corp so useless through America history, then why it still exist. either American people stupid or your article is lie..
Actually a buncha of jarheads cried about their existence when twice there was legislation to disband them ( the real Marines where disbanded, the current set of impostor jarheads are not the real Marines). So due to this, it was written that they will exist but in small numbers. Currently the jarheads are losing more and more of their capabilities because of the redundancy from the other branches. Tanks for example, jarheads no longer have tanks (this is more than likely due to the facts that they never use them because they dont know how to use them, they arent maintaining them well so its being more costly). The Army absorbed a majority of the jarheads armor personnel. I’m sure all those mechanics and tankers all claim to be “Force Recon” just like every jarhead that joins the Army.
You sir are a dumbass.
GYSGT USMC
The red crayons taste the best, thats what other jarheads have claimed.
So like has been said, this is a misleading article, slanted pro Army. I noticed the first fallacy in the second paragraph. While technically true that there were no Marines in the continental Army (it was the Army…) you make it sound like there were no Marines in the revolution. Whether or not you meant to write a misinforming article I do not know, but i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you to learn more before writing.
The real Marines from then did fight in the Revolutionary War but in a very small capacity. They didn’t even know how to use them because they where out of their roles from being on the sea, so they did get attached to the an Army unit. They where then put back onto ships. Where they basically stole British silver and gold along with a few ships. The real Marines did contribute but not as much as the Army did.
There is something wrong with the one machine gun story you are telling about Tarawa. Eyewitness accounts do not confirm what you are claiming.
This is what Time correspondent Robert Sherrod had to say. Sherrod accompanied Marines from the fourth wave of LT 2/2 attempting to wade ashore on Red Beach Two. In his words: “No sooner had we hit the water than the Japanese machine guns really opened up on us. . . .There must have been five or six of these machine guns concentrating their fire on us. It was painfully slow, wading in such deep water. And we had seven hundred yards to walk slowly into that machine-gun fire, looming into larger targets as we rose onto higher ground. I was scared, as I had never been scared before. Those who were not hit would always remember how the machine gun bullets hissed into the water, inches to the right, inches to the left”.
PFC Edward J. Moore was the right guide vehicle in Wave One on Red Beach One, hitting the beach squarely on “the bird’s beak.” Moore tried his best to drive his LVT over the five-foot seawall, but the vehicle stalled in a near-vertical position while nearby machine guns riddled the cab.
Moore reached for his rifle only to find it shot in half. One of the embarked troops was 19-year-old Private First Class Gilbert Ferguson, who recalled what happened next on board the LVT: “The sergeant stood up and yelled ‘everybody out.’ At that very instant, machine gun bullets appeared to rip his head off. ” Ferguson, Moore, and others escaped from the vehicle and dispatched two machine gun positions only yards away. All became casualties in short order.
Others who claim that there were many machine guns on Tarawa include Navy Chaplin Willard on Red Beach one. Chicago Daily News war correspondent Keith Wheeler. Navy Corpsman. British officers who went ashore on day two of the battle Lt. Col. Vivian Fox-Strangways and Major F. G. L. Holland went ashore under heavy fire as part of the task force.
Tarawa was fortified with coastal defense guns, 40 artillery pieces in bunkers, a long sea wall four feet in height and at least 100 machine guns in pillboxes. The Japanese pillboxes, bunkers, and supporting ammunition dumps were all interconnected with trenches for effective use by the defenders. The submerged coral reef surrounding Tarawa was thoroughly mined with entanglements between the breaks in the sharp coral ridges.
Gas45-
It’s all really very simple, read the 2d Marine Division’s After Action Report. That is where you will read 1 machinegun and 1 or 2 snipers opposing the landings. I trust the 2d Marine Division knew best.
Robert Sherrod was a proven liar. He was just trying to sell his book, so he sensationalized everything that happened. And by the way, Sherrod eventually had to appologize for lying, so I ain’t lying!
Reading this article it is obvious as to the author’s bias. But what saddens me are the comments of people disbaraging
It is obvious which way this author’s bias is slanted. But was upsets me are all the comments disparaging our armed forces. Being a Marine Mom, I could easily begin to brag about how proud I am of my son, but that doesn’t take away any pride an Army, Navy or Air Force Mom should feel. Our children will all face the same results from a fatal bullet wound. The fact of which branch they served will not make a difference to them or us. The only thing that matters is they were all willing to serve and die for their country. We are all in this together when we are fighting the enemy. Please keep that in mind when you think about ripping apart your brothers and sisters.
Your sons accomplishments arent yours, so there is no need for you to be proud of them and flaunt them around like most jarhead moms who live vicariously through their child’s jarhead career. You son is a man now he is a jarhead. He owns his own accomplishments.
Thank you
8,267,958 men served in the army from 1939-1945, 474,680 Marines served; a seventeen-to-one ratio. 259 soldiers were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, while 81 Marines did. That is a three-to-one ratio. If the army is so great, why did they not win seventeen times the Medals of Honor? Do you mind clearing that up for the world? By the way, the Marines are not another army, they are an elite group of amphibious assault troops capable of hitting any place on the globe in six hours…with real force. Remember that next time the army is mobilizing. As to Iwo Jima, the flag raising captured on Mount Suribachi was the second time, but it was not staged. Mount Suribachi was still plagued with Jap snipers. No one was going to wait for Joe Roesenthal to get his camera ready while the snipers took pot shots. Oh, and by the way, the flag raising was a video with a frame taken from it. You should probably do your research before you write articles. The reason that the Marines and Navy suffered so may casualties there was because the Nips were getting their kamikaze campaign under way and many sailors were killed. The army had complete air cover throughout the New Guinea campaign without insane pilots flying strait towards them. So, many of those casualties (and I love how you subtly combine the Marines and Navy and then compare them to the army) were on the Navy’s side, but surprisingly low considering they had to deal with living bombs. Iwo Jima was threaded with hundred of underground caves, buried in volcanic ash, and 20,000 troops are a lot to deal with on a tiny island like Iwo. The final ratio was one Marine dead to every eight Japs. And Douglas MacArthur should never have had anything to do with the Pacific Campaign, seeing as how 99% of it is water. Kind of a Navy job in my opinion. He greatly demonstrated his lack of good decision making when he overruled Nimitz and decided that Peleliu needed to be taken. This island held no strategic value besides an emergency base for army air force pilots. So, by MacArthurs’s command, thousands of Marines were sacrificed for a few of dugout Doug’s little boys.
Taylor, you sound like a pretty simple prick, so I’ll type slow and use little words.
Correct, just over 8 million served in the Army during World War II, however, the Army was evenly split three ways during that war, with Army Ground Forces, Army Air Forces, and Army Service Forces. The split was about an even three way split, with Army Ground Forces about 33.3% of the serving Army.
Of those, Army Ground Forces was split about evenly in half between Division Forces and Non-Division Forces. Division Forces comprised about 1.2 million men, while Non-Division Forces comprised about 1.5 million men. As I’m sure even you know, Army divisions represent the Army’s land fighting component, while the Non-Division Forces represented the logistical, medical, transportation, JAG, Civil Administration etc.. In other words, all the services the Navy provides to the Marine Corps.
So, in that light, 0.02% of serving Soldiers received the MOH, while 0.01% of serving Marines received the MOH.
And, if you stop to consider the extremely long list of the Marine Corps’ fraudulent awards of the Medal of Honor, the number of serving Marines receiving the MOH is even smaller. The Marine Corps, much like the Air Force, has a long and disgraceful tradition of phony awardings of the Medal of Honor during World War II, such as Vandergrift, Shoup, Boyington etc etc…
One thing about the Army, they don’t hand the Medal of Honor out like candy in the way the Marine Corps has done. History demands that, if a Soldiers is wearing the Medal of Honor, you can be confident he was deserving, while on the other hand, if a Marine is wearing the Medal of Honor, you have to be suspicious.
And Genius, those landing strip islands MacArthur insisted on taking eventually won the Pacific War ( I know you’ve heard of the Enola Gay), saving an invasion of Japan, and saving countless American lives.
Seriously, are all you Marines really this fucking stupid? You’re all really just putting me on, right?!?! This whole stream is all a just a joke right? Like a comic strip? I mean, there can’t possibly be this much collective stupidity and ignorance concentrated in just one group of Americans.
Don’t they have a basic fucking test to get into the Marine Corps?
Good points Thrasherback. But you probably should have explained to Taylor that thousands of Marines died on Pelelui because Chesty Puller was a tactical fucking moron.
At the conclusion of the Pelelui fight, Puller was literally the most hated man in the Marine Corps. Taylor should read Sledge’s “With the Old Breed,” where he explains how deeply and widespread Marines of the 1st Marine Division despised Puller after Pelelui.
And Sledge is believable, his book is one of the very few historical works to have been written without Marine Corps influence and editing. Sledge was there, and wrote straight from notes he had compiled during the war. He needed no Marine Corps help writing his book, so the Marine Corps was unable to influence the book like they typically do with authors as a condition for providing official documents.
Semper Fi,
and “Goodnight Chesty Puller, where ever you are…you Marine killing son of a bitch!”
Perfect example of how the cult called the Corps usually has lower intelligence jarheads that cant do simple math. Aint no jarhead being deployed anywhere around the globe in six hours, just because of bunch of jarheads are always at sea for six months doesnt make it possible to go anywhere on the globe in such small amount of time.
Well, if you think about it a large portion of the Army including Army-Aircorps back then is logistic. You Do know that right? The rest of what you wrote it just typical Marine mumbo jumbo.
and we all know there are many more people who deserve MOH that didn’t receive it. MOH is not black and white is it?
Jarhead live for glory and bragging right, Jarhead put effort pushing for MOH. imo. look at me me me. larger PR staff etc.
Result get more headline in the news.
I would love to see Marine fight a major land war without the Army.
Since the Marine are so superior why didn’t they finish the job in Peleliu? why called in the Army?
Last the German Army is a lot better arm and is more effective then the Japanese Army. Just ask the Russian who face both.
Awesome Job. You bested me on a letter I wrote to ehow.com
The Marines also claim that thier Basic Training is better than Army OSUT and if that is true then why do the Green Berets have an OSUT?
Marines claim that they are better shots at longer range. I can say as a Cavalry Scout who deployed that our 16 week OSUT has a part where they take you into a room with a huge computer screen and rifles with sensors.
The shots they ask us to perform in there would blow any Marines long distance shooting into oblivion
We use computers to seen who can really shoot
That plus the real range
It’s so much harder than you think
The Army will outshoot the Marines for sure.
During training there were soldiers and Marines cheering us on! Back then we were all brothers.
One of our guys was the son of a Marine General who I met and shook hands with and so did my dad.
Our Recon training is Harder than Marines
The only difference between 11Bravo me Marines is that Marines end up all going to the same school when the Army Send you to many different schools. And the Army trains you in your unit by your NCOs when your not.
Your constantly training in the Army.
11 bravos are harder than most Marines. Forget Beating Cavalry.
Marines are jerks to us and say they are first to fight. Even though it was always Special Forces and Rangers leading them into every fight. And the Army Infantry right next to them
Most of what Marines say about themselves are fiction and lies like being called Devil Dogs or rescuing the Army in Korea when it was a Joint Task force involving the best of three branches and other things Marines lie ab
I have more to say but that’s enough for now
Rigo Rivas you make numerous inane comments. The Army Special Forces/Rangers have not and do not lead in every fight. Just like the Marine Corps is not the First to Fight all the time.
Also, the Eighth Army that was pushed into the Pusan Perimeter needed help and the Provisional Marine Brigade—which MacArthur had requested for the amphibious operation at Inchon—had to be diverted to the Pusan perimeter to help save the Eighth Army.
So, in response to your post; all I have to say is read the following books:
The first book I would suggest is – THIS KIND OF WAR written by Colonel T. R. Fehrenbach, USA (Ret.), He is an author and a Historian.
Fehrenbach commanded units in Korea at the platoon, company, and battalion levels.
Col. Fehrenbach’s book is on the Armies chiefs of staff list of recommended reading.
The second book you should read is THE KOREAN WAR by Max Hastings. He is a Historian, author, and editor.
Lastly, this is what US Army Colonel Fehrenbach had to say about the Marines.
“The man who will go where his colors go, without asking, who will fight a fathom foe in jungle and mountain range, without counting, and who will suffer and die in the midst of incredible hardship, without complaint, is still what he has always been, from Imperial Rome to sceptered Britain to democratic America. He is the stuff of which legions are made.
His pride is in his colors and his regiment, his training hard and thorough and coldly realistic, to fit him for what he must face, and his obedience is to his orders. As a legionary, he held the gates of civilization for the classical world; as a bluecoated horseman he swept the Indians from the Plains; he has been called United States Marine. He does the jobs—the utterly necessary jobs—no militia is willing to do. His task is moral or immoral according to the orders that send him forth.”
You are blowing jarhead propaganda. Your famous quote clearly states MILITIA, not Army. Also your story of Marines saving 8th Army is dog water.
To Ken who posted Dec 2, 2014
The Heart Break Ridge movie was just movie for entertainment. It was not a documentary or the History channel where you would expect accuracy. It was simply a low budget film that used some historical events that were loosely based on a fact surrounding the Grenada invasion.
The Director – Clint Eastwood’s concept for the original movie depicting the Army was not totally accurate. The same thing happened when he went to the Marines with the film.
The first part of the movie is a comedy where Clint whips the screw-ups into shape. The Comedy stops in an abrupt manner with 30 minutes left in the film.
Clint Eastwood then transitions to the Grenada invasion which was highly inaccurate. Even on a relatively small budget, the technical advice was poor or the Director did not care for accuracy. You decide.
The US Army was contacted with a view of filming the movie at Fort Bragg.
However, the US Army refused to participate, due to Highway being portrayed as a hard drinker, divorced from his wife, and using unapproved motivational methods to his troops an image the Army did not want. The army called the character a “stereotype” of World War II.
Eastwood then approached the Marine Corps, which expressed some reservations about some bits of the film, but provided support.
The character was then changed to a Marine (this raised some conceptual difficulties, given that the Battle of Heartbreak Ridge was a US Army deal).
It is explained very briefly in the film when Sergeant Major Choozoo tells Jones that he and Highway were in the US Army 23rd Infantry Regiment at the time and joined the Corps later.
The Marine Corps first cooperated with the film project by allowing much of the filming to be done at Camp Pendleton. The Marines planned to use it to promote its “Toys for Tots” campaign, but upon viewing a first cut, the script pissed off the US Marine Corps enough to cancel the cooperation.
The Marine Corps disowned the film because of issues with the way they were portrayed.
First – The Marines were depicted as complete screw-ups.
Second – Highway’s commanding officer is repeatedly shown disparaging and insulting him.
Third – The troops behave foolishly, as if they can ignore orders/commands.
Forth – Highway had the Medal of Honor and was not respected nor saluted and was insulted.
Fifth – Highway being portrayed as a hard drinker.
Sixth – They also had issues with they way he treated women/much of the same questions that the army had when they did not support the movie.
No one should be amazed as to why the Marine Corps and the Army withdrew its support for the film.
It appears to me that the Director got what he wanted. Clint Eastwood needed a base to shoot his movie on that did not cost him anything so that he could make a film like he wanted on the cheap. He was not interested in accuracy or fact. He just wanted to produce a movie on the cheap and rake in the money. He did not listen to the Army or the Marine Corps objections to the way they were depicted. Clint did it his way as most Directors do.
It is foolish to think that the Marine Corps/The institution would try to make an Army historical event theirs.
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First off there were TWO Marine Battalions during the Revolutionary War. They were volunteers, who signed on at Tun Tavern in Pennsylvania on No ember 10th 1775. We were also the FIRST military force to be given the title of “UNITED STATES Marine Corps”. The Army was not given that title (United States Army) until some years later. It is also a Documented FACT that the Marines Corps in any conflict or war ANYWHERE have NEVER retreated! Unlike the Army, which has had its ass kicked on several occasions as well as run from a fight. WWI a captured German officer did state that the Marines fought like Devil Dogs and in the German army they would be the Storm troopers. WWII the Marines were ALWAYS out numbered (2,3,4 to 1) and won victories every time. Marines were in the most vicious fighting of WWII out of BOTH European n Pacific. In Korea General MacArthur himself chose the 1st Marine Division over the Army for the landing and advancement over the Communist N. Koreans/Chinese. Khe Sahn Marines again out numbered and could not give any support to the SF troops. Let’s not forget that NO Marine fire base or station was EVER overrun by the NVA or VC during the TET Offensive. When the Marines show up all enemies have never really pushed to fight them. The Marine Corps is the lowest budgeted service we have (even the Coast Guard is higher). We work w/ less and we like it that we, because NO matter what. We will be victorious. So before you start making statements about your subject. Know your history. In the end we are all brothers and sisters in arms, but ALL Marines are riflemen/women first and for most, unlike ALL other services.
No German officer in World War I EVER called the Marines “DevilDogs.” If so, who was the German officer, what was his rank, what was his unit, who did he say it to, and who documented the statement? Can you even provide even 1 out of the 5 answers?
The Marines were NEVER outnumbered in World War II. In fact, the Marines ALWAYS vastly outnumbered and outgunned their enemy:
Guadalcanal: Marines – 60,000 / Japan – 36,200
Bougainville: Marines – 96,000 / Japan – 45,000
Tarawa: Marines – 35,000 / Japan – 4,820
Peleliu: Marines – 47,561 / Japan – 13,600
Saipan: Marines – 71,000 / Japan – 31,000
Iwo Jima: Marines – 120,000 / Japan – 22,060
Okinawa: Marines/Army – 183,000 / Japan – 80,000
And, the Marines always possessed vastly superior firepower, with the combination of land-based and naval gunnery, and always posessed air superiority. In the European War, the Army was often outnumbred, and routinely outgunned by both superior numbers and superior quality artillery and tanks. In Europe, air attacks against Americans, even during actual amphibious landings, were commonplace. In the Pacific, there was not one documented Japanese air attack, and really not even one sustained artillery barrage, against Americian ground troops.
World War II was essentially fought and won in Europe. The Pacific War was a sideshow against a second rate enemy with dreadfully inferior and unreliable artiillery, armor, and even pathetic rifles, machineguns and mortars. In the Pacific, the enemy was always fixed, without capability for manuever, and with no hope of reinforcement.
In Europe, the enemy was mobile, numberous, well armed and well led. The enemy possessed the best tanks, the best artillery, the best antitank and antiaircraft weapons, certainly the best machineguns, and world-class mortars, rifles and sidearms. The German war machine was quite likley the best and most formidable army in World History.
The most vicious fighting was clearly in Europe. Normandy was the bloodiest battle of the war, with 28.12% casualties. The Hurtgen Forest Campaign resulted in 22.3% casualties, Anzio 19.62% casualties, and the Battle of the Bulge with 16.89% casualties.
By comparison, Iwo Jima resulted in 19.29% casualties, Saipan in 14.63% casualties, Okinawa in 9% casualties, and Tarawa in 6.04% casualties.
In one month in Normandy alone, the Army suffered 63,361 battle casualties, with 16,293 KIA/DOW, and 43,221 WIA. In four years of fighting in the entire Pacific War, the Marine Corps suffered 81,431 battle casualties, with 18,867 KIA/DOW, and 62,564 WIA. Given one month compared with four years, those numbers are pretty close.
And in the very next month in Northern France, the Army suffered another 72,014 battle casualties, with 17,844 KIA/DOW, and 49,919 WIA. In just two months in the summer of 1944, the Army suffered almosdt twice the number of casualties the Marine Corps suffered in the ENTIRE four-year war with 135,375 battle casualties, with 34,137 KIA/DOW, and 93,141 WIA.
No Junior, the Marine Corps was most certainly NOT in “the most vicious fighting of World War II.”
MacArthur chose the 1st Marine Division because he needed a division for an amphibious assault at Inchon, and that’s what Marine divisions are suppose to specialize in. If he had wanted to launch an airborne assault, he would have wanted 82d Airborne. If he had wanted to launch an armored offensive, he would have wanted the 1st, 2d, 3d, or 4th Armored Divisions. He did initiate a major air offensive against North Korea, and he asked for the 15th Air Force. Genius, the 1st Marine Division for an amphibious landing, and the 15th Air Force for an air campaign. You’re actually pretty stupid. The more I write, the more I realize just how fucking simple you actually are.
I belive its spelt Khe Sanh, and the Marines were outnumbered, but never outgunned, the Air Force provided overwhelming air support, and the Marines did have a duty to support and defend the SF camp at Lang Vei, as well as the Marine Corps platoon at Land Vei village, a duty they were clearly derelict in once the bullets started flying, and they started ducking behind their perimeter. Maybe the Col. Lownds was a pussy, maybe not. Maybe he was just overly cautious and abandoned the Green Berets and the Marine rifle platoon to be overrun and wiped-out in favor of saving his own skin. Only he knows. But the senior Marine Corps command in Vietnam, including Lt Gen Cushman and his deputy at III MAF Maj Gen Ray Murray, have suggested he did not do his duty.
And there are numerous documented instances of Marines retreating. They turned tail and ran at Makin Island, abandoning a lost patrol as well as their wounded to the Japanese. They retreated at Sugarloaf Ridge on Okinawa, they retreated at the Chosin Reservoir, They turned tail and ran from Hill in Vietnam, abandoning the wounded survivors of an entire platoon to the fate of the North Vietnamese.
And I’m not your brother. Although I typically like morons, I’ve never liked morons like you.
What the hell are you people doing on this site?! I am a former Marine and Vietnam Vet and I can proudly say that I have had a shit load of relatives who have served faithfully in all branches of the service including the Coast Guard and I am dam proud of all of them. ALL OF THEM DAMMIT! My dad was in the Army Air Corps in WW2, I had 3 uncles in the army who were with MacArthur from New Guinea to the Philippines. My brother put 10 years in the Navy and spent 3 tours to Vietnam on destroyers. I have two cousins who served in the Coast Guard. I have two more cousins who put two tours of duty in Vietnam while they were in the Marine Corps. I have been to the Long Beach VA hospital and talk to all veterans of all branches there and none of them, NONE OF THEM sound like you Yoe Hoes with this rivalry bullshit. All branches work together in getting a job done. Remember this: Only a fraction, just a fraction of Americans will volunteer to defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights that this country was founded on. It’s us vs them not us vs us with these silly ass arguments about who is the better branch of service. You know people that this A. Scott Piraino is nothing but a left-wing Marxist asshole who duped you people into these dumb ass arguments. In summation: GROW UP AND KNOCK OFF THE PUTDOWN BULLSHIT ON THIS SITE!!
There is not a competent commander in any of the worlds military forces that would rely on only one relief force.
With proper planning; it is not difficult to isolate a unit to prevent it from sending a relief force, or in the event it did send one it would be so costly that the losses to cost benefit ratio would be prohibitive.
Col. Schungel (USA) was a competent commander and had two additional relief forces other than the Marines at Khe Sanh slated to come to the relief of Lang-Vei. Col Schungel realized that the Marines at Khe Sanh would most likely not be able to send a relief force due to their tactical situation.
Once again, there is never, ever only one relief force, because the ability of any relief force to execute its relief mission is based on that unit’s tactical situation at the time of the request. An example would be during the Korean war if RCT-31 had promised to come to the aid of the marines at Yudam-ni it would have been impossible for them to do so because of the tactical situation they were in and if the Marines at Yudam-Ni had promised to come to the aid of RCT-31 it would have been impossible as well.
So, considering the situation that Khe Sanh was in at the time of Tet. It was not feasible for the Marines at Khe Sanh to come to the relief of Lang Vei.
There were two other relief forces slated to come to the aid of Lang Vei. Both of them were US army Mobile Strike Force (MIKE Force) companies at DA Nang, commanded by Maj. Husar (USA), the MIKE Force battalion commander.
Col Schungel (USA) called Hussar at 2am in the morning and ordered him to send in the MIKE Force and informed him that he had tanks on the command post.
It is painfully clear that the MIKE Force relief teams earmarked for Lang Vei were not packed and ready to execute their mission. Where they were and why they were not on standby, as well as why they did not have transportation is unknown to me at this time.
But, it is clear that Maj. Husar had to do some quick recruiting. He snatched everybody and anybody within arm’s reach. He had Chinese Nungs, Rhade Montagnards, Viet Cong Chieu Hoi, a couple of Australians, and four Americans including himself. He managed to assemble a total of 150 men, which he loaded into trucks and headed for the airfield. The mixed bag of armed ethnic troops with different uniforms posed a problem. Because they were not pre-vetted, they had a hard time getting entrance into the airbase so that they could board a C-130 that was supposed to head directly to Khe Sanh. Due to a combination of poor planning and execution along with not having the MIKE Force team on standby, the MIKE Force relief company never made it to Lang Vei. They ended up returning to DA Nang that evening.
At approx. three in the morning Capt Willoughby (USA) called Jacksonville at Khe Sanh asking them to place an artillery barrage directly on his position, as well as asking the marines to execute the rescue orders. He was informed that there would be no relief force.
The news of the rescue request and its denial by the marines quickly reached the commander of all Special Forces in Vietnam, Col. Ladd (USA). Col. Ladd called Saigon immediately, and spoke directly to the commander of all US forces in Vietnam – Gen. Westmoreland (USA).
Gen. Westmoreland told Col. Ladd that he was not going to overrule Col. Lowends (USMC) decision.
Col. Ladd called Gen. Westmorland a second time around 4 am and requested to mount his own rescue mission. He was turned down.
That same day Col. Ladd flew to DA Nang to meet with Gen. Westmorland, who had flown there from Saigon. Col. Ladd spoke with Westmorland for the third time about the Lang Vei relief effort. The answer that Col. Ladd received did not please him.
Col. Ladd, who by this time was very frustrated contacted Gen. Abrams (USA). He told Abrams that he was not getting any action from Gen. Westmorland. Gen. Abrams called Gen. Anderson (USMC) who was the commanding officer of the 1st Marine Air Wing.
Gen. Anderson provided the CH-46 helicopters that would fly in the relief force and fly out the survivors and the covering force.
Gen. Westmorland insists (in writing) that he was the one that made the decision to send in the marine helicopters.
So, it turns out that the army MIKE force teams that were not engaged with the enemy had the duty to support and defend the SF camp at Lang Vei.
When they blew their responsibility they tried to pass it off to the Marines who were heavily engaged with the enemy and low on ammunition because the ammo dump was destroyed. Also, the airfield runway was heavily damaged and helicopters and C-130’s were burning on the runway.
As far as the Devil Dog statement goes. You are correct.
If the Germans ever referred to the Marines as Devil Dogs it cannot be proven. The closet thing that can be found in the records come from a German Lieutenant of the 40th Infantry opposing the 5th Marines in Belleau Wood. In his diary on June 10th he states that “They fight like devils”
The Germans also classified the Marines as a “shock unit.” Which was considered the best units in the German Army.
They also moved their best units in front of the Marine line.
Marines can’t handle being told to stop theft.
LOL…the Marines just handed over their weapons and surrendered the U.S. Consulate in Sanaa Yemen…without even firing a fucking shot. Semper Fi my ASS
EVERYONE KNOW GAS BOY IS FULL OF HOT/gas lying shit the asshole scumbag that he is!! Pussy marines gave up as usual when confronted with REAL resistance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They would not last 1 NY second in REAL combat as prove through the USMC pathetic & false history!!!!!
You are the prime example of the majority of posters on this site. You are not high enough up the food chain to know what is going on or to have the full story. Thus, you take a little bit of information and jump to incorrect conclusions.
The US State Department/Ambassador has authority over the military embassy guards.
The chief of mission (COM) (commonly the ambassador) is the principal officer in charge of a diplomatic facility of the United States.
US Marines at the Embassy are under Chief of Mission Authority, so the Ambassador is in effect their commanding officer. Everyone assigned to the embassy has to follow his orders.
Chief of Mission is under the authority of the Department of State who is under White House influence.
Before the development of modern communications, ambassadors were entrusted with extensive powers; they have since been humbled to spokespeople for their foreign offices.
So, it is safe to assume that the Ambassador contacted the current Secretary of State Kerry. Who then more than likely conferred with the President of the United States and came up with what they deemed the best course of action.
The Marines were obligated to follow lawful orders.
Semper Fi means always faithful or to be more accurate – Always Loyal. The Marine Corps has this motto because the Marine Corps has always followed orders and never mutinied/Refused to obey orders of a person in authority.
The army on the other hand had three mutinies during the revolutionary war.
I was supportive of your perspective on the Yemen debacle until you started to throw stones at the Army and exemplify those you characterize as not knowing enough.
The Army may have had three attempted mutinies almost 240 years ago during the revolutionary war (there have been as many limited examples of Marines disregarding orders e.g. in ’91 http://articles.latimes.com/1991-01-17/local/me-79_1_camp-pendleton).
But only 40 years ago the Corps rebelled against their commander in chief, the detested Truman who wanted to downsize the Corps organizing an undergound campaign to assure their enlarged role and secure as Eisenhower observed, the only branch insecure enough to require a law establishing its size.
“Always Faithful” means supporting decisions you don’t agree with and even are bad for you.
The Army has never tried to undermine the President, Constitutional Commander in Chief…
There are ways to defend oneself without slandering another branch but that’s your style which is one of the core and sadly accurate themes of this whole thread…
Hence my quip Majrod, hence my quip.
Just trying, probably vainly, to example so many obviously marines’ immature and simplistic comments taking incidents and quotations out of all context to fit their own twisted narrative. And of course, attacking American military men and women every chance they get in the process.
Semper Fi my ass!
LOL That was funny about the Army building forts. I swear all of you veterans out there crack me up with all of this military rivalry stuff. To this former Marine you people sound like a bunch of school girls complaining about who is selling more girl scout cookies than the other. Keep up the funny stuff!
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I’ve known so many army and Marine Corp Combat Vets. All branch’s have given their life for The Country and you talk trash? What is wrong with you?
Many of my family have served in The Marine Corp,Air Force and Army. They all offered their life for This Country and you feel only your army is worth anything? Clearly I don’t understand. They have willingly faced death for all,so the others could have a life and wouldn’t know what real horror is.
None are the same after but they would do such again. Because they don’t wear the same uniform means to you they are a lesser person?
Wake-up.
I’m ashamed of you and the small minded trash you talk.
The Fall of Khe Sanh Village
Almost simultaneously with the attack on the main base at Khe Sanh, the North Vietnamese launched an assault against the Regional Force troops and Combined Action units in the Khe Sanh Village about 3,000 meters to the South. Early on the morning of the 21st, under cover of fog, elements of the 66th Regiment, 304th North Vietnamese Division struck the Huong Hoa District headquarters in the village compound.
The mixed group of defenders included two platoons of the 915th Regional Force Company, the small four-man US Army advisory group headed by Army Captain B. G. Clarke, and two Combined Action Platoons of Combined Action Company “Oscar,” commanded by Marine First Lieutenant Thomas B. Stamper. The total strength of the allied force consisted of approximately 175 soldiers and Marines. Combined Action Platoon Oscar–1 composed of 10 Marines and 1 Navy Corpsman, headed by Sergeant John J. Balanco (USMC), and about an equal number of Bru tribesmen, was in the headquarters hamlet.
The second Combined Action Platoon, Oscar–2, led by Sergeant Roy Harper (USMC), at about the same strength, was in a nearby hamlet about 200 yards to the west.
With Captain Clarke and Lieutenant Stamper coordinating artillery and the air support from the headquarters command bunker, CAP 0–1 and the RF troops stood off the initial attacks in fierce fighting. While eventually forced to give up most of the hamlet, the two units established a final defensive perimeter in the headquarters compound.
CAP 0–2 also managed for that first day to stave off the NVA in their sector.
As the fog lifted about midday on the 21st, the intensity of the combat slackened somewhat. While the North Vietnamese continued to place pressure upon the defenders with mortar and RPG bombardments, they limited their infantry action to small arms fire and probes.
Helicopters attempted to resupply the embattled headquarters compound, but could not land. According to Sergeant Balanco, the crews managed, however, to kick out some much-needed ammunition.
Two relief expeditions also failed in their attempts. In the first, the 1st Battalion, 26th Marines from the Khe Sanh base sent out a platoon from Company D to the village. The platoon reached Hill 476 overlooking Khe Sanh Village and could see North Vietnamese troops deploying.
Receiving new orders that the relief mission was going to be executed by the army, the platoon returned to base.
The second expedition was a disaster. The US Army 282d Assault Helicopter Company attempted to bring in that evening the South Vietnamese 256th Regional Force Company from Quang Tri City.
Unfortunately, in a series of mishaps and misunderstandings, the aircraft came down in a landing zone near the abandoned French Fort, 2,000 meters east of Khe Sanh, the former home of FOB–3, and now a North Vietnamese stronghold.
It was a near slaughter: The North Vietnamese killed over 25 of the American pilots and crew and 70 or more of the RF troops. Among the dead was the expedition leader, US Army Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Seymoe, the deputy advisor for Quang Tri Province. The failed expedition “in terms of proportionate casualties and equipment losses would be the worst military debacle of the entire campaign at Khe Sanh.
During the night of 21–22 January in Khe Sanh village, the situation remained tense, but relatively quiet, except for some enemy sniper fire.
During this time, the Marines and surviving Bru of CAP 0–2 to the west, fought their way to the headquarters compound. The Marines sustained several wounded but no dead.
Former Navy Corpsman John R. Roberts, who served with CAP 0—2, recalled that Sergeant Harper, although severely wounded, continued to coordinate the defense. Roberts wrote that most of the other
Marines in the CAP were also wounded. Despite their injuries, the CAP—2 Marines decided that the only choice they had was to break out and attempt to reach CAP—1 in the headquarters compound, which they successfully did.
On the morning of the 22d, Sergeant Balanco, who was later awarded the Silver Star for his part in the fight, led a patrol towards the Old French Fort, hoping to find survivors of the aborted relief mission.
At the bottom of the hill upon which the fort was situated, Balanco turned back, fearing he was being set up for an ambush after seeing some Vietnamese in strange uniforms.
During the late morning of 22 January, according to Lownds, upon Stampler’s recommendation and after “long consideration and proper evaluation of the facts,” he decided to evacuate the units.
The resulting evacuation took place under chaotic conditions, including the North Vietnamese shelling.
According to Balanco, “No R.F.’s or Bru with their ‘weapons’ would be allowed on the helicopters to return to the combat base.” He recalled that six helicopter evacuation missions flew out of the village that day.
As the first helicopters took off, a group of frightened Vietnamese civilians rushed to board the aircraft. Balanco fired a few M—70 rounds in the opposite direction, causing them to hold back so that the wounded could be taken out first.
The helicopters took out all of the American wounded, including two US Army sergeants from the Advisory Group. Captain Clarke also had received orders from Robert Brewer, the Senior Quang Tri Province Advisor, to evacuate the headquarters.
Clarke and one of his advisory sergeants declined to board the helicopters. They led the remnants of the 195th RF Company and several of the Bru safely to the FOB—3 compound along a secret trail.
Sergeant Balanco departed on the last helicopter to leave the headquarters compound. Just before he boarded the aircraft, two civilian Bru approached him carrying a severely burned man and asked the Marine to take him on board. At the same time, the pilot was shouting: “No one except Americans could go on the LAST CHOPPER OUT, and he was departing RIGHT NOW! ” Taking out his pistol and thinking to put the wounded man out of his misery, Balanco suddenly changed his mind. He returned the gun to his holster and “screamed for everyone to move back,” and got him on that last chopper out.
After arriving at Khe Sanh – The Marines of Combined Action
Company Oscar, including CAP—3, which also evacuated its hamlet located north of the headquarters, joined the RF troops and the Popular Forces Bru at the southern edge of the FOB—3 compound.
Wife, writing to a German POW in WW1. This man was captured by the British.
It’s already been two years since you were here last and mother nature needs to fulfill her urges again. As you can’t come and see me, I am forced to go looking elsewhere. Don’t think I am joking; I am serious. I don’t care what you think of me, but you can’t expect me to waste my youth like this, after all I’m not made of wood. And what a person needs, a person must get.
Please do not be cross with me, will you.
Your ever loving, Thelma
Your sweet children send you lot’s of love.
It’s like an insurance card that the cour orders you to carry to verify
thqt when a high-risk driver is behind the wheel, they’re insured to be behind the
wheel. A standard first offense DUI offender should expect
to pay between 3 and 5 times ass much per month for their SR22 insurance as they were
paying on their regular auto inxurance rates.
The SR22 insurance derives its name frim the form of the policy.
EVERYONE KNOW GAS BOY IS FULL OF HOT/gas lying shit at That the asshole scumbag that he is!! Pussy marines gave up as usual when confronted with REAL resistance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They would not last 1 NY second in REAL combat as prove through the USMC pathetic & false history!!!!!
This PROUD NAVY VET will not take 1 second of your stupid evil shitT! iS THAT CLEAR EVIL SHIT US MARINE BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!
As a former Marine I would just like to say to all of you who go on this website to put down our military: FUCK YOU!! I can tell most of you fucking Maggots who come onto this site have never served a day in the military. I can tell by your numerous uneducated comments and lack of knowledge on American military history. Just a bunch of civilian pukes who have nothing better to do except create trouble. This is why I don’t fight for you fucking slimy civilians. Only my fellow Marines and other brave men and women who serve in the other branches are the ones I would put my life in harms way for.
Pride and confidence can be a power thing, it can provide a mental edge that makes difference especially in the extremes of combat. This, however, appears to be one of the most idiotic and small minded discussions that I have read. Spending time and energy comparing yourself to others speaks volumes about one’s character (not in a good way). That kind of passion and aggressiveness is better applied towards doing your job or helping your family. This family would include helping your brothers and sisters who walked the sand came back with broken bodies and spirits. Grow up, get your head straight, and get back to focusing on the purpose for your service in the first place. Part of that purpose is looking after the man or woman to your left and to your right. God help me if I ever turned my back on a vet, regardless of the uniform, regardless of the conflict.
If you are a member of the armed forces, try not to forget that we are all peices on the chess board. Many of us are alive today simply because there were others there to take the hit. We only have one life to give whether you’re a HMMWV driver or a SOF solidier; the body bag weighs pretty much the same.
This entire article is sad and leaves out so many facts it can be considered to be untrue. Lets begin with the law: Congress mandated the USMC only have three (3) ready divisions and one reserve division. Thus when WWII broke out it was decided to build all 4 Marine divisions to fighting strength, add their air wing and armor to those divisions and send them to the Pacific. It wasn’t until the battle for Iwo Jima, congress authorized the 5th Marine Division. Then to take Okinawa, the 6th Marine Division was authorized. Okinawa was the last battle of WWII and also was the largest landing force in the world up to that time and that record has never been broken. Now the US Army, as the United States main fighting force ended the war with 72 divisions placing them in every theater of war. To compare the Marine Corps strength abilities and number of landings, enemy killed/wounded, etc. is not only a false premise but wholly ignorant statement made my an author with an agenda.
Advise fact check E Co 2/26 3rd Mar Div Beach Landed as a component of the 9th MAB from the USS Princeton LPH 1967-68 and the Walworth County I was an 0341 L/Col 3rd Platoon I was subsequently WIA “Mudders Ridge” 16 Sep 68. Oh yeh! I have the newspaper article documenting the event. Semper FiOoo Rah!
USS PRINCETON E Co 2/26 3 rd Mar Div landed on beach while assigned to 9 th MAB 1968 I was there I have newspaper article.
Message to Cpl Seaman and all other Marines who made the mistake of coming on to this website. I am a former Marine myself and I can tell you this is one of the worst sites that anybody who has ever served could be on. Get off the site ASAP. This site is run by fucking civilians who have never served a day in the military but at the same time like to bash our military. These people that come on here are the worst type of Americans there is in this country and they are not worthy of defending against our enemies now or in the future. Semper Fi to anyone who has served our country no matter what the branch was.
HaHa…right Mike, 0311…and all you marines, get off this site ASAP. This site is exposing all those lies the Marine Corps has been spewing the past 70 years. Save yourselves, and Get Off This Site Now!
The biggest weekend however will be the closing
for March 27. Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Lawrence’s third collaboration “Serena” will close the month.
LOL, Marine can’t handle the truth.
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.
Your obsession with Marine superiority is amazing.
During my time in the Corps I had the opportunity to be stationed with some soldiers. I was not impressed.
You need to take care of yourself though before your obsession descends into madness.
THE ENeMY is not impressed with you and that is plainly why you in the USMC get your asses kicked all over the world. Look up An Najaf, Nazarriah, Umm Qussar, Fallujah etc. Your penis is way too small and limp as it shows your inferiority complex writ large.
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encourage continue your great posts, have a nice holiday
weekend!
I’ve never been a soilder or a marine so I don’t have a dog in this fight. However, I am a military historian and I feel strongly about certain great qualities possessed by both branches. First of all the army tends to have the edge in technology and usually gets the cutting edge equipment first and that has been true since WW II. That one simple fact cuts both ways, while the army is playing with their new toys the marines are learning to do more with less.
If I had to serve in combat and had a choice I would prefer to serve with the marines for a variety of reasons. Soilders can argue this point until the proverbial cows come home but marines are better with their rifles and other squad level weapons. Not just better marksmen but they keep their weapons clean and ready for action at a moments notice. That’s from the front line grunts to the cooks, truck drivers, and mechanics in the rear.
A good example of this showed up in the first few days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. While crossing the desert in a well gaurded convoy with Abrams Tanks, Bradlys, etc. During a major dust storm part of the convoy made a wrong turn and left the protection of the armor and infantry. This was a small group of mechanics driving humvees and large supply trucks. After getting off course they encountered a small, hostile enemy force and came under attack. Even though the U.S.soilders actually outnumbered the enemy they were unable to put up even a token resistance even though they were taking casualties. They finally surrendered and a young woman was taken prisoner and her name was Jessica Lynch.
Shortly thereafter a daring rescue by special forces succeeded and Miss Lynch was recovered. So why did a small outnumberd enemy force completely overwhelm the lost convoy? According to U.S. Army spokespersons: their weapons were jamming from excess dust and lack of cleaning as well as the lack of experience in field cleaning under combat conditions. THAT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!
Every soilder should be able to field strip and clean their weapon in any and all conditions including under the stress of combat. If that had been a company of marine mechanics I can assure you that they would have had their weapons in working condition and would have made short work of the enemy. The reason is simple: IT’S BECAUSE ALL MARINES ARE RIFLEMEN FIRST!!!!
Rifles are weak, my man as they lack firepower. The US Army is by far the best land force in history because of its massive amounts of armor and artillery firepower. Army leaders are the best in the world too from Washington on down. Read real history and NOT USMC propaganda produced in Quantico, VA.
Plus, 28 time as many Army troops have died for the country when compared with the USMC. Remember to show proportional respect in this manner, too.
Best in the world?!? Man even the most POG officer in the Marine Corps is as good if not better than a pretty good army infantry officer…
So rifles are weak… guess what you’ve probably never been in war, and I can say that regardless of how many bombs, tanks, artillery, or planes you have that is not enough to crush the will of the enemy, up to this point in time we still, and probably for an unforeseeable amount of time will need infantryman with rifles on the ground. Hitler could never take england out because of this, we tried this crap in Vietnam, tried it in Afghan, heck are trying it now in Iraq since we’ve left… crap ain’t getting done!
Also an FYI in case you haven’t been reading or listening to the news women are about to pass Ranger school, had 20 try and only ONE made it past the combat endurance test… rangers utterly and completely overrated.
Joe – You may not want to throw too many stones. Three women may pass ranger school. Over 100 women have passed Marine basic Infantry training…
Orwell did not say that about the Marines he said that about London’s police force.
Some fricken POGUE wrote this article. A CIB soldier and CAR Marine would be drinking by now and looking to lift some skirts of patriotic lasses that want to marry real men.
This guys is so full of crap, how do you compare this:
“General Macarthur’s Army killed, captured, or stranded over a quarter of a million Japanese troops during the New Guinea campaign, at a cost of only 33,000 US casualties. The Navy and Marines suffered over 28,000 casualties to kill roughly 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima.”
This is comparing one battle to an entire campaign… then to add to the jealousy he had to mention that the flag raising was a second picture; are you trying to take away from the fact that the Marines still took Iwo Jima from the Japanese? What about the battle of Tinia, Saipan, etc the list goes on and on.
Did you forget that the Marines were in the Mexican American war, they went all the way into “the Halls of Montezuma.” You’re also totally forgetting the barbery wars.
As far as amphibious landings the Korean War did you forget Inchon?!? And what Chinese sources do you speak of when saying that they had encountered hard army fighting? Don’t forget that Grenada was also an amphibious assault…
I also like how you COMPLETELY forget about Mogadishu in Somalia, and how the Marines had control there, but once the overrated Lamegers took over they had a complete fiasco.
As for Iraq in Desert storm, the Marines were basically that stop wedge taking the blunt of the action while the army goes around on the west having less opposition, because the Marines are basically doing a frontal assault… which they did again in Iraq in 2003; giving them the crap job again that the army doesn’t want (might be revenge for Korea?).
As far as Falluja goes, the army was supposed to build the nation the back, but they failed miserably and needed the Marines to intervene… so much for the army’s prized 82nd lame-born. Everyone knows that Falluja and the Al Anbar province had the bloodiest battles, no other location in Iraq was as violent.
Lastly merging these two entities would still create a sort of special army within the army… I was enlisted with the 3rd BN 13th FA from Ft Sill, and also served as communications officer in the Marines, I can tell you the TTPs that both of these organizations use are not the same; I think if you were to merge these two entities you’d basically have 3-4 Ranger divisions added to the army…. I am sure the actual ranger regiment wouldn’t like this.
You have a point in it’s not appropriate to compare a campaign against a battle as well as the invented controversy of the 2nd flag waving at Iwo but then you race downhill.
The Marines were a very small contingent of the large and primary Army presence in the Mexican American war and the Battle at Chapultapec. One Marine battalion of a 4k man force, part of an Army 12k man amphibious landing. Might as well claim the Marines invaded Normandy and Africa because there were small contingents of Marines at both events. THIS specific phenomena of blowing up achievements that often belong to the Army is what the author correctly writes about.
(FWIW there were 40 Marines in a 120 man mixed Army/Marine detachment that went over the wall. Army officer George Pickett (later famous for “Pickett’s Charge” at Gettysburg) was the first over the wall and was carrying the colors that Marines were credited with raising.)
The Marines weren’t doing “snatch and grab raids” in Somalia. It’s no great feat to suffer zero casualties when one isn’t conducting offensive operations.
You might want to reassess the facts about the Army’s sweeping maneuver in Desert Storm. There were many more and better troops in that area than in Kuwait. Troops that stayed in place and were overwhelmed vs. retreating into what would be called the Highway of Death. We won’t even discuss having to augment the Marines with an Army armored brigade and replacing M60 tanks with M1’s from Army stocks because of the Corps tardy fielding…
While researching Desert Storm do the same for OIF. The Army also conducted a frontal assault to get to Baghdad, first…
The Army provided a third of the assaulting combat power at Falujah and achieved their objectives first even after being slowed down to let the Marines catch up.
BTW, you don’t make the case that Marine officers are better and history would disagree if you want to compare famous officers. One could even argue that an Army artillery enlisted man becoming a Marine officer works against your case.
I don’t think shuttering the Corps is a good idea but your argument might be a lot stronger if you actually read both branches’ history.
Um there was the continental marine they were founded just after the Navy was founded
In response to Blue chord: The army abandoned their own dead and wounded.
Chesty Puller rescued all the army wounded he could find and did not waste valuable time on the dead because he had a short period in which rescue as many wounded as he could before they died of their wounds and or froze to death.
He also had limited resources in personal as he still was fighting the Chinese and could only spare so many men to search for the army wounded as they were scattered over several miles.
“Chesty Puller rescued all the army wounded”
Uh, that’s not anywhere near correct. The Marines sent a very limited effort to save Task Force Faith after it was wiped out by Chinese forces that outnumbered it far beyond what the Marines faced at Chosin. The overwhelming majority of wounded Soldiers saved themselves by making their way to Marine lines.
No Marine unit at Chosin was as undermanned, cutoff, outnumbered or lost as many leaders as Task Force Faith. Their sacrifice protected the Marine right flank and subsequent critical supply diump and airfield. It is likely why so many Distinguished Service Crosses, Silver Stars (more than any of the larger Marine Reg’ts at Chosin) and even the Medal of Honor were awarded as well as official recognition by the Dep’t of the Navy of the unit’s sacrifice by awarding it the its highest unit honor, the Presidential Unit Citation.
It can only be ignorance or blind arrogance that continues to try and disparage the sacrifice of the 31st RCT.
Someone really needs to scream from the roof tops about this – write a book, blog, high profile documentary, or whatever because I’m sick to death of hearing Marine lies about what happened at Chosin. That’s the big problem with Marines; they don’t merely honor their own they try to shit on everything the Army does and dishonors thousands of brave men in the process.
I find it hard to believe your claim that you were an infantry, officer. You seem more like a lawyer or a con man as you are very deft at twisting the facts, as well as falsely claiming that I said something that I never said.
This is what I said: “Chesty Puller rescued all the army wounded he could find.” That is an accurate statement. I was responding to blue chord’s statement that Puller left army dead because they were army. So, it seemed obvious to me that blue chord was aware that Puller sent a rescue party; as you also admitted yourself. Also, I have never disparaged RCT 31’s sacrifice. But, I have stated the facts.
The Marines on the perimeter of Haqaru that night saw handfuls of shoulders stumbling, limping, even crawling. Some were without weapons. Most had lost their equipment. Many were frostbitten. Some of these men were dragging themselves on the ice. Others had gone crazy and were walking in circles.
The Marines hauled sleds out onto the reservoir, for three days from sunup to sunset and brought in all the soldiers they could find, which was over 345 men. Only 385 of the thousand survivors from a force of 2,500 were considered fit to take their place in the line at Haqaru.
Approximately, 1,050 soldiers of the 2,500 survived the ordeal.
Faith had 22 trucks loaded down with hundreds of wounded that were piled two deep in the trucks.
The army soldiers and the drivers of RCT-31 panicked and abandoned the truck convoy without saying a word to the wounded in the back of the trucks, and attempted to escape individually, many crossing onto the ice of the reservoir.
My uncle was there, and he was one of the lucky ones that were rescued by the Marines. He said that the vehicle he was in, stopped, and he heard the driver and A-driver get out of the truck and run off. He happened to be on top of the stacked men and to the rear of the truck. He decided it was best to get out of the truck. So, he dragged himself over the back and dropped to the ground. He then crawled/pulled himself off the road and tried to stay quiet as the Chinese were killing the wounded that remained in the trucks.
He was also bitter that many of his comrades that he called out to for help as they ran by him did not stop and help him. They looked at him and turned away. One survivor came close enough to him that he was able to grab his pants before he asked for help, and the guy jerked away from his grip and ran off.
Many of the armies wounded in the trucks that day; that managed to survive have similar accounts.
The history channel recently had a soldier from RCT-31 that had the same account as my Uncle; except that an unknown soldier ran by the truck he was in and told the wounded in the truck that if they can; they needed to get out of the truck because the Chinese were tossing grenades into the back of the trucks. Then he ran off. Without offering to help anyone get out of the trucks.
Lt. Col. Beall initially organized a relief party originally consisting of himself, a corpsman, and a PFC and went out on the ice in search of survivors. Eventually, he used several vehicles including a Jeep with a sled to rescue Army wounded. When the enemy fire began to hinder the operation, Marine Corsairs napalmed and rocketed the Chinese and provided cover. He went to each truck and verified that all wounded in the stalled convoy were dead and did a body count. On his return, he managed to rescue additional remaining Army wounded, some of whom warned him away due to the proximity of the Chinese.
None of the convoy vehicles made it to safety, and most of the abandoned wounded that remained in the trucks did not survive.
You claim that RCT-31 protected the Marine right flank and subsequent critical supply dump and airfield. How could that happen? RCT 31 was never on any of Hagaru’s flanks. The only military units on Haqaru’s flank were the Chinese.
RCT 31 was located at least 12.5 miles North of Hagaru. At best they were NNE of Hagaru.
I do not know where you get your information from. But it is not accurate. But, you probably already know that and are twisting the facts again. So here is a map for you to look at. Please copy and paste the below information in your search bar and look at the Map from the United States Army Center for Military History.
MAP 8 – Battle of the Changjin Reservoir – 27-29 November 1950
You will see that there is no way that RCT-31 was ever in a position to protect Hagaru’s right flank. It is impossible.
You assert that No Marine unit at Chosin was as undermanned, cutoff, outnumbered or lost as many leaders as Task Force Faith.
Well, US Army Col. T. R.Ferenbach once compared RCT-31 with the under strength Marine Company holding Toktong Pass/Fox Hill. They came off that hill with one officer and before they made it to or shortly after they passed Haqaru they no longer had any officers. They continued to perform well.
You seem to be enamored with medals. So, here are the decorations that this unit received: Three Medals of Honor and at least six Navy crosses. They may have received others, but I do not have the time to check.
RCT-31 lost all the equipment and vehicles of two Infantry Battalions, the 57th Field Artillery Battalion and D Battery 15th AAA AW Battalion were lost in the fighting east of Chosin between November 27 and December 2, 1950. Not a single vehicle, artillery piece, mortar or machine gun of these units was saved.
This debacle is in grim contrast to the withdrawal of the Marine Regiments who successfully fought and broke through, the same enemy, under the same conditions, bringing out most of their equipment and dead, and nearly all their wounded.
You claim RCT-31 was wiped out by Chinese forces that outnumbered it far beyond what the Marines faced at Chosin.
When the Chinese entered the war, the entire UN line of five Army and eight ROK divisions collapsed, with the exception of the Marine division The First Marine Division was the only US unit to survive the Chinese attack intact.
The eighth army was out of the fight, and if my memory serves me correctly, it took them at least four months to get back on their feet as rated combat ready.
RCT-31 was also out of the fight. With the exception of the 385 army soldiers, that joined the Marines as they fought their way out of the trap.
So, where do you think most of those Chinese went to that were not fighting the eighth army and RCT-31 anymore? I will tell you, they were sent to stop the Marines.
Plus the Chinese brought in reinforcements.
I’m hardly a lawyer. It would take a lawyer much longer to tear apart your ill founded positions instead of the succinct scalping I’ve been engaged in.
You can’t send a “relief force” when there’s no one to relieve. Even a new 2LT could tell you that.
Comparing a company to a Reg’t is a ridiculous comparison and only made by someone with no understanding of scale. You are comparing a hundred or so men to over 2000. That’s scales of magnitude. Even the esteemed Fehrenbach did not compare Fox company’s experience across the board to the 31st RCT. You only cited officer leadership. One can keep a company together with only NCO’s. You can’t do that with a BN or Reg’t especially when those BN’s and Reg’t have been stripped of their senior NCO’s due to casualties like the 31st RCT was. It is not me twisting facts.
The reservoir physically separated the 31st RCT from the Marines. That area East of the reservoir was the right flank. You don’t have to be physically linked to a unit to be on its flank. Had the 31st RCT not been there and fought for days the Marines at the south of the reservoir would have had to face the divisions the 31st RCT destroyed. As it was they had a tough time. Add the multiple divisions the 31st RCT decimated to the equation and the end result would have been clear. It’s very simple.
I suggest you read Applegate’s book “East of Chosin” on the 31st RCT to understand why no vehicles made it out of the 31st RCT. He does a very good job of explaining the winding road conditions, destroyed bridges, lack of engineer support and the numerous obstacles (including the Chosin) that kept any vehicles from escaping the noose as well as the Chinese obsession with destroying equipment.
Further, the Marines had armor to force roadblocks. In fact a tank company was supposed to go to TF Faith but was ordered to stay with the Marines (by the Marines) instead trying to break through to TF Faith. In any case, no Marine unit was destroyed in detail (look the term up), suffered so many casualties that it was no longer able to defend itself, cut off from other units like 31st RCT was. Not ONE of the three Marine Reg’ts fought in anywhere near the conditions the 31st RCT did.
BTW, the Marines left men behind on numerous occasions. (e.g.Makin Island, Mayaguez etc.) I just have an understanding of combat and greater degree of respect for my fellow servicemen to accuse them of cowardice than someone who has never worn the uniform…
Excerpts from Gen. Schwarzkopf’s comments to the press:
“The allied Strategy was, in part, to make Iraq think the brunt of the attack would come along the Kuwaiti shoreline and Kuwait’s border with Saudi Arabia while preparing allied forces for a massive armored flanking move well west of Kuwait.”
“To deceive the Iraqis and pin down their forces in Kuwait, United States Marines conspicuously prepared for an amphibious landing along the Kuwait coast, conducting highly publicized exercises with ominous names like “Imminent Thunder.”
“The threat of a US Marine amphibious assault was an effective deception in the gulf as Iraqi forces remained deployed to counter an attack from the sea that never came.” [ This shows that amphibious assaults are still relevant ]
Meanwhile, the allies sought to convince President Saddam Hussein of Iraq that an important land assault would be launched against Iraq’s most heavily defended areas along the Saudi border.
To do this, the allies sought to persuade Iraq that most of the Allied ground forces were still concentrated in eastern Saudi Arabia, where all of the American Army and Marine troops had initially been deployed during the military buildup in the summer and fall.
“When we knew he couldn’t see us anymore, we did a massive movement of troops all the way out to the West, to the extreme west,” General Schwarzkopf said.
“In essence, that’s what we did,” the general added, referring to the movement of American, French and British to Western Saudi Arabia so that they would be in position to carry out their flanking maneuvers deep into Iraq to cut off the Republican Guard.”
“We went west and north into an empty area of Iraq, again remaining undiscovered.”
“We did a left-hook” attack across southern Iraq’s largely undefended desert.”
The Strategy: To rivet the Iraqis’ attention on the assault in Kuwait while establishing a left flank deep in Iraqi territory. That would allow allied troops to move through areas with little to no opposition to positions behind the dug-in Iraqis.
“The Iraqis, fixated on the military mirage, left their western flank all but undefended. “Because of our deception plan and the way it worked.”
The above comments from Gen. Schwarzkopf make it very clear that the armies left flank maneuver was not heavily contested.
As for the Marines: They attacked into the bulk of the Iraqi forces.
The Marines confronted the main force of eighteen Iraqi divisions behind a double minefield barrier that extended the width of southern Kuwait.
Gen. Schwarzkopf’s left hook by two Army corps a hundred miles farther to the west would provide flanking envelopment to cut off the remainder of the retreating Iraqi forces.
The British 1st Armored Division asked to be removed from I MEF, because they wanted to participate in the flanking movement and Gen. Schwarzkopf approved it. To make up for this loss of armor, primarily since most Marine tank battalions were still using M60s, Schwarzkopf assigned the Army Tiger Brigade of Abrams M1A1 tanks to complement the Marines Organized Reserve tank company of 13 M1A1s.
Directly ahead of both Marine Divisions, some seven miles inside Kuwait, Iraqis had placed two deep lines of minefield barriers. Both divisions would have to penetrate these dangerous obstacles before confronting the forty-four Iraqi divisions behind them.
The double breaches were accomplished swiftly and efficiently, taking both the defending Iraqis and Gen. Schwarzkopf’s headquarters totally by surprise – so much so that the jump – off of the two left-flank Army Corps had to be advanced, lest the Marines get too far ahead of the Army and leave their west flank vulnerable.
The armies plan called for the Marine forces to be hung up in the Iraqi fortifications for 18 to 24 hours, and maybe longer. But the reality was that the Marines busted through the Iraqi fortifications and accomplished in a few hours, what was expected to take days.
The VII Army Corps took three days to make its end run over the desert, only to arrive and engage the retreating forces in southern Iraq in short, wrap-up firefights on the final day.
The airlifted XVIII Army Corps on the extreme western flank also arrived on the third day, to catch what was left of the retreating Iraqi Republican Guard divisions near the Euphrates River on the road back to Baghdad.
The Marine units, however, despite being only a “holding force,” advanced in constant combat for the entire four days, and liberated Kuwait.
There’s a difference between a plan and its execution. Using your logic Omaha beach was a cakewalk because the plan was to suppress and destroy the defenders before the troops supported by floating tanks. History tells a very different story.
The VII Corps was actually engaged in quite a bit of fighting as it took on the elite Republican Guard, the only Iraqi units that offered any real resistance. Theyy were also the Iraqi’s center of gravity and the key objective according to Stormin’ Norman), a first rate unit Marines did not face. (BTW I was with the lead BN of the 3AD and we were in contact for three days straight.). Marines did a great job in Desert Storm but as history and Schwartzkopf plan states, they were the supporting effort and a third of their on the ground combat power was supplied by an Army BDE.
I suggest you read CORRECTING MYTHS ABOUT THE PERSIAN GULF WAR: THE LAST STAND OF THE TAWAKALNA By Stephen A. Bourque http://crrc.dodlive.mil/files/2015/04/SH-MISC-D-001-917_TF.pdf for a pretty good synopsis of some of the fighting out in the Desert away from embedded reporters and Marine propagandists. Scales book, Certain Victory provides a pretty unbiased telling of the war as well as the book “Jayhawk”..
As to intensity of combat, there were 98 Army KIA to 24 Marines. Subtracting 28 soldiers killed in a Scud attack and 12 Marines killed in Khafji, there were 70 Soldiers to 12 Marines killed in the “100 hours”. A pretty lopsided break down considering the density of forces and a solid indicator of who faced more resistance.
I spent 28 years serving in the Army, Infantry, Long Range Reconnaissance and Surveillance, Rangers and Special Forces. I fought in the Gulf War, Somalia (including Battle of Mogadishu), and Afghanistan. During those deployments and joint Marine/Army training exercises; I’ve worker with and commanded Marines. The terminology is usually a problem, but I found the Marines reliable battle partners I could count on to execute the mission. The only thing that bother me about my Marine attachments were the leadership. They turned it into a contest between Army/Marine instead of focusing on the threat, the terrain and tactical options.
If I had my druthers, I would create an American Defense Forces with only five component Branches: Combined Land Component Command, Combined Air Component Command, Combined Naval Command, Combined Logistics Command and Combined Health Services Command..
This would standardize training, equipment and tactics for all three components. Units and specialties would be tailored to the mission. Think about it instead many Transport, Recovery, Jet and Bomber aircraft with different variants for each service, we could build common airframes that would be fielded to the combatant commands. Fleet costs would greatly decrease and support/maintenance would be smaller and more efficient. The Navy would get all the Army’s boats and their ships (not rubber rafts). Again standardize the types of crafts that can be interchangeable and save money. The Land Forces would do this too, same weapons and communications throughout the Military, no duplicate programs, etc..
It cuts down on the number of higher headquarters, but last I checked the military was supposed to be highly efficient, cohesive, joint, lean and not a place to provide more and more officer jobs or to create additional command opportunities.
One Team-One Fight
The thing that pisses me off about the Marines is they steal credit from the Army and then try to p!ss on everything the Army does. This goes beyond ‘brotherly’ branch rivalry and dishonors hundreds of thousands of men who get completely overshadowed because their “brothers” in a sister service are prima donnas who are so insecure of their worth they need to hog the spotlight.
Marines are taught bullshit in MCRD, some Marines learn it later in life throughout their careers and after they get out, but some stay motards for life.
They claim they’re FIRST TO FIGHT when very rarely, they are.. even if you discount CIA/SOCOM operations, and just factor in the ‘conventional’ ground forces, the Army has beaten them to most wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, WWI, WWII Pacific. The 3rd Marine Division arrived the same day as the 173rd Airborne in Vietnam on 3rd May 1965.
BELLEAU WOOD, WWI
75%+ Army soldiers… Nuff said.
GRENADA
The Marines did the square root of jack SHIT in Grenada.
The 82nd Airborne Division, 75th Ranger Regiment and Navy SEALs (who decided an amphibious op with landing craft would be pointless due to adverse weather) saved the day.
EUROPEAN/NORTH AFRICAN THEATER, WWII
100% U.S. Army (as far as American ground forces go). The Army carried out five large amphibious assaults, including the largest in history without a single Marine present. HOWEVER, to give credit where credit is due, a small number Marines did serve in Europe in an advisory role and drafted the doctrine which was the basis for most Allied amphibious assaults in WWII after studying the Gallipoli Campaign failure by Allied forces in WWI. However not a single “Jarhead” spilled blood in the campaign against the Germans who were vastly superior to the Japanese.
ASIAN/PACIFIC THEATER, WWII
35% of the U.S. Army was devoted to the PTO, and the total Army strength in the Pacific was six times the size of the ENTIRE USMC, who were all devoted to the Pacific, in WWII. It was the U.S. Army that defeated 80% of the Japs in the Philippines and New Guinea. The Army saved the Marines *** in Guadalcanal, and the Army had four divisions in the Battle of Okinawa while the USMC had two. The Army fought in Burma, Saipan, Peleliu and Tinian as well.
The Marines island hopping campaign was a bloody sideshow. While I’d never downplay what the Marines did in Iwo Jima and Tarawa and the horrifying amount of casualties they took, they were pointless battles that captured islands that were useless at any strategic level.
Oh ya, the Army was fighting in the Pacific before the Marines.
The 32nd Infantry Division landed in the Philippines in May 1942, the Marines landed on Guadalcanal in August 1942.. do the math.
Ask your average Motard Marine or American who believes everything he watches in Hollywood.. and they’ll say it was like 90% Marines.
Army were just the “clean up crew” in the Pacific.. so 26+ Army divisions were there to clean up after 6 Marine divisions? LMAO. No.
CHOSIN RESERVOIR, KOREAN WAR
Task Force Faith was MUCH smaller and managed to inflict thousands of casualties on the Chinese before being defeated.
They’re just as brave as the Chosin Marines who benefited from allied air support. Anyone who parrots the lies about the Army acting like pussies in chosin should eat shit and die.
VIETNAM
Army did most of the heavy fighting and did most of the worst battles, not Marines.
Let’s face it, the U.S. Army exists for fighting and winning the war.
The USMC exists to look good. They flaunt their Dress Blues (originally an Army uniform lol). Marines are there for the photo op.
There’s no need for the USMC, at least not in their current bloated pseudo-expeditionary form with 3 divisions and their own huge air wing that puts most air forces around the world to shame, when the Navy has an air wing that could and SHOULD provide close air support for Marine operations. The Marines have no need for the numerous POG MOS fields – engineering, admin, water dogs, supply, etc when the logistical train could be handled by the Navy.
All USMC MOS fields should be combat ones, e.g. 03XX
This should cut the numbers of Marines down to no more than 100k, realistically around 80,000. Perfect for expeditionary endeavors such as storming beachheads or taking islands or whatever, and with a smaller force, means standards can rise. Marines swear superiority to the Army, but an 0311 Marine is no better than an 11B Army soldier in terms of quality or diversity of training. Actually, the Army Infantry has outpaced the Marines in areas such as COIN warfare etc (despite lies written on here to the contrary, read up on Army doctrine).
Under a far less bloated structure and where the Marines aren’t like a mini army and mini air force jammed into one structure pretending to be expeditionary and agile because they float about with the Navy, the title of ‘Marine’ could become something exclusive, demanding higher PT and GT/ASVAB scores.
MCRD doesn’t weed shitbirds out, it forces them through, little different even today like how Pyle is forced through MCRD by R Lee Ermey’s character in Full Metal Jacket which helped make MCRD famous to the public. No elite force forces unwilling and unworthy recruits through their program. Do you ever hear of the Navy SEALs, Special Forces or the 75th forcing shitbirds through BUD/S or SFQC or RASP/Ranger School to meet quotas unlike the USMC who forces people through MCRD + SOI. Marine POGs are the WORST POGs because they have been told lies like they’re superior and on part with Army 11Bs.. LOL..
Army POGs know they’re POGs.. they don’t pretend to be “riflemen” because they did a few extra weeks of camping, er, i mean “infantry training” at SOI and qualify on the range once a year (despite the fact they’ll in most cases NEVER fire a rifle outside of that)… Army POGs have enough training to defend their quarter, they don’t need more or lies about how they’re grunts.
The USMC should be like a larger version of the Brit Royal Marines, but they won’t give up the bureaucracy. Just continue to lie and steal achievements from the U.S. Army as they’ve done for the last 100 years.
This shit your spouting is probably shit you heard from your fellow Army POGS to make yourself feel better about being a bitch. Speaking of Motards.. look in a mirror.
The posts about Okinawa fail to recognize that the two Marine Divisions on Okinawa did the majority of the fighting because the Army was, well the Army. And no, the Marines didn’t land in the Philippines or New Guinea. Furthermore, Guadalcanal was won when the Army occupied. Get an education.
Really? The Marines were left on Guadalcanal by the Navy defeat and forced into guerrilla warfare for months without supplies including ammo, water, food, etc. and still held the island and defeated most of the Japanese while the fully supplied and rested army came in later to take out the remaining forces. At Peleliu the Marines did most of the heavy lifting and were also under supplied, starving, and had no water. Fought tooth in nail with Japanese for weeks in horrible terrain and the army showed up fully supplied and rested to wipe out a nearly destroyed Japanese force. 35% of the Army in WWII was in the Pacific during WWII, but the Marine Corps infantry did the heavy lifting. Okinawa was a mainly an army effort and marines had to come in for support.
THE FIRST GROUND unit in Vietnam was a Marine unit. 1st Battalion/3rd Marines landed in ’65 and from then on it became a mainly army show because well the army is massive. The Marines held out at Khe Sahn for weeks while being surrounded, retook the city of hue, and were the main resistance force in the tet offensive.
Sorry, but marine infantry is superior to any army conventional combat force. They do everything the 10th mountain, air cav, army infantry, etc. do without all the stupid terrain or specialized job titles. The Airborne screwed up the only true mission it has had in history, which was called DDay. The airborne portion of the campaign was a disaster from the first day and was well known in its miss drops and failed missions throughout France. Airborne is a pointless job specification at this point and do what marine infantry do, but less effectively and efficientally.
Typical response from a crap-hat. And this is a response from a Brit. You haven’t heard of Band of Brothers or Pegasus Bridge have you? You know what happened to a bunch of marine leg crap-hats who slagged off the Paras in Aldershot? They lost the fight. Get over yourself, without the US Army you would be nothing. But your lot are not humble.
MAJROD
There is an apparent difference between disobeying orders and mutinies. Disobeying an order does not necessarily equal a mutiny. When I stated that the Marine Corps never refused to obey orders, it was solely in the context of the subject of mutinies. A simple refusal to obey orders does not equal a mutiny.
Also, I am sure that you are aware that the Army had many other mutinies after the Revolutionary war that resulted in death for the guilty.
You know that you do not have to follow an illegal order. President Truman did not have the authority to order unification, and he stated so when a reporter asked him about the directive he was writing to the Army and the Navy. The reporter asked President Truman if he was going to do it without legislation, and Truman said, and I quote “Oh no oh – no. I can’t do it without legislation.”
As US Army Col. T. R. Fehrenbach states below:
“Under the Constitution of the United States, Congress holds the power of life and death over the military, and no one would have it otherwise. History has shown very clearly that for democracy to continue, the people, and not the generals or even the executive authority, must have control over the military.”
Congress has the power to decide these matters and pass legislation as it determines, and no one (including the President) has the authority to ask or order someone to lie to Congress when they are queried about their opinion or stance on a particular subject.
Nor does he have the power to exclude or bar individuals or organizations from the process. Especially when you are kept in the dark as the Marine Corps was.
The President and certain army officers tried to subvert the Democratic process. While the Marine Corps fought to defend the Democratic process and save the Marine Corps along the way.
Initially, the Marine Corps was not informed of the unification plan; the Army and Navy were the only ones that officially knew about it. Because that is the way, the President, and the Army wanted it.
Congress forced the President and the Army to release the unification plan to the Marine Corps that the Army proposed to Congress (more on this as you read on)
So, how could the Marine Corps rebel against the Commander in Chief when they were never given a lawful order?
How could they support a decision that they officially had no knowledge of?
How could they undermine the Commander in Chief when it is Congress’s duty to pass legislation?
The President and the Army tried their best hoodwink Congress and to pass the unification plan through Congress before the Corps found out about it, and under the guise that all the services knew about it.
Truman and the army threatened the navy with losing their naval aircraft. They wanted to put Air Force planes on the navies aircraft carriers. They also promised the navy that they would be able to keep their naval aircraft under their control if they supported the armies efforts in reducing or eliminating the Corps. The Navy initially went along with the plan until by accident they found out that the army secretly reneged on their promise to the Navy. The Navy then threw their support to the Marine Corps and testified on behalf of the Marine Corps.
So, when the Marines accidentally found out about the unification proposal they assumed it was legit but were not entirely sure as the Army officers that spoke about it were drunk. However, if it was legit, they wanted to be prepared and concluded that they needed to be proactive and attempted to come up with possible solutions for different unification contingencies.
Things may have turned out in the President’s and the Army’s favor if either one of them would have had the guts to inform the Marine Corps and let the Democratic process proceed as it was designed to work.
Surely, few military secrets were as firmly held. The Marine Corps was not allowed access to the unification papers and were kept in the dark.
In 1943, the Army was lobbying Congress members to support the unification plan and had a majority of them on their side. In 1944, House committee hearings began on the question of unification driven by Army leadership and Vice President Truman.
In April 1945, while Americans were dying on Okinawa, the US House of Representatives, pushed by Army leadership, started holding hearings on postwar unification plans. President Roosevelt ordered the hearings stopped.
The Marine Corps found out about the unification plan by accident.
Colonel Twining (USMC) went to visit his brother General Twining (USA), a number of the Army’s senior officers (all Generals) gathered to drink (no doubt relaxed by liquor) and talk of Army plans for the postwar reorganization of the American military.
Before the evening was over, Colonel Twining (USMC) listened to his brother; General Twining (USA) bitterly attack the Marines, declaring, “We will run the rest of the war so that people will forget there ever was a Marine on Guadalcanal.”
He announced that after the war, the Army would restructure the US military, and in the new order there would be no place for the Marines.
The Chowder Society was the nickname for the group of Marines that were striving to counter the Army’s effort to disband the Marine Corps. They got the name because of a comic strip of the day called Barnaby.
The main character was a small, cherubic, and always getting into trouble, and he bore an uncanny resemblance to Krulak. Barnaby belonged to a social club that had as part of its name Little Men’s Chowder & Marching Society. One day an officer that worked in the same building, but was not part of the working group pinned an episode of Barnaby on Krulak’s door. He had underlined “Little Men’s Chowder & Marching Society” and added an arrow pointing to Barnaby, identifying him as Krulak.”
The Chowder Society was an ad hoc group that varied in number from three or four to as many as ten. There were no meetings, only individual members whose work was collected and organized by Krulak. Members joined and later moved on, but Krulak was there from the beginning to the end.
During the Hoffman Committee hearings, Congress soon became aware of the anti-Marine hostility behind the plan for unification-especially Eisenhower’s, as he revealed in confidential papers. Hoffman forced the release of the JCS papers.
You claim that the Marine Corps organized an underground campaign to ensure it’s larger role. I find that hard to believe. Because many Marine Officers and Staff NCO’s that had nothing to do with the Chowder Society that worked in the same building became aware of the work that was going on to save the Marine Corps and it was openly discussed in the Officers Club, SNCO Club, and occasionally the mess hall.
Also, the Marine Corps reached out to the following organizations: The Marine Corps Reserve Officers Association, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the National Guard Association, the National Rifle Association, and all these organization testified on behalf of the Marine Corps.
Other organizations that they reached out to did not support the Marine Corps such as the American Legion.
The Marine Corps also reached out to members of Congress trying to find out what the specific details of the Unification plan, as the Army and the President refused to disclose the contents. Until they were forced to.
The Marine Corps was not hiding the fact that they were concerned about unification or that they wanted to be included in the debate.
Any of the above organizations, as well as the Congressman that were asked about the details of the plan, could have easily informed the President, the press, and others.
Also, if the Marines wanted to keep it, a secret all they had to do was treat their work like any other Top Secret or Secret documents that would be processed in a secure area. They had no need to make up an underground organization.
A bill proposing military unification was introduced in 1946, and Congress wanted to know what the Marine Corps had to say about it.
That was the first and only time that the Marine Corps was officially notified of the unification plan and they were instantly placed under a Gag order by President Truman and it was made clear that support of the proposal before Congress was expected.
That was especially unfair. The Army continued to lobby Congress, and the Marine Corps had not been represented.
When the Marine Corps was faced with the presidential order to remain silent on the unification bill, several Marine officers retired and testified as civilians before Congress.
When Forrestal gave the order to Gen. Vandegrift (USMC) he replied “ I do not believe that is a legal order, I’m going to have my counsel check on it. If it is a legal order, I’m going to explain to the Congress the circumstances under which I’m obeying it.” And they backed down.
When Truman and the Army chiefs failed to push the unification of the services through Congress, they hoped at least to accomplish the reduction of the Marine Corps to a virtual constabulary role.
The Secretary of Defense quickly ordered sharp cuts to the Marine Corps budget forcing the Corps to pare down to eight light, reduced strength infantry battalions, and twelve air squadrons. He also outlawed the Marine Corps birthday balls.
These budget cuts in Congress, directed by President Truman were such that it would incapacitate the Marine Corps and, in effect, phase it out of existence.
The Marine Corps was barely hanging on and did not have the budget to train as it should or to maintain its equipment properly. That was the situation of the Marine Corps when the North Koreans invaded South Korea. Notwithstanding this handicap, the Marine Corps performed superbly in Korea while the army did poorly.
Here is a quote from U.S. Army Colonel John Michaelis:
“The U.S. Army has still not accepted the simple fact that its performance in Korea was lousy.”
You said you’d offer evidence and then never do it.
It is a bold faced lie to say the Army promoted a plan of unification. Please state the names of the officers, their position or even the name of the plan with any dates to substantiate such a falsehood. You can’t and you won’t because it didn’t happen. Force structuring doesn’t work that way. One branch does not tell another how to oprerate or man itself. The unification idea was hatched by Congressmen and had no Army representation.
The Army was fully engaged justifying its own existence in a nuclear age where Armies were supposed to be obsolete. Going after the Marine Corp wasn’t even on the Army’s radar screen. Marine boosters have created a boogeyman to justify their irrational inferiority complex. (Not saying the Marines are inferior, saying many Marine boosters have a complex of inferiority which drives constant comparisons against the Army in discussions that don’t even involve the Army).
The Army has no issues with Korea. Considering it lost seven times the number the Marines lost, stopped the N. Koreans at Pusan, was largely responsible for pushing the communists to the Yula, stopped them again at the 389th parallel there is little to be ashamed of. Now no doubt a BDE or Division of Marines made an impressive show on occasion but all of the heavy lifting in Korea was done by the Army. Only those with little appreciation for the scope of conflict that was Korea could cherry pick specific occasions and try and tar an entire force.
BTW, the Marines left men behind on numerous occasions. (e.g.Makin Island, Mayaguez etc.) I just have an understanding of combat and greater degree of respect for my fellow servicemen to accuse them of cowardice than someone who has never worn the uniform…
I see that you continue to lie. “I never said I would offer evidence.” Anyone that cares to read my post will see I never said that.
However, I will offer the evidence you seek.
Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall made a
proposal for post-war unification before the Joint Chiefs
of Staff on November 2, 1943.
The basic outline of the plan was originally the brainchild of US Army Lt. Col. William K. Harrison Jr., he proposed the plan in the fall of 1940.
US Army General Marshall took the project in 1941 and continued thru 1942 in the planning stages. Gen. Marshall called back to active service former senior army officers that were formed into a working group to hash out the plan for the drawdown after the war and the reorganization/Unification of the services.
In April 1944, House committee hearings began on the subject. Chaired by Representative Clifton A. Woodrum, the Woodrum hearings gave a new momentum to the Army’s unification plan. The Army program gained added momentum with the Richardson Committee report presented in May 1945.
As a Vice Presidential candidate, Truman had written an article for Colliers magazine entitled, “Our Armed Forces Must Be Unified.” So, it is clearly apparent that he also had a hand in the fight for unification.
Truman’s first opportunity for the reorganization of the Military came when Secretary Forrestal suggested legislation increasing the permanent strength of the Marine Corps. This enabled Truman to send the issue to the Joint Chiefs for review. As a result, certain Army officers notably General Eisenhower and General Spaatz aired their views under the Series 1478 JCS papers. In papers, 10 and 11 Eisenhower and Spaatz wrote at length on the ultimate role of the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps was not represented on the Joint Chief of Staff.
The papers recommended that the Marine Corps be kept very small, Among the duties envisioned were, “to protect
United States citizens ashore in foreign countries and to
provide the interior guard of naval ships and naval shore
establishments.
I could list the senior army officers that were formed into the working group and some others that were involved, but the list would be long. So, I will stop here. The above should suffice.
By the way, this group was called Strategic and Policy Group on 12 May 1942 but was changed shortly after that to Strategy and Policy Group.
You say that the Army has no issues with Korea. Considering it lost seven times the number the Marines lost.
Have you examined the fact they lost more because they army has a significantly larger force than the Marines, or maybe it is because the army was not prepared for war?
You say the army stopped the N. Koreans at Pusan.
US Army Col. Fehrenbach said the Eighth Army that was pushed into the Pusan Perimeter needed help and the Provisional Marine Brigade—which MacArthur had requested for the amphibious operation at Inchon—had to be diverted to the Pusan perimeter to help save the Eighth Army.
You say the army was largely responsible for pushing the communists to the Yalu. The communist/North Koreans ran back to North Korea to escape being cut off and surrounded after they found out about the Inchon landings.
You say Marines left men behind on numerous occasions. (e.g.Makin Island, Mayaguez, etc.).
The Mayaguez incident where you claim that the Marines left men behind was not because of the Marines actions.
Three Marines were left behind because the Air Force helicopter pilot panicked and took to the air before they could get on. The Marines immediately tried to get the pilot to return, and he refused.
This operation was thrown together at the last minute. That is why the Marines did not have their helicopters there and were forced to do the mission using air force assets.
As for Makin Island, the Marines did their best for three days to rescue their men but do to heavy surf and failure of outboard motors it was difficult.
At 09:00 on 18 August, the subs sent a rescue boat to stretch a rope from the ships to the shore that would allow the remaining Raiders’ boats to be pulled out to sea. But just as the operation began, Japanese planes arrived and attacked, sinking the rescue boat and attacking the subs, which were forced to crash dive and wait on the bottom the rest of the day.
Despite hours of heroic effort, 11 of 18 boats were unable to breach the unexpectedly strong surf. Having lost most of their weapons and equipment, the exhausted survivors struggled back to the beach to link up with 20 fully armed men who had been left on the island to cover their withdrawal.
At 23:08, having managed to signal the subs to meet his Raiders at the entrance to Makin Lagoon, Carlson had a team, led by Lt. Charlie Lamb, build a raft made up of three rubber boats and two native canoes, powered by the two remaining outboard motors. Using this raft, 72 exhausted Raiders sailed 4 miles from Makin to the mouth of the lagoon, where the subs picked them up.
Nine Marines were inadvertently left behind and or returned to the island during the night withdrawal.
You say I just have an understanding of combat and greater degree of respect for my fellow servicemen to accuse them of cowardice than someone who has never worn the uniform.
I never accused anybody of cowardice. Why do you continue to claim I said things that I never said?
You are correct about me not wearing a uniform. I have worn three of my country’s uniforms. There are people on this site that claim they all kinds of things. So, I do not put much value on their claims about themselves, and I have refrained from talking about myself. I can usually tell by their statements where they are in the chain.
That is also why I confine my response to their comments and not call them out. Even when it is clearly obvious that they do not have the experience they claim to have.
You characterize an Army plan from the early 40’s as an ending of the Marine Corps using the word “unification”. It was not. “Marshall’s basic proposition was to integrate the services into a single department along the same lines as his wartime organization of the Army. A civilian secretary would be responsible for the nonmilitary administration of the services, a role similar to Secretary Stimson’s during the war. Under him would be a single Chief of Staff for the Armed Forces directing the military activities of four operating commands: the Army, Navy, Air Forces, and a Common Supply and Hospitalization Service patterned after Army Service Forces.” http://www.history.army.mil/books/root/chapter4.htm
We are in fact “unified and integerated” today very much as Marshall promoted under a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary fo Defense as well as combatant commanders that command all services dedicated to their Area of Operations. Only the CJCS and DoD Sec advise the President. All this “ending the Marine Corps” is BS as it pertains to Marshall, Eisenhower, the Army etc. and is an often referenced strawman by Marine boosters to feel threatened and promote their at times unique and above the “common good” interests.
You then jump to a different plan from the late 40’s (while never informing the reader of the difference) in which Eisenhower proposed the Marines maintaining their true expeditionary mission as opposed to b ecoming the second army it is today.
FTR, I’m not a fan of Truman or his opinion of the Corps formed by the Corps showboating in WWI who was acting as the President. Not an Army officer.
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Again demonstrating your myopic bias you give too much credit to one Marine BDE in the Pusan perimeter. No doubt the Marines acquitted themselves well at Pusan but characterizing the Marines as “saving” the Army demosntrates your clear bias. Did the Army save the Marines at Guadalcanal? Did the Army’s Tiger BDE save the Marines in Desert Storm as it provided amost half of the Marimes armored strength? Did the 2d BDE of the First CAV division save the Marines in Falujah as it provided a third of the Marines combat strength? In comparison the Marines made up one Bde of three Army Divisions and five S. Korean Divisions in the Pusan perimeter. Claiming the Marines saved Pusan is akin to the Marines claiming they defeated the German Spring offensive of 1918 at Belleau Wood when they served as one Bde of one of the two Army divisions that also fought the Germans to a standstill. Not to downgrade the Marine BDE’s very laudable accomplishments claiming they won the whole battle is a ridiculously laughable overstatement. Your claims and behavior though justify why the author used the term “Never Faithful” and makes claims of stolen valor. Claiming others accomplishments or maximizing yours at the cost of others demoinstrates a lack of loyalty or common cause.
Quite predictable to blame the Air Force for leaving Marines behind or enemy action and strength. For you being too spread out ior facing a determined enemy that interferes with your efforts to withdraw is only wrong when the Army does it…
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Reread you comments in total. You have disparged the men of the 31st RCT numerous times. Just like you slyly disparged the Army’s casualty rate in Korea. As for being unprepared you might want to research how the Marines through a force together and arrived quite late to Korea as the Army fought a fighting withdrawl on a much greater scale than Chosin.
I guess the Army was pathetic in the Civil War, WWI and WWII also since it had a casualty rate much greater than the Marine Corps. This would make sense if one is completly ignorant as to the number of battles each conflict consisted of and how many each service fought in. A more critical mind would figure that out for itself…
While I respect the Army and its service to this great country, the Marine Corps is still (and will always be) the finest branch of the US military. You, sir, are a jealous, ungrateful individual and I have pitty for you. God Bless all of our Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen. If you’re so adamant against the Marine Corps, you should have tried to become a Marine. Easier said than done. However, getting into the Army is a much easier task….you know that. Semper fi Marines, always faithful…
All the difference between you jarheads and us soldiers is a two week difference in basic training, and that you guys do pull ups while we do situps. You guys do a have a sharper looking dress uniforms though, also goes to show that this shit country we live in, doesn’t give a crap about the army and therefore shouldn’t even exist. Marienes get all the hype thanks to movies like full metal jacket. Yeah and we get laughed at thanks to pvt benjamin and stripes lol. Total bullshit if you ask me. I guess, yeah we are jealous because we have our ass in the sand as well and yet our shit governement doesn’t give a damn about us.
fake news. The Army has had a continuous succession in the US since its inception. The real Marines where disbanded. The Corps is not a real branch, its a cult. Its also department just like it states on the jarhead seal. The Corps is already downsizing and getting rid of alot of its capabilities because it has become bloated and not staying true to its mission. Its lost some Infantry, it’s lost some rotary capabilities, along with some support and its armor. It’s actually easier to get rid of the Corps due to it size. Remember the Army has the big dick, the Corps has a small one. keep eating crayons jarhead.
Why don’t the army merge with the Corps? Or are you still fighting the Indians and want the ones that joined the Corps.
The person who wrote this seems to be attempting to discredit the Marine Corps. “Attempting”.
It’s funny because Marines don’t need to discredit other services in order to feel pride, all we have to do is believe in what we do and who we are. Sounds like you (the writer) are having some kind of problem with that.
As for the idea of merging the Marines and the Army into one force? No. You (the writer) could have joined the Marine Corps, but you decided on the Army… like many others. So the answer is still NO, we would want you to go to boot camp first. Until you do that, no Eagle, Globe, and Anchor for you. Now take your little history lesson back to the community college lefty teacher you’re rubbing pee pees with and have a nice day…
I can see why A. Scott Piraino (the one who created this blog) is so angry at the world. ANSWER : He wasn’t a Marine, he wasn’t a soldier, he was never in combat, A. SCOTT PIRAINO WAS IN THE NAVY, briefly, and did not do very well at it either, he has no degree, though he did attend colleges, not much of a social standing, . So I can see why he somehow attempts to get himself vindication by attempting to discredit people who made it possible for him to live and breathe. What he should have wrote is the Rivalry between Seaman A. Scott Piraino, and the Shellback Marines who bullied him on wog day. Poor little seaman.
Seaman Piraino (the writer of this worthless blog) : let me know if I got any of YOUR personal history wrong. Also, tell us the story about you working in the carnival, we’d like to know about the cotton candy incident.
Also, after scanning your blog, while it does have a few worthwhile topics, I see that you really don’t contribute anything but a rehash from other internet blog contributors. You had best leave such things to the people privy to the real scoop instead of copy/paste/+ your own blind opinion on sensitive matters you know nothing about. You become part of the disinformation soup of the internet when you do that.
Leif,
When you said “Marines don’t need to discredit other services in order to feel pride” you certainly said a mouthful. I wish that it was true.
No matter who the author is, and what he has or hasn’t done, he is quite accurate in calling out the USMC on one particular that I’m very familiar with — the Battle of Chosin Reservoir.
The Marine commander, OP Smith, and several of his Chaplains, made massively inflammatory statements in the media, and the official history, that were complete fabrications. My own grandmother spent Christmas of 1950 believing that her 18 year old son, a line medic with the 31st RCT, was not only dead, but was a coward. Fortunately, he was not dead, or I wouldn’t exist, but most were either dead or captured, only 106 walked out.
That same story happened 2,300 times to each family of a 31st RCT soldier.
Fifty years later, the USMC, at the urging of some Marine historians that were part of the battle, and after General Song’s memories came out, apologized. It was lame, half-hearted, and not really an apology. But I’ll take it.
None of the parents of those 31st RCT solders were alive to hear the apology, few of the spouses were, most of the kids were retirement age and had no clue that the record had been corrected. I’m one of the lucky ones — a child born of those 106 soldiers that covered the 1st MarDivs retreat out of Chosin after the battle, and were born after the fact.
The thing is Leif, this is one case, apparently of many, where the Marines DID need to discredit other services in order to feel pride. And they did it with typical Marine efficiency. In spades.
Before you question my credentials, let me provide them to you, I joined the Army in the 80s, stood too for the end of the cold war in Germany, deployed to Saudi Arabia as a VII Corps “hey you”, grabbed from 1-15 Infantry in V Corps. I spent the first day of the ground offensive with the 1st MarDiv, and ended the last day with Tiger Brigade of Hell on Wheels, doing typical stupid shit that the military comes up with. I’ve also deployed to Mogadishu with 1-64 AR in the wake of the problems the Rangers had. So feel free to question my credentials.
I enjoyed my week with the Marines. I called them dumb assed Jarheads, and they poked back in similar fashion. Literally the only difference I ever saw between us was that the crayons eating kindermarines had never been trained to put a cover on their fighting positions.
Funny thing, I live in Columbus, Georgia, where the Marines send all their tankers for traing and anyone else that needs airborne training. I make it a point to buy young Marines a pitcher of beer when I see them out and chat with them. I always bring up Chosin. Every Marine I’ve met, Seventeen years after the non-apology apology, is still getting the old school, bullshit story that OP Smith peddled in the wake of the Chosin.
So yea, the USMC keeps peddling lies lies about other services, but it only discredits itself in its pathetic attempts to feel worthy. You can take your globe and anchor, and shove them straight up your ass. Use the rope to pull them out 😉
The USMC is the worst blue falcon in the history of any military, anywhere, and until you fix that, you should expect other branches to think you are complete assholes.
Semper Fi 🙂
Fighting with the Indians? I didn’t know America was at war with India.
If one was aware of more than just one service’s history one would know the nation has waged war against American Indian tribes for the first half of its history, over a century of fighting actually.
It’s like someone saying they weren’t aware of the Marines fighting the Banana Republics wars. And no, the Marines weren’t fighting fruit companies.
Way back in this blog some army guy says Marines took credit for Guadalcanal when as many Army fought there . Well boys if you even understand history to know what Guadalcanal actually is it happens to be the fist ground offensive of ww2 started by the first marine division ONLY! i just buried my 94 year old father joined in 1940 who was a Guadalcanal Marine on the first wave i know from his written dairy which i have in my hand and from years of talking about it. Absolutely positively there was more Army than Marines AFTER THE FUCKIN ISLAND WAS SECURED AND AFTER THE MARINES WERE HALF STARVED AND RACKED WITH MALARIA!!! They came with all their equipment food and beer (which we stole from them) AFTER!!! 80% of the japs were beaten!!!! AND BY THE WAY in his diary he states that the Marines had to get back off the ships before leaving the island to help the ARMY complete the victory with only 20% enemy left. What a terrible thing to say when you dont talk about when the Army actually came there of course there was more of them the battle was mostly OVER! I used to sit as a kid at first Marine Division Reunions and listen to these men and how disappointed and disgusted they were with the Army on that critical island. Get your facts straight. There is always more Army fighting once the battle is almost over! I am also A Marine and I will tell you many Marines like me were offered reserve commissions in the Army after our service and refused to take them why? putting on that uniform would be a real disgrace to any Marine so we refused the commissions. Many Many Many people in my boot camp with me left the Army actually gave up their rank, put themselves through Marine Corps Boot Camp just to wear our uniform because of what it stands for not how it looks. It rarely goes the other way. This history is fact read it from the beginning. Don’t take Guadalcanal away from us we wont take Normandy away from you the Army did awesome there and if you want to read more history there were Marines behind the lines with the french resistance before and during the Normandy landing Google Major Peter Ortiz and Sterling Hayden.
“Absolutely positively there was more Army than Marines AFTER THE FUCKIN ISLAND WAS SECURED AND AFTER THE MARINES WERE HALF STARVED AND RACKED WITH MALARIA!!!”
1st Marine Division was withdrawn from Guadalcanal in December of 1942. They were combat ineffective before that The Japanese did not give up on Guadalcanal January of 1943, AFTER 1st Marine Division was withdrawn. There was still fighting on Guadalcanal in December of 1942, when the 1st Marine Division was combat incapable, all of it done by Soldiers. Even after the Japanese gave up on Guadalcanal in January of 1943, thousands of Japanese troops were still there. Two USArmy Divisions, the 25th ID and Americal division conducted the offensive operations which finally cleared Guadalcanal of Japanese troops.
You grossly exaggerate when you claim 1st Marine Dvision securedGuadalcanal and then left it to the army to mop up. In some instances in your post you out and out lie.
I’m sorry your family member instilled jarhead propaganda in your but with the advent of the internet you can find the real information yourself. No the Army did not offer you a reserve commission. You cannot be an officer without having certain educational requirements. So this is most likely another jarhead fabrication. I have heard of very few Soldiers leaving the Army to become jarheads, most are lower enlisted so losing a rank is not a big deal. We due have a big influx of jarheads in the Army due to the Corps no longer needing them or wanting them. Also almost all jarheads who join the Army all claim to be “Force Recon” why is this?
A Scott Piraino, the writer of this blog, WAS IN THE NAVY, briefly, he never served in combat, or a combat zone. He has no college degree but has attended college, he did better in the carnival making cotton candy, than being a seaman in the Navy.
A Scott Piraino should have wrote “Seaman A Scott Piraino bullied by Marines”
He has no real knowledge of combat other than that of the internet that any fool can look at and interpret in their own way. All of his blog posts are rehashes of other peoples work, only they’re dumber do to his “thoughts” about the matter.
I rate him as either a buffoon or a boob. It’s a hard choice. I was trying to figure out what kind of jacked up psychologically dented individual would actually create this blog, now everyone knows why.
Leif,
I don’t know the author, but I know enough history to know that his facts are basically on track, if written in an intentionally inflammatory style.
Rather than the ad hominem attack on his person, what the kids these days call “dox-ing”, why not address his points and refute them with facts if such facts exist?
We could all do with a little more civility on the interwebs…
Fight like the Army lie like a Marine.
With respect to every Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Coast Guard and Air Force person who died in all of the battles since the Revolutionary war, I don’t think they really cared what uniform they were wearing when the battle started. All enlisted to serve their country, all never hesitated to engage the enemy and stand firm until they fell. We are a great nation with the finest military on earth. In order to keep it that way, all of you who have commented have one thing in common. Your ability to dialog in a free country, express your opinion and be proud of your branch of service. This makes us who we are. When the balloon goes up and the inbound fire begins…all prepare to fight and if needed to die regardless of the patch on their uniform.
Lol. Look at the girly marines crying spewing their false narrative. I love it !! The truth hurts !! The whole marine macho shit is all bullshit !! From the lies of the devil dog to the blood stripe !! All bullshit to push their false narrative in order to get funding ! I served from 1982 to 2007 . i was with the 82nd Airborne , 173rd Brigade and with the 10th Mountain Division thru out my career. Marines do jack shit ! From operations urgent fury & just cause. They were non factors but Clint Eastwood made a movie on their alleged battles. Well dip shits I was there the USMC did squat ! Also in operation Desert Storm ! Did nothing consequential ! They lie ! America would be just fine without the marines. But the US needs the US Army. We dont need the Marines ! We captured Baghdad and the Sunni Triangle that is a fact. But the Marines release press releases saying they did. The marines ran away from FULLAJAH after the 82nd had it under control and the Army came and saved the day again !! I can go on for hours ! Iwo Jima was bombed and shelled for a montn before the marines landed defended by 28000 Japs. Marines lost 20k and took them a month. We took Normady beach within 6 hours and there was no 30 days of bombing and shelling. Only one hour and the Navy and Air Corp missed their targets. We were outnumbered at the beach by 10-1. The marines outnumbered the japs 2-1. Its all Propoganda for funding.
You must be a pure homosexual who never was in any form of combat other than getting your fat obese ass kicked at your school bus stop… what a homo. This entire blog was written by a non-combat navy peer queer who never saw combat either… the two of you should date. Go be gay together…
CALLING YOU A COMPLETE IDIOT IS A DISGRACE TO TRUE IDIOTS OUT THERE . YOUR A FUCKING CHOPPING STUMP . . FIGURE IT OUT . MAN I WOULD LOVE TO DUMP YOUR ASS OUT IN FULL GEAR IN THE OCEAN, Bet your little whiny bitch voice would be begging for Marines or a SeaL to keep your lump of a dense head above water then., lol YOUR ALL MOUTH GO DRINK SOME SEA WATER INTOP YOUR LUNGS AND SEE HOW YOU FARE , LOL WHAT A FUCKING IQ===THAT OF A DEAD FLASHLIGHT BATTERY. . PUNK BITCH!!
Sounds like some soldiers are bitter!
You forget that Marines did fight in the American Revolution, and in 1812, and in every major US engagement since. Your scholarship credentials are severely compromised. And despite being used for inly the most difficult situations, they have generally performed brilliantly. And by the way, Marines also helped plan and execute Operation Overloard and were members of the OSS in Europe, so your Army approved talking points once again do not match facts. You also forget that all US Special Operations were nearly placed in the Marine Corps following Korea, but they declined. I think in the future, Special Ops may become it’s own branch. The Marines will probably be a large part of that branch along with the Army and a few other Navy and Airforce units. However, the Marine Corps is not a good fit for absorption by the regular army.
The Marines played a small and insignificant role in the Revolution. 2000 officers and men served inthe Continental Marine Corps from November 1775 to April 1783. Total casualties for those 8 years were 49 killed and 70 wounded, not indicative at all of heavy fighting. The Army took more casualties in just the Trenton/Princeton campaign, 25 December 1776-3 January 1777. Incidentally, in spite of the false article published in the Marine Corps Gazette in 1921, 600 Marines did not reinforce Washington’s Army before the Battle of Trenton – ccording to General Victor Krulak in “First to Fight”, the size of the Marine Battalion which reinforced Washington’s Army was 131 officers and men. Their casualties for the Trenton/Princeton battles were 1 killed in action, 3 wounded.
In spite of Bladensburg, Marines did not play a big role in the War of 1812. Theyt did not fight at the Thames, at Plattsburgh, at Chippewa, at Lundy’s Lane, all significant US victories. They played a small role in the defense of Baltimore-no Marines fought at tee Battle of North Point or at Fort McHenry, the actions which saved Baltimore. At New Orleans, Andrew Jackson had between 4000-5000 men on line, of whom 58 were Marines.
In the Mexican War, Marines did not play a big or important role. Check out Marines in the Mexican War.pdf. Soldiers, not Marines, captured Chapultepc and MexicoCity. Marine Casualties for the mexico City campaign were 7 killed, 24 wounded. Army casualties were in the thousands. Total Marine casualties for the Mexican War were only about 200.
The Marine Corps in the Civil War numbered 3000. The Army of the Potomac took between 25,000 and 30,000 in the Battle of Gettysburg. Marines did not fight in any of the major battlesof the Civil ar except for Bull Run. At Bull Run, the Marine Battalion was one of the first Union units to rout.
Marine participation in the Spanish American War was minimal.
In WWI, 2 million US troops served in Europe, of whom 10,000 were marines. Soldiers went into combat at the Second Battle of the Marne days before te Marines attacked Belleau Wood.
In WWII, Marines fought in the Southwest Pacific and the Central Pacific. After Guadalcanal and Cartwheel, the SW Pacific was an Army theater. the Central Pacific was not an exclusive Marine Theater. 7th, 27th, 77th, 81st, and 96th Infantry Divisions fought in the Central Pacific and were crucial to Marine victories, Guadalcanal, the Marshall Islands, Saipan, Guam, Peleliu, Okinawa. Soldiers did most of the fighting and dying on Okinawa.
Marines did not do any of the fighting in North Africa, in Sicily, in Italy, in France. Those operations were larger than anything the Marines carried out in the Pacific. The first Corps sized assault landing carried out by the Marines wasSaipan. Prior to Saipan, Army troops had carried outCorps sized landings in Nrth Africa, in Sicily, in Italy, in Europe.
In Korea, as I have noted in another comment, the Marines got the opportunity to prepare and fight in Korea because Soldiers went in First. Inchon would not have been possible had not Soldiers gone in first and established the Pusan Perimeter. 1st Marine Division would never have broken out from Chosin had the Army’s 31st RCT not fought to the death protecting the Marines’ Eastern flank.
More later. Other committments force me to stop now.
Mike, the US Army was a small force at the outbreak of the US CW. Most of the Army “regulars” were out west having participated in expeditions against the Mormons and the Navaho Indians. My g-great-grandfather was in the “newest of the old, the 10th US regiment (1858-1863). During the USCW the “regulars” were eventually consolidated into the Army of the Potomac by the battle of Fredericksburg.
At the battle of Fredericksburg General Burnsides sent the state militias on costly frontal assaults that had no hope of succeeding. The US “regulars” were sent into line to fill the gap and was all that was between the Army of Virginia and Washington DC. You seem to blur the lines between state militias which made up the majority of the Army of the Potomac and the US Army of today.
Throughout the early days of the Republic a “standing army” was considered a threat to the liberty of the people. I suspect that much of your other observations are flawed like you analysis of the Army of the Potomac. .
This is how stupid jarheads are. SOCOM is its own element. No there was never a time when all US Spec Ops where going to the jarheads, probably another fabrication from the jarhead propaganda machine. Jarheads might have helped plan Operation Overlord but they did not help execute. How does a few jarheads in OSS fighting with the French or being liaisons have anything to do with the massive fighting the Army was doing, to include amphibious landings and fighting in the Pacific have to do with anything? No jarheads are not a large part of SOCOM nor would they ever be part of a branch of just SOCOM and jarheads, keep eating crayons. More of that jarhead propaganda spoon fed to you by DI’s. Nothing you said proves anything about the lies of the cult called the Corps propaganda.
people argue over which is better, i have been in both as a 11b and a 0331. after 20 years of service i can sat that the army is fucking gay undisciplined morons.
nice try jarhead. your propaganda wont work any longer. you somehow where an 11b and 0331 with 20 years of service and never deployed. keep eating crayons.
You are a dumb fuck and clearly have not fought in Iraq
Please. A painfully obvious jealous streak is rampant in this article. The author is simply masking his recentment for not having the courage to have joined the Marine Corps instead of the Army. Shall I write an article and go on and on about the times the Marines have bailed out the Army and done far more with less in our history? You can’t swing a dead cat around by its tail without hitting some ass clown who’s not a Marine willing to run them down. Typical behavior of the envious.
“Shall I write an article and go on and on about the times the Marines have bailed out the Army and done far more with less in our history?”
If you wrote such an article, it would be an extremely short article. Rarely, if ever has the Marine Corps ever bailed out the Army. The Army has bailed out the Marine Corps on multiple occasions.
On Guadalcanal, the Army’s 164th Infantry and 182nd Infantry reinforced the First Marine Division around Henderson Field and were crucial to the Marines’ ability to defend Henderson Field.
On Saipan, the unfairly maligned 27th Infantry Division was ordered ashore by Admiral Raymond Spruance because the Marines were in trouble. HM Smith, a comletely inept General, had seriously underestimated Japanese Strength on Saipan. After t2 days of fighting, 2nd and 4th Marines Divisions had taken thousands of casualties and had been stopped cold. The landing of the 27th ID is what enabled V Amphibious Corps to advance out of its bach head and capture Saipan.
On Guam, III Amphibious Corps landed, took casualties, and their attack bogged down. The Army’s 77th Infantry Division landed and reinforced the Marines. The landingof the 77th Infantry Division is what enabled US forces to secure Guam.
On Peleliu, William Rupertus, another completely inept Marine General had 1st Marine Division making direct frontal assaults on Japanese defensive positions which were impregnable to direct frontal assault. After 3 weeks, the Marines had taken thousands of casualties, the 1st Marines were no longer combat effective, and Peleliu was still not secure. Rupertus had predicted before the battle that 1st Marine Division would crack the Japanese defenses in 2-3 days. The Army’s 81st Infantry Division reinforced the Marines. The 1st Marine Division was then withdrawn because it was no longer combat effective. The 81st ID completed the conquest of Peleliu.
Then, lets look at Korea. Marines like to say that the Marines saved Korea. When North Korea came South in June of 1950, the priority was to put boots on the ground to oppose the North Korean Army. The entire US Military had been gutted post WWII. In June of 1950, the USMC was incapable of putting boots on the ground. The US Army was. The Soldiers, admittedly, were poorly trained, poorly prepared and ill equipped. They did go in and fight and bleed and die effectively enough to establish the Pusan Perimeter, to prevent North Korea from overrunning South Korea, and, in the process, buying time for the inadequately prepared Marine Corps to prepare. The first Marine Infantry to get to Korea, the 5th Marines, did not get there until after the Pusan Perimeter had been established. The first Army Units in Korea, e.g. Task Force Smith, had to fight alone and unsupported against numerically superior North Korean units. When the Marines went into combat, they had support on their flanks, support to the rear, and were facing North Korean units which had been worn down over wiiks of combat, had suffered significant personnel and equipment losses, and which had been reduced to making up their personnel losses by conscripting South Korean Civilians into their army. So far as Inchon is concerned, Inchon was made possible when the Soldiers established the Pusan Perimeter. The last battle for the Pusan Perimeter was fought after the 5th Marines had been withdrawn from Pusan. While the Marines were landing at Inchon, the North Korean Army were all down South trying to break the Pusan Perimeter. If the Army had not gone in first, the Marine Corps would never have had the opportunity to fight in Korea.
Now, Chosin. During the Chosin Battle, the 27th Chinese Army, the 79th, 80th an 81st Infantry Divisions, was deployed on the Eastern Side of Chosin, tasked with advancing down the Eastern side on Hagaru Ri. They made the attempt. They failed to get to Hagaru Ri, taking thousands of killed and wounded in the process. There were no Marines on the East Side of Chosin. The only troops were the Army’s 31st Regimental Combat Team, ordered there by General Ned Almond so the Marines could concentrate the 7th and 5th Marines on the West side of Chosin. OP Smith and a lying Navy Chaplain, Otto Sporrer, claimed that the soldiers threw away their weapons and ran. If that had happened,the consequence would have been two, possibly three, Chinese infantry Divisins advancing unfought down the East side of Chosin on Hagaru Ri. Hagaru ri was already under attack by a Chinese Division. The troops holding Hagau ri were two battalions of Marines and some artillery, the equivalent of an understrength regiment. Had the 31st RCT not fought the Chinese on the East side of the Chosin Reservoir, the Chinese would have gotten to Hagaru ri before 5th Marines, 7th Marines and 11th Marines could have concentrated there. They would have gotten there before Task Force Drysdale. Hagaru ri would have fallen. 1st Marine DIvision would have been destroyed. OP Smith, who trashed the soldiers of the 31st RCT would have ended up as a Chinese POW, and there would have been no attack in a different direction.
The Marines did not atal save the Army in Korea.
Read “This Kind of War” by Col. T.R. Fehrenbach, USA (Ret.), He commanded units in Korea at the platoon, company, and battalion levels. This book is also on the Army Chiefs of Staff list of recommended reading. You need to get the truth and stop believing the misinformation that the author of this site has put out. You will be shocked about how many times the army left their wounded and dead behind and threw down their weapons and ran.
This is what USA Col. Fehrenbach said in his book about the Marines saving the army. “The Provisional Marine Brigade – which MacArthur had requested particularly for the amphibious operation – had to be diverted to the peninsula to help save the Eighth Army.”
Now that’s interesting!!! I am a Marine and just lost my father 94 who was a Marine on Guadalcanal Every eye witness Marine, Naval Medical person and Australian coast watcher for that matter that I ever talked to at the First Marine Division Reunions over the years spoke of their disdain for the Army. The facts out of every one of their mouths was that the Army got there at the very end. In fact, these tired and sick Marines had to get back off their ships before leaving and help the Army re-secure the island when there was only 5% Japanese left . They got their with all their latest equipment and even beer rations after the battle was mostly finished. They were never there for the starvation or the enemy bombings. Get your facts straight and do not degrade these heros. Army did great things too but not here.
Good points Mike. I’d like to add that the Inchon landings were also the Army 7th ID, not just 1st MarDiv.
And to the USMCs credit, they did, eventually, after 50 years, issue a half-hearted apology for the characterization that OP Smith and Otto Sporrer made of the Army troops.
When MARSOC was created, they went to SF school, and the majority failed. LMAO!
That is not true. Looks to me like you are not interested in the truth/facts.
THEY NEVER ARE. ITS POINTLESS , CLULESS ASSBAGS THAT ONLY WISH THEY COULD ACCOMPLISH 1/100 OF MARSOC OR F RECON ORT MEU’s . YOUR PREACHING TO A STUMP . I HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED TAD DUTY IN TRAINING ARMY ON MULTIPLE BASES AND WITH A DETACHMENT OF ONLY 250 MARINES WE LITERALLY KICKED THEIR ASSES IN EVERY THING FROM HAND TO HAND TO FOOTBALL AND BASKETBALL, 8 MILE RUNS/ O COURSES –MOST OF WHICH ON ARMY side DROPPED/PUKED BY 3 -4 MILES . KEEP IN MIND THESE WERE SMALL DETACHMENTS OF MARINES ON BASES OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS AND WE WERE UNDEFEATED IN ALL OF IT . THATS NOT BS –THAT IS THE TRUTH , STRAIGHT UP. BUT TAKE IT FROM WHERE IT COMES ON THIS BS SITE . ITS A JOKE THE MARINE RECORDS IN BATTLE SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES . UNLESS THESE IDIOTS THINK WE SWAYED THE HONORS AND AWARDS IN OUR FAVOR FROM THE US GOVT. LOL THIS IS A JOKE ,. ALL MARINES KNOW IT—THE ARMY ===NOT ALL BUT MANY ON HERE HAVE A FANTASY –THAT LETS FACE IT –IS AS FALSE AS THEIR BS STORIES .OH AND FOR THEY GUY WHO SAYS MARINES WERE TO ARROGANT AND STUPID TO BECOME POLICE OFFICERS –CHECK YOUR HISTORY AND FACTS –MOST FBI, CIA , STATE TROOPERS AND NYPD,LAPD , LA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE , BORDER PATROL DEA . , PLUS MAJORITY OF POLICE DEPTS ARE IN FACT FORMER US. MARINES. THINK NOT ? LOOK IT UP.
THIS THING IS A FUCKING JOKE WITH CLEAR BS BIAS . MARINES TELL THEM ALL TO FUCK OFF–WE KNOW THE TRUTH ALL THE WAY TO OUR BOYS IN 3/5 TODAY. SEMPER FI BROTHERS THEY WILL NEVER KNOW THE FEELING , THE HONOR , THE CREED , BROTHERHOOD . IT CANT BE TGIVEN..ITS EARNED , SEMPER FI. FROM THE FEW , 183,000 , THE PRESIDENTS OWN N —THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT HONORED TITLE ASO.
TO END THIS , ONE NIGHT SOME FIGHTS BROKE OUT BETWEEN THE DAMN NEAR ENTIRE BASE OF army staff and 200 plus Marines . WELL NEXT DAY MOST ARMY WAS IN HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT AND OUR FIRST SHIRT CALLED IT THE ARMY ST VALENTINES DAY MASSACRE —AGAIN THATS 200 AGAINST A FUCKING ENTIRE ARMY BASE OF THOUSANDS ., AGAIN THAT IS A FACT !!! LIKE IT OR NOT ARMY . NOT ONE MARINE WAS NOT THERE IN FORMATION.
show us the facts jarhead. jarheads go to Army schools. You know Ranger, Airborne, SF training . Keep eating crayons gas45. More females have passed jarhead infantry course then females have passed SF/Ranger. jarheads somehow always think they are more elite than Rangers. jarheads need role models too.
Was in DLIFLC. Marines sat at the back of chow hall on one table. My friend and I went to sit there. All they could do is move to another table and begin to stare. My friend stared back, they put their tail between their legs. LMBO! HA HA HA HA HA!
Now now let’s be honest Sgt – we all know you went back there to suck their cocks and were the one that was rejected. It hurts but sometimes talking about it helps.
ha ha yeah right man your just a punk with a comic book capt america fantasy that mommy read iou at nighty night time..i got a TAIL FOR YA . IT WILL BEAT YOU NICELY AROUND THAT LITTLE ARMY HEAD OF YOURS LOL YOU GUYS REALLY BELIEVE YOUR OWN FANTASY LAND SHIT DONT YA .. DICK HEADS WITH NO DICK .LOL TRUE PUNK BITCHES !!!
YOU DO REALIZE THAT THESE QUOTES OF PRAISE IN MARINES AND THEIR ACTION / HEROICS WERE IN TRUE FACT WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED FIRST HAND BY ARMY FLAG OFFICERS –OR DID YOU MISS THAT PART AS WELL ON READING LEVEL 1 IST GRADE ?? LOL IDIOTTTTTTS!!!
UNNNNREALLLLL
Hey marines, santa clause isn’t real either. I always hear crap from my marine cousins about how much better marines are than the army. There isn’t a single case of a marine unit bailing out an army unit in Vietnam, but the 1st cav sure bailed the marines out at Khe sanh. Drafted, went to ocs, special forces, two rvn tours, and 7years active duty. Marines never did a thing for me.
GMH you are a lying sack of shit who was never an officer much less SF in RVN. You just some fatass kid who has played Call of Duty too much and if you had been of military age in 1968 you would have dressed up as a woman to avoid the draft or ran up to Canada to suck cock with all the other gutless pussies. If your going to lie get your facts right son, nobody was bailed out in Khe Sanh and who did the most damage was the USAF and their B-52’s that were used as close air support. The NVA were decimated and withdrew; no bailing out was needed. And speaking of 1968 let’s talk about what the 1st CAV neglected to do during the TET Offensive in the battle of Hue, the largest battle in the war, couldn’t keep the NVA replacement troops & supplies streaming into that city which prolonged the battle & casualties, didn’t accomplish the rear security / blocking mission they were assigned to.
The Marines or any other branch didn’t do anything for you because you never served in anything past the cub scouts asshole.
Marines got their asses handed to them in Fallujah on their first attempt… Who do they call for second? Big Brother ARMY!!! Look it up! LMAO!!! The CAV saved the Marines AGAIN!!!
The Marines did not get their asses handed to them in Fallujah as you claim. As for the Marines calling on the army for assistance with second Fallujah that was who they were supposed to go to. Because, the other Marine units were disbursed to other parts of Iraq. This was by design because of the problems the army had in Grenada with communications, etc. So, the new buzz word is Jointness. The DoD is pushing for all the services working closer together.
This is what the US Army National Ground Intelligence Center had to say about Fallujah:
A report looking back at the first battle of Fallujah, which led to a US withdrawal of forces from that city, concludes that a major reason for the US retreat wasn’t military incompetence or an unbeatable foe; no, it was the media.
“The outcome of a purely military contest in Fallujah was always a foregone conclusion — coalition victory,” according to a report from the US Army National Ground Intelligence Center.
“But Fallujah was not simply a military action, it was a political and informational battle. … The effects of media coverage, enemy information operations and the fragility of the political environment conspired to force a halt to US military operations.”
That halt, by the way, meant more US troops were killed in pacifying Fallujah than necessary. The first battle for Fallujah began on April 4, 2004, and ended five days later. The US had to wait six months before going back to finish the job.
Al-Jazeera and Al Arabiya, two Arabic satellite news channels, carried extensive coverage of the battle. They took pictures of dead babies in Fallujah’s hospital, “Presumably killed by coalition airstrikes,” though no proof was ever offered.
“Children were shown bespattered with blood,” the report said. “Mothers were shown screaming and mourning day after day.”
Many of those Al-Jazeera and Al Arabiya reports were uncritically echoed by the Western media, both in the US and Europe. It led to extreme pressure on the Iraqi government and the Coalition Provisional Authority to halt the Marine attacks on the city of 285,000.
Here, for example, is how The New York Times put it in its April 5, 2004, edition: “Together, the events in Fallujah and the other cities on Sunday appeared likely to shake the American hold on Iraq more than anything since the invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein’s government last April 9.” And that wasn’t at all untypical.
In fact, the US Marines entering Fallujah did take casualties and met heavy armed resistance. But without the misleading media coverage that led to political pressure, they would have almost certainly cleaned out what had become a viper’s nest of terrorist activity.
The insurgents FEARED the 82nd and Rangers before them in Fallujah. When the Marines got there… They called them SUGAR COOKIES!!! LMAO!!! This is too much!!! Its TRUE!!! Look it UP!
YOU FUCKING PIECE OF LOW LIFE FILTH . YOU BETTER PRAY NONE OF THESE MARINES EVER GET THEIR HANDS ON YOU .OR THEIR FAMILIES FOR THAT MATTER .SLITTTING YOU OPEN ISN’T GOOD ENOUGH YOU FUCKING OSTRITCH HEADED PUSSY, I PRAY TO MEET YOU ONE DAY-IT WILL BE QUICK !! AS DO ALL THE MARINES THAT MADE IT OUT OF THERE AND NAVY, ALONG WITH ARMY PERSONNEL THAT WERE THERE . YOU ARE THE TRUE DEFINITION OF A FUCKING LOW LIFE COWARD !! ONE DAY. –YOU WILL NEVER hear—-or FEEL IT COMING ,. YOU BOTTOM FEEDING hole digging PUSSY !! YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO ANY UNIFORM YOIU EVER PUT ON–IF ANY AT ALL. IM BETTING TRUE SOLDIERS AND MARINES WILL AGREE AFTER READING THAT DISRESPECT AND DISGRACE YOU PUT ON MEN WHO WERE THERE AND DID WHAT THEY WERE ORDERED UNDER THE BULLSHIT OF POLITICS YOU FUCKKKKKK!! PRAY I NEVER MEET YOU !NECK TO NUTS YOU FUCKING BAG OF USELESS AIR !!
Army is like a big, strong brother… Like Greg. Navy is like Marcia, strong, intelligent woman. Coast Guard is like Jan…Nobody cares about them. Air Force is sooo cute like Cindy and Marine Corps is like Peter and Bobby (Remember when Peter did more chin-ups)…. Just having that “little brother complex”. Hey Mom, Dad…Look at me! I’m special! Yes you are, yes you are… My dear sweet jar of marmalade head….LMAO!!!!! I just hurt myself!!!
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. Navy, Air Force, Marines support one Force… The Army. All the jobs in the Army support one profession…the INFANTRY! You don’t have to accept it. But its the truth. At Ease… and Carry On. Huah.
Nice sourcing on this bullshit. I also like that you completely ignored the cluster fuck Army disgrace that was Mogadishu.
You might want to be careful throwing stones at Mogadishu (which was hardly a disgrace). The Mayaguez rescue wasn’t a great day where Marines got more that twice as many Americans killed, didn’t accomplish the mission and left Marines behind, You won’t see that movie coming out…
Oooohhh! SNAP!!! MIKE!!! You and your Marines got BITCHSLAPPED!!!
Sgt (is that what you call yourself? I’ll just call you Generic Living Room “Warrior”… You obviously aren’t a combat vet and I would say you’re pretty much socially retarded, obese, wearing reading glasses due to your internet porn habit, homo, and I’d go further to say you’re likely to be wearing your sisters panties while you’re living in your Grandmother’s basement, am I right so far? Maybe you even play dress up in military uniforms you weren’t issued and pretend to have some form of combat experience. Every so often I run into one of you turds, and no matter how much “knowledge” you accrue from reading about real veterans on the internet, you just can’t get it right when you’re lying your ass off on the street corner. You should take it one step further and put in a claim for PTSD for that MMORPG IED that blew you up and made you smash your gaming mouse.
On the serious side Generic Living Room Warrior, there are many of us who get tired of hearing cream puffs like yourself with your “opinion” you really just don’t rate.
1. You didn’t participate in any Ground Combat, anywhere, unless you count the time you were attacked by the neighbors German Shepherd who was trained to bite homos.
2. You obviously don’t have any vital knowledge of the fighting which occurred in and around Fallujah in any time period.
3. You and the writer of this blog should be married, now that it’s legal, since you wouldn’t be able to procreate, the world would be safer. The blog writer wasn’t in the Army or the Marine Corps either, so you would both have something in common – Deranged homos who are “opinionated”.
OOOHH SNAP ??LOL LOL === WHAT ARE YOU SOME DROPOUT MORON FROM A CITY SOMEWHERE USING PHRASES FROM THE EARLY 80″S ==OHHHH SNAP?? I VENTURE TO SAY YOU NEVER SERVED A DAY IN ANY SERVICE WHAT A PUNK JERKOFF COWARD . G F Y. LOL WHAT AN ASSHOLE !! bitch slapped?? lol yeah that would be YOU !! BUT HEY ANYTIME YOU FEEL YOU CAN BITCCH SLAP A F RECON OR MARSOC MARINE OR GRUNT I CAN LINE UP HUNDREDS AS I SERVED AS TEAM LEAD IN MANY OF THESE UNITS AND AS MASTER GUNNERY SGT FOR YOU TO GIVE IT A WHIRL. LOL I SERVED THROUGH 80’s, 90,s 2000’s and how long did you serve and where??? . YOU HEAR NOTHING OF NIGHT OPS RECON MARSOC OPS BECAUSE THAT IS NOT OUR GOAL. IT IS TO ACCOMPLISH THE MISSION AND THAT IS IT NOT GET IN FRONT OF AS FUCKING CAMERA AND SAY HEYYYY LOOK AT US LOOK WHAT WE DO, WE ACCOMPLISH AND MOVE ON. THAT IS A FACT ., GIVE F RECON OR MARSOC SELECTION A TRY , BTW YOU WONT EVEN BE ELIGIBLE TO APPLY OR EVEN CONSIDERED UNTIL SEVERAL YEARS IN AND THEN YOU BETTER BE DAMN CLOSE TO PERFECT IN EVERYTHING TO EVEN GET A SHOT AT QUAL… GO “SNAP ON THAT” YOU PUNK !! LOL I GOT MORE TIME ON THE SHITTER THAN YOU HAD IN THE SERVICE –IF AT ALL YA BOOT OHHH SNAP == PUNK.
Did the Marines lick the wounds of Marcus Luttrell after the other 3 seals died along with 8 more and the rest of the seals LEFT. Who went in and got them out??? Marine Recon…. No ….. MarSoc…. No…
ARMY AIRBORNE RANGERS. Perro Diablo…. Carry on.
You should change your name from “Sgt” to “Captain fucking obscure”… Do you like just Google Search shit you think is relevant? I’m going to amend my assessment on you to include “fully fucking retarded with keyboard skills”. PS. Google Search “having a valid fucking point”.
Ah… this old bar fight waiting to happen. It’s not as funny when you’re sober. Kind of depressing actually.
Y’know, for such an inane and pointless argument, the history behind it is pretty fascinating. If you feel like digging, there’s a lot of dirt to find under all the fluff the brass presents to the public. A lot of propping up or exaggerating, and on the other side plenty of shit hushed and swept under the rug. A book on this would be damn interesting actually. Some people are willing to engage in some shady shit to protect their precious reputations I suppose; a sentiment attested to by the conduct of some of the more zealous asshats in these comments.
A fighting man’s a fighting man’s a fighting man. We serve the Nation, not the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, whatever. We can get along long enough to kick ass down there… way I see it, might as well do the same thing back home.
Follow Me / All The Way.
Oh for Pete’s sakes I have had enough i have a brother that was a marine another brother in the navy seabees in Vietnam and I was the first sergeant the army we love one another we poked fun at each other every once in awhile but the bottom line is we respect each other in the position that we carried and our responsibilities while we were in the service so my brother and I that were in the Navy decided to tell a story about a marine brother and this is how it goes . We have a great idea let’s all sit around the campfire and let’s figure out how we get a really pretty uniforms and then let’s all just joined together and go get a phlebotomy together and we’ll call ourselves Marines.
I have a better idea “shut the hell up” and do something like shake the hand of the man or women that has sworn to uphold the Constitution of United States and oh by the way we were never relieved from our sworn duty no matterney what the branch….giving each other a helping hand when needed …..fight the enemy together,shed blood together,help bind the wounds of one another. Stop getting wrapped around the axle about how’s better than the other. The real true proof of any “real true man” is the humble he has aquired.” be tough be humble.” O by the way try to get over your self.
Unlike you Marines, who have the right mind not to jump out perfectly good planes, I still think you are all legs. Airborne! Love all you dirty Jarhead legs……
The marines are a separate branch, and there is documented evidence of a German unit and its survivors who wrote books about their experiences and referred to marines as “hell-hounds” or “devil-dogs”. The marines and navy won the war in the pacific. The army fought in Europe. The rivalrey makes sense because army and marines is like big brother vs little brother. We love each other to death but we have our own way of getting things done. The marines earned every piece of what they’re known for. You are very misleading and aren’t very honest, with that said, the army is very well too. Marines adapt and overcome, while the army can attack full front and do damage, the marines are much smaller and can do the critical hits, similar to special operations, but as a conventional force. Don’t even get me started on spec ops though.
“The marines and navy won the war in the pacific.
The Pacific War had two theaters, Central Pacific and Southwest Pacific. After Guadalcanal and Cartwheel, the Southwest Pacific was an Army Theater. Soldiers defeated the Japanese in New Guinea and then liberated the Philippines.
Army Divisions fought in the Central Pacific. Army Divisions played crucial roles in the capture of the Marshall Islands(7th Infantry Division captured Kwajalein, the largest and most heavily defended island in the Marshalls. It was not the least heavily defended island in the Marshalls as some Marine Historians have claimed(Aaron B; O’Connell in Underdogs). The much maligned 27th Infantry Division was sent ashore on Saipan because, after 2 days of fighting, 2nd and 4th Marine Divisions had taken thousands of casualties and had been stopped cold. The 77th Infantry Division landed on Guam because the III Amphibious Corps attack(3rd Marine Division and 1st Provisional Marine Brigade) had stalled.The 81st Infantry Division landed on Peleliu because the 1st Marine Division lost about 1/3 of its strength as casualties as a result of CG William Rupertus ordering the Marines to make direct frontal assaults on Japanese Defense positions which were impregnable to frontal attack. 1st Marine Division had to be withdrawn and 81st Infantry Division completed the conquest. So far as Okinawa, Soldiers, not Marines, did most of the fighting. 7th, 27th 77th abd 96th Infantry Divisions fought on Okinawa. 1st and 6th Marine Divisions fought. The Army troops were up against the main Japanese Defenses for the entire campaign. The Marine Divisions spent the first part of the campaign over running the undefended Northern part of the Island.
The statement, “The marines and navy won the war in the pacific.” is not exactly correct.
You have to remember that Marine units were sacrificed, under supplied, or left to die by the Navy support. At Guadalcanal the Navy was beaten by the Japanese leaving Marines stranded and under supplied on the island for months, at Tarawa the marines were basically sacrificed in the thousands to take a completely irrelevant island, in the Peleliu campaign the marines ran out of water, food, and sometimes ammunition because of how hard it was to get supplies throughout the island and the terrain. Its easy to say the army finished the job because the came in the 4th quarter after both the marines and Japanese had been slaughtering each other for weeks. Okinawa was largely an Army effort because the Corps had been fighting tooth and nail with the Japanese and some units were completely diminished. My grandfather was on Okinawa so I know it was truly the main victory point for Army in Pacific while Marines was Iwo.
The Marines are so stupid. First if all guard duty is for pussies, right down the Marines ally. Second the Marines don’t have as many numbers as the Army not because they are elite but because there are less Marine bases than Army Post duhhhh. Marines have to travel with their boyfriends the Navy therefore need to be close to water whereas the Army can be stationed and spread out across the nation, it has nothing to do with the Marines being elite.
You said it Clifton Barton… wow, that GED really paid off. In no less than 80 words you made yourself sound more ignorant than a sack of meat with eyeballs. Those of you reading this worthless blog, pay heed to Clifton’s words… he’s likely the backbone of the Army these days.
I’m a Marine, Romeo 5/10 2nd Mar Div Camp Lejeune, NC,1989-1995. Two wartime tours and 12 CS chamber tours (LOL). I also have a buddy who is Army, serving around the same dates. We have discussed our different training and I and he can tell you right now, Marine Corp training is more intense, right down to how far we are trained to accurately fire an M16. Our amphibious training and our anti terrorism training. I have much respect for the Army but it is simply not the same training. If it were, I would uphold the integrity of a Marine and say so but it is not. One of the most noticeable difference I have seen as far as our training, compared to the Army, is our discipline. I was once at Fort Bragg during a training exercise and I watched an officer sitting and having lunch with an enlisted man, smoking and joking. This simply does not happen in the Corp. You address officers when addressed. Marines are trained by these simply rules (besides our general orders) and we guard them with the upmost integrity: You never relinquish or leave your weapon unattended, you never leave any man behind, one shot/one kill (it is standard training to accurately fire 500 yards) and most importantly, always speak with integrity. Marines run 3 miles ever morning before chow. Yes there are Army personal who may and can but it is standard practice for a marine. Force Recon does so much more. We train amphibiously and not just being thrown into the deep end of the pool and told to float. Try strapped into a helo shell and submerged in dark icy waters then released to make it to the surface. It is not as easy as one might think. Like I said, I admire any man or woman of service but to rob a Marine of his heritage or integrity, well . . . those are fighting words. Not everyone can wear Dress Blues, only the few, the proud . . . you know the rest.
Just 3 miles? Wow, even in an armor batt we used to 6-8 on short run days and 8-10 on long run days. You guys had it easy…
We should run a Mythbusters episode comparing combat Marines to combat Soldiers. You armchair warriors can come watch in your lawn chairs. I would suggest using the old Marines Combat Conditioning Course as a warm up event (full armor, rifle, gas mask, combat load equivalent, 3 mile run + obstacles), then M16 variant qualification, M9 qualification, while in full gear. After this a WSQ swim qual in full gear, rubber rifle. Following this a squad weapon proficiency package and an explosives package (grenades/claymores/trip flares/etc). Following this a night time infiltration package consisting of land navigation skills of compass, nav by stars, and gps. As the infiltration package continues add mock enemy actors, grenade stumps, live fire, cs gas, razor wire, and other obstacles. Add combat portion assault, ambush, care for wounded/evac, call for fire, suppression, and final evacuation. The next day devote to a combat town in the style of Fallujah exercise which focuses on phase lined assault, ied mitigation, enemy combatant identification, rules of engagement, effective communication with local population, enemy tactics, covering fire, call for fire, house clearing, immediate actions to various enemy contact, effective communication of target locations, avoiding friendly fire, caring for wounded friendly/civilian/enemy, and close combat martial arts.
To make it more interesting I would pull the Marines and Soldiers from support units. All skills listed are entry level skills in the Marine Corps. How and individual learns and conducts these various skills with intensity and attention to detail is a measure of the individual and he who trained them. You learn a lot about an individual or a military unit just by observing how the young conduct themselves during training as well as the trainer.
Being well trained and disciplined has always made for better results than well equipped and complacent. Let’s see who performs better either right out of the box, or 10 to 20 years in.
Your information is incorrect. The marine corps was indeed around during the revolutionary war. In fact they were fighting even before we had an army. Check the facts and back up your bs, the at and marine corps both rely on each others efforts to get the mission accomplished. It is on equal parts the difference would be the discipline, intensity, and marksmanship that sets the two apart.
The US Army was founded in June 1775. The Corpse was founded in November 1775. So no, the Army was around for longer. I think you need to stop reading from the Goebbels-Stalin Sponsored Ministry of Propaganda.
The Continental Marine Corps was established on Nov. 10, 1775. At the time of its establishment there were no Marines. They had yet to be recruited.
The Continental Army was established on June 14, 1775. The Continental Army was a force in being. The troops who formed the Continental Army had fought the Battles of Lexington and Concord, had established the siege of Boston, had fought the Battle of Bunker Hill, and had invaded Canada, all before the Continental Marine Corps came into existence.
The Marine MEU hasn’t been in use for First Strike since the 1980s. It’s been the Airborne Forces that have adapted better. They are the Real First to Fight.
The Marine MEU can be stopped if the opposing Navy has a Nuclear Submarine in the waters.
General Pershing said the Best Soldier in the World was a Marine because he was in fact a Soldier doing Marine Landings and the Army had the same Job at the time that the Corps has now.
Marines like to think they can but its not the Marines who is the Best. It’s the Army.
Wrong. Historically the MEU had Force Recon Marines who would have been jump trained and qualified at Fort Benning and additionally would have HAHO and HALO capabilities.
Ever wonder why, prior to Prior to the War Powers act, only the Marine Corps could be deployed without an congressional approval on order of the president? Ever wonder why the Russian Army showed videos to their infantry showing Marines crawling through fire in order to get into combat? Ever wonder why the first special operation on foreign soil was conducted by 8 Marines and 2 Navy Corpsman? Ever wonder why the nation’s battle cry has been ‘send in the Marines’ for over 200 years? Did you know that the Marine Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion was in the water and on the beaches, and other, potential landing areas, before the Army/Allied Forces on D-day in over 150 missions?
Most of what I referenced herein came well before highly circulated news and would have been nearly impossible to pull off as a feat of PR.
No matter which branch, thank you for your service.
Fake news. You show no proofs. Keep eating crayons jarhead.
LOL I WAS A MARINE 80’S 90’S 2000’S 5 MOS’S INCLUDING RECON FORCE SC SNIPER TRAINED JUMPS . I HAVE BEEN AROUND WORKED WITH SERVICES ALL OVER THE WORLD WITH OUR ALLIES SAS BRIT ROYAL MARINES AUSTRALIAN COMMANDOS SOUTH KOREAN MARINES . SK ARMY PHILIPPINE MARINES SOME SERIOUSLY BAD ASS PAKIS ETC ETC I HAVE SEEN RUSSIAN COMMANDOS , SPETZ DURING THE SUPPOSED COLD WAR WHERE WE HAD TEAM SPIRT , BEAR HUNT EXERCISES AND MANY MORE ,. LOST MANY GOOD BROTHERS IN A FUCKING BARRACKS LEFT BY THE POLITICAL ASSHOLES HERE IN THE MIDDLE OF TERROR CENTRAL WHEN IT ALL STARTED BACK IN THE EARLY 80’S ALL BACKED BY IRAN WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THAT SHIT AND HEZBOLLAH AND WE WERE LEFT TO SIT UNCHAMBERED AS A FUCKING POINTLESS DEFENSE LINE THAT WAS THE MOST STUPID FUCKING IDEA FOR U.S MARINES TO BE PUT IN AS PEACE KEEPERS WHERE THE EXPLOSION WAS GOING TO COME AND KNOWING WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE AS ENEMY OCCUPUYING FORCE NOWHERE NEAR THE RIGHT DEFENSIVE EQUIPMENT . MARINE COMMANDERS SCREAMING TO WASHINGTON THAT SHIT WAS GOING TO HIT HUGE AND IGNORED BY WASHINGTON ASSHOLES TILL THAT TRUCK CIRCLED AND FLOORED INTO THE BLDG AND A LOAD MORE OF RUSSIANS , THEY AINT FUCKING AROUND LIKE THIS SHIT ON HERE HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THAT YOU THINK THAT AIRBORNE TOOK OVER FOR THE MEU’S MAGTF AND MEF’S? LOL YOU ARE A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A FUCKING GUM FLAPPING MORON. YOU KNOW JACK SHIT ., ONE TOUR WONDER–IF THAT ? JUST ANOTHER LOUD MOUTH THAT BUYS INTO THIS CHILDISH BULLSHIT !! READING 90 PERCENT OF THESE ALL BASED ON A COMPLETE ASSHOLES PERS[PECTIVE OF IGNORANCE AND BS COMMENTS IS A FUCKING!! DISGRACE TO ALL OUR SERVICES!! GROW UP AND WAKE UP. IF OUR ENEMIES IN THE WORLD TODAY READ THIS SHIT IT WILL ONLY BOLSTER THEIR CONFIDENCE IN A DIVIDE AND CONQUER ATTACK. WE AS A NATION OF A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF MIL / VETS HAD BETTER REALIZE THE CHINESE AND RUSSIANS FEED OFF OF THIS SHIT AND THEY HAVE BEEN IN EXERCISES TOGETHER OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS IN BOTH CHINA AND RUSSIA ,.. AND STUPID SHIT LIKE ALL THIS . “MY MOMMY SAYS WE WERE BETTER THAN YOU AND YOUR MOMMY IS A CHILDISH STUPID BUNCH OF CRAP. IRAN, CHINA N KOREA RUSSIA AND A SHITLOAD MORE WOULD LOVE NOTHING MORE THAN A SCENARIO OF STUPIDI NFIGHTING ,..EVEN IF WE KILLED 400 MILLION CHINESE THEY WILL STILL FAR OUTNUMBER OUR ENTIRE POPULATION . . DOES ANYBODY REALLY FEEL COVID VIRUS AND VARIANTS WAS A FUCKING MISTAKE?? DO SOME INDEPTH READING ON HOW MANY TIMES CHINES HAVE BEEN CAUGHT BRINGING IN POTENTIAL KILLERS INTO OUR COUNTRYT AS WE LEAVE THE DOORS WIDE OPEN FOR THEM TO ENTER . READ UP ON WHAT BEEN CAUGHT NY TSA, FBI BORDER PATROL, FROM SOUTH AND NORTH . EAST WEST . THEN MAYBE SOME ON HERE WILL WAKE THE FUCK UPO AND STOP THIS STUPID SHIT . IT IS AN EMBARASSMENT TO OUR SKILSS AS WARRIORS TO READ THIS . YEAH MOSTL;Y FROM REAR GEAR ASSHOLES THATS OBVIOUS FROM MOST COMMENTS OR YOUNG PUNK BOOT IDIOTS THAT THINK THETY ARE THE BEST AND HAVENT DONME SHIT COME BACK IN 30 YEARS AND TELL US AGAIN HOW GREAT YOU ARE AND EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS . . GO READ SOME TRUE HISTORY OR IF YOIU WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK TO A REAL WW2 WARRIOR . AS I HAD SEVERAL FROM MARINES AND ARMY DEATH MARCH . OR MARINE SO UNDERSUPPLIED THEY FOUGHT WITH FUCKING K BARS AND KILLED JAPS WITH THEM AS THEY WENT UP ASGAINST FULLY SUPPLIED JAPS WITH THEIR FUCKING KBARS –AND KILLED THODE LITTLRE BASTARDS !! NO FOOD NO WATER AN OLD HERO VET MARINE SHOWED ME PICS UNIFORMS TATTERED TO SHIT BOOTS WITH NO SOLE LEFT WRAPPED IN A SHEET AROUND BOOTS . FOR THEIR FEET . THE TRUTH OF REAL FUCKING WARRIORS FROM ALL THOSE MARINES AND ARMY UNITS , THESE WERE FUCKING MEN !! THESE WERE SUCK IT UP AND KILL THE ENEMY ANY WAY WE CAN HOD THE GROUND . HAND TO HAND THEY BIT EARS OFF . FINGERS . BEAT THE JAPS TO DEATH WITH HELMETS !!! MEN OF WAR THAT FOUGHT FOR OUR NATION WITH TEETH AND KBARS , SO ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT THAT IS CHILDISH AND STUPID . EVER HEAR DIVIDE AND CONQUER –BECAUSE I GUARAHTEE OUR ENEMIERS WOULD LOVE READING THIS SHIT IF YOU THINK THE CHINESE AND RUSSIA N KOREA . ETC ARE PUSHOVERS YOU DAMN WELL BETTER THINK AGAIN AND READ BACK HOW THEY FOUGHT AND CUT OFF THE NAZIS IN SIBERIA AND EASTERN FRONT WITH HORSES AND SINGLE SHOT OLD ASS RIFLES , THOSE ARE THE ONES YOU NETTER KEEPO AN EYE ON INSTEAD OF TALKING SHIT ABOUT OUR OWN MIL. EVERY DAY THE CHINESE , RUSSUIANS AND OTHERS ARE LOOKING ATR WAYS TO TAKE US IUT THAT WILL NEVER GO AWAY , SHIT LIKE THIS 3RD GRADE HE SAID BULLSHIT ON HERE DOES NOTHING MORE THAN BOLSTER AN ALREADY WELL PREPARED AND HIGHLY TRAINED MASS OF ENEMY FORCES . THAT WOULD LOVE TO SEE US IMPLODE FROM WITHIN TO MAKE THEIR MOVE , CHINA MAKES NO HIDING OF THE FACTS THEY WANT TO BE THE NUMBER 1 CURRENCY IN WORLD AND THANKS TO THGE TRADE IMBALANCE THAT TREUMP GFINALLY STUCK THEM IN A HOLE ONLY TO HAVE CHINA JOE LIFT IT ALL IN HIS COLLUSION WITH THE CHINESE . WE LEAD THE CHINESE OIUT OF THE STOINE AGE AND NOW THEY HAVE THE MOST MODERNIZED WEAPONRY ON THE PLANET AND MIL EXERCISES EXPANDING EVER FURTHER OUT EACH TIME SAND IN RUSSIA . . SO ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT ON HERE AND REMEMBER WHO OUR ENEMIES ARE . .SOME IDIOT WRITES THE MOST STUPID SHIT SAND HE GETS WHAT HE WANTED –THIS CHILDISH BACK AND FORTH. ITS A DISGRACE TO ALL MIL / VETS —IN ALL OUR HISTORY . OF MILITARY FORCES .
Wow….why don’t all you guys just stop being fucking children and just stand along side your countrymen and fight when necessary? And if you don’t fight then fuck off and write about other things more specific to your personal cause.
100 % WITH YOU ON THAT STATEMENT !! THIS IS RIDICULOUS !!! CHILDISH AND STUPID . .
A little jealous sounds like. I was in both branches from early 80s to early 90s, went Army first and then Marines, so yes, went thru Army basic and Marine Corps boot camp. Active duty in both and honorable discharge from both, also overseas duty in both. I have friends in both I still stay in contact with. Both branches have their pros and cons, but hands down the Marines are tougher and more traditional. I have first hand experience and facts are facts. Btw, I was Infantry in both.
Did you serve in war jarhead? Which Army units did you serve with? Sorry but some jarhead that has never deployed you are not a subject matter expert. You served during the Cold War. Why did you not go into a SOF unit to actually do something with your jarhead skill sets? We all know you jarheads loves crayons, especially the red ones.
Hahaha this is absolute silliness… The author is either lacking from a proper education of historical facts or suffering from a severely blinding bias (maybe both). There are some serious distortions of facts, holes purposely created with details left out and flat out falsehoods in this article.
The Marine Corps was born November 10, 1775. The Continental Congress came down with the word to raise two Battalions of Marines. The Army already existed but I guess Congress saw a need for a separate force; one that wasn’t called the Army. Marines fought during the Revolutionary war, not sure where the author suffered lack of insight to this fact.
From being formed for only 5 months, in March of 1776 Marines conducted an assault on Nassau capturing arms and munitions. January of 1777 Marines joined with George Washingtons continental Army and helped defeat the British at the battle of Princeton.
From the get go in reading this article the reader is seriously misinformed.
“The deadliest weapon in the World is a Marine and his rifle.”
Gen. John J. “Black Jack” Pershing US Army
“Why in the hell can’t the Army do it if the Marines can; they are all the same kind of men, why can’t they be like Marines?”
Gen. John J. “Black Jack” Pershing US Army
“Their fiery advance and great tenacity were well recognized by their opponents.”
Lt Col Ernst Otto German Army writing about US Marines 1918 Belleau Wood, France
“No one can ever say that the Marines have failed to do their work in handsome fashion”
MajGen Johnson Hagood, US Army
“I can never again see a United States Marine without experiencing a feeling of reverence.”
MajGen Johnson Hagood, US Army
If you actually do your research you will find that Marines have been praised all over the world by people of all levels. Winston Churchill, President Roosevelt, many enemy commanders, US Army, Navy commanders, the Navy Seals.
Nicely done.
Plenty of quotes from all levels that go against your quotes. Do your research jarhead. Stop eating crayons. The Corps was disbanded and reinstated into a new Corps. Been a few times that the government tried to disband the Corps but a buncha jarheads went to congress and cried about it. Jarheads are not special. Stop eating crayons.
Marines’ official response: Fuck off.
I am greatly disturbed to see inter-service rivalry be distorted into service bashing and bickering. I am proud to have served a long career with the U.S. Marine Corps, but that does not detract from my respect and admiration for my brothers and sisters in the other branches of service, to include the Army. Each branch has its customs and history, and these are things to be respected. Bravado and chest thumping at the expense of appreciating what the other branch brings to the table is deplorable. To claim that any one battlefield was any more important than another only serves as an insult to the American lives lost there.
Contrary to a few of the beliefs posted on thread, the different branches fight quite differently from each other, as they should since each has its own role to conduct. By their very nature, the Marine Corps and the Army are very different organizations, and as such, they are forced to approach warfare in different manners. The Marine Corps is small, relatively lightweight organization that is capable of providing a rapid and relatively self-sustainable option. The Army has the bulk of the military might at its disposal and is capable of delivering the decisive blow, but this is done at the expense of speed and mobility.
I feel that many of you have lost sight of what is important, and that is the fact that whether you are a Marine or Soldier, we are all Americans serving on the same side. If anyone has lost sight of that, I highly recommend that you conduct a thorough self-inspection. I would proudly fight beside Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or fellow Marine.
Outstanding article, the marine is a Soldier at heart and tries his best xD
The fighting men and women of the USA are the best in the world. But I will drink a toast at 10:00PM that’s 2200 military speak to celebrate my beloved Marine Corp’s 241st birthday tonight. I will then hit the sack and say a prayer for our nation and all that protect her. Semper Fi!
Cpl. Mehaffy USMC service from July 15th, 1963 to Oct 16, 1966
You forget that in the 241 years since the Continental Marine Corps was established there was a 15+ year interval in which no Marine Corps existed. The Continental Marine Corps was disbanded in April of 1783. The United States Marine Corps was not established until July of 1798.
Distorted history and self embellishment from a jarhead who is regurgitating the jarhead propaganda. Stop eating crayons.
The Marines are not a second army. We are a Naval service. I’d rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother in the army.
How does a Naval service find itself in the middle of a landlocked country like Afghanistan doing the exact same mission as the Army?
Signed – Sis
Simple. The US govt sent them there. AND everywhere the Marines went, the Taliban died. Unlike the Amry, which considers shooting back from your fire base as “aggressive”. Not. Marines run towards the gunfire. The army shoots back if its convenient. Big difference in the quality of the infantry units. And EVERYONE knows it.
The greatest units and true spearheads of Iraq and Afghanistan throughout the entirety of the wars were Army Special Forces. Great men to serve with, work with, and fight with. They might be arrogant, but they have earned it and are the most elite America has to offer. Besides that all the army combat units can easily be replaced by marine grunts and be more effective. 101st AB, 82nd, air cav, 10th mountain, army infantry, etc. are all war and terrain specified units that USMC infantry has been doing for one hundred years.
I began a long, detailed, fact filled, reply to your astonishingly innacurate, hateful, and ridiculous, rant. However, much like your idol, the angry little artillery major-Truman, facts are not relevant. Enjoy your ignorance, they say it is bliss.
[…] Mattis has his critics. He is accused of leaving marines to die in combat and has a reputation for feuding with other branches of the military. However, these criticisms, although valid and frightening, are not what concern me. According to […]
[…] Mattis has his critics. He is accused of leaving marines to die in combat and has a reputation for feuding with other branches of the military. However, these criticisms, although valid and frightening, are not what concern me. According to […]
The quality of the coments on this article as as bad as the article itself.
This author is a complete ignoramus. And so are the people who post here as if this “article” is a valid study. Its garbage.
The Continental Army fought with powder captured by Continental Marines at New Providence, Bahamas. So yeah, the Marines helped win the Revolution.
When the Marines captured the undefended town of New Providence in 1776 they found that the British had removed all but a small amount of powder. What the Marines captured at New Providence went to fitting out the Continental Navy, not to providing anything to the Continental Army.
I’ll tell you what, from someone who knows..In Vietnam as well as the mid-east. Its not the Army or Marines that are the badasses, its the United States NAVY.. GROUND, AIR AND SEA and theres a lot less of THEM!!!!! GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES NAVY. AS A uVIETNAM VET I SAW MORE HEROISM WITH MUCH LESS MEN, MOST WERE NOT Publicized.!!!!
Lang Vei wasn’t supported by Marine or Army, which also operated at Khe Sahn as FOB-3, as it was being over run by a mechanized unit.
Furthermore, 1st Marines and 1st Cav opened up route 9, unlike your claim of a 1st Cav rescue.
Having read many errors in the first few paragraphs, I stop reading the rest of this erroneous, “go Army” piece.
You stopped reading to look for the crayons you eat. All your facts are wrong and they are fake news. Stop eating crayons.
I’m so sick of all this crap. I was in 2/504th PIR, 82nd Airborne and we were far and away BETTER than anything the damn Marines had to throw downrange. PERIOD!
My police Academy was 18 weeks live in, ran by both formee Army and Marines.
We did PT every day, drilled, formation, etc….
Sadly, some of the candidates were former Marines talking about how “over qualified they were” to be police officers because they had been Marines.
Just more arrogance but it had become so common.
These guys could run like deer when it came to PT, but unfortunately many washed out early on because they could not perform academically.
They scored very poorly on the written tests.
Not being able to apply knowledge on the field is huge, perhaps if they were more humble and not so full of themselves they could have began a new career.
Question ..why does the navy have marines and the army have mules …..answer the ARMY got first choice !
USMC manual pack howitzer ‘If you don’t have enough mules they can be replaced by four marines.
The United States doesn’t need the Marine Corps. It wants the Marine Corps.
I’m so glad I beat the shit out of a loud mouth Marine. Fucking overrated assholes!
I’m so glad I beat the fuck out of a loud mouth Marine! Overrated assholes is what you guys are!
IM READY WHEN YOU ARE YOU LOW LIFE TRASH BAG. TRUST ME I WONT LEAVE YOU WITH A MOUTH AT ALL!! PUSSY!!.
I didn’t see the Marines as my rival (21 yrs of service in the US Army as a paratrooper) because I always viewed them as the smaller fighting force. The US military is the strongest fighting force on the planet and the US Army is the Tip of the Spear. That is not me blaring the Army horn or being disrespectful to the Navy and Marine Corps (consider Air Force as our close sister branch), but let’s not play silly games here and try to compare the two services when the US Army is significantly more advanced, larger, and more versatile given our large special operations capabilities, logistics, armor, and airborne/air assault forces.
The US Army has numerous specialized combat units that can take on virtually any mission on land, air, and even at sea if called to do so (which we have during our long history). The Marine Corps is a fantastic service branch that churn out great fighters who are extremely prideful. There is really no point in trying to say that a Soldier is “better” than a Marine or that one’s training is harder than the other’s. Those are dumb arguments and we can be honest with saying that the Marine Corps has simply been better with recruitment and public affairs, and I respect that because it is 100% true and I commend them for it. The Army is absolutely DREADFUL in the media and has been for many years because we are too busy telling potential recruits what we can do for them instead of what they can do to earn their way in to us. Marines throw around pride, honor, and challenging one’s self, while the Army waves around money and college education which is weak sauce of the highest order.
The bottom line is that the Army has the most toys and will fight in the most places. If we have a war against another nation or large force, it will be the Army that will have to do the bulk of the fighting to win the fight. That is simply the facts and all the other garbage doesn’t matter. Our history supports this fact and the makeup of the forces makes it clear. The Marine Corps are essentially force multipliers who have carved out their piece of the pie during conflicts. We are separated by nametapes on the uniforms, but we all serve the same master, so it doesn’t really matter. We have fun poking each other, but I never viewed a Marine as my rival. Marines are my fellow comrades and they have a specific purpose in the grand scheme of things and that’s about it.
well said
It is a fact that the largest part of the world’s media is controlled by right wing capitalists. Their aim is to further the cause of capitalism and increase the planet’s gap between rich and poor. Left Insider provides left wing news from reliable news sites like Left Futures, Red Pepper, Novara, The Canary, Buzz Feed, Left Foot Forward etc. Everyone has the birthright to maximise our own qualities and we all have the duty to assist others maximise theirs.
I remember as a young Marine putting army special task forces to shame as the opp force at NTC. Marines are harder and more committed. Army bases are like resorts to Marines. If the army chose to suffer like Marines they would have better. Furthermore as far as I know the frozen chosen are the only battle force ever to be fully enveloped and survive the army forces did not…..
Did the same to Marines, Bear Hunt 86. It is what it is, sometimes you eat the bear, sometime he eats you.
the pathetic usmc are pathetic propaganda scum bag losers who get their asses handed to them and have the US Army come rescue them. the list is way too long to list.starting with Guadal Canal to the present.
Great Article
The Marines can’t see that they are damaging this Country.
The Marines don’t fight at all like Soldiers
Soldiers are Humble Good People who work Hard and in many cases outwork the Marine Corps
The Marines can’t admit that Army is Good.
They have to eat up all the credit
They are always in the News and the Media thinks of them and then only when there is talk of the Military
Because to Marines. Soldiers are a joke and the Marine can’t see past his own shadow.
glad to see you are so “humble”
Kinda glossed over WWII and Korea, dintcha? These excursions in Mess-o-potamia aint REALLY ears, ‘cept to the wounded and dead, c’mon now, say it: pussy ass rules of engagement, nation building. Humph, we burned Germany and Japan TO THE GROUND! Forgot about world opinion for awhile.
Now, MacArthur lost quite a few Australian and New Zealanders in “his” army. Better include them figgers.
Guadalcanal wasn’t an island hopping campaign, it was in Mac’s SWP Theater of ops, actually. It was also, from the Leatherhead action, purely DEFENSIVE. Land on the beach, seize the airfield and establish a perimeter around it. Not very Halls of Montezumahey.
Petter cases when Marines and Army operated together. The US 27th Infantry Division at Saipan in Summer ’44 when MAC Commander lied about the heavy fighting they experienced and replaced their CG because he just couldn’t give the army credit, it would take something away from his Marines.
Then there was Chesty commanding 1st Marine Reg’t at Peleliu, his regiment suffered 70% casualtirs im six days bevause he kept them charging steep ridges; positions the “always up front” colonel NEVER reconned, because of an old infected leg wound (very true) and he didnt listen to his battalion commanders, probably cause he was promised a star by the division commander, an old buddy of the commandant.
The MAC reserve was a Army regiment, and the Marine division CG refused their deployment until the MAC CG, Roy Geiger, USMC-ordered it to save what was left of the 1st Marine Division.
I don’t even know where to begin, to say you are slanted towards the Army is an understatement, I have never read an article from someone that has so much military history completely wrong and has no idea whatsoever of the very different roles each branch of our military plays. My God it’s just pathetic how much of what you wrote is just completely wrong! You are either someone who was dropped from Marine Corps basic training as unfit for military service or former Army with a chip on his shoulder once he realized that “being all he could be” amounted to nothing but an embarrassment.
Todd, I’m borrowing from a movie here, but, “that’s a bingo, or do you just say bingo”?
The US Army is one of the world’s finest militaries and they have special operations and light infantry that equip and train for many of the same mission types as the Marines. Our tasks in the Corps are more defined and we just happen to execute very well.
Never faithful as a headline is disgraceful to the author, distasteful to any educated reader and disrespectful toward one of America’s finest fighting forces.
A decent OPINION piece. Without citations or “sources”, I say your work adds up to fabrication, assertions, and an assumption I am going to believe everything you have written about “no proof” without supplying your own.
Weak, and unimpressive.
You sound like a bitter loser. Your decisive words are the cause for this “rivavlry” to continue. My brothers and I have all served throughout the Army, Navy and Marines. Each has a specific function, each has a purpose. Don’t spout your insecurities as “documented history”. You sound ignorant, uninformed and idiotic. Get a life. Do something that matters.
The author of this article comes up short. There was no standing Army during the American Revolution. Thomas Jefferson did authorize a Navy of which the Marines were a part. As far as the US Civil War, the start of that conflict the US Army consisted of only 10 Regiments of “Regulars” by the end of that war. Most of the troops were local militias, hardly millions of US Army members. Several Army trained officers went over to the Confederacy that seem to be part of his calculation.
As a former Marine I would not take cheap shots at the Army. My great great-grandfather was an Army “regular” during the US Civil War. Veterans should have more dignity than to put each other down.
I was discharged from the USMC with a severe head injury TDRL 1990. I was paralyzed, lost my ability to speak, had blind spots et cetera. Both USN and USMC officers gave me a rating of less that 30% of my base pay. That came out to $240 per month or about $8 a day. That’s my Semper Fi story. Still along the way at the VA other vets were good to me. How does this article do any good?
“There was no standing Army during the American Revolution”.
Wrong.
The Continental Army was established on June 14, 1775, roughly 5 months before the Continental Marines Corps was established. The Continental Army was a force in being at the time it was established. The troops who formed the Continental Army had fought the Battles of Lexington and Concord, established the Siege of Boston, fought the Battle of Bunker Hill and invaded Canada all before the Continental Marine Corps was established. The Continental Marines had yet to recruit anyone when it was established. The next phase of the Revolutionary War were the Battles around New York. The only Marine Corps action between the Battle of Lexington and the Battles for New York was the raid on Nassau, an attack on an undefended objective. The Continental Navy was disbanded in 1783. The Continental Marine Corps was disbanded in April of 1783. The US Navy was established in 1794, under the John Adams administration under the the Naval Act of 1794. The US Marine Corps was not established until July of 1798. The US Navy fought the Undeclared Naval War with France before Thomas Jefferson was elected.
During the Civil War, most of the US Army was the Volunteer Army, not militias.
Yet another usmc lying and pathic bitch. Will you never end???? I hope so. Even your Navy brothers call you pathetic liars and losers. You have NO fact and you have NO truth, usmc pathetic scum bags. We shall disband you pathetic scum bags and waste of tax payer dollars.
Having two armies makes about as much sense as have two navies. Duplication of services seems to be a chronic bureaucratic and dysfunctional aspect of the United State of America’s society. There is always rhetoric and rationalizations to sustain this indulgent behaviors and narcissism of our institutions. If you create a new government entity today, it will fervently justify itself for eternity. Enough already.
“There were no Marines in the Revolutionary War?” BS. The USMC was founded 10 November 1775, which I believe predates the initial action in the US War of Independence. Get your facts right!
The Continental Army was established in June 1775, roughly 5 months before the Continental Marine Corps was established. The troops who became the Continental Army fought the Battles of Lexington and Concord, established the Siege of Boston, fought the Battle of Bunker Hill and invaded Canada all before the date the Continental Marine Corps was established. The Continental Marine Corps did not actually come into existence on the date it was established. There were no Marines. They had yet to be recruited.
Truth hurts the less than worthless usmc. So well stated on your part.
Airborne!!!!!!
It makes me raging mad when I read an article about a US military mission that has a picture of our ground forces in action. The picture clearly shows US Army soldiers but the caption says its US Marines. The marines have a great PR machine. So does the navy. The army and the air force (army roots) are modest quiet warriors.
Welcome to military news reporting for the last hundred years.
good post
Where you born an asshole or have you had to work at it?
Semper Fi, long live the Marine Corps!
Cocksucking faggots need to die
fuck you, Scott piraino! SEMPER FIDELIS!
The USMC is obsolete and the US would not be missing a major capability if the USMC were disbanded. The reason they exist is purely because they have a propaganda machine that would fill Goebbels with envy, had they not been PR conscious, they would’ve been axed after the First World War.
The fact that the Marines often have to shout from the rooftops (or embellish in some cases) their achievements and try to shit on the Army and their many great achievements proves how institutionally insecure the Marines are. Marines make big deals about every battle they go in, the Army just does the job with no bells and whistles and moves on.
The doctrinal reason for the Marines to exist, forcible entry from the sea AKA the amphibious assault is simply not feasible in 21st century warfare. Modern A2/AD defenses (SAMs, MANPADs, cyber warfare etc etc etc) mean an amphbious assault on ground held by a sophisticated enemy (China, Russia, etc) would mean the Marines wouldn’t have the chance to reach the beach. Those Osprey tilt-rotors and AAVs the Marines ride around would be torn to shreds. Things have changed a lot since Normandy on 6/6/1944 and the Pacific Theater island hopping campaigns during WW2. And, obviously, conventional amphibious assaults aren’t necessary against unsophisticated guerrilla forces or terrorist groups.
For everything else, the Army and SOCOM (Rangers, Navy SEALs, Special Forces and SFOD-Delta – MARSOC was never needed and even the Marines resisted its establishment) can do everything the Marines can, and so much more. The only thing they’re missing is organic fixed wing air support, but that could easily be changed.
Well said.
Greg Barry, CPT, IN, United States Army.
The usmc penis and balls and microscopic compared with the massive steel of the UNITED STATES ARMY. marines wimps would be destroyed in a few moments in real combat with any opposing force. For God’s sake, the whole usmc almost got completely wiped out by a few Iraqi’s with AKs at An Nasiriyah. The usmc absolutely embarrassed the USA by being such pussies there.
Good for you, my man.
The USMC has a deplorable combat record.
Wow. Very disappointing to see the blue on blue above especially given that sub 1% of today’s US population has ever served in the military. Can’t imagine what it must have been like to go ashore at Normandy OR Iwo Jima. Interesting fact: More Americans were killed serving in the Air Corps during WWII than in the USMC during that period. I remain proud of the EGA still emblazoned upon my left arm and I am proud to have been in the company of the Soldiers I served with during a couple of my tours in Iraq. Pretty sure that Scold and usvalor DOR’d at the recruiting office. Semper Fi and best wishes to all that have served.
Wings level,
Stewy
For anyone to say that a soldier is “Better” just because he is a Marine OR because he is in the Army is nonsense. Soldiers in all the branches of service have brave troops. Although when I was about to enter the service myself, an older fellow who had been a Marine during WW2 and fought in the Pacific advised me to NOT join the ” Damn Marines” because he said during the war his commanders “Wasted” hundreds of lives from ordering the men out in the open in frontal assults and the Japanese cut them down like chaf. He had no choice to being a Marine, he was drafted and assigned to the Marine Corp. His assessment was that the Marine Corp. reputation is built on the senseless slaughter of their own men. I decided that I want no part of getting killed so the Marines could use me for their propaganda.
.. apparently you never heard of Omaha beach? The Ardennes offensive? The Kasserine Pass? All serious military fuck ups and slaughter fests by way of the US Army- the Marine Corps does not hold the title of getting men killed in combat on crap decisions
You mean battles the Army won against a enemy vastly superior to anything you or any marine ever fought?
I’m a civilian so take whatever I say with a grain of salt; having said that. In the year 2018, I’d always go with the Marines. I say this loving TV shows like Band Of Brothers and movies like We Were Soldiers. Indeed the Army Airborne divisions of WWII were some of the finest fighting men our country has ever put into battle.
Looking back on newsreels from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, I fail to see any real difference between the Army and The Marines other than the fact that the Army’s role is much more varied than the role of the Marines. The Army Rangers of WWII took upon the job of storming the beaches (a job that could easily go to The Marines) and carried it out with professionalism paving the way for the rest of invasion. If not for Lyle Bouck holding the line at The Battle of the Bulge, in all likelihood, the Germans would’ve succeeded at least on the tactical level. The US Army might not have been the first force sent to Vietnam, but they were the first to see significant action; the Air Cavalry Division fought a NVA force that outnumbered them at least 2.5 to 1 at The Battle of the Ia Drang Valley and by the most impartial standpoint, easily beat the NVA. The US Armored divisions of the Gulf War remained unchallenged by the Iraqi tanks. These are the days of the past sadly.
So what happened? My hypothesis is that The Marines stayed the same where the Army chose to evolve with the times. The modern Marine Corps sells itself as a fighting force, whereas the modern Army sells itself as an educative force. A force that caters to those who don’t really like fighting all to much. The same thing happened to Martial Arts dojos all over the country; traditional Karate schools watered down the curriculum so that anyone could get their black belt. In doing so, they sacrifice the commitment to excellence that needs to be there. At 18 years of age, I had absolutely no interest in joining the Military other than to see action. If the Army wishes to go back to the glory days, then they will start churning out quality soldiers; until that moment in time. I will always side with The Marines.
The reason why the Marines didn’t participate in the Normandy invasion was because they were both tasked out to separate theaters of the campaign. The Pacific was given mainly to Marines and Europe was a majority Army
Wrong look up the real facts jarhead. Keep eating crayons.
The difference between the Army and the Marines are their basic thinking, approach to war. Before World War II, the Marines were our experts on counter insurgency warfare. In the so called Banana Wars, they learned the basic lessons in stopping insurgents and nation building. The Manual they wrote from those experiences ‘Small Wars’ is still relevant. They are an expeditionary force.
The army is meant for large scale battles against organized national forces of the enemy. From West Point to the Pentagon, they think in terms of the big battle, the giant clash. They consider counter insurgency beneath them. That’s why the Generals who insisted on counter insurgency in Iraq were ostracized by their peers.
The Indian wars could be considered counterinsurgency, but the army won those by methods that would be considered war crimes today. Not practicle.
In Vietnam, Marine Lt. Gen. Krulak got into a heated argument with with Army General Westmoreland.
The Marines wanted to conduct counter insurgency operation in the classic form. Secure the safety of civilian population, establish stability. Once the Vietnamese felt safe, they would turn away from the Viet Cong. This is what the Marines and the British learned from small wars in such regions.
Westmoreland wanted to use firepower to kill up so many Viet Cong (which he couldn’t identify) until the enemy main force would come out and fight a Battle of the Bulge like fight.
The two men argued until Westmoreland yelled “Your way will take too long.”
“Maybe,” Krulak replied, “But your way will take forever.”
And Krulak was right. The math has been done, and there was no way Westmoreland could come close the body count he wanted.
And yes, during Tet, there was a battle of the bulge desperate attack, and he Viet Cong were slaughtered. But it didn’t change anything. The Viet Cong were cannon fodder. The ‘main force’ was the NVA and they were still nice and intact.
The Army does have elite unites, paratroopers, rangers, Delta, and others, but the mind set of the army, the Generals and the majority of the officers are mentally set on a big battlefield fight. Their way of thinking is to the hammer.
The Marines, because of their traditional status as the redheaded step child, are conditioned to do more with less. Their way of thinking is to be the scalpel.
Is it always the case, no. People get competitive and egos get in the way, but the essence of each service falls back on those two points.
No proof of the jarheads being experts in counter insurgency warfare. The Rangers are the US militaries premier light infantry. This is all available information, instead of your cults propaganda. Keep eating crayons.
Sadly a lot of your assertions are both biased and designed to denigrate the USMC- it would be too lengthy to pick apart MOST of the bias.
The Army does NOT compete with the USMC for funding, and time and again Army MEDDLING in “ Dept of Navy” affairs has lead to this notion that the Army has the only land based force.
The US Army didn’t want the Marines- who even at that time were BETTER trained and prepared for beach Assaults , involved in the Normandy landings- the Army wanted the glory and even British Army Gen.
Montgomery said the American Army did a shit job and incurred too many casualties during the June 6th beachhead assault.( still Us marines WERE there-manning naval guns to help defend the beleaguered assault era)
the first battle of Fallujah was a SHIT show and the truce was to SAVE Army pride. Sadr had to go and the Marines did the job
Perfect example of Army BS? The Army backed the claim of killing civilians by US Marines Raiders unite in Bati Kat in Afghanistan , and overturned the findings of damn near criminal negligence of Army leadership at the Battle of Wanat which a Marine general outlined.
The Marines mission is still a first strike over the horizon combat force of light infantry, in a Marine Expeditionary Unit; you do NOT see Marines bash Army rangers ( part of SOCOM-75th ranger regiment, or airborne /air assault like the 82nd or 101st)
Stop your cherry picking cause you can find a shit load of Army fuck ups ( the Ardenne offensive prior to the battle of the bulge??? kasserine Pass??? The list goes on)
The reality is that each branch of the military is ultimately a team and each needs to be focussed on their mission:
Air Force- Air dominance, bombing and surveillance, resupply of Army and Marine Corps
Navy- Command of the seas and shipping lanes, forward force projection including deployment of Marines, defense of US interests globally
Army- take and hold territory in combat with opposing forces, destruction enemy armies in combat with force and through use of its multitude of assets
Marines- forward power projection via land sea or air through rapid deployment via expeditionary combat forces to littoral areas of the world from naval ships at the behest of a naval commander or commander of the marines
And yes even the Coast Guard- protection of CONUS, search and rescue, interdiction of smuggling, fleet defense of Navy assets and combat support globally, interdiction of global piracy
Absolutely false. Jarheads fresh from boot think they are on par with Rangers and SF which is incredibly false. They are even your support jarheads such as commo or clerk that think they are better than and specialized Army unit. More jarhead propaganda. Keep eating crayons.
Finally accuracy in history. The guy who responded with you having a *pro army slant” is a hypocrite because he has one as well and no, the Army’s special ops and paratroopers were already in the heart of Afghanistan. He obviuosly doesn’t know shit about light infantry and our capabilities.
[…] balls hung during this battle. Regardless of how much certain bitches from other services like this one (please hate on his bitch ass blog) complain about the recognition the Marine Corps received from […]
Hell I was a 0311 Marine and I’ve seen jarheads who couldn’t put batteries in NVG’s or set up a claymore. Arguing over who is better army or marines is like arguing which of the 3 stooges is the smartest.
You’re full of shit buddy you better go back to school !!! It’s called history..for a reason him nots!!!!
1776, Gettysburg, Normandy, Tunisia, Italy- US Army
Iwo Jima, Wake Island, Beirut, Nasirayah, Fallujah-marines
Left wing poster angry and long winded because he lost his girl to a Marine. Oh..not to mention the fact that this whole article is so saturated with lies.. there’s enough dumbasses in the comment section that believe it that you could start youre own Marine hate filled island of libtards. This is the one site I direct people to when I want to show them an example of what a complete bs lie looks like. Not a Marine, but a civilian trainer of all branches that knows bs history barracks lawyer when I see one. OP should apologize for being a shit bird.
Make Marines Grow balls Again ehh?
I have to say, this tiff doesn’t show the better of either of the U. S. Branches. I’ve probably got more costume jewelry, facts, I was there’s, then the Marine Corps has combined in their history. I knew a Marine once, he was all Devil Dogged to change an alternator for some 2 star he was obviously sucking off. And in that land of good and plenty where all I seen was a battalion of grease monkeys that made constipated noises where they left their stain of oil, looks of downsyndrome,and a perscription pill dependency for all the action they seen when we brought our Riggs all busted up, flats, shot up and the hell they endured getting them ready so the real shooters could get back to it. I left in that land my brothers, my right leg, some intestine, but most of all the souls of my countries enemies and I would do it again. Unless those motor pool whores haven’t beaten them back with wrenches. Fuck off Marine, I will say it to your whole shitbag Corps faces, what you going to take from me other than the possibility of not owning the record for being in the company of a bunch of premadonna, dick sucking, lame ass fags at once👂👊
Lol do you really think the Marine Corps is made up of POGs? 😂😂😂
And what??? Ig the Army doesn’t have POGs?
It has plenty of jobs that arent Infantry, nice try jarhead keep eating crayons.
I would LOOOOOVE for you to say it to our faces as you say you will.with that TOUGH GUY ATTITUDE!! WELL?? . Name the place you fucking mut faced useless coward !!! Wrenches would be great for caving in your fucking head!! Do you have a fake leg–cause i would love to beat your head in with that also you know nothing stump fuck!!
Great article, is there any way I can download it?
I was at Khe Sanh when the Lang Vei Special Forces camp came under attack by NVA with PT76 amphibious tanks. We could hear the battle. We monitored their radio frequency and knew they were in deep shit! Our battalion commander, then LtCol John “Jack” C. Mitchell, didn’t have to order us to gear up. Marines were grabbing extra ammo and grenades on their own. LtCol Mitchell’s plan was to take helicopters to Lang Vei and land behind the camp and attack from the south. He proposed this plan to the base commander, Col. David Lownds. He denied permission for us to go!. We were all pissed off to high heaven!
So, in my opinion it was Lownds fault Lang Vei fell and took so many casualties.
Steven T. Perkins
GySgt, USMC, (Medically Retired)
9025 Pendleton Pike
#120
Indianapolis, IN 46236
773-886-0556
Semper Fi,
Marines!
Marines didn’t fare well in Beirut, Lebanon either. Caught with their pants down like Great Santini.
Did you seriously just use a fucking terrorist where 241 US SERVICE MEMBERS died, as result of truck bombs. But as long as they were Marines dying, it’s okay?
YOU MAKE ME WANT TO SLIT YOUR FUCKING THROAT’
fu marine whore! The obvious solution is to get rid of the militarily non-effective US marine branch of the US military, which has a largely made up/stolen military history, We must supplant the marines as they are parasites of the other valid US service branches. QED
Marines have had an inferiority cimolex in regards to the army for 60 years- after all they get the best toys! The Army has been jealous of the Marines because they have a more clearly defined tradition and focus ; and as a result there is a lot of (usually) good natured inter service humor that is kicked about.
But It Sounds like a lot of butthurt people on here that don’t really know the difference between the services and what they are actually designed to do. There is a reason that the two are very different and not integrated “because they do the same thing”. The fact is they don’t. Marines don’t have the capability to accomplish the mission parameters that the Army has to meet, nor can the Army do what the Marines are designed to do. The great failure both have is hubris to think they can.
Clearly this author is a bit of a jealous tool. You don’t make one look better by knocking down the other. You must acknowledge the differences and see the brilliance in both when they are being used by design. As a Marine I thank my friends in the Army and Navy, and still love the Corps, but perhaps I can do this because I can see the difference in operational capability and purpose. Everyone should try and do the same before chest thumping and spouting tired old claims and tropes.
finally, a post from someone who doesn’t come across like a WWF performer
Sooooo… your saying that the Marine Corps is LARGER than the Army??? And as for “unfair” advantages, how about the Army’s budget? God knows if we had a budget like the Army’s, we wouldn’t be getting the Army’s hand-me-downs.
#fakenews
Why would you get a budget like the Army when you are smaller. Doesn’t make much sense jarhead. Jarheads are losing , Infantry, Rotary, Armor and some other things. They are shrinking the cult because its been bloated and has used its propaganda and stolen history to over represent itself. keep eating crayons.
Author must be Army. I see the jealousy and vitriol musings as clear indication of that. He obviously did not do his research. Starting with 1775 to the present. Where do I start? I have worked with both Army and Marine Corps. We don’t have 2 Armies. We have soldiers and we have Marines. Just like we have boys and we have men. John Basilone left the Army to be a Marine, because he wanted to do something “tough”. The world knows the Marines. They have a reputation for their bravery not their talk. That’s all this article was. All talk. Semper Fi
fu scum bag marine whore; read the whole article and All the responses you moron. Your marine whore Emotion does NOT convince any rational human being. Frankly, you are an emotional woman.
No moron, the author of this fine and factually substantiated article is a great US navy vet as am I.
Wrong the Continental Marines, which are the real Marines not you imposter jarheads we have now with their fabricated history had been disbanded. The Army has had the continual succession of being an actual legitimate branch of the US since its inception.
The obvious solution was: not to downsize the Army. The need to “merge the Corps with the Army” was brought about by shortsighted reduction of the Army.
A merger of the Corps and Army would necessitate the training of all Army personnel in Naval policies, rank structure, and functional operations including combat processes. This would be extremely costly and arduous, for such a small naval attachment.
Each military arm has its “thing.” The Marines and Army do not belong together.
fu scum bag marine whore; read the whole article and All the responses you moron. Your marine whore Emotion does NOT convince any rational human being. Frankly, you are an emotional woman.
“fu scum bag marine whore” ≠ emotion ? : /
Why would a bigger force have to learn about the smaller force stuff. Its actually the other way around buddy. Jarheads would have to learn about Army policies, rank structure and functional operations. Keep eating red crayons, many jarheads had claimed it is delicious.
“A merger of the Corps and Army would necessitate the training of all Army personnel in Naval policies, rank structure, and functional operations including combat processes. ”
Marines do not learn Naval policies, rank structure, and functional operations including combat processes. Marines learn USMC rank structure, polices and functional operations. Which are all ground combat focused.
You have NO idea what you’re talking about.
More than likely, merging any of the branches of service would result in them being brought in line with Army Doctrine as it is the largest branch of service with the largest portion of the DoD’s annual budget. That’s how these things work. The larger entities cannibalize the smaller ones.
The obvious solution is to get rid of the militarily non-effective US marine branch of the US military, which has a largely made up/stolen military history, We must supplant the marines as they are parasites of the other valid US service branches. QED
Attack on Camp Bastion: The Destruction of VMA-211
BY JOHN D. GRESHAM – SEPTEMBER 20, 2012
VMA-211 Harrier sortieU.S. Marine Corps Capt. Kevin T. Smalley, AV-8B Harrier pilot, Marine Attack
Squadron 211, Marine Aircraft Group 13, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing (Forward), launches at Camp Bastion,
Helmand province, Afghanistan Sept. 1, 2012. VMA-211 lost six of its Harriers destroyed and two damaged
in a Taliban attack on Camp Bastion. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Sgt. Keonaona C. Paulo
Late on Friday, Sept. 14, 2012, a Taliban insurgent force of sappers carried out an attack on Camp
Bastion, the NATO ISAF base in Afghanistan, resulting in the worst loss of U.S. airpower in a single
incident since the Vietnam War. Two Marines, including VMA-211’s commanding officer, were killed in the
attack, and nine other personnel (eight military and one contractor, reportedly) were wounded. By the
time the base was secured roughly five hours later, six U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) AV-8B+ Harrier “jump
jets” had been destroyed, and two more “significantly” damaged. In addition, three refueling points
were destroyed, and six “soft-skinned” aircraft hangers were damaged to some degree. As a result of
this attack, the air strength of Marine Attack Squadron 211 (VMA-211 – “The Avengers”) presumably 10
aircraft, was almost completely destroyed.
Camp Bastion is a British-run ISAF base in Helmand Providence northwest of Lashkar Gah, built adjacent
to Camp Leatherneck (the primary USMC base in the area) and Camp Shorabak (run by the Afghan National
Army). Equipped with a 3,500-meter (11,482 foot) runway and servicing up to 28,000 personnel, it is the
largest British base in Afghanistan. One of them, on Sept. 14, was an AH-64 Apache crewman named
Capt.“Wales,” otherwise known as Harry, Prince of Wales. Along with the British Apaches and other U.K.
aircraft, Camp Bastion also provides basing for USMC aviation units, including VMA-211, the only
Harrier squadron then in Afghanistan.
Whatever the organizational outcome, the Sept. 14, 2012 attack on Camp Bastion is arguably the worst
day in USMC aviation history since the Tet Offensive of 1968. The last time VMA-211 was combat
ineffective was in December 1941, when the squadron was wiped out during the 13-day defense of Wake
Island against the Japanese.
The attack on Camp Bastion began at around 10:00 p.m. local time, when about 20 Taliban fighters
approached the perimeter, disguised in U.S. battle dress uniforms. One of the Taliban used his
explosive suicide vest to blow a hole in the perimeter fence, which reportedly allowed three five-man
sapper squads into the secured areas of the base. Armed with AK-47s, RPG-7s and explosive suicide
vests, the Taliban fighters flooded into the U.S. area known as Camp Barber.
As they began to attack the flightline areas, however, the RAF security force began to react within
just 12 minutes, when they established an MQ-9 Reaper UAV orbit over the camp. This was followed by the
launch of a British Apache helicopter that immediately engaged the insurgents, killing several. In
addition, the British ground security force began to fight its way toward Camp Barber over the main
runway, reportedly expending around 10,000 rounds of ammunition in the process. It took five hours to
secure the base and police up the insurgents.
Harrier, Camp Bastion shelter 659475
U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Ryan P. Eggemeyer, a plane captain with Marine Attack Squadron 211 (VMA-
211), Marine Aircraft Group 13, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing (Forward), inspects an AV-8B Harrier within a
soft-skinned aircraft shelter before flight at Camp Bastion, Helmand province, Afghanistan Sept. 1,
2012. Eggemeyer was conducting pre-flight checks before launching the aircraft. U.S. Marine Corps photo
by Sgt. Keonaona C. Paulo
When the sun rose the next day, the deadly cost of the Taliban raid began to be seen. Fourteen of the
15 insurgent sappers were killed, along with two of their support force outside the fence. One
insurgent was wounded and captured, and is providing useful information on this latest “Green on Blue”
Taliban attack. The Allied casualties, however, are proving heartbreaking. Killed during the attack
were Lt. Col. Christopher “Otis” K. Raible, USMC (the commander of VMA-211) and Sgt. Bradley W. Atwell
(from Marine Air Logistics Squadron 13), both based at Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) Yuma, Ariz.
Maj. Gen. Gregg Sturdevant, USMC, commander of Marine Aircraft Wing Three (Forward), has announced that
replacements for the lost aircraft and personnel will be “brought forward,” suggesting VMA-211 will be
reconstituted in place. While VMA-211’s executive officer, Maj. John “Strut” Havener, USMC, has been
named the interim squadron commander, it is possible another Harrier squadron will be deployed and the
Avengers returned to their home base at MCAS Yuma. The only “good” news about the attack was that
Prince Harry was unharmed. He appears to have been one of the targets of the Taliban attack (his
birthday was Sept. 15), and was taken to a “safe area” of the base and given extra security.
Whatever the organizational outcome, the Sept. 14, 2012 attack on Camp Bastion is arguably the worst
day in USMC aviation history since the Tet Offensive of 1968. The last time VMA-211 was combat
ineffective was in December 1941, when the squadron was wiped out during the 13-day defense of Wake
Island against the Japanese. Eight irreplaceable aircraft (the AV-8B has been out of production since
1999) have been destroyed or put out of action – approximately 7 percent of the total flying USMC
Harrier fleet. Worse yet, the aircraft involved were the AV-B+ variant equipped with the APG-65 radar
and AAQ-28 Litening II targeting pods – the most capable in the force. Given the current funding
situation, it’s likely that the two damaged AV-8Bs will become spare parts “hangar queens” and never
fly again. A Harrier squadron commander is dead, along with another Marine. Another nine personnel have
been wounded, and the nearby Marines at Camp Freedom are now without effective fixed-wing air support.
The USMC’s response to this disaster will be a telling report card on its leadership and organizational
agility.
Wow, looks like all marine officers and NCOs should in prison for stupidity, does it not?
I guess it is very good news for the American taxpayer that the USMC is being effectively disbanded in recent months. Thank the Lord above these frauds will affectively be no longer.
Well, comparing Marines and Army is like comparing apples and oranges. I have been a Marine, and I have been a soldier in the Us Armed Forces. These two branches have different missions to achieve the same end goal. It would be like asking why don’t we make AAV-7s into tanks. It is not their purpose
Not really. Nothing you said makes any sense. Jarheads have a fabricated history and have thus been bloated to expand this cult. Well the American taxpayer is having it no more. Jarheads are getting rid of some of its Infantry, rotary, bridging and all of its tanks. I hope it loses its artillery and mortars and all land based equipment. Jarheads should just always be at sea for most of their careers and hardly ever seeing home. The Corps since inceptions was always designed to conduct maritime operations, very limited land raids, ports raids mainly. It has embellished its reputation and often times straight up lying to gain notoriety and thus have gained things that it was never destined to get or supposed to get. The cult called the Corps should always remain a permanent maritime only force. Taking over enemy ships and enforcing maritime standards.
For all of those U.S. Marines and their supporters, I dare ask you these questions. How many U.S. Army veterans who have become President of the United States of America? Can you also read the biographies of these U.S. Army veteran soldiers before you reply to my comment. There are more than twenty of them so please take your time. Also to be clear. We are called the United States Armed Forces, or also called U. S. Armed Services. There is the Military Forces, which comprise of the U.S. Army National Guard, the U.S. Regular Army and the U.S. Army Reserve Component. The United States Army National Guard, the oldest branch in our armed forces, also once upon a time called the Minuteman Militia. Militia as in “Military”. The U.S. Airforce use to be a part of the military air forces until they separated and formed their own branch, the U.S. Air Force. Then we have the Naval Forces, which comprise of the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps. And last, we have the Coast Guard Forces. Can you also name the second and third best Marine Corps in the world since you claim that you’re the best?
[…] https://thepopulist.wordpress.com/never-faithful-the-rivalry-between-our-army-and-marines/ […]
Still true today, Marines are so full of themselves
It ain’t bragging if it’s true. Just sayin
i’ve known enough marines to know it ain’t.
You aren’t seriously trying to compare ned almond to O.P. Smith are you?
It’s quite possible that when general miley finishes transforming the army into a woke social program, advancing officers who hold the “correct” political views and generally establishing policies that cannot help but render the force harmless, the Marine Corps might be needed. You know, just in case we need to fight a war against an enemy that truly could not care less about “pronouns” and other such nonsense.
General Miley, Lt Col Vindman, Beau Bergdahl, that Manning lunatic who became a chick at Leavenworth. These are just a few of the army’s greatest hits.
I don’t mean to be insulting, but whoever wrote this, one, has no concept of the capabilities of the Marine Corps nor apparently of the army. Every Marine is a trained rifleman, the army requires about 4000 support personnel for 1000 guys pressing triggers.
Maybe it would be better to eliminate the army than the Marine Corps.
Furthermore “irregardless” is not nor has it ever been a word in the english language. (More evidence of the intellectual prowess of your average army officer.)
“Every Marine is a trained rifleman, the army requires about 4000 support personnel for 1000 guys pressing triggers.”
USMC has 9000 support personnel to every 1000 infantry Marine.
Author of the article uses quantitative facts to defend argument
Butthurt Marines: Here’s a bunch of propaganda quotes
It’s ironic that an article written about how the marines have an overinflated ego and sense of self through years of propaganda has hundreds of people commenting to argue the fact……with a bunch of propaganda quotes that only serve to drive home the point the article was making.
While this article is bias, it backs up it’s argument with quantitative data and historical data.
While the rebuttal from many Marines on here has been propaganda, ad hominems, and fox news headlines.
I think all branches of the US military should learn a lesson to NOT get high on their own bullshit, USMC the most though. Any Marine can tell you that the USMC has a major priorities problem. I can’t tell you how many times training, maintenance, operations, etc where put on the back burner for dog and pony show bullshit. Or how many leaders in the USMC would rather sweep problems under the rug, rather than solve them. Or get personally offended at any mention of innovation and/or improvement.
USMC is a CORPS, a CORPS is a part of a branch, not a branch. The Marine CORPS should be under the administration of another branch, Army or Navy. We are after all, “Soldiers of the Sea”.
The crayon eater jokes are all fine and good, but you start to realize how much damage stupidity causes the USMC. Administrative costs are no value add costs and there are many ways the military can cut cost so that more budget can go to training, better living conditions, etc.
When you try to explain this to Marines, they are reviled. But it’s kinda ironic they are arguing for excessive paperwork when they could have higher quality training and equipment.
Yes we can keep the dress blues, but steps like having all the armed services wearing the same cammies saves alot of money. If there’s a Marine that thinks we should spend money on our own cammies vs. more training and better equipment, then you really have to wonder if the USMC should be it’s own branch. If they value completely arbitrary customs/traditions that have no measure impact vs. measurable improvement.